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Aquila String Experiences and Ideas

DD - 11-20-2005 at 05:53 PM

Thank you for your experiential input, Samzayed, and your idea for this new thread. So if I understand correctly:

You put an Aquila Arabic set on your 60cm oud and found that the tension was too high; then you tuned it down a half-step and found that the tension was very satisfying. When you related this to Mimmo, he suggested stringing your oud with the Aquila Turkish set for the same satisfying experience but with the strings tuned to standard pitch. You tried that and found that the Turkish pure Nylgut strings were good, but that the wound strings had too much play and didn't sound the same.

BUT, it would seem that comparing the tuned-up thinner-gauge Turkish strings with the tuned-down thicker-gauge Arabic strings should be exactly like comparing the different strings within the tuned-down Arabic set itself: different pitch and proportionally different gauge at the same tension. IOW theoretically these sets under these conditions should behave exactly the same. Mimmo obviously thought that it would work.

So I'm really curious: Did you and Mimmo figure out what's going on and what to do about it? I remember you mentioned collaborating with him on a custom set, using the Turkish pure Nylgut 1st and 2nd, a somehow-modified 3rd and 4th, and the Arabic lowest two courses; is that correct? Can you say any more about that?

And what about others? Has anyone else tried the Turkish set on their Arabic oud? What about your Turkish oud; how are they? And anyone ever tune down the Turkish set on their Turkish oud a quarter or half step? Other Aquila string experiences or ideas to talk about?

As Samzayed suggested, the collective input might give rise to some new sets of strings from Mimmo....

samzayed - 11-20-2005 at 07:52 PM

DD, I examined the tension values that Mimmo posted on this board, and the Turkish set, on 60 cm oud, at standard pitch, theoretically sounds viable. In the configuration, the tension was at 32 - 36 N. I am not sure why the Turksih set didn't work, there must be some other secret factor that I don't understand. I used lute strings once that were at 34-36 and they worked great. When I tune by arabic set down a 1/2 step (which I think is perfect tension) its around 34- 38N. There's soemthing I'm missing

As far as my experiment, I compared the tension numbers of the arabic set, and the Turksih set, and figured out what I thought could be lowered. My theory was that you can lower the plains, since their tension is around 33 - 35, and in other sets they are lower (esp LaBella and D'Addario). The d on the arabic set is high, something like 42N, I figure this could lowered to 38, and I did the same with the A. The C and F I decided to keep as is from the arabic set, which are at 38N. In effect, I am lowering the A,d, g, c' and keeping C and F as is. This is just all theory that I came up with after examining the numbers, it may lead to nothing other than a waste of time, money, and strings. But I am interested in trying this, maybe I'll get to it this weekend.

I know oudman is doing his own experiments, I would be interested in knowing his perspective on this.

I really like the Aquilas though, they sound great in my opinion, they stay in tune, and they are really durable.

Greg - 11-20-2005 at 07:57 PM

Thanks DD (and Sam). This thread is a good idea.

I have had several discussions with other Aquila users and we all love the strings, BUT most would like a lower tension option. Like many others on these forums, I have had very good results by tuning down a helf step. The strings then sound and feel much better at that lowered tension (on a 60 cm instrument).
So I too would encourage the maker of these fine strings to consider making a lower tension set for 60 cm instruments.

I also have them fitted on a shorter scale instrument tuned to concert pitch and they are perfect. For those of us with shorter scale instruments tuned to Arabic tuning, I would urge the maker to continue to keep the current set available.

Regards,

Greg

DD - 11-21-2005 at 10:33 AM

Interesting, Samyazed and Greg. All of this seems to be pointing to an important fact about Nylgut strings: Apparently, especially in the case of the multi-filament Nylgut core of the wound strings, their unique tone, timbre, and texture are very sensitive to differences in tension.

Nylon OTOH seems to be more flexible (perhaps literally) when it comes to the normal oud-to-oud variations effecting tension that strings encounter, such as minor changes in vibrating length and tuning pitch. I guess you might say that Nylgut is sort of like a sensitive artiste who must have the stage set 'just so' in order to do his sensational thing.

So if small differences in tension make big differences in the playing characteristics of Nylgut strings, and oud strings are especially subject to such differences, then perhaps the sort of options available with some of Aquila's guitar sets might be warranted with their oud sets: i.e. high and low tension versions.

OR, since Aquila is such a small company with such dedication to hand-made high quality—and therefore high/low-tension oud-set options might be more than Mimmo and his very few coworkers can effectively handle right now, which I could certainly understand—then perhaps Aquila and some of the people of this forum could collaborate in developing these alternative sets for custom purchase at a premium, as I think is done with Pyramid and perhaps others; people would pay more for the non-standard sets, but they would know what to buy and could be confident that what they bought would work.

Some thoughts, anyway.

You all take care,
Don

syrianoud - 11-21-2005 at 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Greg
Thanks DD (and Sam). This thread is a good idea.

I have had several discussions with other Aquila users and we all love the strings, BUT most would like a lower tension option. Like many others on these forums, I have had very good results by tuning down a helf step. The strings then sound and feel much better at that lowered tension (on a 60 cm instrument).
So I too would encourage the maker of these fine strings to consider making a lower tension set for 60 cm instruments.

I also have them fitted on a shorter scale instrument tuned to concert pitch and they are perfect. For those of us with shorter scale instruments tuned to Arabic tuning, I would urge the maker to continue to keep the current set available.

Regards,

Greg

Hi Greg , I just ordered 13 strings from Aquila it comes in 12 strings and then you buy the other pack of 6 (F) . I got them for Sada El Rouh .Hoping they will be ok. I always buy from the site of Roy T. Cone at UkulleleWorld.com He has the best service , you order and within a few days your order is there.

Best RegardsSamir,California

DD - 11-22-2005 at 10:45 AM

I'm still thinking about what you said, Samzayed. I don't have a string calculator handy, partly because I'm on a Mac and partly because I've procrastinated in researching them and choosing one, but from what I can tell, it would seem that your experiment is likely to succeed. Do you really think you might get to it this weekend (not to rush ;-) ?

Also, I wonder if we'll hear from Elie; it seems to me that he was very much involved with the earlier testing and evaluating of the Aquila oud sets, and also that he might have done some rather fancy density/tension calculating in a post here and there. He might have some insight into the apparent anomaly in the Turkish set's not working with 60cm length and standard Arabic tuning (though I do think that my "sensitive artiste" theory is a viable one!).

I'm pasting Mimmo's tables below for everybody's convenience. [Edit: I inserted the equivalent N tension figures next to Mimmo's Kg figures (by multiplying the Kg value by 9.80665).]

Aquila Standard Oud Sets Gauge/Gut-equivalents and Tensions in Kg [and in N]

Turkish tuning / Vibrating String Length: 58 cms / Pitch: a-440 Hz / Nylgut & Gut Density=1.30
1st d: 2x .60 mm nylgut = 4.3 Kg [42.1N] each string
2nd a: 2x .77 mm nylgut = 4.0 Kg [39.2N] each string
3rd e: 2x wound strings (of 1.08 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.4 Kg [43.1N] each string
4th B: 2x wound strings (of 1.40 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg [41.1N] each string
5th A: 2x wound strings (of 1.68 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.5 Kg [44.1N] each string
5th 5th F#: 2x wound strings (of 1.87 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg [41.1N] each string
6th E: 1x wound strings (of 2.10 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg [41.1N]
6th C#: 1x wound strings (of 2.48 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg [41.1N]

Arabic tuning / Vibrating String Length: 62 cms / Pitch: a-440 Hz / Nylgut & Gut Density=1.30
1st c: 2x .62 mm nylgut = 4.3 Kg [42.1N] each string
2nd g: 2x .80 mm nylgut = 4.0 Kg [39.2N] each string
3rd d: 2x wound strings (of 1.17 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.7 Kg [46.0N] each string
4th A: 2x wound strings (of 1.50 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg [41.1N] each string
5th F: 2x wound strings (of 1.87 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.3 Kg [42.1N] each string
5th G: 2x wound strings (of 1.68 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.3 Kg [42.1N] each string
6th C: 1x wound strings (of 2.48 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg [41.1N]
6th D: 1x wound strings (of 2.20 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg [41.1N]

samzayed - 11-22-2005 at 11:14 AM

DD, I probably won't be able to get to it this weekend, I still need to purchase a set of arabic and turkish set. Also, I am not sure I'll be able to get to it any time soon, I only have one oud, and I hate changing strings.

Although, I do have another oud coming for a friend of mine, maybe I can try the custom set on this oud and how it goes. My friend is a beginner and won't know the difference

For now, I think I am going to experiment with other strings on my oud, and come back to the Aquilas at a later date.

Elias - 11-22-2005 at 12:05 PM

Hello guys!
Really nice idea this thread...
My experience in testing Aquilas is limited only to the Arabic Set and Lute strings sets....personally i feel (little...)higher tension on the 3rd string, only on 60 cm instruments, while my Nahat has no problem with them. Mimmo is producing also a Real Silver set, modelled right on my nahat, wich i told him to make with a lower tension on the 3rd string. I don't know the tension calculation or details of this set cause Mimmo made it with my oud in his hands, but i'll ask him and let you know if there is some difference...
By the way all the tension problems seems to disappear(for my experience)with a Nylgut Re wich sound really good for my tastes and very old style...
I have to meet Mimmo personally in his factory in a near future...if everyone of you has suggestion to bring to him let me know, so taking also my ouds to him we'll try to make all the new ideas concrete...
salamat
elias

syrianoud - 11-22-2005 at 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elias
Hello guys!
Really nice idea this thread...
My experience in testing Aquilas is limited only to the Arabic Set and Lute strings sets....personally i feel (little...)higher tension on the 3rd string, only on 60 cm instruments, while my Nahat has no problem with them. Mimmo is producing also a Real Silver set, modelled right on my nahat, wich i told him to make with a lower tension on the 3rd string. I don't know the tension calculation or details of this set cause Mimmo made it with my oud in his hands, but i'll ask him and let you know if there is some difference...
By the way all the tension problems seems to disappear(for my experience)with a Nylgut Re wich sound really good for my tastes and very old style...
I have to meet Mimmo personally in his factory in a near future...if everyone of you has suggestion to bring to him let me know, so taking also my ouds to him we'll try to make all the new ideas concrete...
salamat
elias

Hi Elias do you have an address if we like to order from Mimmo strings. Does he sells them ? And are they really good. I like to try any strings where i have a lots of vendors and trying all kinds of them.
Thank you Salamat Samir,California

DD - 11-26-2005 at 05:09 PM

Hi Guys, I've found a few typos (where they count) in Mimmo's tables posted above. I discovered them when I was running some of the gauge numbers through the online string calculator linked at the Aquilacorde site (Arto's). A funny thing is that I don't know whether these are gauge typos or tension typos! I tried to verify the numbers with Curtis at AquilaUSA but he doesn't have them (though he did try to help), and he suggests that right now isn't the best time to bring it up to Mimmo, who is way over-busy.

I'm going to assume for the time being that the errors are in the tension rather than the gauge, since that seems more likely, but naturally I'll keep note of the discrepancies and eventually verify that these are indeed the correct gauges. (The gauges in the sets aren't quite the same as those of the single-string gauges available open stock, BTW; I guess that would be too easy. ;-) There are only 3 or 4 typos, and with one exception, they're not off by much.

I'm in process of making several additional tables as I get to it over the next few days: Turkish set tuned to Arabic pitch at 62cm and 60cm vibrating length, Arabic set tuned to normal pitch at 60cm and 58cm and to a half step lower at 62cm and 60cm, and whatever else seems appropriate.

I've just ordered the Turkish set, EA version, to try on my 62cm oud. That should tell us a lot, since Samzayed's oud on which some of the Turkish-set strings were too loose is 60cm. If these strings perform within their 'sweet spot' Arabic-tuned at 62cm, we'll have further corroboration for the apparent likelihood that the ideal tension range for Aquila strings is simply very narrow, narrower than we'd all thought. The up side to this, though, is that it should be straightforward to determine the ideal range and to accommodate it by means of the open stock strings, the 'lute' strings, or whatever might be arranged with Mimmo.

Take it easy and take care :-)

DD - 11-30-2005 at 06:11 PM

Quote:

Thank you Elias,

It's so nice that you are that close to Mimmo and so good of you to offer to work with him thus. We're very fortunate to have both of you there. I would like to ask a couple of questions about the three different kinds of Aquila strings that you mention using on your ouds:

1) Do the wound strings in your lute set have a copper finish, or are they plated with silver?

2) Do you notice any subtle differences in finger and risha sounds and/or textures between the pure silver-wound strings in the special set and the copper-wound strings of the lute set and of the standard set?

About a month ago I became fascinated with the Aquila 'Alchemia' guitar string set with the pure-silver-wound basses, and I asked Mimmo whether there might be an equivalent oud set at some point, so I learned about your special strings at that time. About the gut-equivalents and the tensions: Mimmo said that these are exactly the same for the pure-silver-wound set as for the standard Arabic set, including the slightly high-tension 3rd, but that the actual gauge is slightly less because the silver is heavier.

BTW Everybody, I'll have the tables I promised posted in a couple of days.

Peace and warm regards,
Don

Elias - 12-1-2005 at 03:16 AM

Dear Don,
1)yes, the lute strings are copper finished, but my idea is to try to use real silver on them...the problem is about the 3rd string cause isn'timpossible to make a silver wire so thin for the small thicnkess of a 3rd lute string...let's wait and see....
2)ABout the silver set, yes the silver is heavier so the gauges are a little less, expecially for th3rd that gave us some problems while testing before finding the right dimension...Please just think that this SLIVER set have been made on my Nahat so it is something of very personal tastes about sound and tension and needs...
The lute strings are softer than the silver,they are very thin, the same like Pyramids but with more Bass sounds and less bright sounds. The Silver are brighter then the lute with a lot of presence and volume, but they don't loose the bass output. Of course the lute strings need a softer touch with risha to avoid pick sounds...
salamat
elias

DD - 12-2-2005 at 11:45 AM

Here they are. Enjoy.

(*Note: Since there was one typo in the original tables that seemed more likely to be in the gauge than in the tension, I've entered the likely values for that course in italics under the original values and offset it with the *.)

Aquila Oud Strings, Turkish & Arabic Sets:
Tension in Kg and N at Different Tunings and Vibrating String Lengths

Turkish Set, Turkish Tuning
Pitch: Gauge -- Tension at 58cm in Kg (N) / 57cm Kg (N)

1st d: .60 mm –------ 4.348 (42.63) / 4.199 (41.17)
2nd a: .77 mm –----- 4.019 (39.41) / 3.882 (38.06)
3rd e: 1.08 equiv –-- 4.437 (43.51) / 4.286 (42.03)
4th B: 1.40 equiv –-- 4.185 (41.04) / 4.042 (39.63)
5th A: 1.68 equiv –-- 4.783 (46.90) / 4.619 (45.29)
*5th A: 1.62 equiv ----- 4.447 (43.61) / 4.295 (42.11)*
5th F#: 1.87 equiv –- 4.190 (41.08) / 4.047 (39.68)
6th E: 2.10 equiv ---- 4.194 (41.12) / 4.015 (39.37)
6th C#: 2.48 equiv -- 4.136 (40.56) / 3.995 (39.17)

Turkish Set, Arabic Tuning
Pitch: Gauge -- Tension at 62 cm in Kg (N) / 60cm Kg (N) / 58cm Kg (N)

1st c: .60 mm –---- 3.944 (38.67) / 3.693 (36.21) / 3.451 (33.84)
2nd g: .77 mm –--- 3.645 (36.74) / 3.414 (33.47) / 3.190 (31.28)
3rd d: 1.08 equiv – 4.024 (39.46) / 3.769 (36.96) / 3.522 (34.53)
4th A: 1.40 equiv – 3.795 (37.21) / 3.554 (34.85) / 3.321 (32.56)
5th G: 1.68 equiv – 4.338 (42.54) / 4.063 (39.84) / 3.796 (37.22)
*5th G: 1.62 equiv --- 4.034 (39.56) / 3.778 (37.04) / 3.530 (34.61)*
5th F: 1.87 equiv –- 4.266 (41.83) / 3.995 (39.17) / 3.733 (36.60)
6th D: 2.10 equiv –- 3.804 (37.30) / 3.562 (34.93) / 3.329 (32.64)
6th C: 2.48 equiv –- 4.211 (41.29) / 3.944 (38.67) / 3.685 (36.13)

Arabic Set, Arabic Tuning
Pitch: Gauge -- Tension at 62cm in Kg (N) / 60cm Kg (N) / 58cm Kg (N)

1st c: .62 mm –---- 4.211 (41.29) / 3.944 (38.67) / 3.685 (36.13)
2nd g: .80 mm –--- 3.935 (38.58) / 3.685 (36.13) / 3.443 (33.76)
3rd d: 1.17 equiv – 4.723 (46.31) / 4.423 (43.37) / 4.133 (40.53)
4th A: 1.50 equiv – 4.357 (42.72) / 4.080 (40.01) / 3.813 (37.39)
5th G: 1.68 equiv – 4.338 (42.54) / 4.063 (39.84) / 3.796 (37.22)
5th F: 1.87 equiv — 4.266 (41.83) / 3.995 (39.17) / 3.733 (36.60)
6th D: 2.20 equiv – 4.175 (40.94) / 3.910 (38.34) / 3.653 (35.82)
6th C: 2.48 equiv – 4.211 (41.29) / 3.944 (38.67) / 3.685 (36.13)

Arabic Set, Half-Step-Lowered Tuning
Pitch: Gauge -- Tension at 62cm in Kg (N) / 60cm Kg (N) / 58cm Kg (N)

1st b: .62 mm –------ 3.751 (36.78) / 3.513 (34.45) / 3.283 (32.19)
2nd f#: .80 mm –---- 3.505 (34.37) / 3.283 (32.19) / 3.067 (30.07)
3rd c#: 1.17 equiv –- 4.208 (41.26) / 3.941 (38.64) / 3.682 (36.10)
4th G#: 1.50 equiv –- 3.881 (38.05) / 3.635 (35.64) / 3.397 (33.31)
5th F#: 1.68 equiv –– 3.864 (37.89) / 3.619 (35.49) / 3.382 (33.16)
5th E: 1.87 equiv –--- 3.800 (37.26) / 3.559 (34.90) / 3.326 (32.61)
6th C#: 2.20 equiv –- 3.719 (36.47) / 3.483 (34.15) / 3.255 (31.92)
6th B: 2.48 equiv –--- 3.751 (36.78) / 3.513 (34.45) / 3.283 (32.19)

samzayed - 12-3-2005 at 11:39 AM

DD, thanks for posting these. Please read my U2U. Thanks!