Mike's Oud Forums

Magdy El Ashmawy master luthier vs Naseer Shamma scam

manuscript - 2-3-2006 at 01:32 PM

Al Farabi Manuscript




Hello all, I have heard about this most interesting and intriguing subject regarding the inventor of the 8 string Oud. Please do forgive me I have not introduced my self to you but I am a scholar of Arabic origin in the study of ancient oriental manuscripts. I have work with several auction/antiquities houses and also lecture part time in a university. I have heard about the above subject through one of my loyal students who is an Oud fanatic. I can say through my own experience and research (hence the reason that it took me so long to comment on the matter) that Dr. Elashmawy is the inventor of the 8 string oud and not Naseer Shamma as he says. Basically I have seen both elashmawy's and shamma's respective websites and I have come to the following conclusion. shamma claims that he has come accross a original manuscript that Al Farabi has written. As an expert in this field I say it is proposterous for the following reasons:
1) There is no known document in existence in any library index or university sources.
2) The language used in the manuscript is not of the time of Farabi neither are the names used for the muscical tones (Maqam). It is all modern language.
3) The handwriting and the calligraphy have no relation to the period in time of which they are supposed to have come from.
4) Finally and most importantly, Shamma claims that this manuscript describes and 8 string oud, if anyone looks at it you can clearly see that it illustrates 7 strings and not 8.

See for yourselves and you will understand.

revaldo29 - 2-3-2006 at 01:43 PM

If you don't mind me asking, what university do you teach part-time in?

SamirCanada - 2-3-2006 at 03:31 PM

Doesnt Nasser Shamma play with a 7 string oud made by yaroub? :rolleyes:

manuscript - 2-3-2006 at 04:15 PM

yes you are right and he has never been pictured with an 8 string oud. No one has ever seen this 8 string oud that he claims to have made. good point.

fyenix - 2-4-2006 at 05:12 AM

in my opinion it is not enough to just introducing yourself as "a scholar of Arabic origin in the study of ancient oriental manuscripts" when the subject you brought up had mention couple of respectfull names (in this case Mr elashmawy and shamma not to mention calling such person a "scam")

for a start why dont you tell us what is your name and where do you teach?

Django - 2-4-2006 at 05:26 AM

I would add that in my opinion this forum would be better off without this kind nastiness, yes? Really, who cares who was first? Let's proceed to more positive posts about our beloved instrument.

manuscript - 2-4-2006 at 05:54 AM

Firstly I do not see why I need to state my name and where I work, why should I, which one of you has done this??? nobody!!!! Furthermore, how do I know there are'nt any nutters out there that could stalk me?? Anyway I was not being nasty about anyone this is my professional opinion and it should not offend any one. Also it is important to state who discovered the 8 string oud first because Naseer Shamma claims it is him when it is not, Magdy El Ashmawy is its discoverer. Imagine if you invented or discovered something and someone denies your basic right of recognising your talent, and that is why it is important. Anyway if you look at http://www.elahmawyoudandnay.com you will see in the references section that the newspaper articles date way back to before shamma claims to have discovered the 8 string oud.

Why is everyone getting so heated up, unless they have ulterior motives????? If you are truly oud lovers you need to know the truth.

did not mean to offend anyone just stating facts;)

bayati - 2-4-2006 at 06:02 AM

I have been reading all the postings in this topic and i am wondering why naseer shaama is not responding to all this??? it would be interesting to see if there is any scientific rebuttal from naseer shaama to do with the points that manuscript made........

fyenix - 2-4-2006 at 06:21 AM

. . then the whole thing you (manuscript) mentioned sound like a "scam" itself unless we all really know who you are. . .

revaldo29 - 2-4-2006 at 08:59 AM

I agree, this post is meaningless unless the one throwing out the accusations establishes his/her credibility. Otherwise, you have no right to make such accusations.

Django - 2-4-2006 at 10:32 AM

I agree completely. The accused should know who his accuser is.

SamirCanada - 2-4-2006 at 10:39 AM

Dont think people dont notice that your first post here is a rather strong stance to introduce yourself in a forum where you are not known. Maybe your friends with this person but this isnt the place to discuss about who was first and who wasnt. Nasser doesnt sell 8 sting ouds on the other hand Magdy El Ashmawy does and his site's link has been posted here wich in the first place is nice of Mike to allow. But there is no need to be pushing the issues here. Since mainly this is on a personnal basis between the 2 men.

Longa - 2-4-2006 at 12:20 PM

I think its healthy to have such debates.
While Naseer is avery skilled player and likes to talk about Alfrabi during his interviews I could never figure out what he wants to say.

I have also followed the work of Magdy Ashmay since 1980's
Naseer muast have been very young at the time.

Magdy's work is not about adding one or two strings to the oud I think its more about continuing from and implementing Alfrabi's work and putting it into prctice.

David Parfitt - 2-4-2006 at 02:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by manuscript
Firstly I do not see why I need to state my name and where I work, why should I, which one of you has done this??? nobody!!!!


OK manuscript, I'll go first. My name is David Parfitt and I work in the School of Physics at the University of Exeter (UK).

Your turn now.

al-Halabi - 2-4-2006 at 02:19 PM

I am not familiar with what Naseer Shamma has said about al-Farabi or the historical origin of 8-course ouds, but I thought it would be useful to make a brief comment about what is known to us about the historical evolution of the oud from the writings of Middle Eastern authors over the centuries. Neither al-Farabi nor any other medieval writer describes an 8-course oud. All the major writers until the 15th century (al-Kindi. Ibn al-Munajjim, al-Farabi, Ikhwan al-Safa', Ibn al-Tahhan, Ibn Sina, al-Urmawi, the anonymous author of 'Kanz al-Tuhaf,' etc.) mention either a 4-course or a 5-course oud. These were the two standard types of oud that co-existed in the region. Al-Farabi used the 5-course oud and its fingerings as a model for analysing the tone system. A hundred years later Ibn al-Tahhan, an accomplished oud player and one of the great court musicians in Fatimid Cairo, wrote in his book on music ('Hawi al-funun') that the ouds in Egypt in his time, and his own oud, had four courses, although in some other places 5-course ouds were used.

Ouds with more courses than the standard four or five appear in the Ottoman period. In the late 15th century, the Ottoman author al-Ladhiqi mentions the recent appearance of a new oud with 6 courses (named oud akmal) alongise the 4-course oud (oud qadim) and 5-course oud (oud kamil) that had been around for centuries. In the early 16th century the Ottoman court musician Mahmud al-Maraghi describes a still newer innovation - the development of an oud with 7 courses (named oud mukammal). Sometime in the 17th century or 18th century this 7-course oud found its way to Egypt (an Ottoman province at the time) and remained there well into the 19th century. The French scholar Villoteau picked up one of these 7-course Egyptian ouds when he was in Egypt around 1800 and wrote a detailed description of it (I have posted Villoteau's diagram of this oud on a different thread). The Musical Instruments Museum in Brussels has this type of Egyptian oud in its collection.

Based on everything we know, in the time of al-Farabi (who died in 950) and even 500 years later ouds had either four or five courses, not more. Ouds with a couple of additional courses appeared in the Ottoman Empire, but none as far as is known had 8 courses. It would be interesting to know where the information about a medieval oud with 8 double courses (rather than a total of 8 strings) comes from.

SamirCanada - 2-4-2006 at 02:58 PM

Verry good information al-Halabi thanks for sharing your point in this story.

Good on you David for explicitly saying who you are and where you work. But now that I think of it... it wasnt really needed. Iam not blaming you for doing so, far from it since I and many others respect you verry much. There is no need to inform explicitly who we are to people asking it of us (if they took the time to read through the forrums and become involved then it could become clear who people are) and it comes from the fact that for the last couple of years all the members grew closer and learned about eachother... almost to the extent of becoming a oud fraternity. And thats how you develop credentials and credibility. You see Iam kind of sceptical of someone that registers to the forrums and is ready to posts in threads so quickly and right after that another one register's and is ready to jump in this heated conversation 15 minutes after singing up. :rolleyes:
Maybe you should look up this thread before saying nobody on the forrums is ready to say who they are.

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=411#pid1922...

klip - 2-4-2006 at 04:33 PM

Hey longa, how come u biased???? even though naseer is a very talented player even more than some of the prominent musicians from his country as he says.

Greg - 2-4-2006 at 07:15 PM

Today is an excting day for me. I have just "invented" a new instrument. It is called the "132.5 cm grey plastic didgeridoo." Most would be aware that similar instruments have been in use by my Aboriginal Australian brothers for the past 40,000 years. But the ones they play are usually made from eucalyptus tree branches, hollowed out by termites and are not exactly 132.5 cm in length. My invention is precisely that length and is hollowed out by a different process, called extrusion. Some may agrue that this is merely an adaptation of an ancient design, but I assert that this is clearly a new invention and that I am the "founder."

I would like to share a sound sample with you, but I do not have the time right now. You see, this afternoon I intend to invent another new device. It is to be known as the "bamboo and twine camera tripod." I'll post pictures as soon as the patents have been registered.

Regards,

Greg.

Elie Riachi - 2-4-2006 at 08:09 PM

Kind of along the same lines as Greg. A few months ago I invented the 6-string oud (note: not the six course oud) It takes less time to tune and half the cost to string... now I can get double the mileage from a standard set of oud strings. :D:D:D Geez some European lutes must have 20 strings or more.

Jason - 2-4-2006 at 08:20 PM

I've got a 10 stringer right now because one of my strings broke :) One of the things I love about the oud and oud players is that they are far less interested in "gear" than many other musicians. Sure, we talk about different luthiers but we talk about players and music much more.

On the bass forum I frequent it is another matter entirely.

JT - 2-5-2006 at 03:43 PM

Hey Guys,

Im the inventor of the 130 course string oud, sure its totally unplayable and with an extremely large neck width (130 cm) but what can you do....Im kidding ofcourse.

I think we should just get back to listening to our beautiful ouds and not worry about such topics which dont really go anywhere...one word against another, and I dont think its that big a deal who invented the 8th string...Im sure people have experimented with they're instruments throughout time.

True or not true, lets get on with playing and enjoying our fantastic music!

:D:rolleyes::applause:

JT

Django - 2-5-2006 at 04:17 PM

Actually I invented (using the name Schroedinger) the quantum oud which has the probability of either seven or eight courses at the same time... while it is in its case. When the case is opened...well, that involves the collapse of a wave function, and probably the wreck of a perfectly good oud!

PSab - 2-5-2006 at 05:12 PM

I find these sarcasm's rather childish and frivolous. The author of the post had a few interesting points. I have looked at the "manuscript", http://www.naseershamma.com/farabi.html , and have noticed that there are only 14 pegs which suggest that this oud has 7 courses. Perhaps instead of attacking the writer, and accusing those who announce interest in the writer's news, we can have a civilized debate about the subject. Sadly, most times when someone puts forth an unpopular suggestion, the members of this forum attack his persoanlity like a pack of vicious dogs rather than having a courteous and scientific debate regarding the issue.
Lastly, I hope no one accuses me of taking part in a conspiracy plot with the writer of the post inorder to destroy Mr. Shamma's reputation. I don't know the fellow and as you can see my user name was created last year. The fact is that Mr. Shamma's works speak for themselves.

This is one wise opinion

sydney - 2-5-2006 at 05:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JT
Hey Guys,
lets get on with playing and enjoying our fantastic music!

:D:rolleyes::applause:

JT



Good on you Joe. Well said.

Actually a nice taqsim of yours would compliment and support what you said very nicely.

Do you think you can treat us to one ... please?


Stay well

jazzchiss - 2-6-2006 at 01:28 AM

I think that the manuscript can describe a 8 course oud with two single basses.

I agree with the majority of the forum than adding strings to an instrument it’s not an invention and it doesn’t matter who did it first.

For me, Shamma is the best contemporary player and perhaps the most technical of all times, but his claim to be ‘the only musician to have constructed a 8 string oud’ following certain manuscript is quite ridiculous.

Hey budd

sydney - 2-6-2006 at 01:53 AM

jazzchiss :wavey: ,

Were not you the man who invented the 8 course Guitar on it's your web page ... :D


Your guitar looks very Bashir style man. I like it. did you have to change the width of the finger board? or you used closer spaces between strings?

What are your secrets? ;)

jazzchiss - 2-6-2006 at 03:18 AM

Ha, ha! I didn’t invent anything!

I ordered my 8 strings guitar after seeing play to Egberto Gismonti. Naturally, it has a wider fingerboard.

It is still for sale: http://es.geocities.com/jazzchiss/anuncio8cuerdas.html

al-Halabi - 2-6-2006 at 09:49 AM

PSab, thanks for giving the link to Naseer Shamma’s page, which shows the Arabic document described as “Al-Farabi’s Manuscript for 8 string Oud, discovered by Naseer Shamma” (http://www.naseershamma.com/farabi.html). I had not seen it previously and just read through it quickly. A couple of immediate points come out of this document’s internal evidence:

1. The oud in the detailed diagram is one of 7, not 8 courses. The names of the 7 courses (rast, ashiran, segah, nihuft, nawa, etc.) are listed twice, next to the pegs and next to the bridge. A 7-course oud actually appeared in the Middle East in the 16th century, when it was described as an innovation. It became standard in Egypt in the 18th and 19th centuries.

2. The author of the document indicates the location of the basic degrees of the Arab scale on the oud's fingerboard with the eight notes rast, dugah, segah, jahargah… kardaniya), which are identified as the first octave (al-diwan al-awwal) in the traditional two-octave range of the region's tonal system. This Persian terminology for the scale degrees (or for the names of the oud courses) was not in use in the time of al-Farabi (he used the four left hand fingers and their location on the oud's fingerboard to identify the various pitches and intervals). The Persian names for the notes became common in subsequent centuries, with various changes taking place in them over time (nawa replacing penjgah, etc.). The terminology in this particular document reflects later Arab usage, specifically of the 18th-19th centuries.

These two observations seem to point in one direction: the document is most likely Egyptian from the 18th or 19th century. The oud it displays was the common 7-course Egyptian oud of the time, for which we have literary documentation and even a surviving intact example in a museum; and the musical nomenclature it uses also belongs historically to this late period, and defintely not to al-Farabi's time in the 10th century.

Setting aside the fact that someone miscounted the number of courses on the oud and made an incorrect attribution of this document to al-Farabi, the text is still an unusual find. It documents aspects of a type of older oud that was once common but is no longer around. The bits of explanatory text in the document indicate that the anonymous author was familiar with the oud and the musical system. Such writings are really rare for the period before the 20th century.

Mike - 2-6-2006 at 10:20 AM

for anybody interested, there are some nice videos on El Ashmawy's website. i enjoyed seeing them.

PSab - 2-6-2006 at 03:52 PM

Al-haibi, these inconsistancies were what i think the original writer of the post was trying to point out. A question which has occupied me for a long time is, what is the reason that some of the dastgah's are named after the strings on the oud. forexample, segah and chahargah. Clearly, in both cases, the tonic could be translated, and in both cases, the popular tunning do not involve re or la as the tonic.
thank you,
pouya

al-Halabi - 2-6-2006 at 05:57 PM

Pouya, the dastgahs you mention are actually not named after the strings of the oud but after basic degrees in the Arab-Persian tonal system that developed in the medieval period. The strings of the oud were themselves named after the tones they produced in this same system. Segah, Chahargah, Mahur, Nava, and Rast-Panjgah are names of dastgahs that originated from the names of particular tones. Several dastgahs and also many Arab-Turkish maqams were named after tones that were central to them, either as tonics or because they otherwise played a dominant role in the melodic features of the mode. For example, segah (“third place” in Persian) was the name of the third note of the basic scale (the first note being yegah and later rast, and the second dugah). This note segah is the tonic of the dastgah of Segah, and it is also the tonic of maqam Segah in Arab and Turkish music. So the dastgah and maqam of Segah came to be named after the first note of their scale.
The tones in this traditional tone system did not refer to absolute pitches; they could take on any pitch, as long as the correct interval sequence was maintained.

bayati - 2-7-2006 at 07:55 AM

I suggested before that Naseer Shamma should respond to this matter but got no response. So now I am suggesting that Magdy El-Ashmawy respond on this page. I have e-mailed Mr. Magdy through his website today. Hopefully we will get to hear from both gentlemen.

My 3.7 cents - after currency conversion.

sydney - 2-7-2006 at 08:50 AM

:D
Quote:
Originally posted by bayati
I suggested before that Naseer Shamma should respond to this matter but got no response. So now I am suggesting that Magdy El-Ashmawy respond on this page. I have e-mailed Mr. Magdy through his website today. Hopefully we will get to hear from both gentlemen.



I do not think Naseer or El-ashmawy should answer to any of this.

Give me one good reason why should they?

We are only oud fans no more, even if some of the members is as famous as Naseer we are not a recognised organisation to judge no one. So please let's just get out of that silly mode. which I guess it's going to end up with Mike closing the thread. I could be wrong.

Many respected members asked nicely to cool off the fight and focus on the beautiful oud and their request got called "childish and frivolous".

Mr. manuscript, If there was a real issue between El ashmawy and Naseer. I guess they can sort it out thmselves. I do not think they need us "oud fans" to judge.

And if you were El ashmawy himself "I like your Nay design" , But I do not think it is wise to bring this issue here.

Sorry guys.

SamirCanada - 2-7-2006 at 12:20 PM

nicely said Emad... Lets get back to playing oud.
Inchallah JT is going to bless us with a little taqasim.
would be nice eh?

Longa - 2-7-2006 at 02:02 PM

I have just sent an email to Dr Magdy to write to us here in this forum and explain his theory to put an end to all this.

Dr. Magdy El-Ashmawy

Magdy-El-Ashmawy - 2-8-2006 at 12:45 PM

Hi Bayati and Longa,

Thank you for letting me know about Mike's website which I was not aware was in existence and also had no idea of what was going on in it involving my name. Listen folks, it is not a dispute or a debate because the facts are already known and my answer to all this has been said by Manuscript and Al Halabi (whom I would like them to contact me through my website: http://www.elashmawyoudandnay.com, as I have some interesting pieces of knowledge I would like to share with them). I have only one point to add look at all the videos and references on my website. Notice the dates and how old everybody was at the time. I going to add another page to my site to give a detailed reply to this subject.

To Mike, Super Administrator:

Great website and as you like the videos on my website, I am going to post soon a very rare crisp piece of video footage of George Mishelle the great Egyptian player recorded in 1961 and some other great audio recordings which show who are the great oud players of the past and of our time.

P.S. This is the only time I am going to be on Mike's website, any comments must be in a civilised manner. I am sure that the Super Administrator will not allow any more childish or unpolite comments on his site.

Dr. Magdy El-Ashmay

al-Halabi - 2-8-2006 at 02:07 PM

Thanks for your comments. I was intrigued by the document and gave my comments on its anachronistic dating. I will write to you directly.

bayati - 2-8-2006 at 02:18 PM

Dear Dr. Magdy thanks for the reply. You are welcome in my office anytime, I look forward to meeting with you in the near future. You now have my contact details which I e-mailed to you, hope to hear from you soon.

Longa - 2-9-2006 at 11:27 AM

HI every body
Its a very dignified answer from Dr Ashmawy and for anybody who doesn't know, adding 2 more strings to the oud to make it 8 strings are the least of his contributions.

Have a look at the long neck one sound hole floating bridge metal pegs and biggest of all is the mathematical formulae which he came up with. All this together with the right string gauges gives his ouds this magnificent sustain presence which can be heard in the later version which can be seen in Hussein Saber's video.

Looking at Dr Ashmawys work that I have been following since the early 80s and in all his articles, he was stating that Alfrabi had never invented an 8 oud string. The only thing that Dr Ashmawy adopted from Alfrabi was the methodology of mathematics in music.

As far as I know the only people who researched the relation between mathematics and music in Egypt were Dr Mustafa Musharafa and Ghatas Abdel Malik Khashab and last but not least Dr Magdi Ashmawy

manuscript - 2-9-2006 at 04:55 PM

To Dr. Magdy El-Ashmawy,

Thank you for the clarification and answer. It would be my pleasure to meet with you the next time I am in London.

Take care and excellent work, well done!!!

JT - 2-9-2006 at 09:41 PM

Id love to post a taqasim, but Im on tour at moment and very hard to do so away from home, I promise you guys one in the future.

By the way Emad, you are too nice of a guy man, Ive heard you're playing...you modest man you...maybe you can inspire with one of yours for my tour huh?

Cheers,

JT:applause:

Lovely

sydney - 2-10-2006 at 07:28 AM

:))


We all look forward to your taksim hopefully soon.


Thanks for you kind words. I only listen and copy from other people's playing.

Good Luck for your tour Joseph. You are a great source of inspiration for all of us. I am too proud of you.

Can you check your U2U Longa ? :)

mjamed - 2-10-2006 at 08:25 PM

Hallo Longa

i've sent you a U2U message.

Can you check it and replay back to me

thanks :)

The origin of Nasseer Shamma's Farabi Document

bayati - 2-11-2006 at 02:59 PM

To Manscript, check this out.

No Attachment

bayati - 2-11-2006 at 03:04 PM

The attachment was too big, it was e-mailed to me today by Dr. Ashmawy. You can find it in page number 34, volume number 9 from The Encylopedia of the Description of Egypt, by the French Scholars in Napolean Bonaparte's time, Arabic translation by Zohair Al shayib. This is exactly the same as what Mr. Shama has produced.

noon - 2-13-2006 at 10:18 AM

Did you see the new video recording of el ashmawys site for George Michelle also have a look at the very interesting seven course oud tuning in the references section

David Parfitt - 2-13-2006 at 10:26 AM

There seem to be an awful lot of newly-registered members with an interest in this thread. Can this be just a coincidence, I ask myself? ;)

Ronny Andersson - 2-13-2006 at 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David Parfitt
There seem to be an awful lot of newly-registered members with an interest in this thread. Can this be just a coincidence, I ask myself? ;)


Indeed and sometimes it also sounds like a monologue ;)

David Parfitt - 2-14-2006 at 12:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
Indeed and sometimes it also sounds like a monologue ;)


:D

SamirCanada - 2-14-2006 at 05:34 AM

:D

Hatem_Afandi - 2-14-2006 at 10:56 AM

Samir/Ronny,
:applause:
NO COMMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am kind disappointed that it took you guys a while to figure it out!!!!
Regards,
Hatem

Longa - 2-14-2006 at 03:54 PM

Thats not all true
I have registerd a while ago and befor that I registered as Mr Longa.

It's nothing against Naseer he is a good player but I can't understand it when he comes on TV and says for example that he invented the one hand playing method for the disabled.??

The worst thing I heard him saying is that Jameel Bashir did'nt have horizons (In other wards that he himself is the abselute master of the oud). If you ask me I think he is agood player (for Iraqi style) and he should stick to that.

On one of his latest interviews he siad that ''he considered him self the garnd son of Zeryab the Iraqi man who changed the world'', he didn't even take a little time to research and find out that Zeryab was a black African possibly from Sudan.

To Longa

klip - 2-15-2006 at 10:31 AM

Longa, you show you are being biased as I said before, you admit yourself that naseer is a good player I would add that he is the best in the whole of the middle east. why are you jealous of him?? is it because he is not an egyptian or you might have had an oud half price from you know who???? and why do you attack David Parfitt?? do you know who he is? as far as I remember Dr. Parfitt is the one who certified Al Farabi's document which Naseer discovered in Ireland which was documented in the film Naseer made for the Iraqi Ministry of Culture in 1998. Look at David Parfitts comments about Naseer in the internet just type Naseer Shamma+David Parfitt in google. and also his comments about Ahmed Haider who was a colleague of Nasseers in Iraq. It looks to me that Manscript and Al Halabi were trying very hard to discredit Al Farabi's document might be linked to you. I will try to get Naseer Shamma to give his comments on this page by the weekend.

David Parfitt - 2-15-2006 at 11:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by klip
and why do you attack David Parfitt?? do you know who he is? as far as I remember Dr. Parfitt is the one who certified Al Farabi's document which Naseer discovered in Ireland which was documented in the film Naseer made for the Iraqi Ministry of Culture in 1998.


Well that's news to me, I must say!!! :D

To Klip

Longa - 2-15-2006 at 01:47 PM

First of all I did not mention anything about nationalies.
If anything I have always admired the way the Turks and the Iraqis for the method they play. And If you want to know who my favouirite players are I will tell you that Jameel Bashir from Iraq and Byram from Turkey are the abselute masters. So please don't bring nationalaties into this, its rather a filthy and rude thing thing to say.


Secondly I don't know where you got the Idea from that I have one of Dr Magdi's ouds. Several months ago I hade an oud made by Maurice for me. Thats one of several ouds I have all from Egypt. So try and ''BE POLITE AND LEARN NOT MAKE FALSE ACCUSATIONS TO PEOPLE''

And it doesn't really matter if Naseer writes or not I'm not giong to hold my brath over it. And when I say he is agood player that does not mean he is the best to me. If any thing I think there are so many good players who playe the same style (check the website that Samir from Canda had put) The Iraqi theacher called Hassan Ali does the same style as Naseer (if not better).

Its up to you really who to learn from and who to listen to just remember keep your manners in order.

al-Halabi - 2-15-2006 at 02:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by klip
It looks to me that Manscript and Al Halabi were trying very hard to discredit Al Farabi's document might be linked to you.


This conspiracy is news to me. I have no interest in the squabbles on this thread, which are already quite tiresome. I read the document on Naseer Shamma's web site and gave what I thought were sound reasons for raising questions about the claims that were being made based on it. I said that the document could not have been written by al-Farabi as claimed because it uses terminology for the names of the strings which came into use only much later. Al-Farabi does not use any of this terminology in his treatise 'Kitab al-musiqi al-kabir.' Why is that? I also said that the instrument in the diagram had only seven courses, not eight as claimed. The names of the courses are listed twice, as follows: Iraq, Sikah, Ashiran, Dukah, Nawa, Rast, and Nihuft. If there is an eighth course on that oud, what is it? The tuning in the diagram happens to be identical to that documented in contemporary sources for the 7-course Egyptian oud of the 18th and 19th centuries, using the precise same names for the courses. That led me to the conclusion that this document is most likely an illustration of this later Egyptian oud, written by someone in the 18th or 19th century, and that attributing it to al-Farabi was mistaken.

It would be good if someone familiar with the provenance of this document addressed these observations on their merit. Some information about the Irish library and the file from which the document came could help to establish its possible authorship and date.

SamirCanada - 2-15-2006 at 08:22 PM

First I want to say that I share your views 100% Al Halabi. I dont agree with the slandering and the implications of other members someone has done on his thread.

I found this exerpt from a al jazeera interview where Naseer talks about the 8 string oud of al farabi. You must read arabic tho. I think It definetly rules out the possibility of a mistake made when editing the site.

http://www.naseershamma.com/interview_ar.html

bayati - 2-16-2006 at 10:02 AM

To Samir Canada:

Positive reply I think what you mean is that the script for Al Jazeera programme about Al Farabis document is true and Mr. Nasseer Shamma is admitting the whole story about his Al Farabi document.

To Al Halabi:

you are a real professional researcher whoever you are and people should not try to say things about the scholars and the well informed participants on this site by posting silly and childish remarks.

Let us all try to gain as much knowledge from the knowledgeable people on this page and let the wood worms go back into their holes.

SamirCanada - 2-16-2006 at 10:09 AM

Dude... dont put words in my mouth. I said that I agree with the questioning done by al halabi and I share his views.

I just found what Naseer said in a interview. I dont know if what he said is true and quite frankly I dont care. I just figured that if we have his statement on it then you can read both sides of the story and decide for yourself.

You see this thread is taking away from people just playing oud. And the main problem is that many people talk about history and documents and etc... and they havent touched a oud in there lives. Lets get back to playing and enjoying the instrument we love.

Mike - 2-16-2006 at 10:44 AM

This thread has been closed.

In brief...I just wish musicians stick to music...politicians to politics...historians to history...etc. etc...If you've ever heard a famous actor talk politics, you'll know what I'm talking about...The trouble starts when people who are not authorities on the subject matter are mistaken for authorities.

Finally: I would like to thank Dr. El-Ashmawy for the outstanding video of George Michel.