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Oud soundboards

mysticoud - 11-12-2003 at 07:46 PM

Does anybody know why the soundboard of an oud isn't usually finished? I've seen some egyptian ouds that are finished but that's about it.
It seems like the cedar top ouds should be finished.

samzayed - 11-12-2003 at 07:52 PM

I have a cedar top oud made by Nazih Ghadban http://www.oudnazihghadban.com that is finished. (I believe he finishes all his soundbaords). But your're right, most ouds I see these days are not finished.

???

Soundboards

Sasha - 11-12-2003 at 11:58 PM

Gunaydin!

The tradition is that any sort of finsh will 'choke' the pure tone of the wood...

Sasha

Mike - 11-13-2003 at 06:51 AM

All Shehata ouds are finished off with a thin coat of French polish. Personally, I prefer that if it is applied correctly, and I don't think it diminishes the sound all that much. Viken Najarian doesn't finish his oud faces, but he does put a real thin piece of a plastic type adhesive over the pickguard and a large portion of the area below where one would normally pick. It isn't noticeable except if you are up close to the oud. I kind of like that idea too.

Ronny Andersson - 11-13-2003 at 10:49 AM

Quote:

It seems like the cedar top ouds should be finished.

No, that's not necessary. Be aware that the cedar used on Sams oud is not the true cedar. The American so called cedar species are not from the same genus and have a completely different sound. The Lebanon cedar and Atlas cedar are the traditional woods together with different pine and cypress species.

samzayed - 11-13-2003 at 01:08 PM

Ronny, what does the "real" cedar sound like vs. the "fake" cedar?

Ronny Andersson - 11-13-2003 at 02:26 PM

Sam, the true cedar (cedrus) have a very warm mellow tone with a immediate attack. A true cedar soundboard is easy for a trained eye and ear to recognise.
Nowdays is it rare to find ouds made with cedar face and if one find one, is it most likely made in the Maghreb area and then of Atlas cedar (Cedrus atlantica) that many including me consider to be a local variant of the Lebanon cedar (Cedrus libani).

samzayed - 11-13-2003 at 02:44 PM

Ok, so what does my kind of cedar sound like? Is it neccessarily a bad thing to have this cedar, or just not as distintive as the Lebanese/Atlas cedar?

BTW, did you confirm with Ghadban what kind of cedar he uses?

Ronny Andersson - 11-14-2003 at 07:53 AM

>Ok, so what does my kind of cedar sound like?

You tell me.

> Is it neccessarily a bad thing to have this cedar, or >just not as distintive as the Lebanese/Atlas >cedar?

Is only inauthentic if you want to be historical correct. I have no comments about whether it’s a bad tone wood or not. Spruce is also inauthentic.

>BTW, did you confirm with Ghadban what kind of cedar he uses?

Off course not since I only commented you own conclusion (Canadian cedar). I have no idea what Ghadban uses. He seems to experiment a lot with design and woods (uses walnut for soundboard..)and it wouldn’t surprise me if he uses the American cedar since the Turks does it. I saw a Bashir model by him one time with Lebanon cedar soundboard.

samzayed - 11-14-2003 at 08:34 AM

What "history" are you talking about?

Mike - 11-14-2003 at 09:47 AM

Hi guys,

This is turning into a very interesting thread. :xtreme:

Sam, I don't think Ronny meant anything when he mentioned true cedar, and he didn't say your oud had "fake" cedar. He said that it is not "traditional". That's all. (Now if he woulda said fake, then gloves off baby... :mad:

...just kidding) But fake is a little different than traditional. Now I know (from what Ronny wrote) that spruce isn't traditional either, but I believe that is what is generally used nowadays. My ouds have spruce tops, and they sound great to me and anybody who hears them. I am pretty sure your Ghadban oud sounds great too. That's all that matters anyway, right?

Ronny, another question. I have noticed on some of the ouds with cedar tops that I have seen that they have a dark, almost dirty look to them...especially ones that are not finished. Is that typical? And does a finish on a cedar top prevent that? I have noticed that on the Shehata ouds I have that when I first got them, the spruce top was really bright and clean looking. After a year or so, they turned kind of redish and had a nice color to them. So I'm thinking that the cedar top change in color is normal too.

Thanks,
Mike

samzayed - 11-14-2003 at 10:00 AM

Thanks for the clarification Mike. But I don't think we need a referee just yet.

I am interested to know more about this "tradition" and "history". Is this for the Bashir oud, or ouds in general?

Mike - 11-14-2003 at 10:55 AM

No worries Sam, let me know when I should put on my black and white shirt.

Hey, I'm just wondering if you have noticed a change in color for your oud top?

By the way, I don't think Ronny is against non-traditional materials being used for ouds. I think Yaroub uses fiberglass fingerboards.

Take care,
Mike

mysticoud - 11-14-2003 at 11:35 AM

The reason I asked; I was thinking about building an oud with a red cedar top, but I know from experience that red cedar dents easily and should be finished. I like red cedar for its warm and its short "opening up" time, but I don't want to be laughed at if I play it in public.
I thought maybe cedar face/maple bowl; switch up the light/dark.
Ronny (or anybody), do you know what woods were used, historically, on ouds? I didn't even think of using historically correct woods, I don't think I could get them here. It would be interesting to see what was used though.
Thanks.

Ronny Andersson - 11-14-2003 at 12:20 PM

>Ronny, another question. I have noticed on some of the ouds with cedar tops that I have seen that they have a dark, almost dirty look to them...especially ones that are not finished. Is that typical? And does a finish on a cedar top prevent that? I have noticed that on the Shehata ouds I have that when I first got them, the spruce top was really bright and clean looking. After a year or so, they turned kind of redish and had a nice color to them. So I'm thinking that the cedar top change in color is normal too.

Thanks,<

Right Mike, the colour changes and varies a lot on cedar. A fresh cut have a red brown colour and
a smell that is very strange esoteric and both oil and perfume was made of it in ancient times. After wood has dried it gets a brown colour. I have a stock of Lebanon cedar with origin from Middle east and also some from trees grown in Europe. The grain is interesting on cedar, when it ranges from couple of mm to several mm that a modern Western lute maker would hesitate to use. The grain is also rarely in a straight line but more like waves. It’s tone wood that has very different look and sound than any other ton wood.

Ronny Andersson - 11-14-2003 at 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by samzayed
Thanks for the clarification Mike. But I don't think we need a referee just yet.

I am interested to know more about this "tradition" and "history". Is this for the Bashir oud, or ouds in general?

Sam, I know that Mohammad used it on some Bashir ouds, but he used it mainly like all other builders on the classical oud.
The wood became very difficult ot obtain in Middle east so it was abandon. The greatest part of Bashir ouds by Mohammad have soundboard of pine.
I have a video with Omar Bashir playing on a Bashir oud with a cedar soundboard that has a grain that iwould surprise any of your when it's cm's (inches) between the grain.

Ronny Andersson - 11-14-2003 at 12:38 PM

Quote:

Ronny (or anybody), do you know what woods were used, historically, on ouds? I didn't even think of using historically correct woods, I don't think I could get them here. It would be interesting to see what was used though.
Thanks.

For soundboards is the already mentioned woods, different species of the cedar genus and then most likely the widely spread Lebanon cedar and in Maghreb Atlas cedar. Then you have pine species and cypress species. Cypress was and still is used in Maghreb both for soundboards and bowls. I have a reference talking about cedar for bowls and it wouldn’t surprise it where used when it’s just strong as cypress.
It could be possible for you to get Lebanon cedar also in the states when it’s widely grown there. The best method to obtain it is to ask a harpsichord maker where he gets it from. The normal sources for tone wood will not understand you question if you ask them…
:rolleyes:

The harpsichord makers use the cedar for frame and soundboard on copies of Italian models.

Ronny Andersson - 11-14-2003 at 12:41 PM

By the way, I don't think Ronny is against non-traditional materials being used for ouds. I think Yaroub uses fiberglass fingerboards.

Right Mike, I don't care at all. My new oud built by Dr.oud has a soundboard of Italian spruce when it's different the species from the other side of the alpes.

samzayed - 11-14-2003 at 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
>Ok, so what does my kind of cedar sound like?

You tell me.

I don't think I can qualify the sound of my oud's soundboard. I am not technical in the mechanics of sounds or instruments> I am impressed with Ronny and mysticouds' knowledge in this area. How does one begin to understand this? I am interested in this for the next time I purchase an oud

As far as the sound of my oud in general, it has clear projection, not trebbly, and not bassy, somewhere in the middle. You mentioned "immediate attack" on the true cedar, Does that mean that the attack point is slightly delayed on other soundboards? In otherwords, is that the distinction?

Ronny Andersson - 11-24-2003 at 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by samzayed

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
>Ok, so what does my kind of cedar sound like?

You tell me.

Sam, the cedar what I have notice have a much shorter sustain than the spruce, but Allepo pine is close to cedar but lacking the warm mellow sound.

Lebanon cedar wood

Nazih Ghadban - 12-21-2004 at 01:47 PM

Hi
I would like to clarify that historically all oud makers never used the Lebanon cedar wood for oud soundboards because it is an heavy hard wood and contains gum resin inside which prevent it to sound .
I confirm that the soundboard of Sam's oud is a true nice cedar wood.
Generally there are two kinds of cedar wood:
1-the first kind which is heavy and hard like Lebanon cedar it is not suitable for oud manufacturing
2- the second kind is light, not hardwood,and vary in coulour from bright,yellow to dark it is good for oud soundboards
Nazih

Ronny Andersson - 12-29-2004 at 11:11 AM

Dear Nazih, You need to be precise about what you mean by cedar.
The Lebanon cedar ( Cedrus Libanii) is the true cedar specie in a very small
genus with only four species (or actually sub species). Lebanon cedar and also
the other species like Atlas cedar ( Cedrus atlantica) have been and are still used in oud making.
The Atlas cedar is used in Maghreb for both ouds and kuitra soundboards.
Lebanon cedar was also used during the renaissance and mainly the baroque era for
soundboards on Italian made harpsichords. Any modern maker of Italian harpsichords use this wood. There no gum inside since the gum is in the bark and Lebanon cedar has less density than spruce (the European species).
I can give references from several present oud makers both Middle eastern and Turkish and not least historical references if you still are in doubt about the use of Lebanon cedar for soundboard making.
The cedar that is used for guitar making is not true cedar species but a false ones: this wood is mainly from various Thuja species from North America.