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My first oud

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Jonathan - 10-26-2005 at 10:23 AM

I have finally decided to take the plunge and make an oud. Let me preface this whole thing by telling you that I am sure that this entire experience is going to be a bit of a challenge--I am not a woodworker, not a luthier. But, I thought I would give it a shot. At first I was not going to post a thread on this, but I figure I am going to need a lot of input, so I decided to start this thread. I anticipate that this is going to take me a long, long time. And, there will certainly be weeks where I will do pretty much nothing.
I am relying heavily on Dr. Oud's book. But, if the oud turns out sub-par, don't blame the book. The book is terrific.
First, here's a pic of the oud I am patterning it after, a 1964 Karibyan.

Jonathan - 10-26-2005 at 10:29 AM

I made a profile of the above oud in particle board. Not the most durable stuff, I know.

Jonathan - 10-26-2005 at 10:33 AM

Here's the raw wood. I picked it up from Gilmer Woods (http://www.gilmerwood.com) The first block is flame maple, and the second is a lacewood. I know these are tough to work with, but I really, really love figured wood. If it proves too tough, I will switch to something else.
I had, incidentally, also picked up a small block of bubinga, and a block of purpleheart. They seemed so incredibly dense I didn't even bother to try to cut those two. I will use them somewhere else.
Mike posted a pic of a Kyvelos a while back that used a lacewood, and it seemed beautiful. And, on Dincer's site, his oud has a flame mahogany for some of the ribs, which looks pretty amazing. This maple probably won't look as rich, but I did want a nice contrast between the two ribs.
I think that is a great look.
The problem is that I am going to have to be super accurate fitting the ribs, because there is such a contrast between the two woods that any errors will be easily noted, particularly where they taper down toward the neck and toward the base of the bowl.

Jonathan - 10-26-2005 at 10:44 AM

And, the maple is incredibly tough to cut. But, here are the ribs. I cut them to 1 1/2 wide, by 1/8th of an inch thick, and 28 to 30 inches long. In the end, I want 21 ribs for the bowl of the oud. I made plenty of extras, but I know that I am going to need them. That lacewood looks incredible. I wonder, though, if I made a mistake with the maple--almost too light in color.
I decided to order some ebony purfling strips to place between the ribs.

Dr. Oud - 10-26-2005 at 10:49 AM

Way to go Johnathan! I had very little experience when I made my 1st Karibyan copy (oh yea!) I had made a mountain dulcimer - really a box with strings; and I put a long neck on a mandolin to make a baglama. You're so lucky to have the crew here to help. I was lost at the beginning and confused at the end. It worked, though, and still does. Just take it a step at a time, you can do it!

TruePharaoh21 - 10-26-2005 at 10:55 AM

Jonathan,

Just wanted to wish you luck on this incredible task that you are about to go through. If you don't have certain tools that you might need for your project, there are several places around that I believe would allow you to use their tools for free (for free!?!? whaaaat?) I know...

Various universities would probably be very useful. I've also heard that there are woodshops associated with the museums that are around here, and that they sometimes allow for people to come in at night after everyone's done working and allow you to work on your own thing.

May the greatest of luck be with you. I'm sure that you'll make a very fine instrument. You have great oudmakers here to help whenever you need (It's almost like they're on speed dial!).

Hope to see you soon as well,

TP21

Jameel - 10-26-2005 at 11:23 AM

Way to go Jonathan. You are following in your grandfather's footsteps. I have no doubt you'll make a fine oud. It's in the blood! Even if only for your grandfather's memory, you must finish it. My grandfather got me started woodworking, and I put his picture on my label instead of my own. The wood looks fabulous, and the maple will get nice and warm when you wipe on that first coat of Tru-oil. You've chosen a great combo.

Jonathan - 10-26-2005 at 02:05 PM

Thanks guys. I really appreciate it. I had wanted to get my grandfather's old moulds and use one of them. There is a luthier in Michigan that still has them, along with his tools. Unfortunately, he won't part with them. It would have been nice. But, perhaps all of this is for a reason. Somehow, I am going to pattern my label after his. I am getting way too far ahead of myself, though.
Doc O, me copying a Karibyan is like a little kid with a box of Crayolas saying he is going to copy the Sistine Chapel. We will see.
True Pharaoh, I do have some tools, but not a lot. A half way decent table saw, some chisels, drills, and basic stuff. Not a lot, but hopefully enough to see me through.

mavrothis - 10-26-2005 at 06:37 PM

Hey Jonathan,

This is great news. The wood looks really beautiful, great choices. I can't wait to see your progress. You can do this, and believe me, this won't be your last oud. I can tell you are too passionate about this.

Enjoy, and thanks for sharing this with us. It really is great how this site and others have really inspired more people to make ouds. Hopefully I will one day too.

Take care,

mavrothis

Jonathan - 10-27-2005 at 07:24 AM

Thanks, Mav.
I decided to make a mould for the oud. I was going to go with DocOs mouldless approach, but switched over to the mould idea. Not sure why. I made it out of solid pine--1 inch at the base, and 3/4 inch elsewhere. I probably should have made it out of a high-grade plywood--I think perhaps less chance of warpage with that, should I decide to use this mould again. Oh well.
Only 4 bulkheads. Might have been better with 5. Gotta fix that front bulkhead--the shape is off.

Wasn't too tuff to figure out. I traced that profile onto the pine for the base, and cut off about 1 3/4 inch at the top for the neck block, and about 1/2 inch at the base for the tail block. Then, exact same pattern for the center brace.
This really is a learning process.

Jonathan - 10-27-2005 at 08:02 AM

The neck block proved tougher than I thought. At first, I was going to use a hardwood, but with all the sanding you have to do, it was impossible. And, too heavy.
Then, I found some old wood in the rafters of my attic that had belonged to a great uncle. Must be at least 20 or 30 years old. Redwood, I guess, but I am not positive. Lightweight. Still, the neckblock was tough, because I had the tendency to round it out too much.
I just screwed it into the mould when I was done--should be easy enough to remove when it is time to separate the bowl from the mould.

Jonathan - 10-27-2005 at 08:04 AM

Tail block, and the guide lines.

Jonathan - 10-27-2005 at 08:14 AM

A waste of money, perhaps, but I bought the rib bender from LMI.
I also bought some ebony purfling. No way for me to make that.
1/40th of an inch thick. I still have to figure out how to work with that. Not sure if bending will be difficult or not, yet.
I could have bought some sandwiched purfling (black/white/black), and that might have been better, but I am not going to buy more purfling now that I have this. Also, all of the sandwiched purfling that I could find was synthetic, and I wanted the bowl to be all wood. I guess I could have bought some maple purfling as well, and do the job myself, but it just seemed like it would be too difficult.
This purfling is just so thin, but, when I place it between the rib blanks, you still do notice a difference immediately.
It is so thin, that I did not even have to factor it into my calculations for the rib dimensions. Heck, it is thiner than the pen line I used to mark the mould.
Did my first rib bending last night--just one rib of maple, to try out the machine. I am going to try for the dry approach. Time consuming.

Jonathan - 10-27-2005 at 08:38 AM

I am planning on cutting the rib blanks to approximately the right shape, bending, and then using a sanding block to make it right. Is this the way to go?
Thanks

Jameel - 10-27-2005 at 09:09 AM

Looking good so far, Jonathan. Who are you trying to kid? At this pace you'll be done in no time! Nice bending iron. I'm jealous. You won't be able to bend the purfling on it's own, it needs support since you are bending it across it's short dimension. You could try bending the purfling like Dincer does. (I'm pretty sure that's what he's doing in those pics on his site)Clamp a rib next to a previous rib on the mold, leaving just enough room for the purfling to slip in. Then heat the purfling with a small iron, and use the mould and ribs themselves as the form. You can bend the ribs either before or after you cut. It's easier to cut them to shape before bending, but on the other hand, it's easier to bend them when the ribs are still square. (less chance of twisting) You can sand them to shape after cutting them, but things will go much faster if you plane them to shape, using an inverted bench plane (like a #6 or #7). Then use the sanding board to tweak the fit. That's where the sandpaper really shines. You can press harder on the high spots for a perfect fit. I also make my sanding board somewhat longer than the two sheets of sandpaper. This way I can position the rib so only the section I want to sand is sitting over a corner of the sandpaper, and the rest on the board without the sandpaper, using a light touch and checking the fit often, you can achieve a light-tight fit with no pressure on the rib. That's how I've been fitting ribs lately. I hold the rib up to the next one just enough to close the gap (not really pushing, just holding), then shine a strong flashlight (I use one of those mini-keychain LED lights--the bright white light is perfect) from behind and as you move one hand holding the rib (you can tack it place so it doesn't fall while you adjust your position with a little piece of masking tape at the widest spot)move the flashlight and check all along the rib for light leaks. Ideally, you should see NO light at all. Obviously you can't do this where the blocks are, just have to look closely to make sure the fit is good. It's tricky sometimes to get the tail end to fit well. Don't be tempted to push it over to get it to fit. Instead, start out with more material removed from the center of the rib (with both ends fitting nicely) and slowly sand your way until the whole length fits well, kind of "sneak-up" on a perfect fit. If you go too far and the center fits well but the tail end has a gap, you'll have to remove material from the entire rest of the edge to get the tail end to fit. If you push it over (even a little, like a 1/32") by the time you do this even a couple times, your outline at the face will be narrower. The mould helps prevent this, but you'll know it's happening because the rib won't fit right--it will butt into the mould. I had the opposite problem with this latest oud. I was off a hair in the other direction, so my oud ended up about 1.5cm wider than I planned. But a back with more volume is not a problem in my book. Quite the contrary. It's more aesthetics than anything. Shoot for symmetry.

oudmaker - 10-27-2005 at 10:40 AM

Jonathan

First I am glad you chose to use classical mold.
Few Questions:
Did you raise your mould about 1.5 cmm at the end block?. It is important that you should do so. When you have your outline in plane. Have a half of it turn 180 degrees on a line raised 1.5 cm at the end and zero at the front.
Are you planning to use sand paper ? Use a long wood plane held in a vise like Jameel suggests. Check them on a painted glass for their straitness at the edges while they were curved.
Did you bend your ribs before you try to cut-in shape? Do so. Just imagine that you are going to have a slice of melon!!
Jameel's suggestion working with pufling between ribs is correct. It takes a couple trials but you can do it. Use news paper as you use hot little iron travelling along the joint which has hot hide glue. Never use sentetic glues where you think later you may want to open for some reason: like repaires. Also I beleive hide glue cures much britle and harder than all others which is good to transfer the vibration and also works like wood and with the wood when the instrument subject to a different humid conditions.
If you don't want your oud finaly end up being 1.5 cmm wider than your mould do what I do. After you determined and cut the length of the purfling, sand 10 or 15 times (depending your purflings thickness) 15-20 cm of both ends with a medium send paper on a little sending block. You do that too Jameel. Hadi Usta told me to do so and it works.
Best regards Guys
Dincer

Jonathan - 10-27-2005 at 12:43 PM

Thanks, gentlemen. I am taking your advice. Rib bending is proving much more difficult than I expected, but it is probably just because I am being a bit too cautious. I was worried about the maple, but the lacewood is somehow more difficult to bend.
As far as the purfling goes, I am going to try your approach, Dincer. I will use the flat top of that bending iron for the job. The purfling is unbelievably thin, though (one fourtieth of an inch!). Still, with 21 ribs, that does add up to a half an inch. I will heed your advice.
I have a few days off that I am devoting to this, but I am sure that my pace will slow down significantly in November.
Dincer-- I raised the line 1 inch in the back. Close enough to 1.5 cm, hopefully. I just looked at other ouds and tried to estimate the proper amount.

Dr. Oud - 10-27-2005 at 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jameel.... I also make my sanding board somewhat longer than the two sheets of sandpaper. This way I can position the rib so only the section I want to sand is sitting over a corner of the sandpaper, and the rest on the board without the sandpaper, using a light touch and checking the fit often, . .... It's tricky sometimes to get the tail end to fit well. Don't be tempted to push it over to get it to fit. ... If you push it over (even a little, like a 1/32") by the time you do this even a couple times, your outline at the face will be narrower. ...Shoot for symmetry.

I'll have to try some new things - it seems like you guys are developing more and better (maybe) ways to git-r-done. When I'm fitting ribs on the sanding table, I just hold the rib lightly with one hand and push on the edge opposite the high spot to dial in the fit. I dunno about running over the edge of the sandpaper, I guess I'll have to give it a try. Another result of pushing the rib end over and twisting it is that the shape of the perimeter will flatten out at the tail making the shape more triangular than roundy. Symmetry - hmmm. I had an interesting conversation with John Gilmer of Gilmer Wood Company. He has traveled the world many times searching for rare and exotic woods and since much of his clientele are instrument makers, he has visited many museums over the years. He has noticed that the old masters didn't pay as much attention to symmetry as we modern folk. For instance the master guitar makers in Spain rarely used molds and consequently their guitars are kinda lopsided, but their sound is difficult to match today with all the sophisticated tools and techniques we have (I still want a scroll saw, though). The Hamza Usta is not symettrical either, although I don't know if it was originally so or if it happened in later repairs ( of which i'm sure there were many). I think we are conditioned so much by our machine-made perfectly symmetrical surroundings that lop sided things seem somehow wrong, even if very few things are symmetrical in nature. It doesn't make a rose less beautiful, though, does it?

Jameel - 10-27-2005 at 06:46 PM

Great conversation. Dincer, great tips, thank you very much. I'm going to try hide glue on my next back. I love the stuff, even if you do have to work fast. Jonathan, keep at it. I love this thread already.

Jonathan - 10-27-2005 at 07:21 PM

Rib bending. I have tried it wet, dry, and spritzed. No difference, so I will stick with dry.
I have the feeling that these ribs are too thick, though. Right now, sanded, they are 1/8 of an inch. I know I am shooting for 2-3 mm at the end of the game, but I thought that that would be accomplished by sanding down the bowl at the very end. Any thoughts? Should I thin out these blanks a bit more before bending?
I still haven't cut them, and am getting used to the bending iron.

Dr. Oud - 10-28-2005 at 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan...I have the feeling that these ribs are too thick, though. Right now, sanded, they are 1/8 of an inch. I know I am shooting for 2-3 mm at the end of the game, but I thought that that would be accomplished by sanding down the bowl at the very end. Any thoughts? Should I thin out these blanks a bit more before bending?...

I wouldn't thin them just yet, especially on your first bowel (belly, back, whatever). You will find that as you glue the edges together there may be some slight offset and the extra thickness will save a redo. If you do find some offset later you might be able to re-glue that area. You will need to get creative with some clamping cleats, but it is possible and preferable to re-fitting a rib in between some others. To get a smooth round shape you will need the thickness anyway. When it's done you should scrape the inside first, and just so that the glue joints are flush. Then you can rasp, sand and/or scrape the outer surface. I put my fingers opposite the spot where I'm sanding and when I just begin to feel something, it's done. I use a soft rubber pad to smooth things out a little more than bare hand held sandpaper. I suggest using parchment paper to reinforce the glue joints. The surface on both sides of the glue joint is primed with Hide glue first. Glue is then rubbed into a strip under a lamp to keep it warm and retard the gel time. Apply the glue infused strip over the joint and rub it down with a hot damp pad. Remove the excess glue on the edges before it sets. After all the joints are covered, seal the parchment with shellac.

Jonathan - 10-28-2005 at 09:50 AM

Thanks! Believe it or not, it is not the maple, but the lacewood that is causing me all of the problems. Next oud, I am going with mahogany, or at least something that bends a bit easier than this stuff.
Slow going, but I am getting there.

Peyman - 10-28-2005 at 01:58 PM

Good going Jonathan. It looks like you're on a great start already.

Quote:

Then you can rasp, sand and/or scrape the outer surface. I put my fingers opposite the spot where I'm sanding and when I just begin to feel something, it's done.

How much sanding does it take to go from say 5 mm to about 2.5 on the bowl? Will this make the bowl even? I guess you have to be very careful if you're using rasps, Doc.

Dr. Oud - 10-28-2005 at 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peyman...How much sanding does it take to go from say 5 mm to about 2.5 on the bowl? Will this make the bowl even? I guess you have to be very careful if you're using rasps, Doc.

The inside is scraped flush first with a curved scraper. A rasp can be used for the rough work to knock down the edges that overlap on the outside. The back is then sanded smooth with 80-100 grit Garnet paper. How long it takes depends entirely on how hard the wood is. Scratches are removed with 120-150 grit, then I leave it and complete the rest of the oud before finish sanding with finer grit, and the finer you go the smoother the finish will be. I usually don't bother going past 220 grit, but Jameel's finish looks so smooth...

Dr. Oud - 10-28-2005 at 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jameel...I'm going to try hide glue on my next back. I love the stuff, even if you do have to work fast. ..

There are some tricks to using hide glue, like preheating the wood joint lengthens the gel time, and if you misscalculate, a little warm water will soften the glue and you can rebond with the same glue in the joint (if enough).

It doesn't take much to get a good glue pot working. All you need is a baby bottle warmer or a fondue pot and some baby food jars. These are cheap and easy to find. You just need to get in the habit of keeping the pot water warm, and mix a little at a time. Once you've applied enough glue, take the jar out of the water and it won't overcook. You can reheat it for a week if needed. Old glue is bad glue, so after it's a week old, toss it. The mix is important but simple: equal weight of water and glue granuales. Here's a scale I made that does the job-

Jonathan - 10-28-2005 at 11:18 PM

The one thing I know is that, if I ever build another ud, I am not using these two woods. The maple is difficult, and the lacewood is close to impossible. I know that I have never bent wood before, but I just could not believe how tough this was.
The maple just takes time, but bends ok. The lacewood, though, horrible. If you bend to quickly, you can hear the fibers tearing. And, the light mottled sections of the wood separate from the darker portions with rapid bending. I am not kidding when I tell you that it took about 45 minutes to bend each lacewood rib to the approximate shape. Maybe longer.
That LMI rib bender works fine, though.
Again, I have no experience bending wood, and I am sure that my inexpertise contibutes to the difficulty I am having bending this stuff. But, this is hard wood. The one good thing, I guess, is that, if I do it right, I think that the bowl will be super strong.
I just bent the ribs to the rough shape needed. Not exact. I figured I would rough the shape in, then cut, then fine tune the curves. Once that really sharp curve was done toward the base, the rest of the oud is really a pretty gently sloping curve--not tough.
You will see some scorch marks on the back of a couple of ribs of the maple, but otherwise, so far so good. I didn't crack any but, when I heard fibers tearing in the lacewood, I tossed those to the side and started with a new blank.
I am shooting for 21 ribs--11 lacewood, 10 maple. I am still a few short.

Jonathan - 10-28-2005 at 11:24 PM

I made a template out of some laminated paper for the shape of the 19 center ribs. They should all be the same size, of course, with a different shape for the remaining two. I figured I would use this to pencil in the rough curve on the back of the wood, then trim to proper shape. Everybody is suggesting a planer, but I wonder if I could just use a jig saw, cutting outside of the line, and then sanding.
I am not going to cut them all now, of course. Just the center rib.

oudmaker - 10-29-2005 at 01:03 AM

Jonathan;
What is the thickness you use when you cut your ribs? You guys complaining about bending them. My ribs cut to 2mm and I bend any wood with no problem with heat only; I mean any wood.
For the thickness you use for purfling is OK. All you have to do is to guess the rib width at the center little less. I saw your marks on the mould. They are OK too.
Hide glue lets you work with hot iron. I do not use any clamping at all Just look to the pictures at my website.
Good luck and you can ask me any thing you have difficulty.
Regards
Dincer

Jonathan - 10-29-2005 at 07:38 AM

Thank you, Dincer. My ribs, after sanding, were 0.13 inches, or 3.3 mm. I suppose that contributed to the difficulty I had. Next time, I am going to go thinnner, as you suggested.
At this point, since the wood is cut and bent, I am going to work with what I have, and sand down at the end.

Jonathan - 10-29-2005 at 07:33 PM

Dincer, I just want to make sure that I understand how to mount the purfling strips. Do you glue in place both ribs first, just leaving a space for the purfling to slide in? Or, do you just glue one rib in place, and then use the adjacent rib as a guide to help bend the purfling?
Thank you very much.

Jonathan - 10-30-2005 at 06:33 AM

Just fine tuning the curves on the ribs. I want it as close as possible so that I have to put as little tension as possible on the ribs when they are glued in place. Nothing is glued in yet, but I couldn't resist trying to get some idea of what it is going to look like (forget the gridlines for now, I didn't line them up for this shot). I am growing to like that maple more and more, and hope that the flames show up nicely after it is finished.

Mike - 10-30-2005 at 06:37 AM

Gone for a couple of weeks, and come back to see this??? WOOO HOOO Jonathan! Way to go bud!

Jonathan - 10-30-2005 at 06:41 AM

MIKE!! Welcome back, bro. We missed you.

Jonathan - 10-30-2005 at 06:52 AM

The template for the ribs. Works for all of the 19 central ribs. Then, I am using a jig saw for a rough cut, then a planer, then sand paper mounted on a board, then sand paper mounted on glass.

Mike - 10-30-2005 at 07:19 AM

it's good to be back Jonathan...that color combination for the back is incredible. can't wait to see it done.

Jonathan - 10-30-2005 at 07:22 AM

Thanks. I wasn't sure about it to start, but I am sort of loving it. And I think the ebony purfling will add a lot.
There's a little bit of "spring back" with the wood so, after bending it, I tape or clamp them to these forms I made.

oudmaker - 10-31-2005 at 12:53 AM

Jonathan

Here is how I glue two ribs with a purfling in between.
Very first rib on the mould as you know is the center rib. After center rib is glued to the blocks I secure one side of the rib with tumbpicks on the mould and doing so the rib wont move at one direction laterelly.
I cut the second rib to shape and test on a glass plate as well as against the first rib. I make sure no space between two of them then I get the purfling and roughly cut the length by overlayin on the rib #1. Then it is utmost important to have your final oud exactly or very close to yor mould you have to SAND BOTH ENDS OF THE PURFLING!! Hadi use to count the number of the sanding moves in order make them equally thinner. Look to your Manol or Onnik or any decent Turkish oud you will see it had been done. Sending lengt at both ends are about 15 or 20 cm.
Now comes to glue them together. What I do is the way all oldtimers I saw (quite number of them). Fisrt I put piecces of little news paper clippings under the #1 rib where they crosses the lateral ribs of your mould. Then apply glue with brush to the edge of the #1 rib where I am going to glue the 2nd one. Then I apply glue to the ends and the ribs side that to be connected. I put them together at the end block with the strait purfling in between which I already apply glue both side of it as well and secure them with a tumbpick. Dont wory about your glue will get dry. Then pushing gently #2 aginst the pufling and to #1 I put again a piecce of newspaper cut to 2X10 cms. over the joint and heat it with my iron. I keep doing this until I reach to the front block.I put a little glue to the block as well and secure the end of #2 against the #1 and purfling and the block with again two or three tumbpicks on the block.
That is it!!
There is no clapmping or taping Hot glue, heat and good matching sides do the trick.
Good luck for you second oud.
Dincer

Jonathan - 10-31-2005 at 04:15 AM

Dincer, you have made this very clear for me. Thank you very much!
My second oud? I haven't given up on this one, yet.
I think, though, that at least for the woods that I have chosen, the 1/8 inch is too thick, and I am going to aim for something closer to 2 mm, as you do. The amount of heat necessary to bend the ribs is too high with the current thickness, causes damage to the wood, and makes getting the correct curve too difficult. Perhaps I would not have had this problem had I used a softer wood, but that does not matter--I have the problem now.
So, I am going to take a couple of steps back, and, rather than push forward in a manner that I am struggling with, I am going back to the original wood, and try to make the blanks thinnner--closer to the 2 mm that you mentioned. I may have to buy more wood, but that is OK. When your are going the wrong way down a road, speeding up doesn't help.
But, I am not giving up on these two woods--I like them too much. I just need to make the blanks a little thinner, I think.
Thanks.

oudmaker - 10-31-2005 at 10:57 PM

Jonathan

Forgive my mistake in English but I never suggested that you should give up your first.
Now more points on bending the ribs. Since lot of you guys have difficulty on bending ribs.
First, assumption that it is easy to bend soft wood is easier then hard wood is not quite right. I found rosewood and ebony are much easier to bend then say flamed maple.
Second, most of the bending iron I saw in this forum is too small in diameter. Take a look what I am using in my work. My bending iron has 3 different diameters. Larger the diameter you heat more surface a time and when you feel that wood is getting less resistence to your pressure you go to smaller diameter and try to bend it to your whish and check it with your final curvature. I bend all the ribs -28 or 29- of them within 3 hours. I also use a little hotplate on the side to heat the cold rib a little bit then I put it on my bending iron. Don't be afraid of over heating and burning. You may have some burn at the beginnig but when you get to use of the wood you are using that will not occure again.
Third: As I said, bend all of them and tie them together. You don't need any piecce of wood to tie them on. When the time comes to cut to shape you use your little curved iron ( if you don't have any get one it is important) to fine tune the curvature to fit exactly to your mould. Please don't torture your self by using an outline on a paper of final shape of any form and please don't use sanding block but a longer hand planer attached to your vise. Practice it. You will be much quicker better to shape your ribs. And one-a- time please.
If you need more on cutting the ribs to shape I will explain it later
Regards
Dincer

oudmaker - 10-31-2005 at 11:06 PM

Jonathan
I forgat to mention it that If you are planning to make an oud with less then 23 ribs don't get down to 2mm. make them 2.5 mm.
Since we are talking about number of ribs vs to smooth curvature on the back Murat Usta once told me that when you put your hand over an oud you should be able to count the ribs withot looking them. Whwn you make ouds less then 23 ribs you should you allowed to have that corners.If you have it look to the Manol with 19 ribs. You will see what he ment
Dincer

oudmaker - 10-31-2005 at 11:09 PM

Sorry folks I should have chek my spelling. We have a say in Turkish: The chimney is cruked but the smoke is coming strait.

Elie Riachi - 11-1-2005 at 09:31 AM

Mr. Dincer,
I do not understand why thicker for less than 23 ribs?
Thank you and best regards,
Elie

oudmaker - 11-1-2005 at 10:21 PM

Elie
Because your ribs has to be wider. Your final back becomes more cornery and you have to cut inside as well as outside corners at the joints more from your ribs inorder to achive more smooth curvature laterally. When I suggest thicker I mean 2.5 mm max.
Dincer

Jonathan - 11-2-2005 at 07:42 AM

Thanks, guys. I am in the middle of cutting more wood-- most what was already cut was bent, and it was impossible to sand down easily. Same two woods, though.
Also, I have decided to change the purfling from 1/40th of an inch ebony to 1.5mm of wenge. I need the extra width of purfling--easier to work with, and it allows me to taper the edges as Dincer suggested. I think it will all look good together. I don't think I have seen wenge as purfling before, but I think it will look OK, and give a good contrast to the maple and lacewood. But, if anybody thinks otherwise, feel free to let me know.

oudmaker - 11-2-2005 at 11:28 AM

Jonathan
Your ribs are quite contrast why not to use black+white double pufling?
Dincer

Jonathan - 11-2-2005 at 11:31 AM

I could. I just thought that there was a lot of pattern in the maple and in the lacewood, so maybe I shouldn't have the purfling be too loud. But, I will think about it. I still have to cut the lacewood, so I have time.

Elie Riachi - 11-2-2005 at 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oudmaker
Elie
Because your ribs has to be wider. Your final back becomes more cornery and you have to cut inside as well as outside corners at the joints more from your ribs inorder to achive more smooth curvature laterally. When I suggest thicker I mean 2.5 mm max.
Dincer

Thanks Mr. Dincer. This makes sense now.

Rib Bending

Hank Levin - 11-4-2005 at 10:07 AM

Dear Jonathan et al,

I hope I got this post up in time to be of help. In the '60s I build around 3000 appalachian dulcimers ("Musical Traditions") and bent one hell of a lot of ribs, as well as quite a bit of oud and guitar work. I tried everything from steam chests to anhydrous ammonia (don't even go there) and came up with a really fast way to bend ribs---without even losing the ones with squirrley grain, that are often the most beautiful.

I used a jig made of 4" bronze tube with a simple nichrome heat element inside (a replacement for a bathroom heater element). The bronze was nice because it distributed heat and did not stain like iron pipe. I marked the ribs with soft chalk, 3 marks: The center or "apex" of the bend's sharpest point, and one mark for each end of the bend I had to work. (The placement of these marks was very subjective.)

I had a 2" soft brush in a cup or can of cold water, and would quickly brush a single sweep of water on each surface of the bend, the top and the bottom.

I would then genly roll the TOP surface of the wood (opposite the bend) on the hot tube, not to bend it but to vaporize the water and drive it into the outer surface of the wood. Then I'd immediately flip the rib over and proceed to bend it to form. I hold the end of the rib with one hand, and wooden block in the other. The block allowed me to press, if needed, directly over the "iron" without burning myself, and also to support the wood fibers if the grain was squirrely so they wouldn't lift and splinter.

The amount of water was minimal, and I considered that it was more important to use it on the outside of the bend (with heat) than on the inside, to prevent splintering.

I trained a number of people to do this for me. I would start them off with LOTS of scraps of damaged or unusable wood. Some of these guys became much faster than I was. We eventually would get very little waste or breakage.

By the way, bending a thin rib tends to create a longitudinal concave on the outside of the rib. On ouds this is considered something that must be overcome, as the preference is for a round smooth back. To accomplish that, the rib must be cut rather thick (2.5-3.0 mm) to give enough thickness to the glue joints so that they are not sanded away when they are rounded later on. This is especially true if there are fewer ribs. In European lutes, this natural "fluting" was considered attractive; the ribs were scraped clean in such a way that the concave curve was preserved, and the joints were only minimally dressed to remove all the glue. The end result was a "fluted" back. When I built my Karibyan copy, I started with ribs that were already only 1/16" thick, and you better believe there was no room in the rib joints to round the ribs without making them ridiculously weak, so I did them lute-style. I actually like it, and may well make future ouds like that.

By the way (I may have missed this if someone else mentioned it in this string), the way I bent the purfling for between the ribs---I used three pieces, as did the Karibyan that I was copying---was to stack 15 or so together and bind them tightly with thread, and then bend the stack like a rib. That's the easiest way I can think of to bend them edge-ways with any uniformity. If you do this, save it until you're reasonably comfortable bending ribs.

Best,
Hank Levin

Jonathan - 11-4-2005 at 10:45 AM

Thanks, Hank, for the tips.
About the purfling--you bound the whole length of purfling strips with string? Or just the ends? It seems like they would tend to separate as they bent, particularly if it was thin purfling. The string didn't get in the way?
I still have not decided on what purfling to use. I have 1/40 inch ebony that I bought from lmii, but I think it may be too thin. I do have wenge, but I would have to cut the purfling myself, which is just too much for me. Ideally, I would really like to find ebony that is about 1 or 1.5 mm--nice and bold. I have not yet been able to find this, however. I think the 1/40 may just be too thin.
I recut the wood to 3/32 inch--hopefully, that won't prove to thin. The maple bent easily. I have just been warming up the entire length of the rib blank over the heater by running it back and forth, then concentrating on that area that need the maximum bend. When the rib wants to, it melts to the form. No point in forcing it, because it just snaps. And, as Dincer suggested, I use the flattest portion of the heating element at first, then gradually use the sharper angles for the tighter bends.
The lacewood--I have to cut more. I tried to bend four blanks last night. 2 turned out ok, and 2 I had to discard because I could feel the fibers breaking. A stupid choice for wood for my first oud, but I am not giving up on it, because I think it will look incredible. I only need 11 lacewood ribs--just nine more to go.
Thanks again.

Hank Levin - 11-4-2005 at 11:01 AM

Sevgili Dincer bey,

I wrote and posted my "tips" on rib bending before I read the entire string, and so did not see your excellent suggestions on rib bending. I did not mean to be so discourteous as to repeat the points that you have made. Çok affedersiniz! --Hank

Hank Levin - 11-4-2005 at 12:05 PM

Jonathan--

No, it is certainly not enough to just wrap the ends; you need to wrap thread around the entire length of the bundle. Use cotton thread, not polyester, so it doesn't melt. Of course, if you burn the thread it's not as forgiving as the wood, and it will break. If that happens, just keep the stack intact and wrap more string. Probably coiling the thread around in an 1/8" spiral is fine. No, it won't get in the way. (That's why I use thread, and not string!)

By the way, Dincer is absolutely right about harder woods being easier to bend. Also, too much water (if you use it at all) will encourage fibers to come apart in wood with wavy grain. I never let it get sopping wet--just enough to soften the outer fibers into plasticity.

You can get a pretty good selection of purfling from Luthier's Mercantile <www.lmii.com>. They have not only ebony, but dyed wood (not as brittle as ebony) and black fiber purfling as well. I'd be leery of the black fiber between ribs on an oud. The ebony is REALLY brittle. I don't know if it would work for this purpose, but it may. If the thickness is OK but the width too great, I've used an exacto knife and straight edge to split it. (Not as easy as it sounds, but it can be done.) For a beginner, I'd really recommend using the "ebonized" (dyed) black purfling.

Think you'll get a chance to use the brushed water technique I recommended--or is it too late for that? --Hank

Jonathan - 11-5-2005 at 10:49 AM

Hank, I will give it a shot. This project is taking me a long time, but part of the reason for that is that I want to satisfy my own curiosity on a lot of stuff as I go along.
The maple is all bent, and the dry approach seemed to work as well as any other. And, I have tried just about every approach I could think of.
You are right about water and really figured wood--it tends to make the wood separate and become very difficult to work with. I have to cut some more lacewood, and then I will start bending that and will give your method a shot.
I appreciate your tips on the purfling--I did not realize that ebony was that brittle. I will let you know what I end up doing on that.

Jonathan - 11-5-2005 at 07:29 PM

Re-sawed the wood. Re-bent the wood. Fixed up the neck block (the contour was off a bit). Now, I am ready to glue in my first rib/stave/whatever you want to call it. I had planned on using carpenters wood glue rather than hide glue, but now I guess I have to re-think that if I want to put in the purfling using Dincer's method. The carpenters glue won't hold up to the heat, will it?
Thanks again guys. I'm lost without you.

Dr. Oud - 11-6-2005 at 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
Re-sawed the wood. Re-bent the wood. Fixed up the neck block (the contour was off a bit). Now, I am ready to glue in my first rib/stave/whatever you want to call it. I had planned on using carpenters wood glue rather than hide glue, but now I guess I have to re-think that if I want to put in the purfling using Dincer's method. The carpenters glue won't hold up to the heat, will it?
Thanks again guys. I'm lost without you.

Yellow carpenter's glue (aliphatic resin) melt temperature is about 150 deg, and does NOT re-bond after melting. Hide glue melts at around 375 deg, and WILL re-bond when it cools,. Hide glue is mandatory to use the hot iron method of joining. Btw the hot iron method is also used in the video on oud making .

syrianoud - 11-6-2005 at 06:40 PM

Wow Jonathan you just started and looks like you are almost there . Good luck brother ...... Samir, California

syrianoud - 11-8-2005 at 09:08 PM

Jonathan can you post more pictures of the OUD you building . Thanks Samir , California

Jonathan - 11-9-2005 at 05:47 AM

Thanks for the kind words Samir but, really, I have a long way to go. No new pics--I order the hide glue today. Thanks
Thanks Doc O for the advice and info.

syrianoud - 11-10-2005 at 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
Thanks for the kind words Samir but, really, I have a long way to go. No new pics--I order the hide glue today. Thanks
Thanks Doc O for the advice and info.

Jonathan , Dec 3rd concert in Santa Barbara , Waels students . Are you going ?
Regards Samir

Jonathan - 11-16-2005 at 10:03 PM

No, Samir, I can't make it, but thanks for letting me know.
OK. 1st rib in place, with the purfling (black/white/black) on each side. Turns out it was really easy to bend, so I just bent it like a rib, and glued and clamped it in place, and that seems to do the job.
Don't worry--No more pics until the bowl is almost done. I am loving that purfling, though, and think it is going to really add something nice to the look of the oud.

Jonathan - 11-16-2005 at 10:07 PM

Hard to see, I guess. Here is a closer shot.

SamirCanada - 11-16-2005 at 11:03 PM

Oh! yah!
Thats neat Jonathan.
Look at that wood!!... its really classy looking. I like it a lot and Iam shure you do aswell.
Take Care and good luck on your project

Jonathan - 11-17-2005 at 10:37 PM

So far, with each subsequent rib that I have put in place, the new rib seems to want to "ride up", particularly toward the back of the bowl where the sharp angle is.
Not much--maybe 1/2 mm, or 1 mm at the most. Is this natural, or am I doing something wrong? It's not that big of a deal to me, because I can always just sand that portion down at the end, but I am trying to have these ribs under as little tension as possible, and I want to make sure I am doing this right. I only have 4 ribs set (I don't want to admit how long that took).
Sorry no picture--I just set another rib and I tend to use a lot of tape while it is setting.
Do you guys think it would help if, when sanding the ribs (or planing them, for that matter) it would help to taper the sides in a bit, rather than make it a 90 degree angle. Perhaps that would help allow for the curvature of the bowl.

Dr. Oud - 11-18-2005 at 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
So far, with each subsequent rib that I have put in place, the new rib seems to want to "ride up", particularly toward the back of the bowl where the sharp angle is.
Not much--maybe 1/2 mm, or 1 mm at the most. Is this natural, or am I doing something wrong? It's not that big of a deal to me, because I can always just sand that portion down at the end, but I am trying to have these ribs under as little tension as possible, and I want to make sure I am doing this right. I only have 4 ribs set (I don't want to admit how long that took).
Sorry no picture--I just set another rib and I tend to use a lot of tape while it is setting.
Do you guys think it would help if, when sanding the ribs (or planing them, for that matter) it would help to taper the sides in a bit, rather than make it a 90 degree angle. Perhaps that would help allow for the curvature of the bowl.

The edges of the ribs must be at a slight angle, not 90 degrees. The angle is from the center of the bowel to the edge of the rib, so each rib is like the skin of watermelon cut lengthwise. That is what the sanding table does for you. When you sand the edges on the table with the rib curved to fit the profile, the edge is automatically cut to the angle that will match the previous rib. If you're not using the sanding table, how are you making the edges of the ribs flat? Just with the plane? It can be done that way, but takes a lot more skill to get the edges to match up.

Jonathan - 11-18-2005 at 11:08 AM

Doc, I am using a sanding table. I don't know why I didn't realize that--that the angle is not 90 degrees. Seems basic, but somehow I didn't realize it. Thanks!
I notice that I am getting some tiny bits of glue on the mould--I don't want to have the oud bowl stuck to the mould at the end of this, so I think I might put masking tape over the mould, put my markings on my masking tape, and then keep going. Or, I guess I could just tape some clear plastic wrap over the bulkheads.
I know it is probably a sign of not-so-great workmanship, but it's pretty easy to have the glue seep out of the joint and fall on the mould. I am making a pretty tight fit between the ribs and the mould (the ribs are laying flat right on the bulkheads), so I guess some of that is inevitable.

Jonathan - 11-18-2005 at 12:34 PM

I think I have it figured out. After the rib is mounted in place, I have a habit of taking a few passes at its edge with some sandpaper--a bad habit, I guess, but I do it just to make sure it is clean, and ready for the purfling. I am not talking about the sandpapering that Dincer was referring to, but rather sandpapering the rib itself. My guess is that, in so doing, I am flattening out the angle that I created with the sanding block.

Dr. Oud - 11-18-2005 at 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
Doc, I am using a sanding table. I don't know why I didn't realize that--that the angle is not 90 degrees. Seems basic, but somehow I didn't realize it. Thanks!
I notice that I am getting some tiny bits of glue on the mould--I don't want to have the oud bowl stuck to the mould at the end of this, so I think I might put masking tape over the mould, put my markings on my masking tape, and then keep going. Or, I guess I could just tape some clear plastic wrap over the bulkheads.
I know it is probably a sign of not-so-great workmanship, but it's pretty easy to have the glue seep out of the joint and fall on the mould. I am making a pretty tight fit between the ribs and the mould (the ribs are laying flat right on the bulkheads), so I guess some of that is inevitable.

I think if you don't have glue seeping out you don't have enough glue in the joint. It would be less -than-great workmanship to have dry glue joints. You can easily mask the mold with paraffin or candle wax. Melt it in a pan and brush it on the mold - glue won't stick to it and it won't peel off like tape or bunch up like masking paper. A light coat will be effective to release the glue and you could still see your mark lines, (unless you melt a black candle or something). You could also use your surfboard wax. All you California boys gone surfing now? I hear the surf's up.

Jameel - 11-18-2005 at 03:38 PM

All the work you did making the open side of the rib you just attached nice and flat is negated by ever touching it again with anything. You don't need to clean it up for the gluing. You must fit the next rib to the previous rib. Once the rib is mounted in place, DO NOT touch the open egde. If you've already done this, you might be able to salvage the rib by taking some very careful and precise passes with a fine, small (6")file making sure you hold the file totally flat along the edge, don't let it rock at all. This is tricky, but it can be done for very fine tweaking of the joint if you've done something to the rib already in place. I use clear packing tape on my mould to prevent the ribs from adhering.

Jameel - 11-18-2005 at 03:39 PM

By the way, Jonathan, it's looking great. You've got to post some more pics before the bowl is done. Don't tease us like that.

Jonathan - 11-18-2005 at 04:05 PM

Thanks, Jameel.
So, seeing this is a learning process, there are two screw-ups to avoid (so far)
1. Don't touch the edge of the rib after you are done with it on the sanding table.
2. Don't glue the oud to the mould! Spent the last hour with a hot blunt knife and some hot hot water freeing it up. I am sure it is still stuck in areas, but I will have to deal with that little by little. If worse comes to worse, I will disassemble the whole mould at the end.
Let's see how high that number will go. At least 100, I guess.
Thanks for the tips. I just put plastic over the bulkheads--should have read your advice first, Doc.

By the way, I am using Titebond for the bowl. I will use hideglue for the face and braces.
Jameel, I think I am OK--I see no gaps, even when I hold it up to the light.
My regular camera is out of commission--I will put up a pic soon.

Jonathan - 11-19-2005 at 04:14 PM

You know how sometimes you can struggle and struggle with something, and then it suddenly becomes easy?

That hasn't happened.

So, a couple of pics to show you where I am at. The wood is dirty, covered in spots with residual glue. But, still, I love the two woods, and the purfling, and I think it is going to shine up really nicely at the end.

Jonathan - 11-19-2005 at 04:21 PM

The rib on the far right has been a pain, and I am going to be ripping it off shortly. You can see it is a bit narrower than the others, as well. That just shows you how much of a struggle it has been--sanding, sanding, sanding, yet for some reason it just didn't fit well. You can see how far short I am of the guide mark. Even if I were to put the purfling on, it would fall far short.
Here's a pic of the problem area--this kind of goes along with what I was saying earlier about one rib "riding up" on the other. And, I can see light coming through this one--I spoke too soon on that earlier post.
So what am I doing wrong? Is my curve just off? Or, have you guys ever had similar problems?
There has to be some of that "ride up", it would seem, since essentially we are trying to make a curve out of flat planes of wood.
So, about the fit. I am checking for the light shining through with each rib that I set. So far, so good, except for this most recent one--and, I am getting rid of that. But, what if I completed the entire bowl, and then saw some light? Do you guys ever have that happen?

I am going to take that rib off--not really sure how, truthfully. I guess with a bit of hot water, and a hot knife, but I don't want to compromise the other rib joints.
I guess the real art of oud making is learning how to correct for your mistakes. It's easy to have one rib a little too wide in one spot, or too narrow in the next. I have problems correcting for this on the next rib. Hopefully, it will come with time.
The other possible cause for error is the purfling. The more I think about it, the more I am starting to realize how superior Dincer's approach is on this matter. It doesn't matter how tightly I glue and tape the purfling to the previous rib--the angle is still going to get screwed up.
But, all in all, I am satisfied with the other ribs. Once it is all sanded down, it will look good.

syrianoud - 11-20-2005 at 12:35 AM

Jonathan keep going man , that is nice i am following all your posts , This oud will sound better than a Nahat . The ribs looks very nice great color dark and light , I like that. So far looks great.

Best Regards... Samir , California

Jonathan - 11-20-2005 at 08:46 AM

I appreciate the sentiment, but I am not sure it will be better than a $50 tourist oud. But, thanks. I have given up on the quest for perfection on this one. When I started, I told myself it would all be perfect--all the ribs would end at a point, they would all be the same size, etc. Now, all I see are the mistakes. Still, I am going to do the best that I possibly can on this one. IT is amazing how much you learn just by doing it, rather than reading about it.
I don't regret the wood choice. It is exactly the look I like. Still, next time, I think I am going to go for all mahogany, no purfling. Should be a lot easier to work.
When bending the ribs, does anybody ever try to make them slightly concave along the transverse axis? I am not exactly sure how this would be done, but it seems like it might be beneficial, particularly at the big angle. Maybe just a small fillet temporarily under the rib at that point when bending? Just an idea.

Dr. Oud - 11-20-2005 at 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan....Here's a pic of the problem area--this kind of goes along with what I was saying earlier about one rib "riding up" on the other. And, I can see light coming through this one--I spoke too soon on that earlier post.
So what am I doing wrong? Is my curve just off? Or, have you guys ever had similar problems?
There has to be some of that "ride up", it would seem, since essentially we are trying to make a curve out of flat planes of wood.
So, about the fit. I am checking for the light shining through with each rib that I set. So far, so good, except for this most recent one--and, I am getting rid of that. But, what if I completed the entire bowl, and then saw some light? Do you guys ever have that happen?
...I am going to take that rib off--not really sure how, truthfully. I guess with a bit of hot water, and a hot knife, but I don't want to compromise the other rib joints.
I guess the real art of oud making is learning how to correct for your mistakes. It's easy to have one rib a little too wide in one spot, or too narrow in the next. ...

If I found a gap after I was done I will disassemble it and refit the ribs - I've done it before. Having the ribs all exactly the same width is not absolutely necessary, but if you make one narrow, the next one should be wider to compensate so that the final top ribs are in the same plane as the neck and end blocks or slightly higher. If not, the top edge will not be in a plane with the end blocks and you may not be able to align the top edge and blocks for the face and neck alignment.

Yellow glue will release with dry heat (~140 deg) better than with hot water. Warm water (not hotand sparingly) is used to release hide glue. You can use a heat gun at low or a hair dryer at high, or a small hot iron. The arts & crafts stores sell a nice little iron like Dincer uses for about $20. I got one to try his purfling method myself. You can also use a hot knife, but it must be a very thin knife and not too hot. Get a stiff pallette knife from the Art store. You can use any heat source to warm it up, but not too much so you burn the wood. Do some tests on scrap wood glued together until you get the temperature right. I'd use a pair of knives so one is heating while the other is de-gluing. Go slow and don't push, let the heat soften the glue and just seperate the joint, don't try to pry it apart or you can damage the rib edge.

I think the cause of the riding up of the edges is your curve being off. Each rib must be bent to exactly match the curve of the previous rib all along the entire edge without any pressure. If you think you can bend it into shape while you're gluing, ferget about it! Take the time to make the edges match as close as you can before you glue the rib on. If you force the ribs together with clamps or something you will introduce residual strss in the back and it will pop apart later with the slightest bump.

Making an oud involves continuous adjustment to compensate for variations in material and process. Just try to stay calm and keep at it. The satisfaction at the end will be exhilirating and unlike anything you've experienced.

Jameel - 11-20-2005 at 10:46 AM

Don't get discouraged, Jonathan. Keep at it. If you keep in your mind that this is a learning process, and you try your best, when you succeed you will be very pleased, when you fail, you won't be dissapointed. Yes, doing is MUCH better than reading. Dincer mentions tapering the purfling too, as if it were a very narrow rib, but this is not necessarily necessary. There are ouds (especially arabic ouds) with mosaic/marquetry purfling that are the same width from tail to neck. Tell me in more detail what you mean by "riding up". Are you checking your ribs for flatness after you plane/sand them? they should rest on a flat surface and contact perfectly from tip to tip. No gaps. You also have to keep in mind that if you are pushing the previous rib AT ALL to conform to the previous one, the opposite edge is moving too, it's no longer a flat surface. If you do this a little each time, it will compound very quickly. It's important that the first rib be glued to the blocks with NO twisting, beacause it will spoil the flatness of BOTH edges. Tell me more about "riding up" and I may be able to help some more. This is why I haven't tried the purfling or alternating woods yet. Luckily, my backs (all two of them!) have come out even enough that I could have done this, but when using one wood only, you can concentrate on the fit more, without having to worry about perfect spacing. Like they say, hindsight is 20/20. But you will have gained lots of experience from this, so keep it up.

Jonathan - 11-21-2005 at 12:06 PM

Gentlemen, you guys are tops. I am taking a few days off to regroup. Now I am looking for large sheets of sanding paper--tough to find. I may be getting too nitpicky with this, but I think it would make it a little more accurate, perhaps, if I had a larger sheet, rather than gluing several smaller sheets next to each other. And, sadly, one time the tip of the rib I was sanding got caught on one of the sheets of sandpaper, broke off, and had to be tossed. Grrr!
Thanks again!

Jameel - 11-21-2005 at 01:44 PM

I never bothered with larger sheets. I use 3m Super 77 adhesive, spray both the paper and the board, butt the ends of the paper together accurately and you won't have a problem. The Super 77 is expensive, but it sticks like crazy. If you really want a larger sheet, you might try a large sanding belt made for wide belt sanders. Those will be fabric backed.

Jonathan - 11-21-2005 at 02:04 PM

I'll give the small sheets another shot, I guess. I have had no luck finding larger sheets. I had a tiny corner of one pop up, catch on to the tip of the rib, and the rib broke. When you figure how much time goes into each rib--cutting, sanding, bending, sanding again--for me, that's gotta be almost a couple of hours (don't laugh).

Jonathan - 11-21-2005 at 06:29 PM

Thanks, Peyman. I took off that one problem rib, and added two more ribs today (I pretty much have the week off). Everything went fine. I made a new sanding block. I don't know what the problem was, but I am not going to worry about it now. Maybe the glue under the sandpaper was uneven. I don't know.
I am thinking about changing the pattern of the bowl slightly. I am not trying to wimp out, but I am thinking of having a total of 5 ribs of lacewood, and the rest maple, for several reasons. First, the wood is just too difficult for me to work with. You guys don't know until you have tried to bend it. If it doesn't want to bend where you want it to bend, it just won't. It is like having two different woods, each bending at different rates. The maple, comparatively, is no problem at all. Second, it is irritating on my skin, and my lungs, even with the mask and good ventiliation, which really bothers me.
So, lacewood down the middle, then, alternating maple/lacewood for 5 more ribs on each side. Then. . .
Don't know. Maybe just maple. Maybe something super dark.
Your guys are probably rolling your eyes, but I think it could look very, very cool. And, it will make the lacewood really stand out and look special. I'll let you know.
Thank you all for all of the input. I am learning a great deal. I have developed an even greater respect for those luthiers that can make the ribs all end at a point at the base of the bowl. Incredibly tough. As it stands now, I am going to either have a relatively large inlay or, more likely, a fairly large endcap. Not huge, but still bigger than I would have liked.
The whole process is incredibly frustrating, yet incredibly rewarding. At one point today, I was dissatisfied with the whole thing and was ready to start over. Now, however, I can sit back and stare at my 8 ribs and marvel at how good it looks.

Jonathan - 11-22-2005 at 06:20 AM

Getting there, slowly. I won't be able to work on it again for at least another week, unfortunately. Filthy dirty, but you get the idea. The maple looks like nothing now, but I have the feeling that those flames are really going to pop out when the bowl is finished.

Mike - 11-22-2005 at 06:47 AM

I'm digging it Jonathan. Looks beautiful my friend. Keep at it.

Jameel - 11-22-2005 at 12:03 PM

Looking nice, Jonathan. I can see the curl through all that glue! Here's an idea. Continue with maple (no pufling, so it looks like a continuous maple section), and end the back with one rib each side of lacewood (with purfling between the lacewood and maple section). You only have to fit the one edge, so it shoulnd't be too bad. Oh yeah, and when you go to clean off the glue and flush up your joints, start with a sharp cabinet scraper. No dust, and it does a very quick job, faster than sandpaper.

paulO - 11-22-2005 at 12:45 PM

Hey man..that maple will look plenty good when it's cleaned up, heck -- I can see the "curl" peeking out through the dirt !! The lacewood is a great complement, looking forward to your next installment.

Cordially..PaulO

mavrothis - 11-22-2005 at 01:04 PM

Great work Jonathan! Perserverence/patience are always rewarded!

Keep up the great work!

mav

Jonathan - 11-22-2005 at 02:19 PM

Thanks, guys. Jameel, your idea sounds like a winner. I am going to shoot for that, except I am going to keep the purfling going.
I have seen two ouds recently that used flame/curly maple, and they both knocked me out. One was by Kyvelos, and one was by Merjanian.
Unfortunately, seeing them made me realize that I should have taken a little more time and made sure that the flames/curls in all of the ribs were running in the same direction. Mine pretty much are, but not quite. I initially cut the rib blanks 1.5 inches wide, and the ribs are about 1 1/4 inch at their greatest point, so there was not much room for changing the angle. But, when cutting to the final shape, I would sometimes angle one way or another to avoid a certain area of wood that might look troublesome. You will notice above that the flames are not all running in the same plane. Not a biggie, though.
Wish I had more time to work on it this coming week, but it is going to be slow going through Christmas, unfortunately.

Jonathan - 11-27-2005 at 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Oud
Hey Johnanthan, it looks like an oud to me, they're always filthy dirty until the final sanding step. then when you wipe on some spirits, ouila! beauty!

This is going to sound stupid, but spirits? What's that?
See, told you I wasn't a woodworker.
And, for what it is worth, I really do like the titebond glue I am using. It is pretty much set in 30 minutes. I know hide glue has advantages, and I am going to use it for the face, but this titebond stuff is just incredibly easy, and strong (I know from when I had to take that one rib off).
Wish I could be working on it right now. Going to have family over for Christmas--my goal is to at least finish the bowl by that time.
Roughly how thick do you guys think the end cap should be? I am going to go with that approach rather than the inlay. This oud is Turkish-size, and I think that is more of the Turkish approach. I actually want to have a bit of a double end cap, if that makes any sense--a cap of lacewood, and then about another 1-2 cm of maple just past that. Not traditional, I know, but what the heck.

Jonathan - 11-27-2005 at 02:49 PM

Getting ahead of myself, I know, but about the neck:
Is that stringer running through the middle of it pretty much a new thing? Do older ouds have that as well?
I was thinking of making my neck out of maple, with an ebony fingerboard? Durable enough? Will I still need that stringer?
I am not sure at this point if I am going to put the thin strips of maple/purfling/lacewood on the neck. I am using a block of matching flame maple for the neck, and might just leave it like that.

Dr. Oud - 11-28-2005 at 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
Getting ahead of myself, I know, but about the neck:
Is that stringer running through the middle of it pretty much a new thing? Do older ouds have that as well?
I was thinking of making my neck out of maple, with an ebony fingerboard? Durable enough? Will I still need that stringer?
I am not sure at this point if I am going to put the thin strips of maple/purfling/lacewood on the neck. I am using a block of matching flame maple for the neck, and might just leave it like that.

The center reinforing stringer is an adaptation of mine from guitar guitar construction. I have not seen any other maker using it, now or before. The main ciincern is the peg box notch no matter what wood is used for the neck. When the notch is cut the neck is weakened considerably and often bends at the deepest end of the notch, making the fingerboard appear warped. This warp will make a depression in the fingerboard causing a buzz unless the string action is very high. The stringer passes through the pegbox and reinforces the neck through the notch. At the neck, it's a convenient way to reinforce the neck/body joint. It can be adjusted for alignment with shims and still retain it's strength, which is considerably more than the traditional butt joint/dowel pin or tongue method. I am planning to make a bolted neck since this method is widely used on guitars and allows adjustment or correction of the string action by mechanical means. The inserts and bolts would require a harder wood, however, but the advantage may offset the added wight. A maple neck is ok, but heavy - especially if you cover it with a veneer of your rib woods ( not a simple operation - I'd consider doing a plain neck). Mahogany is lighter and just as stiff, but if you're covering it, I'd use spruce or pine with a center stringer just for good measure.

The end cap should not be very thick, a 1/32 inch veneer is fine, it only is a cover for the rib junction after all. If you make it thicker the face will have a bigger bulge at the tail end to cover the end cap edge.

Spirits is paint thinner.

If you think titebond is strong, you should read this article.

Jonathan - 11-28-2005 at 07:01 AM

Thanks, Doc. The article was a bit disheartening for me, of course, but, live and learn. I am learning a lot.
If the mahogany is just as strong, I guess I will get a block of that and use it for the neck. I did not realize that it was a stiff wood. Thanks.

Jameel - 11-28-2005 at 07:21 AM

Jonathan,

Don't be disheartened by Ford's experiment. There is nothing wrong with Titebond. Hide glue, when used properly, is superior, but titebond is a fine glue. There are plenty of luthiers who use it. Cumpiano and Natelson use it and they authored THE guitar construction book. What did Ford's test prove? That titebond can release under great stress at 200 degrees. His room temperature test broke wood fibers. That's as strong as you get. So don't use titebond on parts that get the stress, i.e. the bridge. Use hide. I'm pretty sure there is a pic in Richard's book that show him using yellow or white glue (can't tell its not in color) when gluinig the bridge on. It doesn't look like hide, since it's so opaque. I hope the Doc doesn't write me up in his chart for that one!

I wouldn't worry about the titebond. I use it on 90% of the oud. I'm no expert, but plenty of guys use it. Just remember how hard it was to get that rib off, your oud will hold together as long as you don't store it in your oven!

See also: http://mimf2.qwk.net/library/catalog_finish.htm#glues

Dr. Oud - 11-28-2005 at 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jameel... I'm pretty sure there is a pic in Richard's book that show him using yellow or white glue (can't tell its not in color) when gluinig the bridge on. It doesn't look like hide, since it's so opaque. I hope the Doc doesn't write me up in his chart for that one!

I was wondering when you guys would find me out.... It took 3 years! Well, ok I confess I use aliphatic resin glue myself for almost every thing that I don't expect to dismantle ever and used it exclusively in the early years, while I was laboring in obscurity and ignorance. Lately since I got the hide routine down, I use it more and more because it's so much easier to use - no clamping required for instance. You can just push the parts together and it seems to pull the joint together as it cures, where resin glue must be clamped or the joint seems to "float" apart. OK Jameel, I was gonna add you to my list, but the glue link was so good I decided to forgive you this time. I've gotta try that hot rag in the microwave, but I have to wait until the boss is gone, or she'll beat me to a pulp. I was gonna try Frank's frozen hide glue until I asked about putting glue in the freezer - I DON'T THINK SO!
I believe Ford's glue test conclusion is relative strength except in the case of the car trunk on a hot day in Dallas in August, where the temperature can reach the release point of yellow glue. I know he uses all kinds of glue - it's just knowing when to use what.
Then there's the issue of the cured crystalline condition - hide glue cures harder than resin glue and is thought to transmit vibration better as a result. I believe that a good glue joint fit is more important than the glue used anyway (except for white polyvinyl glue - never use it). Yellow glue can be softened with moderate heat anyway for dismantling. I just made a fixture to heat my pallette knives with an old iron and it works pretty good - the highest temperature of the iron will soften resin glue without discoloring even soft spruce.

Elie Riachi - 11-29-2005 at 10:10 AM

On the subject of hide glue here is another informative link:

http://deller.com/newpage8.htm

It sounds like wonder glue.

Andy - 11-29-2005 at 01:40 PM

Have only completed 6 ouds and near completion of #7 but I've used Titebond on all parts of my ouds, yes even the bridge. There hasn't been a problem at all with any of my joints failing. I use Titebond for my delicate bracing too.

Jonathan - 11-29-2005 at 02:13 PM

6 ouds? That's a lot! You should post pictures of them all.

Andy - 11-30-2005 at 09:57 AM

#1 I don't own but in the family, #2 is in K.C. MO. with my son, 3&4 are with me. My best are #5&6. I will post some picts when I figure out how to do it

I think my age is starting catching up with me

Jonathan - 12-7-2005 at 08:05 PM

I kind of like just having the 5 lacewoods in the middle, and all the rest maple (except for the two ribs that are adjacent to the face, which will be lacewood). I did it because I was sick of that lacewood, but I think it is going to turn out OK. If anything, maybe it will make the lacewood really stand out. 15 ribs set, 6 more to go. It looks a little lopsided in the pic, but it is not--it is just that I have completed a lot more on one side of the oud than on the other.
Jameel, I just started to notice, now that I am almost to the end on one side, that I, too, am running just a bit wider than the mould (maybe 1 cm).
I think that perhaps this is because of the way that I am taping the ribs together when they set. I wrap some tape from the back of the rib to the front, with just a very slight "pull". I think that maybe that pull is enough to distort the wood away from the mould. Perhaps I should alternate, and occasionally pull the opposite direction.
Ideally, I suppose, I should not wrap the tape around the edge of the rib. but I just don't feel comfortable doing it any other way.

Jonathan - 12-7-2005 at 10:27 PM

I am going to do some prep work on the neck and peg box, although I am not yet done with the bowl. I was planning on using maple for the walls of the peg box, unless anybody knows a reason why that would not be a good choice. And, lacewood with a stringer for the neck (the lacewood was so tough to bend I figured it would be a good choice).
I am really trying to stick just with these two woods for the entire oud.
I am going to go with Dincer's model for the peg box.

Peyman - 12-8-2005 at 08:13 AM

That's looking more and more better :xtreme:

BTW, if you need a bone nut, I have several I bought 20 from a wholesaler off ebay. I can mail you one (for free).

Jonathan - 12-8-2005 at 08:38 AM

Thanks. Right now, I am planning on making one myself, just so I can kick back and say I did the whole thing. But, I appreciate the offer. I made a bone nut once before--took me two hours!
16 ribs down, 5 to go. Hard to tell in this pic, but I still have to add the one lacewood final rib to this side. The other side is not as complete.
Looks good at first, but on closer inspection you can see the problems--primarily that the ribs are not all the same width. Really obvious with these contrasting ribs, at the neck block and tail block.
Not quite as bad as it first looks, because the ribs have to be trimmed back to the neck block still, and it won't be nearly as obvious. Not too concerned about the tail block area, because when I cover it up with that end cap, it will not be obvious. Gonna do a cool little inlay in the end cap, hopefully.
All in all, I am satisfied.
Filthy dirty.
Getting there.
That glue sure gives the maple a nice glow, huh? Cant wait to scrape it all off and, eventually, put a finish on it.
Really learning a lot this time around. Already got my wood picked out for the next one--all mahogany, no purfling. The purfling has been a headache. I should have used Dincer's approach, but that was not possible because I am not using hide glue (of course, I could have changed that). Applying the purfling like I am doing now always throws off the angle just slightly. Live and learn.
Next time, I am going to skip the purfling altogether, and just let the main wood do the talking.
Lacewood for the neck, maple for the pegbox. Any problems with those choices? Thanks again.

In the pic, it looks like one purfling is thicker, or that the joint is gapped. I think that is just because the purfling needs to be sanded down--it looks ok in real life. No gaps. No light.

Jameel - 12-8-2005 at 02:40 PM

Looking nice, Jonathan. Well, honestly it looks like someoned egged your oud project!

I can't wait to see it scraped down. It's a very rewarding part of the build, to see the bowl cleaned up and ready for the rest of the parts. Wait until you've sanded it down and wiped on some mineral spirits. It's an exciting moment. Boy, now I'm thinking about my next oud project...... :rolleyes:

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