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Oud/Barbat in Iran

David Parfitt - 11-22-2003 at 10:06 AM

Hi Everyone

I just wanted to ask whether anyone knows of any CDs by Iranian oud/barbat players. I visited Iran last year and ouds seemed to be quite readily available, although they were certainly not as popular as the tar or setar. However, Iranian oud players seem to be strangely under-represented on CD compared to the number of tar CDs available (especially as the oud may have originated in Persia!).

The only Iranian oud CDs I have are by Hossein Behroozia-Nia ('Kohestan' and 'Midnight Sun'

, although he lives in Vancouver. I know he also has a couple more CDs and some cassettes available. I understand there is a CD by a guy called Shahidi, but as far as I remember the sound quality is really bad with an awful echo.

Does anyone know of any more?

David

P.S. You can check out Behroozi-Nia at http://www.barbat.us and his CD 'Kohestan' is available at http://www.iranmelody.com. The 'Midnight Sun' CD should be fairly easy to track down.

Mike - 11-22-2003 at 11:44 AM

Hi David,

Check the Oudism Page to hear a few tracks for Shahidi. I think I read before that he is in Colorado. I believe it was Doc O. who has his information.

Take care,
Mike

Iranian Oud players

Dr. Oud - 11-24-2003 at 09:14 AM

I'm afraid I don't have any contact info about AbdulWahab Shahidi. He should be in his 80"s, and seems to have dropped out of the music scene.
I find the oud on many recordings in ensemble, but did not find any solo oud recordings while I was in Iran either.
Arselan Kamkar plays oud on the Kamkar Family recordings, and Mohammed Reza Shajarian often has an oud player in his recordings and concerts.
I saw a few ouds in Iran and met Mohammed Arafati in Tehran, who makes some of the best ouds I've ever seen and played.

Ronny Andersson - 11-24-2003 at 09:48 AM

I saw a picture once of AbdulWahab Shahidi playing an oud by Fadel.

oud/barbat in Iran

boulouti - 12-3-2003 at 11:30 AM

You'll see a portrait of the artist (born 1921) at http://www.ece.ubc.ca/~mohammad/persianmusic1.htm
He is on the Ocora LP Musique Persane OCR 57 (rec August 1971) together with Jalil Shahnaz (tar) Asqar Bahari (kamanche) Hasan Hahid (nay) and Hoseyn Tehrani (tombak). He both sings and plays oud. A beautiful singer by the way. I also recently stumbled on a cassette issued in his name by Caltex records (C213) which contains two long Dastgah with what sounds like the same ensemble as above.

oud/barbat in Iran

boulouti - 12-3-2003 at 11:32 AM

Sorry folks - addition and correction - Hasan Nahid is the nay player's name. And if your'e web-searching, Shahidi's name is spelt: Abdolvahhab Shahidi

Iranian Oud-makers

kamran - 2-17-2004 at 03:15 PM

Just to add to the discussion here on Iranian oud makers... there are a few well known oud makers in Iran, including the abovementioned Mr. Arafati -- I now own one of his instruments and (although perhaps biased) can testify that I think they're among the best I've found, and I really love the instrument I have from him. The other name that is often mentioned in Tehran is Nariman. From what I understand there are two Narimans, a father (now deceased) and his son. They are Iranian Armenians, and well known as luthiers and teachers in Tehran. The father's Ouds are apparently excellent work, although I only was able to find one instrument in a shop, and thought it was only about average, but that might not have been a representative work. I don't know much about his son, other than the fact that he's still active as a teacher -- I had heard he was an instrument maker, but saw no examples of his work in the shops I visited.

There is a yahoo-group dedicated to the Barbat (the Persian name for Oud) which does have some pictures of Mr. Arafati and some of his works, and some d/l-able files, but much of the discussion and content is about Arabic and other Oud players.

Shahidi does have some solo records, or rather, solo accompaniment to his singing. He's not that famous as an instrumentalist, but more so as a singer and songwriter. I've not seen any of the solo works on CD - I remember hearing them as a child in Iran on cassette.

Kamran

David Parfitt - 2-18-2004 at 12:13 AM

Dear Kamran

Thanks for this detailed information. Could I just ask you whether you have the addresses of any shops you visted in Tehran that sell ouds/barbats? I am travelling to Iran in May and hopefully I will get time to browse in some shops. [Richard Hankey (Dr. Oud) has already given me Arafati's address]

Perhaps you could also give me some more details of the Yahoo group that you mentioned.

Best wishes

David

Jameel - 2-18-2004 at 08:50 AM

Kamran,

We would love to see some pics and some sound files of Arafati's oud that you have. :applause:

nadir - 2-18-2004 at 09:10 AM

dont forget to bargain in iran dave

mavrothis - 10-15-2005 at 02:56 PM

Hi guys,

I just met some musicians in Brooklyn from Iran, and one girl has a beautiful oud by Mr. Arafati. It was really well made and played very sweetly. The string length is just a touch longer than a Turkish length, and the sound is heavenly. Definitely recommended. He also seems to have very nice cases that are affordable. I'm looking into ordering one for a Turkish oud.

If anyone ever gets a chance to play one of his ouds, go for it!

mav

sara_vatanabadi - 12-4-2005 at 08:19 PM

hi every body

i'm sara and i play oud.actually i 'm studieng irainian music at art university in iran.i can help u to get informations about oud.my oud is arafati too.

sara

John Erlich - 12-4-2005 at 09:50 PM

Hi Meeka,

I heard Ostad Shahidi perform in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2001 (if I remember correctly) and managed to get his phone number for some aspiring Denver area oudis.

I might still be able to dig it up. Master Shahidi teaches only in Persian (not confortable enough with his English to teach oud in English).

Khoda Hafez,
John

Dr. Oud - 12-5-2005 at 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Parfitt
Dear Kamran

Thanks for this detailed information. Could I just ask you whether you have the addresses of any shops you visted in Tehran that sell ouds/barbats? I am travelling to Iran in May and hopefully I will get time to browse in some shops. [Richard Hankey (Dr. Oud) has already given me Arafati's address]

Perhaps you could also give me some more details of the Yahoo group that you mentioned.

Best wishes

David

Arselan Kamakar teaches oud in the Kamkar,s school in Tehran and is very helpful. Between all the Kamkar family they know pretty much every instrument maker, player and teacher in Iran, I bet.

Khune Kamkar
3 Nakisa st. 3rd floor
Kavoosifar ave. A
Tehran, Iran
9821 873 5986
info@kamkars.net
Www.Kamkars.Net

There is a large community of Iranian muscians on the Orkut network
https://www.orkut.com/GLogin.aspx?done=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.orkut.com%2F
there are several music groups, including a Barbat group. Most of it is in Farsi, but some english is used.

the Yahoo Barbat group is
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/barbat/

Here'sis a picture of M. Arafati at an exhibition

Baharian - 12-5-2005 at 09:37 AM

Hello,
While Mr. Arafati's ouds are of descent quality, his prices are outrageously expensive and you will end up paying alot for them. The next question one needs to ask himself when buying an oud in iran is if he wishes to buy an Oud or a Barbat. The barbat has a much longer neck as well as on an face extension), 5 courses and is tunned much similar to arabic as cgDAG. The oud is just like any other arabian oud and so why would anyone buy an oud in iran when they can buy it in an arab country prehaps of better quality.
As far as builders go, again I would not recommend arafati because his prices are very high. Master Ghanbari as most iranians agree is one of the best instrument makers. unfortunately because of his old age he has retired and furthermore, its illegal to bring his pieces out of the country. He has 2 students, Mallekshahi who lives in karaj (2 hour drive from tehran, or go by metro) or the Mohammadi brothers(who have a workshop in esfahan).
goodluck, and really, remember to bargain and go with an iranian for when they smell foreign blood, there is no telling how much you'll get ripped off.

khoda hafez

Dr. Oud - 12-5-2005 at 11:17 AM

Mr. Baharain -
I don't understand what you consider expensive. When I was in Tehran in 2001, Arafati was selling his ouds for $600. I would consider this a bargain. I have not seen the equal of his quality of workmanship and mastery of playability and tone for less than $2000 elsewhere, including Egypt, Lebanon or Turkey. He is an honorable man and does not enagae in any sort of rip off, indeed I found few merchants in Iran who were not generous and straightforward in dealing with me. If you intend to promote Mr. Ghanbari, please do it without making inappropriate remarks about someone else. Perhaps you could also identify yourself and present your credentials for making these judgements?

Baharian - 12-5-2005 at 12:10 PM

My dear fellow, I have not insulted anyone here. I know that even 8 years ago, he was selling ouds at a price double that of ghanbari with fairly the same quality. Your statement above only tells me that you have not dealt with many oud makers in iran.
secondly, merchants in iran, specially instrument sellers, raise the price to double if not triple when they hear that it is going outside of the country. This is a fact which any one who has dealt with them would agree.
lastly, i am not promoting any one here. frankly, i have nothing to lose or gain wether this lad buys an instrument from arafati, or mohammadi or whomeverelse.

sara_vatanabadi - 12-5-2005 at 12:34 PM

hi again

i'm afraid that i'm not good at english.plz don't laugh at mee.

do u khow mr.ebrahimi he plays oud too and hi is my master.he has his own methodes of training and he pleys professionaly.he tamed the oud

khoda hafez(bedrood)

David Parfitt - 12-5-2005 at 01:11 PM

Quote:

merchants in iran, specially instrument sellers, raise the price to double if not triple when they hear that it is going outside of the country. This is a fact which any one who has dealt with them would agree.

This is a sweeping generalisation and utter nonsense. I bought a tar and a setar in Iran, and paid the price that was on the label. When the owner of the shop found out that I was English and interested in Persian music, he threw in a stack of teaching materials (books, cassettes) too.

David

Wm. De Leonardis - 12-5-2005 at 02:40 PM

All,

I thought I'd interrupt the rising tension with a bit of music...

Here’s a portion of Nariman playing oud with tombak accompaniment. The piece itself is over thirty minutes, so I can’t post it in its entirety. I thought you might all enjoy hearing a small bit, though. I have other recordings of Persian oud; however, they are on cassette and my tape deck’s been broken for a while. When I can, I’ll post some other recordings.

Caltex records has a few Shahidi CD’s available, including one that’s solo oud. Unfortunately, as someone else mentioned, there is a terrible amount of echo on the recording. Shahidi is a terrific oud player but he is much more known for his voice and compositions, so there is little of him just playing oud. All the Caltex stuff is worth owning, though, and last time I looked, they had a deal to get all of his CD’s for a real cheap price. A few years ago he released a CD called “Come With Me,” which is terrible—the producer added slick keyboard arrangements.

Hossein Behroozia-Nia’s recordings are fairly easy to find. He also plays with the Dastan ensemble and Dastan trio. I highly recommend any of their recordings, which you can find at places like amazon.com.

Cheers,
William

PSab - 12-5-2005 at 04:24 PM

If I may comment on something here, It is fairly common practice for iranian merchants to raise the price when they ralize it being bought by a foreigner or going to another country. This is common practice i think for all countries not just iran (specially on items bought over the internet, forexample i remember there was a website a while ago saz o nava whose prices were very high). This being said, I think that it is unfair to judge mr. arafati in this way. It is true that his prices are somewhat more expensive than other makers but so is the quality of his products. first of all, he is one of the greatest oud makers in iran who has been doing this for a long time, and secondly everything is more expensive in tehran. You mentioned maziar malekshahi and mohammadi brothers, the prices for the mohammadis are half of those of malekshahi, this is because of location and that his shop is fairly new and he has not built up a reputation. Yet mr. mohammadi raises his prices by 10% everyyear.

Finally, I wish to ask Dr. Oud what he thinks of ouds made by master Ghanbarimehr?

Dr. Oud - 12-5-2005 at 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PSab...Finally, I wish to ask Dr. Oud what he thinks of ouds made by master Ghanbarimehr?

I have not seen M. Ghanbarimehr's ouds. i was in Iran month, including Esphahan, Shiraz and Karaj. I have nephews in SHiraz who are musicians and they didn't know where to find ouds there. One of their friends gave me a cassette tape, but he said it was Arabic. I went to a music bazaar in Shiraz and there were no ouds there. I found a music store in Esphahan, but no ouds or barbat. I did find a long necked barabt in Tehran, but the quality was poor and not worth the $200 (140,000 tooman). I found Arafati through Arselan Kamakar and Arafati's ouds are worth every penny (or tooman). He has solved the msytery of brace locations through mathmetical analysis and every one of the 5 ouds he had were among the best I've ever played, and I've played a few. Unfortunately by the time I found him I had spent my instrument budget, but I did get a wonderful santur from Dairush Saleri - the best.

Peyman - 12-5-2005 at 09:36 PM

I think quality instrument makers deserve every penny (or toman) they get too.
I didn't know Ghanbari made ouds. I only knew him as a fine (the finest in Iran) violin maker. He also builds very fine kamanches and has innovations in building setars and tars.
Also Nariman.mp3 (posted kindly by Wm. De Leonardis) is not the same Nariman as the instrument maker.
Mansoor Nariman is the musician most responsible to give life to oud playing in iran starting in the 1950's or so (the oud was dead from the Safavi era on in Iran). His real name is Eskandar Ebrahimi Zanjani. His father was a setar-tar teacher and he picked up the oud at 18. There were no teachers so he basically learned from whatever media he could get from the neighbouring countries (I guess Arabic movies would be one, very poplular in the 50's-60's as my father attests). He then wrote a letter to Mohammad Abdol-vahab to tell him more. He also corresponded with Monir Bashir as well. My father has some of the 'Golha' tapes where people like Nariman and Shahidi played weekly. The series under varying names contains treasures of persian music played by some of the best, and I hope some one takes the time to remaster them.
Anyway, Nariman the instrument maker was of Armenian descent and he died in the 60's I believe, while still in his prime. He is considered an old school master, with people like Yahya, Eshghi and so on. As I mentioned before he built staved tanboors without a mold.
http://www.sazmuseum.ir/english/detail.asp?id=373

Jonathan - 12-5-2005 at 10:08 PM

Nariman was mentioned in an earlier post. I know that there is an I oud player named Mansour Nariman--is he related to (or one of) the oud makers mentioned above? Any further info would be appreciated.
There are some tracks that include Mansour Nariman on this site:
http://astaneh.com/page12.html
search about one third the way down the page. Unfortunately, the oud tends to be relegated to the background. Still, beautiful music.

Peyman - 12-6-2005 at 07:50 AM

As I said they are not blood related. Mansoor's (the oudist) real name is Eskandar Ebrahimi Zanjani from Mashhad (I think) and the oud maker's full name is Nariman Abnoosi who was of Armenian descent, lived in Tehran most of his life.
At age 14, Mansoor, already a good musician, becomes interested in reviving the oud and in search of an oud comes to Tehran where he meets Nariman the luthier. Nariman was already famous for his instruments (tanboor, chogoor, setar, ghanoon etc) and he builds an excellent oud based on some profiles he had and gives it to Mansoor. Eskandar gives himself the allias 'Nariman' after this out of respect for Nariman the luthier.
This is about 50 years ago and that oud is still played by Mansoor.

http://www.hamshahri.org/hamnews/1383/830328/world/008841.jpg

Jonathan - 12-6-2005 at 08:01 AM

Sorry, Peyman, I missed that part. This is an interesting thread. Thanks a lot for the information.

Wm. De Leonardis - 12-6-2005 at 09:34 AM

Peyman,

Thanks for all that information! I had no idea that the Mansoor Nariman wasn't the same individual as the luthier...

Mansoor Nariman has a score book out called (in English, at least) "Pieces for Lute). A friend of mine picked me up a copy last time she went home to Tehran. If I can find a scanner, I'll post one of the piece in the score section.

Do you, or anyone else on the forum, know if there's a recording of the complete radif with oud/barbat? I have one set that has a few gushees performed on oud, but the majority of it is tar/setar/kemancheh/santur/ney.

All the best,
William

Wm. De Leonardis - 12-6-2005 at 09:37 AM

I forget to ask: Does anyone have the book by Hossein Behroozia-Nia? I'm not certain of the title, but I think it's an overview of the barbat and some scores. It's not listed on his web-site, but I've seen it listed elsewhere.

WmD.

Peyman - 12-6-2005 at 10:44 AM

You're welcome. To my knowledge a specific radif recording for oud/barbat doesn't exist.
If you're interested in the radif and dastgah you should take a look at "The Dastgah Concept in Persian Music," by Farhat, available in Amazon. It isn't written for a specific instrument. It's very comprehensive.
I have one of Behrooznia's books. It's the score for Koohestan, one of his barbat albums, based on folk melodies. The other one, 10 pieces for the barbat is new, based on his other album 'midnight sun.'
http://www.iranhmusic.com/service.aspx?id=8

stringmanca - 12-7-2005 at 10:56 AM

I have a CD by Hossein Farjami called "Traditional Folk Music From Iran". The title is a bit misleading, as the compositions are mostly his. He mainly plays santoor, but also plays oud on a couple of cuts. It's got some pretty cool tunes on it. He lives in London, I believe.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000001IMD/ref=m_art_...

Nathan

PSab - 12-7-2005 at 05:01 PM

peyman, yes, Mr. Ghanbari made (he doesnt any more) ouds as well. infact, he is given credit for the long necked barbat. also, he uses varnished wood for a face which in my opinnion is better because the face doesnt get dirty then and it doesnt affect the quality of the sound. His ouds still have a beautiful echo (listen to Ostad behroozinia's later recordings on the long necked barbat).

next, WMd lets make a trade. I can scan some of the gushehs from my radif books (you tell me if you want mirza abdollah, hosseingholi or maaroufi) as well as any piece which you want and inreturn you scan and put up some (if not all??) the pieces by mansoor nariman?

lastly, last year i read an interview done with mr. nariman where he mentioned that he is working on a barbat version of radife musa maroufi where the gushehs have been rewritten to be more suitable when played by the oud. (This is the standard radif book that he uses to teach out of.)

Peyman - 12-8-2005 at 08:05 AM

I thought the long necked barbat was by Mohammadi from Esfehan, because of an interview with Behrooznia where he mentioned the Mohammadi's building him ouds. I am curious to know how many ouds Ghanbari has ever made.

PSab - 12-8-2005 at 09:09 AM

no, mohamamdi in esfahan is one of ghanbair's students. His workshop is farily new. Because of the reasonable prices and the quality of the work, ostad behroozinia refers people to mohammadi. (I bought a barbat from him 5 months ago for a million toman)
I dont know exactly how many ouds Mr. Ghanbari has made I know the oud Ostad behroozinia performs on is made by him (earlier this year) Also I know he made a couple of ouds with a skin top on them as well. Here is a couple of pictures of them on a website of another one of Mr. Behroozinia's students:
http://www.oudmajid.com/ouds.html

Peyman - 12-8-2005 at 12:20 PM

I didn't realize these ouds were ghanbaris. I had seen the site. I am curious to know what the skin top sounds like. There are setars made by Peymani that are partially covered with skin (gharibaneh). There is also sallaneh played by Alizadeh in one of his albums. It's stringed like a tar but with 6 courses (12 strings total) and is played with the nails.
http://www.persianartmusic.com/images/News/Salaneh.JPG
It looks a lot like a lavta.

Dr. Oud - 12-10-2005 at 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PSab...I know the oud Ostad behroozinia performs on is made by him ....
http://www.oudmajid.com/ouds.html

The Barbat Behrouzinia plays is unlike any shape I've seen. He told me it was from a historical painting, but I haven't seen any painting resembling this instrument. Does anyone know the origin of this design?

Peyman - 12-10-2005 at 09:16 AM

I am curious to learn more about this too. I posted my thoughts in this thread:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2472#pid194...
Interpretations of ancient paintings vary so much. This picture shows a barbat too:
http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/54_folder/54_photos/5...
The middle instrument. I think it's the closest thing to pictures I have seen (I have seen a lot of old persian paintings because my father is a painter and he has many books,) but I have never seen a barbat that looks like Mr. Behrooznia's in any picture. Mr Behrooznia's instrument looks like a lavta. In one interview he said that the long neck allows him to have access to higher notes. His original instrument was the tar and he picked the oud secondary. Maybe the longer neck suits his original training better. His instrument has a great sound too. Next time he comes for a tour on the east coast, I'll try to find out more directly from him.

PSab - 12-13-2005 at 07:10 PM

I talked to ostad behroozinia today, and asked him specifically which paintings he was talking about. he showed me quite a lot pictures of barbats (very similar to that which peyman had posted) that had a small body and a long neck. He also showed me a few pictures of european lutes (which come from the barbat) which looked exactly as the current "long necked" barbat recreated by Mr. Ghanbari except they had frets. I guess the point is that before the arab invasion of iran, this instrument had a smaller body and a longer neck, Once the arabs invaded and took this instrument back to arabia, the body of this instrument became bigger and the neck became smaller. He also commented on masjedeh Jomeh (an old mosque) in esfahan which has drawings of persian players and the oud shown in this mosque is similar to that recreated by Mr. Ghanbari. Also works of the persian musician Zaryab (known in spain as ziryab) defend this claim.

Peyman - 12-14-2005 at 02:21 PM

Thanks PSab. Do you live in canada to be able to be close to Mr Behrooznia?

PSab - 12-14-2005 at 08:10 PM

I live in vancouver.

Mortys - 7-12-2009 at 01:56 AM

Hi,
I'm really new to this webtalk. It looks cool and nice discussions about iranian barbat.
It is a long time that i wanted to have a professional barbat, like 5 years, that was actually the begining of my research about the oud- and barbat makers in Iran.
To make a long story short, finally a year ago i came after who are the best oud- and barbat makers in Iran.
I have one barbat made by Mohammadi bros, fully ornated. It is a master piece of art. It took him a year to have it finished. According to him, this barbat is the best one he's ever made, Ostad Behroozinia has also got two Barbats made by him, but less ornated as this one.
Now i officially work with barbat makers in Iran to promote iranian instrument-making art.
Ofcourse, any good and professional instrument is not cheap, and that is okay, 'cause it is an art.
Like acoustic or classic guitars or other professional instrument.
Here comes some pics of my beloved Barbat.
The sound chamber is Indian rosewood, and the inlays art called in farsi MEHRKARI, is of brass, walnut-, maple-,cocobolo-, and african black wood. Sound board is Bavarian spruce, Walnut neck, and ebony fretboard and tuning pegs.
Heavenly sound!!!
Hope once i can play good, to let you hear it.
Enjoy

Mortys - 7-12-2009 at 02:17 AM

Here comes some more pics.

Ararat66 - 7-12-2009 at 03:14 AM

Wow ... absolutely magical - I need a sit down and a cup of tea after looking at that.

Leon

I don't mean to appear rude but what cost was this amazing instrument??

Mortys - 7-12-2009 at 03:27 AM

Well, as i mentioned before it is not cheap. The actual price is like € 4500.

Ararat66 - 7-12-2009 at 12:10 PM

I'm not surprised - it is amazing as I would imagine the sound is ... any chance of a sound file :applause:

play well

Leon

siro - 7-17-2009 at 10:47 AM

hi dear mortys
i think you had buy it very expensive,why :shrug:

?
in this barbat i see usual materils plus mohrkari i have heard the sound of mohamadi bros instrument(i had play on it) they have nothing special for that price.
you can ask mr behroozinia and mr arsalan kamkar and mr firoozi about barbats and ouds wich mr amjad moradi makes,i think its much diffrence between mohamadi and moradis instrument moradis instruments are much better and have lower prices.

good luck

Mortys - 7-17-2009 at 09:52 PM

Well, thanx for your info.
But what do you mean by nothing special? I've played lots of different oud and barbats in Iran made by dif. makers, i found by mohhammadi the best and besides his eye for details in making and finishing instruments is just perfect.
And the sound is also superior! and i think the price is absoutely worth it. It is customshop Barbat man with out-numbered inlays. How much do you pay for a customshop Gibson acoustics? Is that then realistic? Why do we make our own arts worthless?
Bytheway, this is no mass production factory.

Anyway thanx again.

siro - 7-18-2009 at 03:49 AM

hi dear mortys
you can search for the ouds wich the great oud makers around the world are making and some old ouds wich number one musicians are using in their professional records and concerts,and you will see what i mean.anyway as you wish if you like it an it makes you happy good for me i am happy too bro,
goodluck

Edward Powell - 7-18-2009 at 06:22 PM

...yes, but the point is that ouds are grossly underpriced instruments, and I sincerely take my hat off to a man who is willing to pay what an instrument is worth, rather than simply what he can get it for.

Bravo!

ps. Ouds are underpriced for the same reason why Chinese goods are underpriced - why - because of human exploitation. I have witnessed this first hand, and it is shocking. Even in Istanbul, talented instrument makers working 12hours a day 6 days a week for perhaps 60Euros a week. Getting about 1 Euro/hour. Wages in Egypt are much lower, and I hate to think what Chinese and Indian workers get.

Historical Barbats by M. Arafati

Dr. Oud - 7-18-2009 at 07:51 PM

I recently visited Iran and have a video and some pics with Mohammed Arafati. He has been building historical Barbats basd on archeological artifacts from a Henry Farmer book on Historical Musical Instruments.
http://s14.photobucket.com/albums/a312/droud/Arafati/

Mortys - 7-19-2009 at 02:31 AM

Dear Richard,

How did you like the sound and playability of Arafati ouds/Barbats?

Mortys - 7-19-2009 at 03:00 AM

Thanx Edward,
You know some people ( specially from the eastern countries it is just a part of our culture) always try to find sth very cheap, it should cost nothing and some donot even appreciate art. I mean how much time it gets to make such an instrument with all that one of a kind inlays? Some people just don't realize it, how many hours would it take to make that even?
I think we have two category of instrument makers: the one who just makes it as soon and fast as possible and make a huge factory of it to earn more, and the one who really makes it with love and passion for their work. That is big difference!

I hope that once people realize this, and that the latter is just a one man workshop, but you get well absolutely
what the money really worth is.
Quality and Art

Beas.One - 7-19-2009 at 06:29 AM

Thank you very much, Dr. Oud for your interview video.

siro - 7-19-2009 at 07:44 AM

hi mortys
i think you didnt understand what i mean
what do you mean very cheap ,who said that?
,i said nothing special for that price(6000 euro), i know the diffrence between bad and good instruments because i have grown up between musicians and makers in iran,i think everything has its price not more not less i belive in this, many of oud makers have made ouds and passedaway, but some of them are with us until know and their ouds and their arts will stay in the art history for ever like nahat family nariman ali alaawad manol and someothers you can ask for their quality and artistic works and also prices( i mean these ouds todays real prices) i have a special respect for all oud makers around the world and for musicians too,just imagine yourself if you wanted this barbat badly and you couldnt buy this instrument (because of the unreal price)
very bad feeling for sure,how many people can pay this unreal prices?(6000 euro,)
and i know something for sure art is so far from business,as i said as you wish enjoy it,i say again everything has its price not more not less, you are talking about art and quality,but dont forget, this site is a place to share ideas,information,and somethings else to interduce this instrument and help people to find what they need about oud and music ,many of members here are professionals,they know the details of the art of oud making, if you dont want to realize this,sorry

Dr. Oud - 7-19-2009 at 08:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Mortys

Dear Richard,

How did you like the sound and playability of Arafati ouds/Barbats?

Arafai has a system of bracing he developed with his father-in-law (who tught him oud making). They analyized over 150 ouds to arrive at a formula to calculate the location and size of the braces, determined by the length of the face and volume of the body. I have played 8 different shaped and sized ouds and barbats by Arafati and they all had perfect balance in volume across the strings. Tonal quality ranged from very good to excellent. I believe he is one of the best makers today, his workmanship is superb and the playability and sound of his instruments is as good as it gets. His website:
http://www.oudarafati.com/

siro - 7-19-2009 at 08:16 AM

dear richard would you please tell us about mr arafatis oud/barbat prices?
thank you

Dr. Oud - 7-19-2009 at 02:25 PM

Given the situation in Iran it may be difficult to communicate, but it would be best to ask him directly.
http://www.oudarafati.com/

nasers - 7-19-2009 at 03:12 PM

On your question of good oud players in Iran, I personally like Shahram Gholami's style http://www.myspace.com/shahramgholami

Subject: Oud/Barbat in Iran

jhonaki - 9-16-2009 at 11:55 AM

Siro,

Sorry, I did not understand at all your last reply about cost of instruments, I have been seeing discussion about it often lately.
Simply but, an instrument from a Master builder is going to be expensive and there is no way to get around it. After all, you are paying for his years of experience and special touch, his magic.
In the case of Iranian instruments, the quality is well underpriced.

I have a number of instruments from Ostad GhanbariMehr and his apprentices. They look wonderful, if you like the term art piece, that is fine but what is important is their sound.
After all they are tools first. I would not like to see the same thing happen in Iran that happened in America, when Guitars became something you invest in. It is very sad and show alot about the culture.

We all know the great skill and beauty the Mohamadi Brothers make but what comes first is the wonderful sound their Master Ghanbari Mehr taught them. They instruments would be worthless without that.

Their prices are not high, be lucky you do not play the Tar. I think the real problem for us all is to be worthy of playing such wonderful instruments.

EDIT

jhonaki - 9-17-2009 at 07:52 AM

Siro,

SORRY, I TRIED TO EDIT MY LETTER SO IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE.

Sorry, I did not understand at all your last reply about cost of instruments, I have been seeing discussion about it often lately.
Simply but, an instrument from a Master builder is going to be expensive and there is no way to get around it. After all, you are paying for his years of experience and special touch, his magic.
In the case of Iranian instruments, the quality is well underpriced.

I have a number of instruments from Ostad GhanbariMehr and his apprentices. They look wonderful, if you like the term art piece, that is fine but what is important is their sound.
After all they are tools first. We use Ghanbari Mehr, not because of the collecting or beauty but because this is the best tool.

What is lately happening is people are worshipping the instrument , putting their energy into that, not what is important, the music.

I would not like to see the same thing happen in Iran that happened in America, when Guitars became something you invest in. It is very sad and show a lot about the culture.

We all know the great skill and beauty the Mohammadi Brothers make but what comes first is the wonderful sound their Master Ghanbari Mehr taught them. They instruments would be worthless without that.
I am sure they agree, the sound is what is first, and yes the joy of the eye follow and for that luxury, we must pay a thank you.

By the way, their prices are not high,
Here is an example of a young German maker who made a wonderful Saz, but look at the price and think about how much experience he really has with the tradition…

http://www.vorreiter-gitarren.de/en/modelle/saz.html

Mohammadi Brothers are a real bargin in my humble opinion.

Siro, be lucky you do not play the Tar. The prices really go up!!!

I think the real problem for us all is to be worthy of playing such wonderful instruments.

FVorreiter - 11-5-2010 at 11:23 AM

I just wanted to drop a brief note here; recently I have heard many discussions on instruments prices. And believe me, even in North America there is much discussion about the affordability of a guitar. I think I may be able to explain how some instrument makers (me included) make such expensive instruments. I also wish I was able to make cheaper instruments, but it is not as easy as some may think.
I have very few machines, since I am a young maker and I have only little room and little finances to work with. All that I have is the skill in my hands and the artistic ideas in my head (and heart).
So everything in my shop is made by hand, which takes much longer than using machines as the factories do. Now why would I make a Saz that looks like a factory instrument? They can make it faster, and they will. So I have to do something special so that I can find a niche in the market. Which means I have to put in more work time, and again my instrument becomes more expensive. It is a real dilemma, and I wish I could earn a living on making cheap instruments.
Look at the positive sides: Luthiers like me put much emotion, time and art into an instrument. No factory can do this, or at least not to the same degree. Our work is good for the instruments, and maybe in turn also good for the musicians. I know a saz player who always said to me: "Florian, I wish every saz maker would be more expensive, because right now many saz's are cheap and of poor quality".
I also don't use the cheapest tools I can buy. I buy good tools for a reasonable price, and sometimes they are expensive. But then they help me do great work also. And I think some musicians may feel the same about their instruments.

Florian.

Florian Vorreiter Lutherie (Official Website)

Edward Powell - 11-5-2010 at 02:30 PM

Bravo Florian,
...yes, factory instruments generally have no soul. Also, factories tend to be extremely wasteful with materials, whereas the hand luthier is much more careful. Musicians need to understand that buying a handmade instrument is supporting the tradition - which otherwise will die.

FVorreiter - 11-26-2010 at 07:54 AM

Hi Edward, I just realized you must be one of Allan Beardsell's old friends. Is that right?

Edward Powell - 11-26-2010 at 07:58 AM

I've know him since the mid 70's!

FVorreiter - 12-2-2010 at 11:07 AM

I worked with him for a couple of years, until this spring. This world is so small, just as everybody says...