Mike's Oud Forums

my oud repair Amateur version

SamirCanada - 10-14-2005 at 10:59 PM

Hello I have decided to take my learning experience forward by taking a cheap oud that I have wich I have never liked its sound and replacing the face with a quality cedar top.
Shure enough with some advice I got from here I got the info on where to get a nice Cedar top. Wich Iam now going to bookmatch using the same method Jameel used with his first oud. Iam planing on making it a floating brige oud and I would love some info on the bracing for that. Is there anything different then a regular brace pattern? Iam going to fit the extra part of wood onto the bottom of the oud by using the same technique Jameel used to fit the braces. I'll shape it to the form of the oud using sandpaper.
Wish me luck. Iam going to take my time at this since its mid-term exam time for me and I'll be slightly busy with that but I promise to share the pictures and developement.
Cheers.

here is the inside of it.

SamirCanada - 10-15-2005 at 12:18 AM

Here is the inside... I wonder if I should do something about that old glue. Iam shure it would be a good idea to scrape the bowl inside and put a peice of heavy paper with glue..? Or paper tape plus glue maybe? Doc.. Jameel?

the old bracing.

SamirCanada - 10-15-2005 at 12:24 AM

Not too sharp... but they were well fited as I had to unglue all of them one by one. They are also made with some kind of drywall like material. Not spruce. Notice the arabic newspaper on the top. How thick should I make my new face? And also the neck has a perfect action and I wont want to touch it. Actualy I tested to see if it was sturdy enough and well it shure was actualy I couldnt move it from there so... I'll post some pics of how its attached... Its rather crude a technique but I have never seen anything like that... plus it seems like it works so... I'll leave it alone.

Jameel - 10-15-2005 at 05:35 AM

Great job so far, Samir. As for the thickness of the new face, you have to have experience to judge each piece of wood individually, and it will dictate the proper thickness based on how dense and stiff it is. Unfortunately I've only done 4 soundboards so far, and don't have enough experience either. I shoot for 2mm usually, as this seems a general rule for spruce and arabic tuning, 60-62cm scale. I know Dr. Oud says to make it 1.5mm, so there is another factor for you. On the other hand, my Sukar's top is just about 3mm! and it sounds pretty good. It's really tough to find this technical info about the oud, most of it is by feel, I guess. Although I find it hard to believe that a factory produced oud (like Shehata--he's not just working alone, that's why I used the word factory, not to suggest a lower quality) has a top that is fine tuned the way a single luthier would do it, but I'm probably wrong. I think Shehata and similar luthiers know so well the proper characteristics of the soundboard that they just repeat the basic patterns from oud to oud, since they already know what works. For us, it's a mix of luck and hope. I'm still hoping for a good sound with my oud project. As for the bracing on a Bashir-style, that's something Richard or Samir Azar or maybe Ronny would have to answer. I have no idea how it's done. I'd scrape the inside clean, but don't kill yourself. Sometimes a paste is made and smeared over the joints to reinforce them. It's ugly for sure. If you're concerned about that aspect, you could scrape it clean and glue some paper in. Be careful though, it's easy to pop a joint when pushing from inside.

Dr. Oud - 10-15-2005 at 06:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SamirCanada
Here is the inside... I wonder if I should do something about that old glue. Iam shure it would be a good idea to scrape the bowl inside and put a peice of heavy paper with glue..? Or paper tape plus glue maybe? Doc.. Jameel?

I wouldn't try to scrape the old glue/filler out if it is still stuck tight. However, glue is hydroscopic, so it absorbs moisture and isn't veryl that strong by itself. I would add some parchment paper on top of the filler - parchment is stronger than plain paper since it is pure celulose fiber (like wood). Paper is made of rags, lint, whatever, plus an indeterminate amout of chemicals. You can find parchment at your local arts and craft store. Soften the glue/filler with some warm water, then rub hide glue into a strip of parchmnent paper before applying it over the joint. After it dries, seal the paper with shellac.

The floating bridge soundboard and brace system is much different than a glued on bridge and both the thickness and bracing needs to be changed. The glued bridge puts a torsional force on the face, and gains some strength from the tension component pulling on the tail end. The floating bridge puts a direct compression force into the face, so the face thickness, braces and structure are different to accodate the compression force. Many floating bridge ouds collapse because thay have not been built for this different force component.

I don't have an accurate measurement of a Fadel soundboard, but I would start with a thicker face, at least 2mm or even 2.5. You can always make it thinner, but not thicker, no?

To accomodate the compression force, Fadel used a continuous inner corner liner at least in the lower bout. He also added some cleats under the bridge and tone braces. Fadel used 7 braces, but I don't have all the exact locations. I have some dimensions for the sound holes, brace size, and thickness but not for the precise placement of braces. The tone and bridge brace are crucial to the response of the soundboard, and if someone could measure their Fadel it would be beneficial. In any case the bracing would have to be adjusted for the size of your oud body anyway, unless it's the same as a Fadel (not likely).

palestine48 - 10-15-2005 at 08:11 AM

I would assume Samir Azzar would be best to help since his ouds are floating bridge ouds.

SamirCanada - 10-15-2005 at 03:35 PM

yes.. only Iam affraid this would be in a privileged information category.
I'll email him and ask I'll let you guys know what I can share.
Cheers

SamirCanada - 10-17-2005 at 10:45 AM

I got the info from Samir Azar, And I would like to thank him verry much.
I decided not to use a new peice of cedar for this project since I figured it wasnt worth it since the bowl is constructed so.. so.. Its more of a learning experiance for me I would like to see if I can do a good job first with this repair before using quality wood. I have one brace shaped and glued at this point. I have to proceed one brace at a time since I dont have the extensive clamps. Also I have the socket where the strings are run through the bottom glued. I sanded the face down to 2 mm. And that took all the old finish away from the face. Only Its a really fragile peice right now. I only have to remove the old glue from the braces and rosettes now. I dont think I'll put in any rosettes at this point. I need to build a floatin brige and I have decided to do it using a light wood. to wich Iam going to glue a strip of bone in wich I'll make the dents for the strings.

new use for the old brige.

SamirCanada - 10-17-2005 at 10:47 AM

glueing the old brige to the base

Dr. Oud - 10-17-2005 at 11:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SamirCanada
glueing the old brige to the base

You do realize that the old bridge will need to be redrilled so the strings are at the right spacing at the floating bridge location,no? The taper of the neck will spread the strings further apart at the tail. The old bridge may not be wide enough for the string spacing at the tail.

SamirCanada - 10-17-2005 at 12:23 PM

I get what your saying Doc. Only I based myself on pictures of different iraqi ouds and on my own Tayyar oud with a floating brige I had a few months ago. The old brige wasnt too far away from what is needed and the other thing is... I dont have any wood. Since like I said I didnt think it was worth to go out and buy the wood. Its more like a experiment but in the end if it colapses then It wont make a difference since this oud sounded like a box. Also since Iam not at home right now durring university session I have limited acces to tools so I work with what I have and really its not too much.
Thank you soo much for your input
Samir

Elie Riachi - 10-17-2005 at 08:25 PM

Samir,

This is so brave of you and looks good so far. You would be surprised how much difference what the Doc has pointed out will do. If you do not re drill, the strings may be too close together where you strike them. You may be able to pick up a cheap drill at rummage sale. They are not that expensive new anyway. Here is this Black and Decker DR201K Variable Speed Reversible 3/8" Drill Kit at amazon.com for $28.49.

Best of luck.

Jameel - 10-18-2005 at 04:27 AM

Quote:
Also since Iam not at home right now durring university session I have limited acces to tools so I work with what I have and really its not too much.
Samir


Samir, when I was at university I'd do some of my woodworking (since I was away from home too) at the art department's woodshop. It was huge, full of tools, and you could do your thing there after class hours when there are usually only a few artists working there in the evening. And you'd definitely have an "in" with your unusual project. There are probabaly even some people there that might offer some good advice. That's my experience.

SamirCanada - 10-18-2005 at 06:52 AM

Thanks Jameel I'll look around and see if we have a wood working departement or something.
Thanx Jameel
By the way I did have to re drill the holes in the old brige since like The good Doc said the taper of the neck provocted that. I failed to see why but now its rather clear. Thanks DOC

SamirCanada - 10-18-2005 at 01:19 PM

Today I redrilled the bottom string socket so to accomodate the necks taper of the strings following what DOC pointed out also I made a rosewood brige using a statuette I got in Cuba for 2$ it wasnt a beutifull thing but it was nice wood so I got it. Anyways it serves its new life as a oud brige hehe. Also I figured a way to asbsorb a little more downard pressure. I had leftover peices of this rosewood so I cut it into small peices and I placed them right under the braces where the brige is. I left eges of the braces flat so they can rest nicely on those little blocks. I fitted them using the brace itself and afterwards i lifted them half a mm. So in the end I had to go over the ege of the brace with a sanding block once or twice and they fit snugly. This should help releive some of the downward presure from the brige. Also I made the brige 1cm ( najib shaheen recomends between 9 and 12 mm) I made it on the shorter side not to add useless pressure on the face.
Any suggestions other then that?
cheers

something funny

SamirCanada - 10-18-2005 at 01:21 PM

here is the joke of the Day! :))

Dr. Oud - 10-20-2005 at 08:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SamirCanada... Also I made the brige 1cm ( najib shaheen recomends between 9 and 12 mm) I made it on the shorter side not to add useless pressure on the face.
Any suggestions other then that?
cheers


The variations Najib mentioned probably were to align with the fingerboard. Hopefully your 1cm bridge is tall enough but if not you can add some shims or feet to the bottom of the bridge to raise it up. A few mm won't change the pressure so much, but it should be at least 9mm to put enough pressure on the face to make the volume acceptable. Congratulations on your new career in oud repair (but don't quit your day job just yet!)

Peyman - 10-20-2005 at 02:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SamirCanada
here is the joke of the Day! :))

That was hilarious Samir!
Good one!

SamirCanada - 10-20-2005 at 08:46 PM

Ok so I have completed my oud restauration. And I ran into a problem.
Jonathan remember our discutions about my string technique? how I didnt like to have the extra material. Well I found one use to leave material on the peg And its to swich from a regular brige to a floating brige oud. Its quit chalenging. Iam now looking for a marting style tortoise pickgard. Thats the only thing Iam missing. I was really afraid of how the sound would turn out to be. But Iam really thank full for all the info I got from Samir Azar from Syria. Also Iam so thankfull for the wonderfull help of our own DOC.O and Jameel. but like he said I wont quit my day job on it. I really LOVE the sound it has now and its much easier to play on.

SamirCanada - 10-20-2005 at 09:10 PM

Thats all the strings I found for this oud that fit. But I have ordered some Aquilas to fit on it. Iam going to post a sound sample I recorded when I first got the oud. And I managed to tune somewhat those 4 strings I have on there the only double course I had was a D3 the rest are single strings. Just to give you an Idea of the new sound it produces. It was recorded with the same mic. And with the same quality.
I'll record something nice when I get strings.

SamirCanada - 10-20-2005 at 09:11 PM

Old sound. :mad:

Greg - 10-20-2005 at 09:32 PM

Samir,

I am very pleased you didn't rush this job mate ;)

Regards,

Greg

SamirCanada - 10-20-2005 at 09:44 PM

Oh...thanks Greg. Actualy I tought I actualy cut many corners.
But I just couldnt have it lay around half demolished for a long time I think to most people a week and a half is quite a short time to change a top but I made shure I had nicely fited braces. Also having just ordered a shehata Iam broke so I couldnt afford to get quality wood to put on it wich I dont regrett at all since it sounds great now and It wasnt a good enough oud to put in quality materials.
Many thanks to all

Jonathan - 10-21-2005 at 05:18 AM

Samir, on the Advice board I posted a question looking for purfling, and Doc O gave me a link to LMI. They also sell pickguard material:
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/Secondproducthead.asp?CategoryName=Pick...

SamirCanada - 10-21-2005 at 06:58 AM

yeah Jonathan. But I think there going to charge me for international shipping to Canada.
I'll have to figure it out.
thanks

What pickgard side

SamirCanada - 11-2-2005 at 04:08 PM

Hello I received my tortoise imitation pickguard. This question might be a little silly but hey.. I have close to no experiance for this.
I have cleaned the surface of the oud with a damp alchool rag but now I have to decide wich way to glue the pickguard.
I have 2 options
Please gimme some input

This one being A

SamirCanada - 11-2-2005 at 04:11 PM

Option B

Dr. Oud - 11-2-2005 at 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SamirCanada...This one being A

I would rotate the pick guard to fit around the shamis (big hole) and cut it out around the right eyun (small hole). You will do the most damage in the area between these holes.

what about this?

SamirCanada - 11-2-2005 at 04:27 PM

It ends up covering a part of the bottom inlay but its not bad looking and wood cover more of that wear area.
BTW. I ordered it from LMI the link you posted. Its great service and it was verry fast concidering I didnt pay too much for shipping.
Thanks

revaldo29 - 11-3-2005 at 07:59 PM

Samir,

I gree with the Doc. It seems more appropriate to place the big curve around the big sound hole.

SamirCanada - 11-5-2005 at 03:40 PM

Hello fellas. I finaly have finished the oud and I have received the strings. Iam soo happy with the way this oud sounds now. It was a great learning experiance. The funny part is that my mother thinks it sounds better then my other oud. :D yah right... I dont think so but It doesnt sound much better then it did. Anyways you can feel the notes resonate through your body. Its really neat.
here is how it sounds now.

pics

SamirCanada - 11-5-2005 at 03:49 PM

zaidoun - 11-17-2006 at 06:23 AM

what is the quality of oud ?

SamirCanada - 11-17-2006 at 06:38 AM

Not good

;)

thats why I did this... just for fun and practice.