Mike's Oud Forums

Making your oud sound like Abadi or FArido

SamirCanada - 10-5-2005 at 07:10 PM

I discovered something fantastic today. I never knew what people meant when they said Farido tuned a step down or half a step down.. I never knew what that meant. so today I experimented. I found how to tune a half step down. I was trying to play along Galow Tara of abadi el johar and It was soo hard to move along the strings to get to the notes. I tuned down half a step and everything came togheter. My oud (I find) sounds 100% better. Everyone should try it at least once it made my oud come alive and it reduces the overall tension so its good for your instrument. But aparently not all instruments can work with such a low tension. I heard TP21 say that farid's oud could handle a whole step down and still sound good so I guess not every oud can go a hole step down.
Tell me how the oud sounds now? I recorded this fast. You may juge my playin.. only thats not what I focused on.

revaldo29 - 10-5-2005 at 07:54 PM

Hey Samir,

You are right, it does have more of a Farid sound. Did you have to relearn all of the maqamat? It would confuse the hell out of me.

Adnan

syrianoud - 10-5-2005 at 09:39 PM

Hey Samir that sounds great , Very close to Farids oud , So if i am using a Gronograph and c4 as example should i try it to b or what do you mean by half ? just go down all of them C-C???? Thank you Samir California

samzayed - 10-5-2005 at 09:47 PM

Adnan, you don't relearn the the maqamat. You play in the same positions as if it was tuned in concert pitch. That's how they do it. Here's some proof: at Simon's retreat, Yousef Kassab sang "Awal Hamsa" accompanied by Simon and Najeeb Shaheen on ouds - one of the best performances I've ever seen. At the end, Yousef was very humble and said this song was originally in F# (Half step lower, because Farid typically tuned his oud that way), but that he sang it on G. Yousef sang it beautifully . . . The point is, just forget that the C is really a B.

A lot of classic oud players tune low. I think it gives it a nice, deep hum. I like it because it lowers the tension, and the strings feel better. It is easier to articulate, do hammer on/pull off, etc.

revaldo29 - 10-6-2005 at 04:52 AM

Hey Sam,

Thanx for the advice. I'll try it when I get home tonight. Maybe it will give me that rich arabic sound i've been looking for.

Adnan

TruePharaoh21 - 10-6-2005 at 09:06 AM

Hey guys,

Few things that I wanted to mention. I do believe that Farido used to tune down so that he would be more comfortable when he sang, though I'm not entirely sure. What is strange is that he consistently tunes down 75% of half of a step, so not quite half of a step. One would think that if it were simply done by ear, it wouldn't be as exact every time, but this is the way that I have found it to be in many of his concerts (can't say all).

Another thing... in the Nagham Fi Hayati taqsim, Farid tunes down way more than simply half a note, which is what I was trying to previously allude to without giving an actual number. I don't remember exactly how much he tuned down, but I do believe that those which would function as our high C strings were tuned on his oud as Ab! That's 2 whole steps! Definitely something to marvel at. If you've ever changed the strings on your oud, you'll see that many strings are (somewhat) much more loose if they're not at or near the note that they were designed to be at. As such, it's really a wonder how his oud could do what it did. Needless to see, he had a huge range for bass when he tuned like this, and I believe this is what truly gave the very "Arabic" sound that you have all described.

If you really feel gutsy, I guess, try tuning down to Ab on your C strings, but I do believe that the continuous loosening and retightening of strings will shorten their lifespan.

Hope all is well with everyone,

TP21

SamirCanada - 10-6-2005 at 11:48 AM

Yah it would be a gutsy move TP. The thing is that Iam not worried about the life span of the string. Its more like I wonder if they'll be under enough tension to make a sound at all.. I tried to find out what kind of strings Farid used. No mather how great his oud was, the strings we use now days I dont think would react to such a tuning since its SOO far away from what they were intended to be tuned at. Also maybe Farido tuned according to his voice like your saying maybe he had a note in his head he would sing and tune according to it. I dont think they had tuners back then... I think the first instrument to be tuned is the Kanun and everybody tunes according to it. ( I wonder how a nay would have to adjust to that but its probably technique) To tune lower is really enjoyable.. I like how it feels under the fingers. So much smother and subtile you dont have to put as much risha and its easier to control.
Beace

TruePharaoh21 - 10-6-2005 at 12:07 PM

Samir,

I think, if anything, they would tune maybe to a piano, or perhaps a tuning fork. Regardless of the fact, it has always boggled me how the ney keeps up and stays totally in tune. I'm not sure if it's technique, or if maybe the recordings over time have lost some of their original quality. And if that's the case, perhaps what we hear now isn't nearly what they heard back then. Who knows, maybe he did used to tune his oud in concert to C and not down, but we just hear it as such because the recording has lost quality. :shrug:

Still awesome stuff to hear though!

TP21

revaldo29 - 10-6-2005 at 06:18 PM

Hey all,

I tuned my oud down today, man does it sound good. Its so much easier to play and sounds so much better on certain maqamat. I've been having a hard time learning some of the notes to the Ismaa Ismaa taqassim but its just rast tuned down half a step! Thanx for the heads up samir. I'm going to try to get a quality recording up one of these days and you guys can hear how awesome this shehata. Especially now that i've lowered the tension

adnan

syrianoud - 10-7-2005 at 05:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TruePharaoh21
Hey guys,

Few things that I wanted to mention. I do believe that Farido used to tune down so that he would be more comfortable when he sang, though I'm not entirely sure. What is strange is that he consistently tunes down 75% of half of a step, so not quite half of a step. One would think that if it were simply done by ear, it wouldn't be as exact every time, but this is the way that I have found it to be in many of his concerts (can't say all).

Another thing... in the Nagham Fi Hayati taqsim, Farid tunes down way more than simply half a note, which is what I was trying to previously allude to without giving an actual number. I don't remember exactly how much he tuned down, but I do believe that those which would function as our high C strings were tuned on his oud as Ab! That's 2 whole steps! Definitely something to marvel at. If you've ever changed the strings on your oud, you'll see that many strings are (somewhat) much more loose if they're not at or near the note that they were designed to be at. As such, it's really a wonder how his oud could do what it did. Needless to see, he had a huge range for bass when he tuned like this, and I believe this is what truly gave the very "Arabic" sound that you have all described.

If you really feel gutsy, I guess, try tuning down to Ab on your C strings, but I do believe that the continuous loosening and retightening of strings will shorten their lifespan.

Hope all is well with everyone,

TP21


Thank you that was very helpfull and you describe everything very clear to understand specially to new people like me ,I am a biginer as i told you and need to learn more and it takes years , But i am willing and have a very good teacher ,wael kakish. Thanks again and God bless. samir, california.

SamirCanada - 10-7-2005 at 06:46 PM

Sorry Samir I didnt see your question.
I will try to explain the best I could. First I use a computer program to tune my oud and its called AP tuner. I have posted the link a couple months ago. Well lets take for example the high C string. I have a analog style needle indicator of how close to the note C Iam. If its dead on C then the needle points strait up. And on both side of this you can see the -30, +30, -50, +50.
Well to tune half a step down.. you make the sound bring down the needle to -50. With the C note selected like you can see.

And by the way dont give up learning oud. I have not even been playing for 2 years. And Iam learning soo much everyday and I enjoy playing a lot more now cuz after a bit its nice to listen to yourself play but it comes slowly and then it hits you and you cant put the oud down.

Greg - 10-7-2005 at 08:35 PM

SamirCanada,

AFAIK, the term "half step" usually refers to a musical semitone (half a tone). So tuning C down a half step gives you B. Tuning down a further half step gives you Bb. Tuning down a further half step gives you A natural etc.
Using the -50 on the AP tuner software gives you a 1/4 tone.

Regards,

Greg

SamirCanada - 10-8-2005 at 06:24 AM

Thanks for the clarification.
I was wondering actualy because I have been able to match the sound of Abadi el johar's galaw tara by cuting out one of his notes on oud and repeating it many times to see where the tunner grabed it. And that's how I managed to get the same sound. So Iam sorry about the confusion... I figured since its -50 it must be half step. Either way neither Abdadi and myself are tuned half a step down. Its more like 50% from half a step right?
But let me get it strait. If you tune C down half a step you would get B or B# ? Iam confused by what you said: "So tuning C down a half step gives you B. Tuning down a further half step gives you Bb" that seems odd mathematicaly. Thanks

revaldo29 - 10-8-2005 at 07:58 AM

Hey Samir,

Yeah half a step below C is B natural. B# is also known as C. All that sharp and flat mean is that either a half step above or below. So B flat is a half step below B natural. Think if it like a keyboard. A half step is when you directly to the adjacent key. So, if you are on C, the key directly below you is another white key, B natural. But if you are on B natural, the key directly below you is a black key, B flat.

Adnan

SamirCanada - 10-8-2005 at 08:09 AM

Ok now I know why it sounded close to farid's oud since I was tuning 50% from a half step. And according to TP he tuned to 75% away from a half step. Thanks

billkilpatrick - 10-8-2005 at 08:27 PM

dear samir -

what a wonderful idea! we're got guests to lunch today but as soon as the dishes are dry ...

it's amazing how few tuning variations there are for the oud when you consider the hundreds (well ... "lots") of alternate tunings there are for the guitar. i tried tuning my guitar like an oud recently but can't say it was great success. after courses with tandem strings, single strings sound very thin indeed.

pace - bill

billkilpatrick - 10-9-2005 at 09:19 AM

dear samir (II) -

took your advise and tuned my oud down a full step so that i now have:

C-F-G-C-F-Bflat (bass to treble)

don't know what you make of that but for me, it's a marvelous improvement. i use my oud to play early european music from the renaissance and medieval periods. it's always been a hit and miss procedure with the standard D-G-A-D-G-C tuning. not sure why - too many drums perhaps - but i sometimes found myself unsure of the key (the ladies vary enormously) and was left searching for notes while the rest of the group plowed on. the way the fingerboard is arranged now i can easily see the progression of notes in my head and can use the same four-finger-closed-position pattern (no open strings) throughout almost the entire repertoire.

this is purely subjective but i also think this lower register is more in keeping with a medieval sound.

your suggestion is such a simple and - now - obvious improvement - thank you very much for making it.

sincerely - bill

DD - 10-14-2005 at 09:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by billkilpatrick
i use my oud to play early european music from the renaissance and medieval periods. it's always been a hit and miss procedure with the standard D-G-A-D-G-C tuning. not sure why - too many drums perhaps - but i sometimes found myself unsure of the key (the ladies vary enormously) and was left searching for notes while the rest of the group plowed on. the way the fingerboard is arranged now i can easily see the progression of notes in my head and can use the same four-finger-closed-position pattern (no open strings) throughout almost the entire repertoire.

this is purely subjective but i also think this lower register is more in keeping with a medieval sound.
sincerely - bill


Fascinating thought. I wish I could listen to you.

Keep making the music play,
Don

billkilpatrick - 10-14-2005 at 09:44 AM

my sound-wiz' son has promised to teach me how to record using the computer ... we'll see.

if you're interested in what i would LIKE to sound like, there's a group in the u.k. called "the dufay collective" with an oud player named giles lewin. magnatune has some of their pieces but i'm not sure if his oud virtuosity is represented.

- bill

DD - 10-14-2005 at 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by billkilpatrick
my sound-wiz' son has promised to teach me how to record using the computer ... we'll see.

if you're interested in what i would LIKE to sound like, there's a group in the u.k. called "the dufay collective" with an oud player named giles lewin. magnatune has some of their pieces but i'm not sure if his oud virtuosity is represented.

- bill


Fun website. You know, their discography reminds me: It was when I was first listening to Alfonso el Sabio's Las Cantigas de Santa Maria in 1979 (or was it 1279?) that I first "heard" the powerful Arabic influence in the development of Western music. I thought that some of this 13th Century Spanish music sounded more Middle Eastern than Western.

Re recording: Ever tape yourselves? If you have a cassette tape of some of the music, and if you like to use cassette tapes, let me know. Perhaps we could do some trading. I have a high-end analog system and 1,2,3,4,..5 tape recorders (need one of those??), and I recently got my hands on, for example, Simon Shaheen's out-of-print Tribute to Abdel Wahab on LP...now would you like that on Nak or Revox?...with or without Dolby?....

syrianoud - 10-14-2005 at 07:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SamirCanada
Sorry Samir I didnt see your question.
I will try to explain the best I could. First I use a computer program to tune my oud and its called AP tuner. I have posted the link a couple months ago. Well lets take for example the high C string. I have a analog style needle indicator of how close to the note C Iam. If its dead on C then the needle points strait up. And on both side of this you can see the -30, +30, -50, +50.
Well to tune half a step down.. you make the sound bring down the needle to -50. With the C note selected like you can see.

And by the way dont give up learning oud. I have not even been playing for 2 years. And Iam learning soo much everyday and I enjoy playing a lot more now cuz after a bit its nice to listen to yourself play but it comes slowly and then it hits you and you cant put the oud down.


Thank you very much..I got you. Very helpful to me. And hope that soon i will play the oud good.Regards Samir,Ca