Mike's Oud Forums

Where are all the really old ouds?

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Jameel - 12-18-2005 at 04:11 PM

There plenty of old lutes, vihuelas, guitars etc. that are around from the 1600's. So where are all the old ouds? I know there are a couple from the late 1800's (doc used to have on at his site), but that's not ancient. Old lutes are just as lightly constructed as ouds, so the durability is not an issue.

SamirCanada - 12-18-2005 at 05:06 PM

It could be that the reason for there disapearence is that there might have been armed conflicts up till now in the M-E so there could have been more of them destroyed then in the west?. The Other idea is that people who do own a really old instrument like this probably are hidding it from the public so that the government doesnt confiscate them. Which might also be the reason why the old ouds could be found with the family or relatives of the ancient owners. If you take Farid's ouds for example there mostly with his cuzin I believe.
Thats a great topic tho lets hope that people who have more information can shed some light.

Jonathan - 12-18-2005 at 07:23 PM

Are there any ouds that date from before the early 1800s?

Brian Prunka - 12-18-2005 at 08:13 PM

I don't know the answer to this, but an interesting (to me) side note about music and armed conflicts:

during WWII Germany melted down the original engraving plates used to print much classical music by Mozart, etc. and made ammunition with the metal . . .

al-Halabi - 12-19-2005 at 02:12 PM

The oldest surviving ouds date from the nineteenth century, and even those are rare; no instruments from earlier periods are known to exist. It is unlikely that older ouds are being hoarded – if they exist, at least some of them would have surfaced by now and been offered for sale to museums or private collectors for the hefty sums that such rare instruments fetch on the market. Armed conflict also is not a satisfactory explanation for the disappearance of old instruments in the Middle East. The history of Europe until the mid-twentieth century was far more violent than that of the Middle East, both in the frequency and scale of warfare. World War II alone caused mass destruction and 55 million deaths, and it was preceded by numerous violent conflicts between and within European states for which there is no parallel in the contemporaneous Middle East. I think that clues to this puzzle might possibly be found in some key differences in the cultural attitudes toward music and musicians in the Middle East and Europe. My take on this is conjectural, based on circumstantial evidence, and it would be good to hear responses to it.

The scholarship on the history of Middle Eastern music from medieval times onward stresses time and again two cultural realities that I think are relevant here: the negative or ambivalent attitudes of Islam toward music, and the generally low social status accorded to musicians (with the exception of the rare stars, who enjoyed patronage and prestige). From the early days of Islam there raged a polemic about music and its legitimacy. The more conservative moralists took the view that music ought to be prohibited as a negative force that diverts attention from religious observance, promotes sensuality, and is generally harmful to believers and the community. We saw this viewpoint implemented by the Taliban in Afghanistan, who imposed an outright ban on all music, and also in the Islamic Republic of Iran, which in the first years after the revolution did the same. Recordings and instruments were destroyed, and musicians were driven underground. Although this extreme approach was historically rare, a certain negative view of music and musicians remained embedded in the region’s culture and has been reiterated by men of religion over the centuries. Muslims were openly discouraged from becoming musicians, and it is not an accident that non-Muslims were so prominent in this area, sometimes forming the majority of the musical profession in some localities. (They were also prominent as instrument makers – the Nahhats, Gamil George, Manol, Karibyan, Ohanyan, to mention just a few.). And musicians came from lower classes and were considered of lowly social rank, which added another layer of bias. There certainly were amateur lovers of music from higher classes who played the oud and other instruments, but given the religious objections and social prejudices they were often careful to enjoy their musical passions discreetly. Learning to play an instrument was definitely not part of a person’s education in the middle and upper classes of society until later in the nineteenth century, when this practice began to be adopted from Europe. (Many of these families then acquired pianos for their children.)

In Europe there was a somewhat different cultural milieu that might help to explain the survival of older instruments. In middle and upper class families, learning to play an instrument was considered part of the education of the young, both male and female. These families ordered instruments from makers and often came to possess the high-quality ones. European paintings portray lutes in bourgeois and upper class settings, with both men and women playing them or appearing next to them. In these circumstances the better-off generated a demand for instruments, came to own the finest ones produced at the time, valued them as cultural assets, and were financially in a position to maintain and repair them over time. The fine lutes displayed in European museums today came from this milieu. They survived because they were often of fine craftsmanship to begin with and because they were in a position to be repaired when cracks, warping, and neglect could otherwise have caused their steady disintegration. In the Middle East the better-off did not generate the same level of demand for instruments. The number of top-level, and therefore more durable, ouds in circulation was probably quite small to begin with, which reduced the statistical chances for their survival. What must have happened is that instruments left by professional musicians or amateur musicians were not preserved and attended to by heirs who had no musical interests and were certainly not encouraged by the culture to provide training on these instruments to the younger generation. They ended up being stored away or hung on walls, and over time they suffered the natural fate of neglected ouds. I have seen in Middle Eastern markets and shops broken ouds or parts of ouds dating back to as early as 1911. In several cases the shopkeepers told me the same thing: that the old broken oud they were selling had been in the possession of a family in the neighborhood for years without being used.

One wanders also if the Middle Eastern climate is particularly harsh on delicate instruments and may help to explain their failure to survive for extended period.

LeeVaris - 12-19-2005 at 05:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by al-Halabi
... a certain negative view of music and musicians remained embedded in the region’s culture and has been reiterated by men of religion over the centuries. Muslims were openly discouraged from becoming musicians, and it is not an accident that non-Muslims were so prominent in this area, sometimes forming the majority of the musical profession in some localities. (They were also prominent as instrument makers – the Nahhats, Gamil George, Manol, Karibyan, Ohanyan, to mention just a few.). And musicians came from lower classes and were considered of lowly social rank, which added another layer of bias...


Was this also true of the Ottoman court? I thought music was openly promoted by the Turkish Sultans... are there old Tambours floating around?

oudmaker - 12-19-2005 at 10:32 PM

Al-Halabi
To stress your point:
In 1971 I went back to Istanbul for a visit. I told my dear late Mother-in law that I am playing music and making good money. Here is what she said to me " You are a good man son, you wont do such a thing" and until she died she never believed that I played music for money. God bless her soul.

Lee
I do have an old TANBUR with no identification just my master told me that it is about 150 years old.

Dincer

Dincer

Jonathan - 12-20-2005 at 05:55 AM

Could it be that few ouds from before the late 1800s survived because they simply were not built to survive? Perhaps oud making entered its golden period at the end of the 1800s, and ouds built prior to that time no longer exist because they were not valued as quality instruments, and they were not built well enough to last through the centuries.

There are a lot of ouds from th 1890 to 1910 period, yet almost none before then. A lot of them are in private collections that we hear nothing about, but they do exist. I don't think that it is a coincidence that this corresponds to Manol's rise as an oudmaker. Perhaps he raised the bar to such a degree that all ouds, even those not made by him, tended to improve.

If you played the oud during this time period, there would be little incentive to keep an old, sub-par oud when there were so many brilliant oud makers on the scene.

Just a thought.

al-Halabi - 12-20-2005 at 09:12 AM

Jonathan, It could very well be that Manol raised the quality of ouds and made more durable instruments. But I would find it hard to believe that in a period of over a thousand years in which this popular lute (the Arabs called it “the sultan of instruments”) was being produced across a large region there were no great luthiers who built high-quality instruments until the turn of the twentieth century. The woodwork produced by some medieval and Ottoman craftsmen is of such exquisite design and quality that few today would be able to match it. The same applies to pre-modern ceramics and carpets, whose designs are being copied today. In societies that knew refined craftsmanship in many areas it would be odd if that same high craftsmanship did not extend to instrument making. Most of the ouds made before the twentieth century were probably mediocre or worse. That’s to a great extent true of today’s ouds as well, although advances in technology and science in the last century allow all kinds of improvements in construction and sound quality. The better-made instruments are certainly more likely to survive, but then only if they are given the care they need to keep them from falling apart over time. I sometimes wander what my kids will do with my instruments after I am gone…

Lee, The Ottoman court, and other royal courts in the region going back to the Umayyads and Abbasids, had palace musicians. Some Ottoman sultans played instruments and composed pieces (Selim III, for example, who played the tanbur and took lessons from Tanburi Isak, a Jewish virtuoso on the instrument). Music was played and enjoyed in all kinds of settings, from coffeehouses and public ceremonies to private gatherings and family occasions. The misgivings of conservative circles about music were always there, but did not suppress the continuing performance and enjoyment of music at all levels of society. The leaders of the Islamic Revolution in Iran imposed restrictions on music, but had to give up after a while in the face of the general passion for music (although a new ban on the broadcasting of Western music has just been introduced in Iran).

Historically, the religious debate on music did not result in a general Muslim consensus, and the mix of views on the matter left people to their own devices. Conservatives favored banning all or most music while moderate thinkers frowned on some types of profane and sensual music but generally took a more relaxed view. In the eleventh century, the greatest theologian of the time, al-Ghazali, took on this issue and came up with a nuanced set of guidelines. He basically argued music in itself is not bad; the question is the context and purpose of its use. Music that served laudable spiritual and social purposes – for instance in religious hymns, work songs, communal songs, songs for family occasions – was acceptable. Music that was intended for entertainment, escape, and the stirring of the senses was reprehensible and even prohibited (haram). There was clearly a struggle to figure out how to set rules in an area that was murky and that was not given to easy control from above in any case. Until today there are conservative elements and Islamist groups in the Middle East who take a dim view of profane and popular music as sources of evil. They associate music and musicians with nightclubs, alcohol, and degenerate morals in general. These groups represent an old viewpoint that has been in the region for centuries.

The oldest known tanburs date from the nineteenth century. So do the oldest lavtas (which were bigger than those made today in Turkey), baglamas (which had less frets than they have today), and kanuns (which had no metal levers to change the pitch of the strings as they have today). In Iran the oldest surviving art music instruments also date back only to the mid-nineteenth century.

kasos - 12-20-2005 at 10:47 AM

Thanks to all the contributors for a very interesting thread, in particular to Al-Halabi for [what appears to me to be] a careful and balanced consideration of the interaction between music and Islam.

I've spent a good part of my life as a musician in a variety of Christian denominations (I was raised Catholic, and continue to adhere, but have also had extensive periods of playing the organ or other keyboards in various Protestant churches). One doesn't have to look very long to find many of the same reservations (described as occurring within Islam) about the role of music also being expressed by Christian clergy - rock and roll as "the devil's music" being among the most recurrent themes in recent decades. Although this may be less well known, there are also a number of significant Christian denominations that, even now, while accepting singing as pleasing to God, see the use of instruments as wordly and inappropriate, following much the same logic. The Roman Catholic church, which has, for the most part, encouraged music and, up until the 19th century, at least, has been a major patron of new compositions and styles, has had many occasions where it lashed out against perceived sensuality in music - eg., although the use of an orchestra is permitted, technically, the use of a solo violin in a liturgical setting remains forbidden in canon law, because someone in the 19th century papal curia once thought the efffect too sensual. I must admit to having trangressed this particular boundary many times in local worship services, though I was censured for it only once!

I also note that my father looked almost as dimly upon my decision to take a bachelor of music degree as Dincer's parent did about his career choice.

On the whole though, I would have to agree with Al-Halabi that European culture was friendly to music, including at the highest levels. Inspired by the ancient Greek philosophers, for centuries the seminaries and universities taught the basic premise that the musical scale was a reflection of divine order (the so-called "music of the spheres"). Although one can point to influential skeptics like Kierkegaard, who held that music, like the other arts, was a useless distraction in man's relationship with God, such views have only rarely and for brief periods been implemented on a grand scale (I'm thinking of some highly impassioned moments in Savanarola's Florence, or during the Reformation, but on the whole, though there's no shortage of incidents of repression, mostly political in origin, which claimed their justification in Christian principles, very few of them have resulted in the destruction of musical instruments).

Given my current interest in music from different parts of Asia, I have begun to be exposed to some examples, at least, where music seems to have been integrated into Islamic religious experience - qawwali , and other music from the sufi traditions, for instance. I have also encountered references to the Persian Tambur have been reserved, some centuries ago, for religious observance by groups like the Kurds. Are there other examples of use of instruments in a religious context?

Mark

al-Halabi - 12-20-2005 at 11:53 AM

Mark, thanks for the Christian parallels, which show interesting similarities in attitudes. The condemnation of instruments, and the distinction between "good" and "bad" instruments, can also be found in Muslim writings. The ninth-century theologian Ibn Abi 'l-Dunya wrote the first known treatise attacking all instruments and music. He saw instruments as frivolous and self-indulgent diversions from pious living. The term he used for instruments was 'malahi,' which in Arabic means instruments of diversion or amusement. He obviously had a negative take on this term and so did other writers after him. A fourteenth-century author, al-Adfuwi, applied the term malahi primarily to stringed instruments, which were closely associated with non-religious art music for entertainment, but considered flutes and the tambourine to be acceptable.

Whereas instruments could not be played in mosques they found their way into the devotional rituals of Sufi orders throughout the Islamic world. At the most basic level, drums were used to accentuate the rhythmic buildup of chanting, dhikr ceremonies, and initiation of members into trances. The ney also became a key instrument in Sufi music and ritual. It acquired sacred and mystical connotations, seen as a symbol of the human windpipe and its seven holes sometimes described as representing the seven heavens. The most elaborate musical performance in a Sufi religious context appears in the rituals of the Mevlevi order (the Whirling Dervishes), which use a full ensemble of Ottoman classical instruments to perform a whole suite (ayin) which accompanies the singing and dancing and includes instrumental preludes and concluding pieces. Members of the Mevlevi order were prominent composers of both religious and non-relgious music, and the Mevlevi lodges served in a way as conservatories in which many Ottoman musicians received their musical training. The Mevlevis are an example of an approach to music that saw it as something that enhances spiritual elevation and personal enlightement. More conservative elements frowned on their involvement with music.

Dincer's story about his mother's attitude reminded of something I read about the early experiences of Serif Muhittin Targan, who became an oud virtuoso. As a child he was prohibited from playing the oud, and had to do it in secret when no one noticed. Because of missing strings he compensated by learning to play up the neck on other strings, which built up his technique early on. Dincer probably knows other stories of family resistance to involvement in music, especially as a career.

Peyman - 12-20-2005 at 01:51 PM

Quote:
The leaders of the Islamic Revolution in Iran imposed restrictions on music, but had to give up after a while in the face of the general passion for music (although a new ban on the broadcasting of Western music has just been introduced in Iran).


This is a great thread. I remember when the ban was lifted in Iran. I was 6 or 7 and remember the market being flooded with all kinds of music, specially art music, and musical instruments. At least one thing the revolution did was to breath life into Persian traditonal music which was dying in pre-revolution times as it seemed to agree with their twisted view of Islam.
Like Dincer Usta's experience, musicians in Iran are also looked down upon. For example the term "Motreb" (musician) is a derogatory term. And I think one reason you don't find old instruments is because of this view. Most musical instruments were probably burned as firewood or used to make other things as the owners passed. The ones that survived are in museums and private hands, for example this old kamancheh http://www.davidrumsey.com/amico/amico1096813-105324.html

Mark and Al-Halabi,
That tanboor that's played in Iran is not like the turkish tanbur. It's smaller and has a different body, very similar to the dotar but it's a more evolved instrument. It has 14 frets with 3 strings two of which are tuned in unison. There are no quarter tones. The technique to play is different too. It's played with a technique that's similar to flamenco guitarits glissando (?) technique where all four fingers are moved in an orderly fashion over the strings. The technique is called shorreh (literally, sound of water crashing).

The Kurdish darvishes use the instrument, alongside a daf, in their rituals. They respect the instrument very much, as they voozoo (washing hands as if praying) and then kiss the instrument and put it on their foreheads.
The darvish rituals in Iran are very different than what you see from Konya darvishes. They have their roots to pre-islamic Iran and there are many sects, but the kurdish darvishes have the wildest rituals (Ayin) I have ever seen. It looks like a scene from a heavy metal concert. They have long hair and they bang heads standing shoulder to shoulder as they move in a circle.
One of the famous darvishes in Iran, Moshtagh Ali-Shah was put to death (about 200 years ago) once the imam of the city found out that he had been praying while playing the setar. He was stoned to death by the people. He is credited with adding the 4th string to the setar and has left many songs and poems that the darvishes still use in their ayin.
Well, I hope I didn't digress the discussion too much...

al-Halabi - 12-20-2005 at 02:06 PM

Samir, the eastern churches do indeed have an old and beautiful repertoire of hymns and religious music. These kinds of religious expression, though, were not subjected to criticism in any of the religious groups, including the Muslims. The Qur’anic chant and the various types of Muslim religious song (tawshih, madih nabawi, tasbih, ilahi, nefes, etc.) were outside the kind of criticism leveled at music; in fact, they were traditionally not even classified as music. They were regarded as vocal genres in which what mattered were the sacred words, not the melody that was used to convey them. The reciters of the Qur’an essentially improvise on maqams in delivering their verses, creating a kind of vocal taqsim, but that musical dimension is officially underplayed. It’s the holy verses that are supposed to be the focus of the listeners’ attention, not the melodic aspect. In practice, though, some reciters, like Shaykh Mustafa Isma’il in Egypt, have been responsive to their audiences' requests to repeat verses in different maqams and turn their recitations into something akin to a musical performance. Conservatives have criticized him and others for diverting attention from the word by stressing melody. It’s another example of the blurry line between permitted and problematic types of music.

Jonathan - 12-20-2005 at 02:22 PM

Doesn't there seem, however, to be a clear age line at which ouds either exist, or do not exist? My knowledge here is limited, but it seems as though there is almost nothing before 1890 [I know, Cengiz Sarikus has that one from 1827, and there is another oud offered by another guy that is supposedly from 1880 (I seriously doubt it)].
Why is there that clear line of demarcation, at around 1890?

al-Halabi - 12-20-2005 at 07:04 PM

There is definitely a line of demarcation, with ouds predating the late 19th century being virtually extinct. It is intriguing. The question is whether it has to do with a critical shift in the quality of ouds from around that time that has made them more durable than previous ouds, or with a cultural shift in the twentieth century that has promoted the preservation of older ouds, or possibly with both. The musical scene of the last hundred years has been unlike anything that existed in the Middle East before, and the transformations may very well have helped keep good instruments maintained, valued, and in circulation more than before. The coming of recording, radio, film, and television made it possible for musicians to reach large audiences and opened opportunities for success not previously available. The modern states promoted formal music education in schools and conservatories, and so provided greater legitimacy and status to professional musicians. Easier travel and communication broadened the horizons and contacts of musicians. All this has created a much larger market for good ouds, a market that has become international. First-class ouds inherited by families are much less likely today to be left to disintegrate. Even the establishment of museums in the region, which did not exist before the late nineteenth century, has provided a venue for preserving old instruments (Targan's Manol and Nahat are on display in two Turkish museums).

Peyman - 12-21-2005 at 08:06 AM

I am curious to know where did oud makers get tonewood prior to the demarcation time? Is there any documents or evidence? There is a theory about Stradviari instruments having great quality due to the extreme cold weather conditions that affected the tonewood he used. As you say Al-Halabi maybe easier travelling made it easier for those guys to have access to higher quality tonewood.

al-Halabi - 12-21-2005 at 05:33 PM

Peyman,

The history of pre-twentieth century instrument making in the Middle East is pretty much a black hole. Little is known even about the identity of instrument makers before the twentieth century, let alone where they got their tone woods. According to Cem Behar, a Turkish scholar who has written several books on Ottoman music (and also performs on the ney), the name of not a single Ottoman instrument maker of the period before the nineteenth century is known, and only for the second part of the century do we come to know the names of makers of ouds and other instruments. The most celebrated luthiers of that period of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were the oud maker Manol and the Armenian kemence maker Baronak (Baron). In an article published in Turkey about both luthiers and their work Behar gives a description of the high quality materials and fine craftsmanship they used, but with no information on where they got their woods (walnut, spruce, fir, plum wood, cedar, rosewood, juniper, ebony). Both were extremely selective about the woods they used, especially for their soundboards.

Most of the woods used by luthiers in Istanbul probably came then, as they do today, from Anatolia, which is rich in forests. Another source was the Balkans, which were part of the Ottoman state almost until its end and sold their plentiful timber in the larger region. Trade with India and the East, which was routine throughout the centuries, must have brought in exotic woods not found in the Middle East and the Balkans. It’s quite possible that some woods were also imported from Europe (there was established Middle Eastern trade with Venice, Genoa, France, England, the Netherlands, and Austria for many centuries). In the Arab lands of the Middle East, which were largely deforested already by late antiquity, wood was routinely imported from the Byzantines and Europe after the Muslim conquests in the seventh century, and afterwards from Anatolia after that area passed from Byzantine to Turkish Muslim control in the twelfth-thirteenth centuries.

oudmaker - 12-21-2005 at 09:17 PM

Al-Halabi
Again to back-up your point of " most of the woods used by lutiers in Istanbul came then from Anatolia...."
From the book 'Violin making as it was and is By Ed. Heron-Allen 1879' page 126 second edition
" According to M. Fetis, in his notice on Anthony Stradivari, the maple used by old Italian makers came from Croatia, Dalmatia, and even TURKEY: he goes on to say that it was sent to Venice prepared for galley oars, and that the Turks , always at war with the Venetians, took care to select wood with the greatest number of waves in it, i.e., having the curliest grain, in order that it might break the sooner; that it was from these parts of the wood , intended for the rowers, that the Italian makers chose what suited them for the manufacture of violins"
Remarkable haa!!
Dincer

al-Halabi - 12-22-2005 at 06:32 AM

Dincer,

I didn't realize that maple of Turkish origins ended up on Stradivari violins. That is interesting. I also thought it was funny that the Turks deliberately sold their Venetian rivals wood for oars that wouldn't hold up well. Very clever.

Stefan Andalus - 12-22-2005 at 10:01 AM

Since the history of photography goes back a few decades before the 1890's, I wonder whether photographic archives dealing with the Ottoman Empire might show musicians with ouds. Does anyone know about this?

Stefan Andalus - 12-22-2005 at 10:07 AM

On the Veysel Music site, there iis an oud that supposedly goes back to 1826. There are some really lovely antique ouds on this site from the 1890's-1910's as well.

http://www.veyselmuzik.com/eng/antique.php

al-Halabi - 12-22-2005 at 03:17 PM

I wonder about the oud dated 1826. One tends to be a bit skeptical about this kind of lone survivor, but for all we know it could be authentic. The other antique ouds on the site appear perfectly legitimate. I have an oud by one of the listed luthiers, made in Istanbul in 1921, and it's in very good shape.

There is a large corpus of photographs from Istanbul and the Ottoman provinces beginning around 1870, but I don't believe it sheds any new light on ouds. Most of the photographs were taken by professional photographers and displayed mostly monuments, street and market scenes, and exotic types. They were intended primarily for Western customers interested in images of the Orient. Examples of this early photography in the region are available at the University of Chicago Library web site:
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/mideast/Contents.html.

Many images also survived in the form of postcards and advertisements from the period. An example of a card from around 1900 showing a group of five musicians in Aleppo (including an oud player) is reproduced in the book 'The Modern Middle East: A History' by James Gelvin (Oxford, 2005), p. 107. The photo doesn't really tell us anything new, though, about ouds of that period (unless an oud with a single soundhole appears interesting to us today). I have seen many of these old photos and have not noticed anything dramatic related to ouds. There are some private and family collections, and they may contain images with unfamiliar information on instruments, but I doubt it.

oudmaker - 12-22-2005 at 05:17 PM

I have a Manol dated 1900

Dincer

Jonathan - 12-22-2005 at 05:50 PM

I think that the 1826 oud of Cengiz Sarikus is legit. I have written him back and forth a couple of times about that oud. Who knows, though, how much of it is original. Perhaps its apparently unique design resulted in it being cared for a bit more than other ouds from that era. I really want to see it in person. Hopefully, I will get to Turkey in 2006. Cengiz Sarikus has been very reputable in the few dealings that I have had with him.

eliot - 12-24-2005 at 11:10 AM

Has anyone checked if there were any historical ouds in the German collections that Sachs and Hornbostel had in the early 20th century? They managed to acquire all kinds of old instruments from all over the world, and though many were destroyed during the world war(s), I believe some survive in European museums and such.

al-Halabi - 12-25-2005 at 08:24 AM

Some of the instruments collected by Sachs and Hornbostel as well as other early collectors are probably around in various museums. According to Eckhard Neubauer, Arab instruments assembled in collections include some instruments that date back to the 18th century, and a few even earlier. In his detailed study of the structure of the premodern oud (up to 1500) he relies entirely on Middle Eastern literary sources, and doesn't refer to or draw data from any surviving old ouds. It would have been good to have an inventory of the pre-twentieth century ouds owned by museums. Sometimes small and more obscure collections own rare pieces not found in the more prominent museums.

Musa - 12-26-2005 at 07:55 AM

Hi al-Halabi,

Since the earliest lutes used in Europe were really ouds, before they were modified, it stands to reason that there could possibly be some ouds in European collections even from the 12 and 1300s. As you indicated, their owners were often people of wealth and royalty who cherished them. Looking at the early illustrations is certainly useful, but to find actual instruments would be terrific! This would be a great project for antiquity sleuths.

Salamat,

Musa

al-Halabi - 12-26-2005 at 08:42 AM

Hi Musa,

Unfortunately there are no surviving European medieval lutes, which were indeed direct copies of the oud. The earliest surviving European lutes are Renaissance lutes, which are already rather different in shape and structure from their medieval ancestors. Luthiers who make European medieval lutes have been using pictorial evidence from the medieval period to reproduce the instrument. I saw one such lute used in a performance of medieval music and it was almost identical to an oud. The maker, who is a leading lute maker, told me that he used medieval illustrations and also the oud in constructing the medieval lutes he made. Using the present-day oud is not anachronistic because the medieval Arabic descriptions of the oud show how amazingly similar the instrument's features were to the ouds we know today.

zalzal - 12-27-2005 at 05:19 AM

This subject is so interesting....

Just i found that french master of maqam Marc Loopuyt plays a very ancient oud dating fm 1820th in the cd THE "ORIENTS" OF THE LUTE Nr2.

He writes in the cd jacquet the following:

"Around the sun figured by its rose, the 'ûd is decorated with inlays which are called "Orients" (See Orients du luth, vol I). They correspond to the four cardinal points, the instrument's cosmology, and remind of the universe of the five elements of qualitative physics, whether Arab, Greek, Persian, Armenian,]ewish or other. But just like the orient of a pearl is the reflected light of its subtle matter, the orient of a lute is also the quasi ineffable mode on which it reflects the sound. When l say quasi ineffable l mean that only poetry or symbolics can give an idea of the quality of an orientallute worthy of the name.

The instruments figured on this Volume II are venerable 'ûd-s, and this is how l would define their respective orients :

* TOQATLE ONNIK, Konya 1823: speaks of the solar plexus. Swiftly returns to silence after talking. (tracks 5 to 10, 12, 13). (Track n° 5 is attached)

*KHATCHTOURlAN Konya 1915: articulation and eloquence (track 4).

Two lutes from Alep:

* ABRAS, supposed 1930: sound of dried clay. Likes the night. (tracks 2, 3, 19).
*HAIK, 1924: vigorous and powerful, sharp even (tracks 2,19).

A lute from Damas:
* NAHAT; around 1940: solar, taIks of the plexus and the throat. Nightingale (tracks l, 11,14 à 18).

ln aIl these, the three first courses are equipped with gut strings while the low-pitched are copper spun silk strings. They are played with a horn or feather plectrum prepared following antique triturations. Apart from some rare exceptions in Maghreb, such sound research standpoints exist no more. Oudists have modernized and seek a sound with no attack transition but with long resonance, even though it might be wimp and pretentious.
ln a noble lute, there is both the way the sound arrives and the way it returns to silence. ln any case, in general aesthetics, pretty and beautiful rarely coïncide.
Since 1970, following the great masters of Bagdad or Istanbul, virtuoso soloists avoid plucking too energetically for fear it might have an incongruous popular whiff. The plectrurn and the strings are made of nylon, as are many elements stuck on the instrument for decoration. Of course one cannot avoid the present day, whether in the East or in the West,
but why embrace every lower middle-class common place ? Are artists following or preceding?
The presence of a protection plate under the plectrum, as well as personal intuition and 20 years of associating with authentic masters of tradition, from Morocco to Bagdad via Istanbul and Damas, have for long pushed me on to a different path, which i teach at the National Music School of Villeurbanne (Rhône, France).
The other aspect of this second volume is to show the affinities of the 'ûd and the 'ûd player, within a given style itinerary. By affinities of the 'ûd, 1 mean the company of other instruments: the duduk oboe, the kamânche and rabâb spike fiddles, another 'ûd, the Tek and datf tambourines, the naqqârah kettledrum, the violin, the darabukkah goblet drum, the turki kebir tanbur lute."

Jameel - 12-27-2005 at 10:03 AM

This has turned into a very interesting thread. I did a bit a webcrawling for Loopuyt to see if I could find some pics of his ouds. I didn't get too many, but I did find this one of a Nahat, which looks to be the same as the one from the cover of his Orients cd. If anyone has better pics of this oud, please post it.

Jonathan - 12-28-2005 at 04:58 AM

Zalzal, did you mean to attach track 5?
Does anybody know anything more about Toqatle Onnik, Khatchtourian, or Haik?

zalzal - 12-28-2005 at 06:49 AM

I tried to send track 5 with oud toqatle onnik but it seems that size is over 1mo, so it did not go through.
Apologize, i do not know how to cut a track to keep it less than 1mo.

I found an article of al ahram on a vynil collector who owns "the oldest oud in Egypt," and there is a photo.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/718/profile.htm

Although in spanish you will find small photos for old ouds exposed in moroccan museums or kept in private family hands
http://www.webcciv.org/cultura/etnografia/etno_paginas/etnografia_a...
First two are dating back to XIX century and last one is fm end XIX.

It seems most of the discussion here turned around oriental ouds.
There must te be real treasures in Maghreb as well.

Musa - 12-28-2005 at 08:43 AM

I have a feeling that if someone was to go on a directed search for ouds in the museums and archives of the world, we might see some ineresting results. I once worked at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City. It was amazing what one could find in the basement there! Many outstanding discoveries have been made involving objects that have gone unnoticed for ages. I also have a hunch that an exploration of the vast Vatican collections could be quite productive with regard to ancient lutes and other instruments.

Salamat,

Musa

Sidi - 12-28-2005 at 04:38 PM

Ah yes, the great Ben Harbit** ouds:




Ben Harbits in Fez were Morocco's Nahats. They made ouds as far back as the late 1800s. Sadly like their Syrian colleagues, they no longer grace us with their fine instruments today. Amed el Bidaoui was one of their most famous clients. You can hear him play their ouds in most of his performances. The ouds in these pictures are both pre 1930s models if memory serves me. They can be classified as mid-range models. For the high-end, Ben Harbits made gorgeous models with elaborate decorations and outstanding craftsmanship. Their ouds had a distinctive pear shaped bowl, which was often very deep. I’d love to discuss this some more when I get a chance to soon.

BTW you folks are having a great discussion here, so please carry on.




-SidiM


** Pronounced "Ben Har'beet"

Sidi - 12-28-2005 at 04:44 PM

Here's another Ben Harbit in a museum here in Rabat:

SamirCanada - 12-28-2005 at 05:17 PM

I think one of the DUoud players uses a oud with a verry similar pickgard. I also think it has a cutaway neck feature. Since there from the maghreb its verry likely that they ended up with one.

JC1907 - 1-1-2006 at 07:04 PM

My oud instructor in Turkey, Osman Nuri Ozpekel owns a Manol that originally belonged to Yorgo Bacanos. It could be the one on Bacanos' CD cover. It's dated 1899 inside oud. It's a very delicate instrument, very mellow sound.. I always liked playing that one when I went to his house for lessons.
Regards,

zalzal - 1-4-2006 at 12:59 PM

In the attached image fm a book on moroccan instruments you can see part of an oud benherbit. The text says it comes fm Fes, XVIIIth, and it is laying in Batha Museum. Made of mahoogany, cedar, worked beech, mother of pearl, ivory . Measures L100cm x l37cm x H18cm. It is shaped like a mandolin and tuned with four courses C G D A. That is what it is written.
I really do not know what part of the luth this image could it be.

The dimensions fo the first benherbit oud which Sidi attached "upstairs" are 81 x 18,8 x 36 cm.

On the second oud sent by Sidi, it is written that the luthier is Benherbit Mohammed Ben Tahar also made of mahoogany, cedar, worked beech. It is written that the back of the oud is called Dhar, the rosaces Chemsat and the pegs Kermouda.

On the third image posted by Sidi why is the finger board so white ?? Is this ivory ??? Is it possible ??

Jonathan asked about oud Toqatle Onnik. Toqatle onnik was the grandfather of Onnik the luthier who made the oud onnik at Istanbul. This family came fm Toqat (toqatle means fm Toqat).

Jonathan - 1-4-2006 at 01:14 PM

Thank you very much, Zalzal. The image that you posted is incredible. I wish I could see the rest of the instrument.

I am assuming that you are talking about Onnik Uner, who was also known as Onnik Karibyan, and Kuçüküner, and was based in Istanbul. Onnik Uner was born approximately in 1900, so perhaps Tokatli Onnik was the grandfather, but I think it would be more likely that he was a great grandfather, at least.
I know that Onnik Uner was born in Thesoloniki, but perhaps the family was from Tokat before that. If you know any more, I would be very grateful for any information that you can share with us.
Again, thank you very much.

Stefan Andalus - 1-4-2006 at 08:03 PM

The Metropolitan Mueum of Art in NYC has an oud in their musical instruments department which I photographed (illegally I think) many years ago. My memory of it is that it is an old Nahhat. I have lost the photo! I will be living in the Boston area for three months starting next week, and I will give myself the project of directing questions about old ouds to the people at the Metropolitan, the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, and the various Harvard University collections. Who knows? Treasures may be found. I once worked in the old storehouse of the Museum of the American Indian to get data for my Masters thesis, and it was incredible what there was in plastic bags on shelves untouched and unseen for decades!

Mike - 1-4-2006 at 10:28 PM

Here's one I just obtained two days ago. It's not as old an oud as I think Jameel's question was asking about, but it is still about 80 years old, and in excellent condition. Many thanks to Maurice Shehata for helping me procure this oud. More details about the maker and information about the oud to come later, but here are some photos for now.

Greg - 1-4-2006 at 11:04 PM

What a splendid instrument. And it appears to be in amazingly good condition, considering its age.

Sincere congratulations Mike, a terrific find.

Regards,

Greg

Jonathan - 1-5-2006 at 12:08 PM

That's stunning, Mike. Mabrouk.

Elias - 1-5-2006 at 04:22 PM

Wow Mike! what an incredible oud you found!!
MAbrouk my friend!
please let us know more about this instrument!
salamat
elias

Sidi - 1-6-2006 at 01:51 AM

Hi,

Zalal, thanks for posting more info on Ben Harbit. I actually know the book you mention. it's a small paperback with photos of many other instruments. I wanted to grab a copy and scan it for the members...thanks for beating me to it. :D

The fingerboard in the 3rd oud is indeed ivory. Many ouds were made with such fingerboards, inlcuding some Nahats.

Mike that's a great find, alf alf mabrouk. I'm guessing Jameel Georges here...can't wait to hear more about it. Maurice did a great job digging this out in such a pure condition.

zalzal - 1-6-2006 at 08:00 AM

Sidi, you said you would love to discuss on Benharbit ouds some more "when I get a chance to soon.".

What else do you know on Benharbit ouds, genealogy, family history, quality of ouds, other customers than Ahmed el Bidaoui, whether Benharbit ouds still alife and kicking or all of them just in museums. By the way Samir Canada remarked similar characteristics with one oud of Duoud. Do you think is a Benharbit ??

On a match Benharbit vs Nahat who could be the winner ??

Musa - 1-9-2006 at 10:13 AM

Hi Steven Andalus,

Thanks for taking up the idea of doing museum searches. I see that your museum experience has also led you to appreciate the undiscovered treasures that currently reside in museum collections. I'm wishing you success in your search! Please let us know whenever you come up with something.

Meanwhile, it would be great if people could post more pictures of early ouds from contemporary Middle Eastern and European illustrations (paintings, tapestries, etc.)

Salamat,

Musa

zalzal - 1-9-2006 at 10:49 AM

Musa in this thread you have links to many paintings on ouds (since medieval times, not very contemporary)

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=3095

al-Halabi - 1-10-2006 at 11:07 AM

This last weekend I visited the Musical Instruments Museum in Brussels. It has an enormous collection of over 7,000 instruments from all over the world, of which some 1,500 are on exhibit. The museum has only one oud on display, but it is the oldest oud I have seen in person. I found it particularly interesting because it matches exactly the detailed description and diagrams of the oud made by Villoteau in Egypt in 1800, and those made by Edward Lane in the 1830s during his residence in Cairo. What distinguishes this older Egyptian oud from present-day ouds are its seven double courses and its straight pegbox that is almost at right angles to the neck. (The seventh bass course is slightly above the fingerboard and was clearly used for drop notes and drones.) Today, seven-course ouds are not standard, and a straight pegbox is no longer seen. The shift to the modern 5-6 course oud with a curved pegbox probably took place in the late nineteenth or early twentieth century, so this oud in Brussels is representative of an older style no longer around. It had no label inside, but it could be 150+ years old. Villoteau, who was a scholar accompanying Napoleon's expedition to Egypt in 1798-1801, wrote a long description of local instruments with great professional precision, and he also took a collection of Egyptian instruments back to France. His diagrams of the oud and its parts are an exact representation of the instrument on display in the Brussels museum. (I was unfortunately not allowed to take photos.)

This Egyptian oud is the oldest I have seen in any museum. The oud I saw in the Metropolitan Museum of Art about five years ago was I believe an older Gamil Girgis oud. It was almost identical to one I have. At the museum of musical instruments in the Cite de la Musique in Paris I saw a Nahat on display. I can't remember the date of its manufacture, but it was clearly not as old as the oud in Brussels. This Nahat was restored for the museum by the luthier Wolfgang Fruhe. Fruhe showed me a copy of it that he made - beautiful workmanship, but with weak basses that he admitted were a disappointment although he replicated every aspect of the original precisely.

stringmanca - 1-10-2006 at 12:06 PM

Here's a link to the (English version of the) Brussels museum:

http://www.mim.fgov.be/home_uk.htm

Click on the 'Wealth' link for information on the collection (no oud pictures, though).

There are various publications that you can order with pictures of the collection.

zalzal - 1-10-2006 at 02:59 PM

North of Spain, Near Valladolid, at a location called Urueña
(notice the spanish ñ), there is a "Museo de la Música" .

It is a collection of musician Luis Delgado, very famous medievalist and orientalist spanish scholar-musician.

Here is the link
http://www.luisdelgado.net/museo.htm

The museum owns about 1000 instruments fm all over the world though only half are on exhibition.

Some ouds are exposed. I've never been and do not know the age or quality
In the link you can see a small photo with jus the rosette of a syrian oud (a five ends star) which photo am also attaching here.

I believe is a nahat. What do you think ??

Has anybody been there ?? There are other ouds, two or three more, i think.

Musa - 1-10-2006 at 03:17 PM

Hi Zalzal,

Thanks for pointing out that thread. What I meant by "contemporary" illustrations are those that were made at the time that the ancient ouds where used and played - particularly early Medieval - 1000's to 1300's. This was the period before they where extensively modified into lutes. Some of those illustrations where quite interesting. I hope that people can find and post some more! Also, the Spanish museum sounds like it can yield some promising finds with regards to the ouds themselves.

Salamat we alf mabruk,

Musa

Django - 1-12-2006 at 06:39 PM

Here is my result, so far, from the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. This oud is listed only as "19th century", but since they also have an Emmanuel Venios oud from 1899, and they show this separately, the best guess is that this is from much earlier in the 19th century. I'll try to get more information from the curatorial staff tomorrow. This oud is not on display, and I suspect there are others gathering dust as well. (from Stefan Andalus, who has now become Django).


<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/lbayne/oldoud.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/lbayne/oldoud.jpg

Django - 1-12-2006 at 07:06 PM

And here is the museum/s 1899 Venios. Nice looking oud, yes?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/lbayne/Veniosoud.jpg

Django - 1-13-2006 at 07:28 AM

As I proceed with these museum investigations, I find myself saddened by the silence of these instruments. It is like seeing animals in a zoo. Perhaps the zoo is the only way to keep the species from extinction, but a neurotic animal pacing around a cement cage is very sad. So is a magnificent musical instrument in a glass case, not being played.

Jameel - 1-13-2006 at 07:45 AM

Steven,

Very interesting. Thanks. I'm awaiting more info on that oud from Boston. Keep us posted.

Jonathan - 1-13-2006 at 07:53 AM

It's not the glass cases that I worry about. I worry about the instruments sitting in some storage room in the museum's basement, rotting.
At least the animals in a zoo get fed and treated when sick.
While we treasure these instruments, the sad reality is that a lot of museums (even major ones) store items under less than ideal conditions, including instruments. They simply lack the funds needed. I would rather see the instruments in the hands of a caring musician any day.

Django - 1-13-2006 at 09:06 AM

I've now made contact with the Harvard ethnomusicology deparment. The Head of the department is really interested in this quest, and has put out feelers to a number of people who should know about Middle East collections. I'm awaiting an answer to my query to the Boston Museum. I agree with you, Jonathan. The only musical instruments I'm happy to see in a glass case are those that are absolutely unplayable but still beautiful to look at. A Strad, or an Amati, or a Nahhat or Manol in playable condition in a glass case...no way, brother.

Django - 1-13-2006 at 09:37 AM

The Boston Museum's 19th century oud is 77.7cm long, 31.3cm at its widest, and 15.9cm at its deepest - a rather small instrument. The Museum has a european lute going back to 1699, and a guitar dated at 1623. Oh, for an oud that old...!

Musa - 1-13-2006 at 12:23 PM

Hi Django,

If your looking for a really old oud, it would also be good to put out feelers for really old lutes (early Medieval), which are basically ouds. With regard to the glass enclosed specimens, it might be possible that the museums would let an expert oudi, accompanied by an expert oud luthier, try them out, once credentials have been sufficiently established and demonstrated. This would be even more attractive to the museums if someone could produce a CD or DVD of the results, whereby they would benefit.

Congrats on what you've found so far, and wishing you the greatest success in finding more.

Salamat,

Musa

al-Halabi - 1-13-2006 at 02:54 PM

The Boston Museum had until last week an exhibit called "Sounds of the Silk Road: Musical Instruments of Asia." I didn't get to see it but I have the book by the same title published in conjunction with the exhibit. It includes nice color photos of the instruments that were on display (including the 1899 Manol) as well as manuscript illuminations of musical scenes. The book gives the dimensions of the Manol oud: length 81.2 cm, width 36 cm, depth 18.9 cm.

The other ninenteenth-century oud owned by the museum looks to me like a Turkish instrument. I have seen a couple of similar old instruments in Turkey. The shape of its pickguard was common in nineteenth-century lavtas made in Istanbul.

David Parfitt - 1-14-2006 at 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zalzal
North of Spain, Near Valladolid, at a location called Urueña
(notice the spanish ñ), there is a "Museo de la Música" .

It is a collection of musician Luis Delgado, very famous medievalist and orientalist spanish scholar-musician.

Here is the link
http://www.luisdelgado.net/museo.htm

The museum owns about 1000 instruments fm all over the world though only half are on exhibition.


Does anyone have the book that accompanies this exhibition? Just wanted to see if it was worth buying.

Thanks

David

Jonathan - 1-14-2006 at 11:50 AM

I wonder if this is the same Manol that Mal Barsamian gave a public performance on at the museum in 2005? I assume that it is. In which case, bravo to the museum for letting the oud do what it was made to do.
I heard that, for that performance, it was strung with true gut string, as would be appropriate, and that the sound was stunning. (Any chance anybody out there has a tape of the performance?)

Jonathan - 1-14-2006 at 11:57 AM

Found the link. I am sure it is the same oud. Wish I was there.
http://www.mfa.org/calendar/event.asp?eventkey=19253&date=11-9-...

handiro - 1-16-2006 at 03:36 AM

what a wounderful thread ! enjoy reading it and especially al Halabi , you write some very interesting things regarding the theory why so few instruments survived.

I once met Prince Hassan Bin Talal of Jordan and he told me that there is a museum in Tunis which supposedly has the largest collection of ancient arabian instruments.
Anybody ever been there ?

al-Halabi - 1-16-2006 at 02:21 PM

The museum in Tunis that Prince Hasan mentioned could be the one in the Centre des Musiques Arabes et Mediterraneennes in Sidi Bou Said. The museum has a collection of traditional instruments, mostly Tunisian (I have not seen it). The museum is housed in what was once the mansion of Rodolphe d'Erlanger, the author of the six-volume "La musique arabe." There is a website for the museum which gives photos, descriptions, and music samples of some of their instruments.
http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/Exhibitions/Instruments/Anglais/cmam_c_...

The page for the Tunisian oud is:
http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/Exhibitions/Instruments/Anglais/cmam_j_...

Musa - 1-18-2006 at 10:49 AM

Hi al-Halabi

That Tunisian oud is an interesting example of an oud arbi. Do you agree with the author of the article where he states that it resembles an 11th century lute?

Salamat,

Musa

al-Halabi - 1-18-2006 at 11:53 AM

Hi Musa,

I like the details this Tunisian oud player gives for the structure and tuning of the Tunisian oud, and also his passion for the oud as an expressive instrument. But some of his historical comments are not altogether accurate or clear. My impression is that he is comparing the Tunisian oud to an 11th-century European lute rather than to 11th-century ouds in the region. Based on European medieval pictorial illustrations there is certainly a similarity. He then mentions the 15th-century playing technique on the Western lute as being different, probably referring to the adoption of finger picking to replace the plectrum. Another difference he points out is the existence of frets on the European lute, although he makes no mention of the fretted Tunisian lute that has been around until recently, or the fact that ouds in the 15th-century Middle East were also fretted. A third difference he notes between the two types of lute is the number of courses, but here he suddenly jumps to the 17th century and says that the European lute had 13 courses (the lutes at the time actually came with different numbers of courses, depending on the style and size of the instrument). He is all over the place with these comparisons, but his general point that the European lute developed along a different path in structure and techinque is correct.

Did you notice the odd tuning of the Tunisian lute (C3 G2 D3 D2)? The strings are not in sequence in terms of pitch. One can see why it's a tough instrument to master.

kasos - 1-18-2006 at 01:57 PM

Thanks and congrats to everyone for their posts, this continues to be a wonderful, very informative thread.

Al-Halabi, your point about the unusual tuning of the oud in question seems very well taken. I note that similar tunings are used for the older style of lyras, the bowed instrument of the Greek Isles (very similar to the classical Ottoman kemence). In the case of the traditional lyras, the purpose of such tunings appears to have been to facilitate the player's use of drones. See http://research.umbc.edu/eol/3/magrini/lyra.htm for an interesting, scholarly article on the subject. According to this article, playing style on the lyra changed considerably in the late 19th and early 20th century when professionalized luthiers tried to make the instrument more similar to the violin, with its regular pattern of fifths.

Perhaps, in the case of these Tunisian ouds, we are looking at a similar phenomenon, whereby this specialized tuning of the oud would be reflected in a different sort of playing style (and playing esthetic) which favored the use of certain types of drones.

Regards, Mark

al-Halabi - 1-18-2006 at 03:43 PM

Mark, thanks for the reference to the lyra and its tuning. The unusual tuning of the Tunisian oud (and the Algerian oud, which is similar) is intriguing. There is probably a reason connected with peculiarities of the local North African music traditions that would explain why these ouds vary from the tuning in straight fourths typical of Middle Eastern ouds. Descriptions of the oud from al-Kindi's in the 9th century onward all confirm that the tuning in fourths was standard for the last thousand years. The comments of the Tunisian oud player about the technique associated with this Tunisian oud are a bit vague, but he seems to be saying that it had a rhythmic role, not just a melodic one. It is really the third course D3, the highest one, that seems out of place; the other three courses are tuned in fourths like the three higher courses on the standard oud (D G C). With the longer neck and the common Tunisian oud technique of playing high up the neck these three courses provide two full octaves for melodic lines. It looks like the odd placement of the third course D3 right next to D2 is intended to allow easy alternation of a low note and its octave, possibly for rhythmic or percussive effect. This is my own speculation. I will try to find out, although it's clearly an academic exercise now that this type of oud has been largely displaced by the Middle Eastern oud.

al-Halabi - 1-18-2006 at 05:21 PM

Last week I mentioned the 19th-century Egyptian oud I saw in the museum in Brussels. I was not allowed to photograph it, but I have two diagrams of the same 7-course oud with a straight pegbox that was common in Egypt in the 18th century and much of the nineteenth. This diagram was made by the French scholar Villoteau around 1800, as part of a scientific survey of Egyptian instruments sponsored by Napoleon's occupation of Egypt.

zalzal - 1-19-2006 at 01:01 PM

Any connexion with the anonymous egyptian oud available at the Musée de la Musique at Paris ?? First i Thought 1779 was the age but it is in fact the registration number of the instrument.

http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/masc/?INSTANCE=CITEMUSIQUE&U...

By the way they own a George Nahat dated 1931.

zalzal - 1-19-2006 at 02:59 PM

Well yoy have to make work the link to the Musee de la Musique to view the egyptian ud. Click Collections du Musee, then phototheque and then search for ud.

Nevertheless you can admire the Nahat here

al-Halabi - 1-19-2006 at 03:13 PM

The "Egyptian" oud (the description at the bottom says that it is actually of uncertain provenance - "lieu de creation incertain") looks quite old (the date of acquisition by the museum is given as 190912, presumably September 1912). But it is a standard six-course oud with a curvy pegbox, and so is different from the old Egyptian oud I was referring to. I don't remember seeing it on display when I visited the museum, but I saw the Nahat, which had been restored shortly before that by a luthier in Paris.

al-Halabi - 1-22-2006 at 03:54 PM

Here is another diagram of a 19th-century Egyptian oud, this one made by Edward Lane and published in 1836. Again, note the seven double courses and straight pegbox.

zalzal - 1-28-2006 at 03:12 PM

Just learnt that the syrian oud of the spanish Museum of Instruments Luis Delgado (see "upstairs") the syrian oud is made by George Haik (Alepo 1914). They have also a moroccan oud fm the colection of El Ghilawi(1940) -

al-Halabi - 1-29-2006 at 09:34 AM

Zalzal, we have been finding some old ouds scattered in various collections, but very few so far date back even to the nineteenth century, let alone to an earlier period. I believe that there are probably more nineteenth-century ouds in some public and private collections, but they are likely to be very few. The nineteenth-century Egyptian oud in Brussels is one of these rare specimens, and one that is particularly interesting to find because it displays features of eighteenth- and nineteenth-century Egyptian ouds that have since disappeared from standard ouds (7 double courses and a straight pegbox similar to that on European lutes). If nineteenth-century ouds are so rare, the likelihood of discovering any intact ouds from the eighteenth century or earlier appears extremely low.

Eckhard Neubauer, one of the leading scholars on the history of Middle Eastern music and the author of a long historical study of the pre-modern oud, says that the authentic Arab instruments (not necessarily ouds) that have survived in collections do not date back earlier than the eighteenth century. Jean During, the specialist on Persian music, says the same thing about Persian instruments. For whatever reasons, the Middle East has not preserved very old instruments as has Europe. Nothing much older than 200 years is known to have survived, and if we find even a couple of ouds that old it would be an exciting discovery. It would be interesting for us to keep checking what's out there, but we shouldn't expect any big surprises.

zalzal - 1-30-2006 at 05:51 AM

Thanks al Halabi, we will keep checking, who knows, in Tombuctu, there are arabic handwritten treasures on human civilisation still unveiled to public knowledge.

In any case if few 19th, and even none of 18th instruments fm middle east survived it is mainly because instruments are just the mean which allow humans to speak the divine language of music. The language is allways there. And the transmission of this divine language is done fm human to human, instruments are just the tool.
It is more important to learn and keep the memories of an old musician, who himself learnt fm his 19th masters, who themselves learnt fm their 18th masters etc, than to keep the tool.
So the skill before the tool.....

Well here is a photo of the "oldest oud in egypt". Not dating back to 19th, just one used by Mohamed al Kholai, i think 20th, who by the way i know little on him

Django - 1-30-2006 at 06:08 AM

My wife and I went over to the Boston Fine Arts Museum yesterday. Inside glass-enclosed wall displays, there sat the European lute from 1699 and the beautiful Manol - all strung up and ready to play. Having owned a Manol myself, and knowing what the instrument would feel like and sound like, I found myself having an overwhelming desire to smash the glass and run away with the instrument! Me..a gentle and peace-loving 63 year old composer! I can only imagine what a violinist would feel looking at another of the displays that had an Amati violin! Anyhow, I'm continuing my end of the search for old instruments. I've contacted the orgaqnization started by the donor of the very old oud in the Boston Museum. They're searching records of their founder's donations to other museums.

al-Halabi - 1-30-2006 at 07:03 AM

Thanks, Zalzal. Is Mohamed al-Kholai related to Kamel al-Kholai, the Egyptian author of "Kitab al-musiqa al-sharqi"? The oud in the photo looks like an early 20th century instrument. I have one that looks very similar made in 1921.

zalzal - 1-30-2006 at 09:59 AM

Sorry, my mistake, is Kamel el Kholai.
And this is the link where i found the info and the photo

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/718/profile.htm

al-Halabi - 1-30-2006 at 10:36 AM

Thanks for the link. Interesting to hear Abul-Oyun's views about traditional Egyptian music, and to see that al-Kholai's old oud is preserved in good hands. Abul-Oyun claims that this is "the oldest oud in Egypt." The instrument could be a Nahat; it is in the style of the ouds produced in the early 20th century. Al-Kholai died in 1938 at age 58, and may have acquired this oud in the early years of the 20th century.

zalzal - 2-2-2006 at 12:28 PM

The spanish museum Delgado is creating a virtual museum. Here is the link to the oud.
http://www.funjdiaz.net/museo/ficha.cfm?id=58
(There are lot of pages with world and trad instruments)

In fact is the oud with the five ends star in the three shaped rosettes, the stars are worked on bone.
Ithink they have two ouds in this museum. One by Georges Haik 1914 and this one made on the 30,s.

zalzal - 2-6-2006 at 05:27 AM

Who was the happy buyer of this Abdo Nahat oud dated 1889 ???

http://www.musurgia.com/products.asp?ProductID=1393&CartID=5660...

Ronny Andersson - 2-13-2006 at 01:08 PM

oud/kuitra from the 19th century.

zalzal - 2-17-2006 at 01:30 PM

Curious the oud/kwitra posted above by Ronnie, with right pegbox and almost rectangular soundtable, looks like a one-eyed cyclope....
Is this coming fm algeria ??

Here you have an 'oud given to Melissa Coury in 1959 by her grandmather Nezha Masri which is now in a Detroit museum, Naff Arab American Collection. (Melissa was a talented performer on both the 'ud and classic quiltar).

Ronny Andersson - 2-18-2006 at 02:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zalzal
Curious the oud/kwitra posted above by Ronnie, with right pegbox and almost rectangular soundtable, looks like a one-eyed cyclope....
Is this coming fm algeria ??



Zalzal, the owner in UK, told me the oud is Egyptian but that is most likely wrong. I'll ask her to send me some more photos and info. This lute looks like a Kuitra from Maghreb.

Jonathan - 2-18-2006 at 07:38 AM

Guys, take a look at the cover of the oud on this book--
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0634077864

A Manol. Unbelievable. The cover folds out so that you can see the entire oud. Loaded with original sedef. Original face. Original purfling. You get the idea.

Jameel - 2-18-2006 at 09:33 AM

Wow, Jonathan. That is an incredible oud. Not so often you see a Turkish style with so much decoration. Is this one of John's ouds? Do you have the book? I ordered a copy, but it says it's not released yet...

Jonathan - 2-18-2006 at 09:37 AM

I ordered the book, and they say it shipped yesterday. And I heard that it showed up in a few stores yesterday or the day before.
You have to wonder who an oud like that was made for.

Jameel - 2-18-2006 at 09:46 AM

Who owns this oud?? (the one on John's book)

Just found this http://www.insightsconsulting.biz/Instruments/sold.htm

lot #62. Bears a striking resemblance to an old Abdo Nahat. Also looks to be be quite small

zalzal - 2-19-2006 at 04:06 AM

Jameel didn't you see my post upstairs with this link ?? There are details confirming yr belief that it is an Abdo Nahat. Just i wonder whether the sound quality could be good or rather not good.

http://www.musurgia.com/products.asp?ProductID=1393&CartID=5660...

billkilpatrick - 3-30-2006 at 01:26 PM

i'm posting this because (a) this is a fabulous thread and i don't want to see it go and (b) i love looking at old ouds and lutes ... hope you'll forgive me.

on david parfitt's wonderful site:

http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/gallery.html

... he has a photo of a very old kwitra with the following information:

"The next pictures show a North African kwitra (left), purchased by the Institute from Tony Bingham, London. It is thought to date from the 18th century, judging from comparable instruments in the Royal College, London and Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna."

here's a photo of it:

http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/gallery/franke3a.jpg

- bill

sam81dc - 3-30-2006 at 07:56 PM

I have seen some old ouds in Antique place in Damascus, Syria. , they are in 1800s, Dont think I ever seen any in 1700s. Im looking to buy couple of them, one of them are made by Nahat.

Some people own old ouds but dont know the value of them.

One guy that I know he ouds music shop downtown of Damascus, said that he offten get people offering him old old for resaonable prices.


I think its not too hard to find old ones if you look in the right place.

billkilpatrick - 4-3-2006 at 01:39 PM

no photo but here's an oud drawing made by eugène delacroix in 1832:

billkilpatrick - 4-4-2006 at 08:58 AM

here's another oldie/oudie:

http://www.locatiantiques.com/navigation-page/display.cfm?IDitem=20...

there are several photos of this much reduced oud - including this:

SamirCanada - 4-4-2006 at 09:03 AM

Looks like a Nahat but the label says otherwise.
I never heard of this maker on the forrums.
its made in 1921 or 1931

Jonathan - 4-4-2006 at 11:22 AM

Wasn't that one on ebay a while back? Who is the maker, Samir?

al-Halabi - 4-5-2006 at 01:22 PM

The maker is the Arja brothers. Part of the place name is torn up, but looks like Tripoli in Lebanon (Trablus Sham).

billkilpatrick - 4-6-2006 at 09:02 AM

hoping to find a nice, detailed photo of some soulful, ancient oud, gathering dust in a neglected display case in some obscure, out-of-the-way, middle-eastern museum ... i placed "shamsiya oud" in my google engine and 96 items popped up!!! ...

... 3 of which had nothing to do with ouds at all; 3 came from dr. oud and the remaining 90 hits all came from mike's!

i don't think i can keep this up - cyberspace appears to have failed rather badly with oldie ouds.

- bill
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