Mike's Oud Forums

What wood is this?

Jonathan - 1-3-2006 at 06:02 AM

I am terrible at identifying woods, and I hope somebody out there can help. It might be impossible, I know, to identify wood from a picture, but I thought I would give it a shot.

I found this old bookcase. Looks homemade, probably by my greatuncle, who died around 25 years ago. Covered in a couple of layers of contact paper. Must be about 30 or 35 years old.

Any chance this is spruce? I am hoping that it is, so that I can use it for braces and, perhaps, a face. It looks like it to me, but I really am an amateur with this.

Jonathan - 1-3-2006 at 06:05 AM

.

Jameel - 1-3-2006 at 06:10 AM

You'd have to be a wood scientist to identify it. It could be douglas fir, pine, really any coniferous tree. It's the cell structure (determined by looking at endgrain with a loupe) that might reveal it. Frankly Jonathan, I would think after the trouble you've had with wood so far, you would just buy some good seasoned tonewood for the top and braces. Who knows how much runout this bookcase wood has? Best to get a top from reputable dealer (like lmii.com) or even a fellow luthier. You think a chunk out of a rib bothers you now? Imagine discovering a fatal flaw in your top wood after you've fit and glued all those precise braces.

Jonathan - 1-3-2006 at 06:17 AM

The voice of reason.
Thanks

Dr. Oud - 1-3-2006 at 09:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jameel
You'd have to be a wood scientist to identify it. It could be douglas fir, pine, really any coniferous tree. ...

You could test the wood's tonal quality with the thumb thump test (what ever the species is). After cleaning and planing the wood to an even thickness, say 3/16-1/4 inch, hold one corner between two fingers and thump (tap lightly)at the center of the board with the side of your thumb. If it makes a tone, you can use it. If it makes a thud, you can burn it. You still need to make some brace design decisions based on the relative stiffness, but some old wood can be very much worth the effort. The fine grain AAA grade tonewoods from dealers are a safer choice certainly, but I wouldn't toss this stuff aside without some evaluation. It might be superb (or firewood).

Jonathan - 1-3-2006 at 04:43 PM

Or at least superb firewood.
Thanks for the tips, Doc. I don't know enough at this point to know a good thump from a bad one, so I will just hang on to it until I know some more.
Thanks again.

zalzal - 1-4-2006 at 01:23 PM

I am panic-stricken. I have burned thousand of old bookcases, pieces of wood coming fm old furnitures thrown in the chimney....i am guilty of having avorted thousand of ouds-to-be had the thumb test succesfully worked.
God what a weight in my consciense.

In fact i know nothing on wood and lutherie, but all these threads that our "maestros" are posting here are so exciting.
I just went to Dr Oud website and what a gold mine.
I visited the others as well.
I am completely taken by oud making, eventhough i am terribly clumsy. and will never fabricate an oud.
I really love this oud world.
Thank you all, very dear and venerable maestros, you are caressing our souls.

Peyman - 1-4-2006 at 01:33 PM

Hey Jonathan,
I was away for a while but just saw some of the things you went through with the oud project. I hope everything works out.
I wanted to say something about the soundboard. Do make sure it's good quality. I bought a piece of western red cedar over the summer, which was graded "A" and according to the seller was good quality. I did the sound test and the board responded well (better than expected).
I planned to use it for a small tanbur face (26 cm x 26cm). Anyway, I was thicknessing it with a palm plane to about 3 mm (from about 5-6 mm), when I noticed the board was becoming flexible. When I reached about 3.5 mm I lifted and flexed the board to see if everything was ok. I heard a crunch then with more pressure, it started to split right down the middle. I glued it up (titebond) and now plan to use a braces under it, even though there is no braces in the saz family. I guess the board is ok for now and the glue is holding. I have to see how it will do after the bridge is on top :mad:. That's my lesson for using a cheap soundboard.

Dr. Oud - 1-4-2006 at 03:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Peyman
Hey Jonathan,
I was away for a while but just saw some of the things you went through with the oud project. I hope everything works out.
I wanted to say something about the soundboard. Do make sure it's good quality. I bought a piece of western red cedar over the summer, which was graded "A" and according to the seller was good quality. I did the sound test and the board responded well (better than expected).
I planned to use it for a small tanbur face (26 cm x 26cm). Anyway, I was thicknessing it with a palm plane to about 3 mm (from about 5-6 mm), when I noticed the board was becoming flexible. When I reached about 3.5 mm I lifted and flexed the board to see if everything was ok. I heard a crunch then with more pressure, it started to split right down the middle. I glued it up (titebond) and now plan to use a braces under it, even though there is no braces in the saz family. I guess the board is ok for now and the glue is holding. I have to see how it will do after the bridge is on top :mad:. That's my lesson for using a cheap soundboard.

Your western red cedar may have been good quality, but cedar has very different characteristics than spruce, or other tonewoods and red cedar is particularly soft and weak in comparison. It can still make a good soundboard, but must be made thicker than the same grain density spruce board, (usually 150% thicker with the same grain density) and red cedar usually has much wider grain spacing, making it further weaker, so even more thickness is called for. If you try to plane it to the same thickness as some other wood species, you will probably encounter the failure you experienced. 3mm is very thin for cedar anyway.

Peyman - 1-4-2006 at 06:29 PM

Thanks doc. I didn't know this about red spruce. The reason why I thicknessed it is because I read an article on a gibson mandolin and the maker there thicknessed the arch in a gradient from 2.5-5 mm (Archtop). I thought mine could stand that thickness too. Actually the guy that sold me the top was nice enough to include about 4 logs of WRC, all kiln dried.
Even though I didn't ask for any of it. I like the color. It's a weird red-gold-shiny. Very nice. Smells nice too.
Next time I buy, I'll ask the seller about the thicknessing.