Mike's Oud Forums

ID this Oud? Repair?

dublinbu - 12-31-2005 at 03:01 PM

I'm a college student (20) and finally convinced my Armenian grandmother to give me her father's oud. My Great-grandpa Eddie used to play it all the time (in addition to another oud he had that is elsewhere in the country with other family). I have a few recordings on my computer in tx of him that were duplicated from a casette recording, but the oud itself is now in my possession and in need of repair. There are some cracks where the head connects to the neck (on each side of the neck) about 2-3 inches in length and with a visible gap of maybe 2-3mm wide.

The oud has ivory (i think) roses and there is a label inside which can be seen through the main rose. There is also a piece of ivory on the bottom. I'm going to post pictures in a few minutes and would like to see if anyone has any information on the oud-luthier (if known), or anything that I could use as "history" of this oud. Also, anything about the style of oud? It is an 11-string (5 pairs of 2 with the single "bam" or bass note closest to the highest tuned strings (bottom of the oud).

dublinbu - 12-31-2005 at 03:05 PM





















Jameel - 12-31-2005 at 04:19 PM

Looks like Bedrossian or Dikran Najarian's style.

Can you type what the label says? I can see Beirut Liban, and Istanbul Store, but what is the rest?

Jonathan - 12-31-2005 at 04:57 PM

Looks like Leon Nubar is the luthier's name. Armenian name.
It looks like the guy was based in Beirut, but his shop was called "Istanbul Store"
I think that is a beautiful oud. Graceful lines, and killer rosettes. I know I posted something on that style rosette a long time ago. It showed up on so many ouds 50 or 60 years ago and more, but now seems to be disappearing. Exact same birds (doves, I assume), with the same leaf pattern. I have seen it on ouds from Istanbul, Lebanon, and the US. Does anybody know who came up with it originally?
I sure wish luthiers would lay off those treble cleffs for a while and go back to something like this.
I love that sleek peg box. Not clunky, just cool, graceful lines. And I usually don't like that tiled-edge purfling, but it just looks great here.
So, did your greatgrandfather ever record anything? Where did he live?

dublinbu - 12-31-2005 at 11:12 PM

this is what it looks like:
Istanbul Store 1947
Leon & Nubar (it is a clear &, just not the picture, so I guess the luthier isn't Leon Nubar?)

sti= Basta (not sure what sti= would mean, but it looks like that)
Beirut
Liban

dublinbu - 12-31-2005 at 11:14 PM

My great grandfather did record a bit, and I was fortunate enough to get one of his tapes to copy from my grandmother. It's on my computer in texas waiting to be re-equalized and mastered (if possible) so I can get it sounding cleaner. If so, I'll happily post links to it somewhere and put it together on a CD or something. My mom said he was apparently pretty good at it, but as far as I know he lived in either Chicago or Phoenix when he came to America, and I have no idea where he was in Armenia before he came over. I do know his point of entry was Ellis Island if that makes any difference.

Andy - 1-1-2006 at 10:22 AM

Very nice looking oud. You could do a search on the Ellis Island web site. It would help to know his about what year he came here. Don't think it is a Karabet Der Bedrosian oud because I own one and this looks absolutely nothing like it.
http://www.geocities.com/antronig/oud.html

dublinbu - 1-1-2006 at 11:24 AM

My mom just told me that my great grandpa was 12 when they came over, so that means that, by the date on the sticker, it was imported at a later date than his naturalization...

dublinbu - 1-1-2006 at 11:29 AM

one other question... with the string setup and the look/label on the oud, is it more likely turkish or arabic?

Jonathan - 1-2-2006 at 03:00 PM

I would say Turkish, although some might disagree. If you can give us the rough dimensions (including string nut to bridge length), we could better tell you. That purfling on the edge (tiled edge purfling) seems more common on Arabic ouds than Turkish ouds, but it is definitely seen on Turkish ouds, as well. The neck, as well, at first appears Arabic. Peg box, and sparse ornamentation throughout, consistent with Turkish. 17 ribs on the back--could go either way.
Without dimensions, I would say Turkish with Arabic influence. But, I am sure that there are others that are going to disagree with me. And a lot of them know more than I do.
I am with Andy--it does not look like a der Bedrossian. He did use a lot of birds in the rosettes, but they never look like this.
I still say the luthier is Leon Nubar, except perhaps it is a partnership, Leon and Nubar.
Can you tell us your great grandfather's name?

Jonathan - 1-2-2006 at 03:02 PM

One last thing--whatever you do, get the oud repaired by somebody that knows what they are doing--i.e., somebody that specifically repairs ouds. That will likely mean that you have to mail it out, and wait months for its return. That's OK. It's better to have it done right.

zalzal - 1-4-2006 at 01:32 PM

I think that there is a luthier called Sumbat Bedrosian who used same kind of bird pattern in the rossettes around the 40s. May be this oud is not a Karabet der Bedrosian but another Bedrosian, Sumbat, who could came fm Turkey and work in Lebanon, carrying with him turkish and family patterns

Andy - 1-4-2006 at 04:35 PM

Sumbat Bedrosian's rosettes were much different even though they both used birds in their rosettes. The butt end of Sambat's ouds were capped this oud is inlaid. I believe Sumbat's ouds were wider and larger too than this oud. By the way there is a Sumbat oud for sale I believe in France.

zalzal - 1-6-2006 at 05:00 AM

Andy you are right, a week ago a saw an ad on oud sale. I asked more info and seller sent several photos of various rare ouds on sale. One of them was a Sumbat dated 1945, and i remarked the similar rosette bird pattern to dublindu's oud here. That is why i advanced the hypothesis that dublindu's oud could be a Sumbat. Next time i will look three times closer before advancing anything.

Jonathan - 1-6-2006 at 07:20 AM

Zalzal, if you are not interested in the Sumbat, can you let us know who has it?
Thanks

bcearthtones - 1-6-2006 at 07:22 AM

That's a curious string arrangement, has anyone seen anything like this before?

bcearthtones - 1-6-2006 at 07:24 AM

oops. I see now it is missing some strings

zalzal - 1-6-2006 at 07:41 AM

Jonathan, the mail is rareouds@wanadoo.fr

Jonathan - 1-6-2006 at 09:45 AM

Thanks

Andy - 1-6-2006 at 05:28 PM

Zalzal, no problem, I thought it was a Sumbat too at first. I may be wrong but I think that oud makers like other instrument makers tend to stay somewhat standard in their instruments. What I mean is the shape is usually the same because the molds are somewhat identical and the same with the rosettes (this is what I call the decorative carved piece covering the holes). This is just my guess.

dublinbu - 1-6-2006 at 10:24 PM

on a side note... i have finished equalizing and digitizing the recording i have of my great grandpa. i have 11-tracks on one cd and if i can find a place to host them i'd be more than willing to put them up for your listening enjoyment. i'll keep you posted!

Jameel - 1-6-2006 at 11:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dublinbu
on a side note... i have finished equalizing and digitizing the recording i have of my great grandpa. i have 11-tracks on one cd and if i can find a place to host them i'd be more than willing to put them up for your listening enjoyment. i'll keep you posted!


If you want to send me some better pics of your oud and your grandfather's playing, I'd be glad to add it to the roster at the Internet Oud Database. It would be a great addition. kalliopios(at)mchsi.com

Jonathan - 1-8-2006 at 05:31 AM

If he recorded professionally, let us know his name.

dublinbu - 1-11-2006 at 09:51 AM

I'm fairly sure he didn't record professionally.