Mike's Oud Forums

Psychological Effect of Coptic Musical Heritage on the human

mikokiko - 2-4-2006 at 05:24 AM

I have started this topic here to discuss and contemplate with you guys on the rich musical heritage that the Coptic Church now inherits, which is considered by her to have been preserved for two thousand years, since she was first established. I include this here on this site, since it falls under the subject of Middle Eastern Music. I also started this post to attract some people, and make some people aware of the different musical cultures of the Near East. Hopefully some of you will be interested in reading this, and giving a little a time...

zalzal - 2-4-2006 at 06:09 AM

Is it to religiously elevate human ?? Has it to do with sufism and sufi maqam (i mean stations when elevating to God) ?
Any coptical secular music ? Is there any physiological effect like some gnawas ceremonies in Morocco are held to heal mental illness ??.
Is just choirs and human voices or instruments are accepted ?
Is oud present in coptical music?.
Are there any relation to ethiopian church hymns or armenian church hymns or assyrian chaldeans nestorian rites, any influence on one or the other way?
What are the aim of this hymns ?
If just sang, can we transpose to instruments like oud??

Well you see, i know nothing at all on coptical music, do not reply if you feel it is not necessary to yr thread, don't matter.

Me i am interested on physiological effects, just like oud did till XIX century i believe,
I think in Vienne an oudist called Marwan Abdo is applying some musical therapy to patients with mental illness and there are positive effects arisisng.

mikokiko - 2-4-2006 at 07:17 AM

Ok...
The first part of this topic will discuss the different scales I have noted down and found performed in the church, and how their siound intervals are very precise. I will give a long itnroduction on some history and things I have learned about the tuning of scales in Middle Eastern Music.
These scales i have noted are, their Arabic Maqam equivalent:
1. Maqam Bayati (Like in 3ala Baladi Al-Ma7boub, Akun Sa3eed, Ya Leilat Al-3eed, or Zalamouny Al-Nass)
Arabic Music Intervals (Intervals in brackets are the differences in Turkish tuning):
3/4 (8/9) - 3/4 (5/9) - 1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1 - 1

2. Maqam Rast (Like in Leih Telaw3ini, Agharu Min Nismat Al-Ganoub, Al-Amal)
1 - 3/4 (8/9) - 3/4 (5/9) - 1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1

3. Maqam Sikah (Like in inti fakrani, not many songs or hymns based int this maqam)
3/4 (5/9) - 1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1 - 1 - 3/4 (8/9)

4. Maqam Huzam (Like in Al-Ahat and El-Atlal from Um Kalthoum)
3/4 (5/9) - 1 - 1/2 (5/9) - 1 1/2 (1 4/9) - 1/2 (5/9) - 1 - 3/4 (8/9)

5. Maqam Neirouz (Can't think of any songs right now...)
1 - 3/4 (8/9) - 3/4 (5/9) - 1 - 3/4 - 3/4 - 1 (Couldn't find Turkish tuning for this maqam, doesn't seem to be a very poular one)

6. Maqam Nahawand (Like in Zekrayat, Raq Al-7abib, and Ya Toul 3azabi)
1 - 1/2 (4/9) - 1 - 1 - 1/2 (5/9) - 1 - 1

7. Maqam Saba (Like in Howa Sahih)
3/4 (8/9) - 3/4 (5/9) - 1/2 (5/9) - 1 1/2 (1 4/9) - 1/2 (5/9) - 1 - 1/2 (5/9)

Turkish Theory:
For those of you that don't know, the turks recognize four different sound intervals in their scales. They divide their octave (Arabic equivalent: Maqamat) into 53 microtones. Meaning that each whole tone is subdivided into nine equal parts, each called a comma (koma in Turkish). A comma equals exactly 22.6415 cents. Only Four out these nine are recognized in their notation system. That is the
Major whole tone = 203.77 cents
Minor whole tone, 8/9 = 181. 132 cents*
Major semitone, Apotome, 5/9 = 113.2075 cents (13 cents higher than the western half tone)
Minor semitone, limma, 4/9 = 90.566 cents (9 cents lower than the western half tone of 100 cents)
Though these are the only recognized intervals in Turkish Music, most Turkish musicians in reality now play many of their scales like bayati and Rast with 6/9 or 7/9 intervals instead of 8/9 on the third note (Rast), second (Bayati), or first (Sikah and Huzam). This is closer to the Arabic tuning of the three quarter tone, worth 150 cents. This in Turkish terms would be about 6.75 commas. I believe though, taht traditional Turkish Ottoman music was played with what they have notated now, otherwise they would have made a notation for it. This is most probably because of Arabic external influence on the Turks. The Ottoman Empire just at the beginning of the last century had stretched vast parts across the Middle East.

Cents: The Western Modern Logarithmic scale divides the octave into 1200 cents, meaning that each semitone is worth 100 cents (thus whole tone is 200 cents). So to reach from C (Rast) to the higher C1 (Kurdan) on your oud, you need to complete 1200 cents, just to get that double frequency and halved wavelength. The same applies vice versa.

The three quarter tone used by the Arabs today like in maqam Bayati and maqam Rast and so many of the maqamat, is a phenomen different then what would have been 200 years ago in Egypt, or Syria, or Palestine. The music of Amr Diab and Hakeem and all those singers, completely leave out the wonderful traditions that the Arabs had. So, if the three quarter tone really wasn't traditionally played the way it is now, how was it played?

Well, you see, the oud that many of you here have can play any tonal interval. ANY TONAL INTERVAL!!! If you are skilled enough you can play 15/18 of a tone, in relation to another note! For example if we take Maqam Rast and instead of playing its third note exactly half way between the whole and half tone, we play it slightly higher than that, and if we higher its seventh note, from being exactly 1/2 tone, then we get a slightly different musical effect. This then would be different than what Maqam bayati would have. Even though it contains about the same tonal intervals as Maqam Rast although with a different tonic (starting note), the musical effect will be more different, and with these more natural sounds of the scale, one can bring in much expressive power.

This is why the comma system, being more accurate in playing tones, is a very favoured system by the Turks.
Take Maqam Nahawand for example, if we lower its third note from being an interval of 1/2 tone, to 4/9 (limma) of a tone, it will make it more depressing. Or if we shift it three commas higher, it will sound more mellow and happier. This is why the three quarter phenomenon is not as precise as the old tradition of the Arabs, who did exactly what I describe now. If you listen to the very old songs of Um Kalthoum (1930's and early 40's), you'll find that these rules were in place, and the exact quarter tone was raarely ever used. take for example the song, Al-Ahat (Lovely song!), based in Maqam huzam. Instead of its starting tonal interval being 3/4, here it is higher, and sounds much closer to the 8/9 interval used by the turks. If we compare this with the Maqam Huzam used in Oloulou (3abd Al-7alim 7afiz) we find that it uses the rigid interval of 3/4, and for me does not give the same efffect. The former is much more richer in sound than the later. You see, its of Arabic and all of Eastern music's essence to use the Natural scale!

So, why does modern Arab music abandon these natural intervals? Well simply because the traditional takht which was composed of the three or four natural instruments of Oud, Nay, Qanun, and Kamanga (or Rababa) could play all these intervals. But when these knew evenly-tempered western instruments were introduced to the ensemble, they were only built and altered to play the exact quarter tone, because they are even-tempered. Now, we often here the accordian, and organ and all these western instruments. 3abd Al-Wahab really helped spread this new phenomenon. Also, there was the desire to create harmony with Arabic Music, with which the Natural scales did not sound pleasing. But now with the exact quarter tone, half tone, and whole tone, harmony can be applied more easily. Listen to the second part of Daret Al-Ayam and see how Wahab incorporates harmony with these instruments. Arabic Music has always traditionally generally been considered monophonic (without harmony) and melodic, mainly because of its essence and nature, and because of the natural scales, with which harmony to the common ear will sound displeasing.

The second factor to the spreading of the exact quarter tone system, is that in Arabic theory, in its notation system, the most precise tone that can be written is the 3/4 tone. One cannot notate the higher E flat (Kurd) in Maqam rast, than in maqam Bayati. It is all based on oral tradition, while in the turkish system, this can be notated through the comma system. However traditionally most Turksih scales had the four intervals mentioned above. I firmly believe, and I want to make it clear that I have no valid proof of this, that Arabic Music did actually use this comma system a long time ago, before the Western musical notation system was established. It was that when the Westerners first came to the Middle East in the eighteenth century, that there was the desire to westernize a lot of things. And thus here came the idea of simply modifying the flat and sharp with a dash across it to symbolize a tone inbetween two western semitones. In my opinion, this system has now failed us of the beautiful tradition that once was much more alive than it is now, though many musicians still use these tunings.

The third largest factor in obliterating this idea of Natural scale, was when many of the famous musicians in the Middle East met together at Cairo, in 1932 for the Arab Music Conference, and concluded that the octave should be divided into 24 equal tones. This was because of the influence of the idea of the even-tempered musical system of the West. This contributed to the loss of the old intonation of Arabic Music among many of our famous Arab musicians.

It seems the Turks, organized their notation system much more efficiently than the Arabs did, and were able to notate the least audible interval of a comma. The Persians have also been known to divide the scale into 53 equal microtones, thus each whole tone containing nine equal parts.

Now that we know all of this, how will this benefit us in learning about Coptic Music and its effect on the human?
What does all this have to do with how we react to music?

This to be continued in another post...

mikokiko - 2-4-2006 at 07:20 AM

Zalzal,
some of the questions you asked in your post will be discussed here later on, you will have to stay tuned. But for your other questions I would be more than happy if you could E-mail me at petersibrahim@hotmail.com, and i will answer them to the best of my ability.

If anyone else would also like to ask me questions about this please E-mail me. Or if relevant enough with this topic ask here...

al-Halabi - 2-4-2006 at 10:59 AM

Peter, a couple of comments on points or questions you raised:

The comma system does appear in medieval Arabic treatises on music. It formed the basis of the influential theories of Safi al-Din al-Urmawi (13th-century Iraq), who used the intervals of the comma, limma (4 commas) and apotome (5 commas) to explain how the tone and the scales are constructed through combinations of these three types of intervals. The current Turkish theory is grounded in this medieval system and its ancient predecessors. The comma system remained in use in Syria into the mid-twentieth century. For example, the oud method of Fu'ad Mahfuz ('Ta'lim al-'ud,' in four volumes published in Damascus in the 1960s) uses it, and so does the book on music theory and practice by the Syrian violinist and composer Tawfiq al-Sabbagh ('al-Dalil al-musiqi al-'amm,' published in Aleppo in 1950). Al-Sabbagh shares your view that the system of 24 equal quarter tones misrepresents Arab music and spoils its beauty. Today Arab musicians will sometimes use the term comma when they talk about an incremental change in intonation, but the comma system has been replaced entirely by the new system of quarter tones.

The assumption you make that today's Turkish theory reflects the way Ottoman music was once played is not fully accurate. In earlier centuries a different intonation actually existed. The 5-comma and 8-comma intervals central to current Turkish theory were not always there in Ottoman music, but emerged only in the 18th and 19th centuries. The Turkish intonation of segah (as an example of the "half-flat" interval) used to be lower than it is today. In the 17th century it was approximately 2.5 commas flat, creating an interval of 6.5 commas, which is 3/4 tone. In the following centuries a higher version of segah, only one comma flat, was added. It was this higher segah that the modern Turkish theorists adopted - it fit in neatly with the Pythagorean system because it was a sum of two half-tone (bakiye) intervals each with 4 commas, thus creating the 8-comma interval that is basic in Turkish theory today. The lower version of segah was not recognized by the modern theorists, but it has continued nonetheless to be used in practice in various makams, especially Ussak (the equivalent of Bayati). Tanbur players have one or two frets for this lower segah in addition to one for the high one-comma flat segah. So the 3/4 tone existed in Ottoman music in the past as a basic interval, and continues to exist today even though the theory does not acknowledge it. In his album the Turkish oud player Munir Nurettin Beken performs a 17th-century Ottoman piece with the note segah played lower than today to reflect the practice of the time (a point mentioned in the liner notes) .

In the 17th century Ottoman music had another curious difference with today's Turkish theory: it used the lower version of segah also as the second degree of Hijaz. So the first interval of Hijaz was around 6.5 commas (3/4 tone) rather than 5 commas as it is today. Around the turn of the 19th century Turkish music adopted the lower four-comma flat note used today instead of the old segah to serve as the second degree of Hijaz. So like the 8-comma interval, the 5-comma interval was a later development in Ottoman music.

The older Ottoman intonation may have been a reflection of Persian rather than Arab influence. In the 16th-century almost all the musicians employed in the Ottoman court in Istanbul were imported Persians, who played in a style and with instruments common in Iran. Also, the old Ottoman intonation curiously matches the intonation used in Persian music. The second degree of dastgah Homayun, the equivalent of Hijaz, is played about 2.5-3 commas flat, like the old Turkish intonation for the second degree of Hijaz; and the second degree of dastgah Shur, the equivalent of Ussak or Bayati, is played 2-3 commas flat, also like the old Turkish segah. Santur players, who cannot easily retune their instruments during a performance, actually use the same course for the second step of both modes, just as Ottoman tanbur players used the same fret in the 17th century. I don't know if the intonation of Persian music is the same as it was in earlier centuries, but the parallels with the old Ottoman system are interesting and may suggest a historical connection.

mikokiko - 2-7-2006 at 11:23 PM

Al-Halabi, thanks for your corrections. When I said that Turkish music traditionally only used four different sound intervals, this was only my belief, and not based on solid fact as I did not have any. I grounded this belief on the logic that if they have more than the four known soudn intervals, they would have other wise notated them. Plus, I find these four sound intervals very close to the tuning of the scales of the Coptic Music, and old Arabic music.

When I spoke of the Arabic influence, this was again just a suggestion. I believed this to be so because the Ottoman Empire stretched across the Middle East for so many centuries. Logically, this would mean that the Arabs would have a hige influence on the music of the Turks, as any musical culture in the world is vulnerable to change because of external influence. But thanks to you, you shed some light in this topic, and helped me realize it was most probably the Persians who introduced the 3/4 tonal intervals to Turkish.

I also remember reading somewhere that Al-Farabi did mention that the Arabs did use the comma and limma intervals in their music. He called it the "Arabian comma", and equaled the Turkish comma of 22.6415 cents. However Moustafa Gadalla in his book, "Egyptian Rhythm: The Heavenly Melodies" states the following:
"It is interesting to note that the European treatises of the Middle Ages refer to this particular comma of 22.6415 cents as an "Arabian Comma", even though no Arabian written documentation in the Arabized world ever mentioned it or used it-except for the Arabic speaking people of Egypt."
This is very odd? What's your guys' opinion on this?

Stay tuned for more about the origin of the comma interval...

al-Halabi - 2-8-2006 at 03:51 PM

Peter, you are welcome. Your assumptions were perfectly logical. I think that trying to reconstruct the tonal system and intonation in the region during past centuries is inescapably difficult. The writings on these aspects of the music were too sporadic to give us a comprehensive picture of the situation in various places and times, and when we do have descriptions of the tone system we are not always sure that the theory presented actually reflects accurately the performance practice of the time. Modern Turkish and Arab music theories, as we know, are both deficient in accounting for some pitches and intervals actually in use, and it is likely that this kind of discrepancy between theory and practice prevailed in past centuries as well.

In some cases writers were very precise about intonation, including of the microtonal intervals that are the most challenging for us to reconstruct. Al-Farabi, who gave exact ratios for the intervals, assigned the neutral third interval (C-E half flat) that was called wusta Zalzal a value of 27/22, which is equivalent to 355 cents, or the ¾ tone of current Arab music. Al-Urmawi assigned to this interval a different ratio equivalent to 384 cents, which corresponds to the current Turkish 8-comma interval. Other writers sometimes spoke about such tones by name or fingering position on the oud, but we have no way to know their exact intonation. One example is Ibn al-Tahhan, who was an accomplished oud player and court musician in Fatimid Cairo (mid-11th century). In his book on the music scene of his time he describes the six frets used on ouds in Egypt. One of them was a neutral third called wusta al-‘arab. Then he adds that there was another tone between the wusta al-‘arab and the major third called wusta Zalzal, but most people did not use it, although it was played by the Persians. He says that he knows how to play this wusta Zalzal without needing to add a fret for it, but that it can be difficult and therefore not recommended for beginners. He is describing two sizes of neutral thirds, a lower one common in Egypt and a higher one played in Iran, but we have no way of knowing the exact intonation of either of these two "half-flats."

The term Arabian comma was not used by Arab writers, although medieval European treatises did mention it. But as a unit of measure it was used in musical calculations, especially in Syria, instead of the Pythagorean or the Holdrian comma. (The value of the Arabian comma of 22.6415 cents was apparently calculated in China already in 45 B.C.) Today only Turkish music has preserved this comma system. How common was it in Egypt at any time?

mikokiko - 2-8-2006 at 04:40 PM

So, we've been talking a lot about the use of the comma system among the different Middle Eastern nations and races. The question may arise among you: "Where did this comma originate from? Who first thought of dividing the whole tone into nine parts?"

We can never know for sure who the first person was to come up with idea of dividing the whole tone into nine commas. Although this is so, much of the musical world today believes that Pythagoras himself was the one to divide the whole tone into 9 commas. The term comma in the Western world today is used to describe the difference in tone of the twelfth fifth from the first fifth on the piano. If you guys are not familiar with the term fifth, a fifth is an interval of five diatonic degrees. For example a fifth above F is C, a fifth above C is G, a fifth above G is D, and a fifth above D is A. You guys should know about fifths, your Ouds are tuned based on them. Once we reach that twelfth fifth on the piano, there is a comma higher here. So why is it that this twelfth fifth from the first C is slightly different in tuning?

In logarithmic terms, an octave (All the notes it takes to reach from a certain frequency to its doubled, or halved frequency, the Western octave has twelve semitones, go check it out) is 1200 cents. A perfect fifth is 702 cents. So much for being perfect...
So, say we were to ascend seven octaves (twelve fifths) from the lowest C (Do) on the Piano. The calculation would be the following:
1200 x 7 = 8400 cents
But if we are to ascend twelve fifths, which in theory are the same, this is the total cents we get:
702 x 12 = 8424 cents
The 24 cents (actually is 23.46 cents) here is approximated to be the Pythagorean comma.

There is also known to be the syntonic comma which is attributed to Didymus the Musician of Alexandria from the first century. This syntonic comma had a value of 21.306 cents. This comma, as far as my knowledge goes, is no longer used.

So, if it really wasn't Pythagoras who developed the comma in Greece, in the 500-400 B.C., who did?
(This brings me first to a relevant point I would like speak about.)
Well, we do know that Pythagoras himself did live in Egypt for a significant part of his life to study "the Mysteries" of the ancient Egyptians with one of the high priest. So, he lived 22 years of his life in Egypt. Imagine how much he must have been influenced by the music of the Egyptians, after spending a significant part of his life in a foreign land!

You see, the ancient Egyptians were said to have already established a musical system and theory, that a certain period in time, the Greeks had lacked such a type of system. Many scholars agree that the Egyptians greatly impacted the way Greek music functioned and sounded, and its theory, which is commonly attributed to the great Philosopher, Pythagoras. But forget about what the scholars say, let's see what the Greeks in those time had to say about the Egyptians:

Plato confirms this idea, of the Egyptians first developing a musical theory, in his book of Laws, stating:
"Long ago the Egyptians determined on the rule...that the youth of a State should practice in their rehearsals postures and tunes that are harmonically pleasing. These they prescribed in detail and posted up in the temples...As regards music, it has proved possible for the tunes, which possess a natural correctness to be enacted by law and permanently consecrated."

Many of the famous Greek philosophers such as Plutarch, Plato, and Aristotle write in the 6th century B.C., saying that music had a very poor status in their time. They were always making reference to the older musical system of the Greek isles, known as the Musical System of the Dorians. Herodotus, came from a Dorian town in Greece, and tells us that the Dorians' true ancestors were really the Egyptians:
"...if one were to trace back, generation by generation, the lineage of Danae the daughter of Acrisius, the chiefs of the Dorians would turn out to be true-born Egyptians...Enough has been said about all this. Others have explained how and through what achievements they became kings over the Dorians, despite being Egyptians, and so I will not go into that. I will record other things that others have not picked up."

This must imply that the Greek Dorian musical system, which had influenced and reached southern Italy, had been largely impacted by the Dorian ancestors the Egyptians. It was a common well known fact that these Egyptians were the ancestors as Herodotus says, "I will record other things that others have not picked up."

Plato also describes the Egyptian laws of Music, to be "the ideal laws." It was taught to the Greek youth of his day:
"Every means, then, shall we say, must be employed to keep our children from the desire to reproduce different models in dance or song...can any of us find a better device for this purpose than that employed in Egypt?...[where]...the plan is to consecrate all our dances and all our tunes."

Plato also credits the Egyptians for first knowing and acknowledging the natural sounds of the scales (as opposed to the equal temperament). He states this in his book of Collected Dialogues, stating the following:
"The unlimited variety of sound was once discerned by some god, or perhaps some godlike man; you know the story that there was some such person in Egypt called Theuth. He it was who originally discerned the existence, in that unlimited variety, of:
- the vowels-not 'vowel' in the singular but 'vowels' in the plural-and then of
- other things which, though they could not be called articulate sounds, yet were noises of a kind..."

And yet again, in the same book, he outlines what the Egyptians had achieved saying that they had sound laws that governed melodies and poses. That they also had standard type modes and the regulations by which they are performed-time, place, and occasion. He also says that these descriptions of the Egyptian "…postures and tunes that are harmonically pleasing. These they prescribed in detail and posted up in the temples..."

The Greeks were heavily influenced by the Egyptians. Many of the famous Greek philosophers of that day had all traveled to Egypt to learn about Astronomy, Mathematics, Music, and many other subjects. Homer, Lycurgus of Sparta, and Plato, Eudoxus, and Pythagoras some of the many who came to learn. Athenaeus had also affirmed in one of his texts showing that the Egyptians had taught both the Greeks and barbarians the subject of music. Is it not obvious that Egyptian music had heavily influenced Greek music?

If this is not enough, the musical system of the Greek Church today, the Octoechos, which most scholars say first originated from the modes and scales that were used at the time of Pythagoras, had its true origin in Egypt. F.J. Fetis, a western musicologist, states saying the following from his General Biography of Music Book:
"I have not the least doubt, that his musical notation [used in ecclesiastical music by the modern Greeks] belonged to ancient Egypt. I have in support of my opinion the resemblance borne by the signs in this notation, erroneously attributed to St. John of Damascus, to those of the demotic or popular characters of the ancient Egyptians."

The signs of notation attributed to St. John Damascus are those of the Greek Church today, the Octoechos system. M. Fetis later in his book also concludes thus saying:
"After this detailed analysis of the system of notation employed in the music of the Greek Church, and after comparing its signs with those of the demotic character in use among the Egyptians, can we for a moment doubt that the invention of this notation is to be ascribed to that ancient people [the Egyptians], and not to St. John of Damascus."

The Egyptians were Masters of the art of music, in those times. Pythagoras, the Giant of the Greeks, now looked up to as being the philosopher who developed the theory of music in Greece and for the rest of the Western world today, had borrowed a lot of musical concepts already from the Egyptian musical system. The Greeks looked up to the Egyptians in the field of music. Thus, it is not surprising to believe that the Egyptians were most probably the first to have developed the comma system. There influence on the Greeks, are just one of many proofs of this. In the next few posts I will talk about the Egyptian musical system, and evidences that we have of it today, also proving that the comma and limma system was in use in Egypt. Soon enough I will tie all this in with Coptic Music. There is just sooo much to talk about.

Stay tuned for more information...

mikokiko - 2-9-2006 at 06:00 PM

Al-Halabi, thanks for understanding man. I don't think I have read anywhere that the comma interval was used in Egypt, but it would make sense, its traditional Folk music used these intervals. Why would the other Arabic countries use it, while Egypt would have not?

I just do not have proof that they had used the comma interval.

Stay tuned...

mikokiko - 2-10-2006 at 11:22 PM

Doesn't seem like anyone's interested...

LeeVaris - 2-11-2006 at 09:46 AM

Please continue Mikokiko !!!!!

This really is quite fanscinating.:bounce:

oudmaker - 2-11-2006 at 10:32 AM

No Mikokiko

I am interested and pretty soon I will give you gentlemen another theory about how these intervals being developed. I am working on some numbers. By the way when I heard those coptic hymes I was realy shocked. They are exactly same kind of music that I study all these years as Turkish music. Than I realized that how correct is a theory that I have heard long time ago about an explanation of the NATURAL INTERVALS.
Another point that our music being used to treat mentally ill people in some places in Anatolia while Europeans were burning the WITCHES.
Regards to everybody

Dincer

al-Halabi - 2-11-2006 at 11:11 AM

Peter,

I hope we can continue this discussion, which touches on key aspects of the region's musical systems. I have tried to contribute, and I am sure others will participate or follow the exchanges with interest.

mikokiko - 2-11-2006 at 05:31 PM

O.k., sounds good guys...
I was worried no one was paying attention to this thread. But let me continue...
O.K., so the question arises again, "We know all this information about how the Greeks were heavily influenced by the Egyptians in music, but how do we know for sure that the Egyptians truly used these comma intervals?"

Well, the answer lies in the instruments that we have preserved from that period of time. Lately, researchers have been able to figure out the scales that the Egyptians used, through analyzing their instruments. They analysed the holes on wind instruments, the frets on stringed instruments, and the ratios of the string lengths of the Egyptian harp (called the Ka-Nun). There was found to be a consistency of intervals of commas. They found a consisteny of 6 different types of intervals, with two others that could be found in rare circumstances.
These eight total different intervals are the following:
4 commas (4/9) - 90.566 cents (known today as the Limma, or Minor Semitone)
5 commas (5/9) - 113.2075 cents (known today as the Apotome, or Major semitone)
6.66 commas (20/27) - 151 cents
8 commas (8/9) - 181.1285 cents (known today as the minor whole tone)
9 commas (1) - 203.7735 cents (knwon today as the major whole tone)
12 commas (1 + 3/9) - 271.698 cents
13 commas (1 + 4/9) (not commonly used) - 294.3395 cents
14 commas (1 + 5/9) (not commonly used) - 316.981 cents

This means that the Egyptians did infact divide the octave into 53 discreet increments, as the Turkish do today. On top of this, each comma, was divided into three equal parts. This 1/3 of a comma, or 1/27 of the whole tone, was known as the buk-nunu. Which means the mouth of the Baby. If you speak the Egyptian Dialect, you will see that Buk is the common word for mouth, and that Nunu, is the name we often use for little children. This is why we find the interval of 151 cents, which is about 6 2/3 commas, or 20 buk-nunus. This means the octave can be furtherly divided into 159 increments. What a difference from the 12 semitone division of the Western octave, and the 24 quartertone division of the modern Arabic octave. This 159 microtone octave is definately the result of the Natural scale, and the need to produce an unlimited variety of sound intervals.

The ancient Egyptians themselves placed soooo much importance on music. It was vital to life, and no event, whether tremendously significant, or very unsignificant was left without the accompniment of music. Every occasion would be uncomplete without music. Their beliefs were also grounded on their musical structures. It is amazing to see how the Egyptians connected the structure of their scale with their beliefs!

As mentioned previously, there was a man named Thoth, whom the Egyptians believed to be some god-like man. As Plato describes him to the one who first discerned the natural sounds. To him also was attributed the discerning of the connection of music with the stars and astronomy. As back then, astronomy, music, medicine, and all these fields were inseperable. Not in Egypt only, but in Greece also.
Diodorus of Sicily in his first book states the connection of astronomy with music to have first thought of by Thoth:
"It was be Tehuti [Thoth]. according to ancient Egyptians...[who] was the first to observe the orderly arrangement of the stars and the harmony of the musical sounds and their nature."

Because of these beliefs, the Egyptians placed much importance on the numbers, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9. The Number 9 was significant of the nine realms, the seven metaphyscial (Heavens), and the two physcial (Twin Earths). This they connected to the nine commas of the whole tone. The number seven significant of the seven space bodies, the seven days of week, the seven Egyptian vowels, and the seven metaphysical realms. These they connected to the seven tonal degrees of the diatonic scale, which they knew. They believed that the week began at a high note, and ended at a low one:
Saturn - Saturday (Si)
Jupiter - Sunday (La)
Mars - Monday (Sol)
Sun - Tuesday (Fa)
Venus - Wednesday (Mi)
Mercury - Thursday D (Re)
Moon - Friday - C (Do)
They believed that the movement of the spheres was melodious (change of speed, direction, orbit distance, and size), and that the universe was a symphony of order.

The number Eight was considered the divine and complete number of Tehuti. This they connected with the eight succesive notes of the octave.

The belief of the two physical earthly realms corresponds to the plagal and authentic modes used by the Egyptians. This is because they believed that this earth had a twin were each of our unkown twins preside. So the difference between the eigth and ninth realms (the twin worlds), if we are to speak in musical terms, was the comma.

Thus, by the shifting of any musical whole tone, in any scale eighter higher to 9 commas, or lower to an interval of 8 commas, we change the whole scale, to a plagal mode of the authentic one.

This is similar to the Oktoechos system that has eight modes, four authentic, and a plagal for each authentic mode.

This brings us to the significance of the number four. There were Three Seasons in the Egyptian Year, and for each Season, four months of 30 days each. Thus there were 12 months, with 5 days at the end of the year, (or 6 in the leap year), often called the "Little Month." This placed much more importance on the structure of the scale. And they connected these four months per season to the tetrachord of four notes.

Stay tuned for information on the Structure of the Egyptian Scales...

al-Halabi - 2-11-2006 at 08:16 PM

It is interesting that al-Farabi (10th century) lists all the same intervals you listed for ancient Egyptian music as part of the tone and modal system of his time, with the exception of the 271 cents interval (which is the augmented second commonly used in the Hijaz mode). These intervals appear specifically in the fretting he gave for the oud, and also in the tetrachords/pentachords he identified as part of the modal system. Al-Farabi built his analysis of the tone system on the ancient Greek system, which may explain this remarkable match with the ancient Egyptian system. Today Turkish makams are based on these very same intervals, with the exception of the 14 commas interval. It's striking that none of the 8 ancient Egyptian intervals remained unique to ancient Egypt, and that they were all used in the wider region for millennia afterwards, all the way to our day. Amazing continuities.

My participattion

sydney - 2-11-2006 at 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mikokiko
Doesn't seem like anyone's interested...


Hey man ... I love this thread and I am sure lots of members here are enjoying it too.

Keep going man. Thanks for explaing in details for us.

Here is a coptic tune called E-aghapi. or E-agapi. I am sure you can tell us all about it in details Miko. I play and you explain :D

It is played by Sydney Coptic Trio.


Medhat Bolous - Cello. Medhat is the son of Mr. Magdy Bolous who played his cello with Oum Kolthom.
Andy Hanna - Piano - did not join in this tune.
and myself on the oud.

enjoy

mikokiko - 2-11-2006 at 10:55 PM

BEAUTIFUL MUSIC!! I love your guys' playing...

mikokiko - 2-11-2006 at 11:00 PM

Quote:

"Hey man ... I love this thread and I am sure lots of members here are enjoying it too. Keep going man. Thanks for explaing in details for us.


No problem man. I love to simplify things for you guys. This is my greatest interest and I love sharing it with others. Rarely do I get this chance, so I am taking advantage of it.

oudmaker - 2-12-2006 at 11:23 AM

Very nice. It uses exactly same intervals of Turkish music. The difference was on the beat. It seems like the music sentences represent some sort of USUL but I could not recognize it. I am sure it is not a simple beat. Can somebody explain or comment on the beat please.
Regards

Dincer

mikokiko - 2-13-2006 at 04:15 PM

I am not very familiar with the rhythms used in Coptic Music. About half of the hymns we say, use two native Egyptian instruments known as the Daff (like the Cymbals) and Torianto (Like the Traingle). Whenever we use these rhythm instruments they are for the sole purpose of maintaining the tempo and speed during the performance of a hymn. They have nothing to do with the emotions expressed in the hymn, as many people may believe. It has been said though that they did not originate in the early church. The early church used a variaton of instruments with fixed pitch. I tend to believe that these percussion instrumetns were not in use in the early church either, as a lot of the time I feel it does not match with the spirit of the hymn. I also have noticed that people keep adding the Cymbals and Triangle to so many hymns. They can also be rather annoying, when they are loud, and are being used for the sounds they make themselves (as opposed to be just for keeping the rhythm in complicated hymns, or with large choirs).

Also, the daff and torianto should not be loud and clashing, because they ruin the atmosphere of the church hymn. Generally there are not much variation in rhythms. The three most common are Ad Libitum, Duple meter, and triple meter.

More to come on the structure of the ancient Egyptian scale...
(I will be tying all this information very soon with Coptic Music)

mavrothis - 2-13-2006 at 06:36 PM

Hi,

This is a great thread man, I've learned a lot and have been inspired to think about a lot of things from reading this. I just wanted to add my own perspective to this. First of all, I think it is very likely that Pythagoras applied his own research to ideas and tones that were already in use, at least tones that were very close to what he worked on scientifically. It's very logical to assume that the Ancient Egyptians were very advanced in music and were aware of and using these tones, at least roughly (there's no way of knowing for sure, this all mostly speculation). There is no record of anyone before Pythagoras mapping out the natural tones, though the physical evidence found in the instruments shows practical use of the natural tones, which could mean any of several things:

1. Someone before him did this work (possibly in Egypt), and over time the actual scientific principles of the music were partly forgotten, and Pythagoras simply rediscovered these findings.

2. Pythagoras applied scientific measurement to tones and musical ideas that were in practice in his day but not studied in as much depth.

3. Pythagoras studied principles of music that were well-defined by others, in his own lifetime and possibly in Egypt, and simply confirmed their findings with his own research.

Either way, his work is all that remains for us from this part of the world focusing on these naturally occuring tones. This in itself makes it invaluable, b/c otherwise it would even harder to guess at the sound of ancient music from any part of this region.

Another thing mentioned in this thread was the possibility that Ancient Greeks were descendants of the Egyptians. There have been several attempts to try and prove this, but each time the theory was shown to have zero credibility, with a basis limited to very weak myths. Most evidence shows that the Greek tribes, including the Dorian, were from Europe, and their artifacts/architecture don't seem very related to those of the Ancient Egyptians. The linguistic differences also do not point to such a direct lineage, the Greek alphabet is based on the Phoenician, with a few additions (notably vowels). If Greeks came from Egypt, why would they abandon their own language/writing system, etc? On pre-Mycenean Greek Crete the architecture resembles Egyptian styles more, and the older, pre-Mycenean Greek civilization there is believed to possibly have ties to Egypt (again speculation - the similiarities could have been as easily from trade and influence as they could have been from actual colonization from Egypt).

The last thing I wanted to discuss is what seems to be the attempt to directly tie the Ancient Egyptians and their music to today's Copts. This is a sensitive subject, I know, as a Greek I often bristle at things that seem to try and lessen my ethnic "legitimacy" which come from all directions, East and West. However, I think it's fair to point out that the Coptic language contains many elements from Hellenistic Greek. This is from the influence of Alexander the Great and his successors in Egypt who combined both Egyptian and Greek elements of culture over a very extended period of time. Therefore, if the language itself cannot be considered free of Greek elements, then neither can any other part of the culture, including music.

This may mean nothing more than that ancient elements of Egyptian music, preserved in Ancient Greek music, were further preserved during the Hellenistic period of Egypt. But logically, there were probably Greek elements that were separate or evolved also preserved and so it is nearly impossible to define one from the other using modern Greek or Coptic music. Also missing from this discussion are the Mesopotamian civilizations, which some believe date back further than the Egyptians. Many of their instruments have also been discovered, and it is quite possible that they, or even earlier civilizations we don't really know of yet began the "search" for the natural tones.

The world is much older than 8000 years, but we really don't know much about history before then (or even around that cut off point). I'm not trying to say that this discussion is not valid or important, actually, it is very refreshing and inspiring and points out how much respect and awe the Ancient Greeks had for Egypt (and rightfully so).

I just want to remind us all that though we should always challenge ourselves and anything that is generally accepted, we should also be sure to know the difference between speculation/opinion and facts.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I hope you guys find it relevant.

Take care,

mavrothis

I think you are right Mav.

sydney - 2-13-2006 at 07:41 PM

In the coptic church today we still have lots of coptic hymns that we really sing in coptic and greek then arabic at the same time. The greek langauge is still used even in our mass today. There are a lot of missing solid information that we can not prove today which makes it very hard to know the difference between speculation/opinion and facts.

Miko,

Coptic churches all over the world have decons with many different experiences, knowledge and also different levels of music understnding. Some of them have a very sensitive ears for tempo and some of them got nothing to do with it and should not even touch either the Cymbals the Traingle during the mass beause they make nothing but noise. Like any musical insturament. If not used by a good player you get noise not music. So my point is Cymbals and traingles are important and have been in the coptic church for many years - if used properly they give a wonderful flavor the the hymns in the church.

Mav.

Do you use Cymbals and Traingle in the Greek chruch?

mikokiko - 2-13-2006 at 09:24 PM

Mavrothis,
I do not completely agreee with everything you have wirtten in your post, but nevertheless, I respect your views and opinions.

Firstly, I'd like to make clear that it is well known fact, that the Coptic language, is widely considered to be the last form of ancient Egyptian. It consists of the Greek alphabet, however it contains 7 letters that are borrowed from the Egyptian demotic. These 7 letters were borrowed because, not all the Greek letters could accurately represent the sounds that had to be pronounced in pure Egyptian words. However, i do agree with you that Coptic, has so many Greek loan words. However, most of these Greek words are words used for the Christian belief. For example, there are two words for Spirit in Coptic. One being Pi-epnevma, while the other, Pi-nifi. The former being the Greek loan word, and the latter being the original Egyptian. So, why did they borrow these Greek words? Because they wanted the understanding of these new words to be Christian. The old Egyptian religious words, such as spirit, and Almighty, were associated with pagan ideas. Thus they wanted to borrow many Greek words, to associate them with the new Christian understandings.

This is also due to Greek influence. Legend holds, that the first Egyptians preached to in Alexandria, were really Greeks.

I never stated anywhere that the Greeks ancestors were the Egyptians, rather the Dorians' ancestors were the Egyptians. Guess who spread their alphabet to the Pheonicans? The Egyptians! They are considered to be the ones who established the first well known alphabet.

Secondly, I do well acknowledge that our Coptic church has a huge amount of Greek influence. Many hymns today are infact borrowed from the Byzxantine Church from the Resurrection and Christmas. And many parts of the liturgy closely resemble the Byzantine musical art. I was going to discuss this later on during this thread (I will go into more detail about this later on).

Thirdly, my ideas about Pythagoras borrowing a lot of his theory from the Egyptians is backed up by the fact that he himself spent a huge chunk of his life in Egypt, studying music and the Egyptian mysteries with an Egyptian high priest. The Greeks also have had great connections with the Egyptians for centuries and centuries, and it is undoubtful that the both the Egyptians and Greeks had been influenced by eachother.

I also, no where stated that the natural tones were first discovered by the Egyptians, but rather it was their belief. Natural intervals are something intrinsic, i would dare to say. Who here can claim to sing with equal-tempered intervals? I can't for the least. So we need to acknowledge that these natural tonal intervals are not something that someone invents, discovers, or even develops a system for. For even Western Music before the ninteenth century used Natural intervals. Equal-temperment is a new Western Modern idea that first started in the late eighteenth century. This influenced so many other cultures around the world. The Indian raga, the Arabic Maqam, and so many others.

Last but not least, though there are great influences and traces of Greek art in the Coptic Church, I would argue that it is much more of an Egyptian church that has inherited the Egyptian oriental arts, with influences from various nations (Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic). For example, the Coptic Church today, still uses the old Egyptian Calendar, with the same name of the months. Its Iconography still retains symbols and art styles identicial to those of the art found on the temple walls. (Ma'at Law of Balance, Anba Barsoum) The rituals that we perform in church today have so many traces with the rituals of Pagan Egypt. Things even as common as names of Coptic saints, such as Mena, have Pharaonic roots.

So, undoubtly our Church is much more Egyptian than anything else.

Sorry for the delay for the information on Egyptian scale, it will be coming soon

Oudist - 2-14-2006 at 01:44 AM

Mikokiko,

What does "Ka-Nun" mean in Ancient Egyptian? I understand that "Ka" is spirit...

Oudist.

mar-mar - 2-14-2006 at 02:03 PM

if i have correct understanding, kanun is not an ancient Egyptian word but an Arabic word which means "the law." great work mikokiko once again. btw, i'm miamimarmar on coptichymns.net :wavey:

mar-mar

mavrothis - 2-14-2006 at 02:18 PM

Hi Mikokiko,

I don't think we disagree that much, probably if you look at what I posted about Pythagoras again you'll see that.

Greek influence in Egypt started long before Christianity, so I think it is doubtful that only Christian words are used in Coptic (but I am not familiar with Coptic...so I can't give examples). Of course I'm sure the Greek spoken in Egypt during and after the Hellenistic era was also greatly influenced by the Egyptian language.

May I ask what are you basing your belief on the Dorians' ancestry being Egyptian? I don't see any proof of that. Why would Egyptians spread Phoenician instead of Egyptian? Honestly, I don't think there is any evidence, whether it be linguistic or based on archaeological evidence that shows this.

Can you please be more clear on this point?

Sydney,

No, we don't use cymbals, but oddly we often have organs here in the US. Definitely not traditional, an unfortunate Western addition. I believe only in N. America will you find this, everywhere else it is strictly vocal music.

Thanks,

mav

Brian Prunka - 2-14-2006 at 02:56 PM

This is indeed an interesting thread. Mikokiko, you raise a lot of interesting ideas--I'd like more references to your sources whenever possible.

Qanun/Kanun is related to the Greek kanon, which means "rule", "standard" or "model" (at least according to my dictionary). The english word canon comes from the Greek via the Romans.
I guess it's the rule because everyone tunes to the qanun.

I'd be interested in anyone's explanation of how the comma-defined or quarter-tone intervals can be justified as "natural" intervals.
The natural intervals, which occur in all music (though as previously noted, less often in western music), I thought were generally understood to be described by integer ratios.
For example:
an octave is 2:1; the higher note vibrates twice for every vibration of the lower note.
a perfect fifth is 3:2; the higher note vibrates 3 times for every 2 vibrations of the lower note.
a major third is 5:4; the higher note vibrates 5 times for every 4 vibrations of the lower note.

as far as I know, the intervals used in Arabic and Turkish music (and apparently Coptic music) cannot be described this way. The comma interval itself is (or can be) derived this way, which is the only way I can see that one might call the system "natural"--seems kind of a stretch to me, though. I should note, though, that I don't see this as devaluing the eastern musical systems. If anything, it makes it more intriguing: how is it that something that is relatively counter-intuitive yield so much subtle beauty?

mikokiko - 2-14-2006 at 04:06 PM

Actually Ka-Nun was an Egyptian term used for their Zither Instrument. Many people argue, that the modern-day Qanun was a descendant of such an instrument, although there was found to be a very similar instrument in Mesopotamia around the same time. The word Ka here means personification/embodiment, while nun means the world. So the Ka-Nun is the embodiment of the world.

I am sorry for not giving references for some of my findings Brian. On the discovery of the Egyptian comma, it was found in many of the preserved instruments. There was found a consistency with the 6 intervals noted previously, with a few exceptions found here and there. These researches conducted on the instruments, were done by the Egyptsound team and the Tehuti Research Foundation. Brian, I never said that Coptic Music uses the comma intervals, just ancient Egyptian music, however I was going to mention later on that these intervals do fit the best with Coptic Music today. This is only my personal opinion. Someone else can argue that it sounds better with just quarter, half, and whole tones.

Mavrothis, the majority of Greek words used in Coptic are used in prayer and in "Christian context," however there are also many words that are commonly used in Coptic that are not Egyptian at all such as "kosmos," meaning the world, or "Psali," meaning song.

I also do not have a strict stance on my belief that the Dorians' ancestors were Egyptians, but found that this fact did support my research. I base this fact on what Herodotus said in his book of histories, I do not know if he actually based this on belief or fact. He himself came from a Dorian town and tells us, "...if one were to trace back, generation by generation, the lineage of Danae the daughter of Acrisius, the chiefs of the Dorians would turn out to be true-born Egyptians...Enough has been said about all this. Others have explained how and through what achievements they became kings over the Dorians, despite being Egyptians, and so I will not go into that. I will record other things that others have not picked up."

About the language, it is a well known fact, that the origin of the Pheonican alphabet were the Egyptian Hieroglyphics. The Greeks are not alone in having their language rooted in Pheonican one. The Arabic, Hebrew, and latin languages have thier origin also in Pheonican.

Peyman - 2-14-2006 at 04:27 PM

This is an interesting discussion and upon al-Halabi's older threads on Farabi, I started reading a translation on Farabi's book on music. I was more interested to know learn about the instruments (oud, tanbur and robab) he discusses but have come across his description of the commas.
Anyway, I have read that the Kanoon is a take on the word "Arghanoon" (pronounced 'er-gheh-noon') which is the ancient Persian name for the same instrument. It is used a lot in ancient poems along side the word "chang" (Harp). But that's not the end of the story (or the beginning). Arghanoon (sometimes pronounced Orghanoon) was originally how the persians referred the name given to the Greko-Roman "organs," made from pipes on top of a box that worked by blowing air into them. I am not sure if this is a greek word or the persian pronounciation of "organ." The word was later used to describe the early kanoons that were made from leather on top of a rectangular box with gut strings.

mikokiko - 2-14-2006 at 07:48 PM

That's pretty cool,
O.K., I think its time I start discussing some of the discoveries and the theories of the Tehuti Research Foundation about the ancient Egyptian Scales.

Researchers found that the first four notes tuned to any Egyptian instrument equaled the Natural Fourth of 498.11 cents, 22 commas. They found that each tetrachord always equaled a natural fourth. Every tetrachord was found to contain two whole tones (Minor or/and Major), and one semitone (Limma or Apotome).

Tetrachords, in case some of you didn't know, are the building blocks of the scales of any mode. They consist of four succesive notes.

In Turkish Music, the makam consists of a tetrachord and a pentachord (five succesive notes). The tetrachord or pentachord may be first. There are about 6 basic Turkish Tetrachords, Çârgâh; Bûselik; Kürdî; Rast; Ussâk; and Hicaz. All of them except for Hicaz consist of 22 commas; the natural fourth. Hicaz consists of one extra comma. If you add one major whole tone to any tetrachord, you get a pentachord with the same name (except for Ussâk). Thus the six basic pentachords Çârgâh; Bûselik; Kürdî; Rast; Hüseynî; and Hicaz, all equal the natural fifth of 31 commas (702.11 cents), again with the exception of Hicaz which consists of 32 commas.

In Arabic Music tetrachords (or chords in general) are known as agnas. However the agnas of Arabic Music can either be Trichords (some books leave these out), Tetrachords, or Pentachords (although, also known as 3uqud). They can either be disjunct or conjunct agnas, and in some cases there can be more than two agnas to a Maqam. The agnas are primarily what make up the mood or feel for a Maqam. Usually the first gins of a Maqam tells you what Fasilah (Maqam Family) it belongs to. For example there is the Sikah Fasilah, and the Higaz Fasilah, where all the maqamat have either the Sikah Gins or Higaz Gins as their lower tetrachord.

Back to Egyptian Music...

The Egyptian diatonic (scales with seven notes, with the last note at the end to make an octave) scales were always found to contain two tetrachords, whether conjunct with one additional note, two disjointed tetrachords with no additional notes, or overlapping tetrachords with additional notes. These variations resulted in some scales being more tense, than other relaxed ones.

Thus there were 6 types of Tetrachords (This has also proved to be found consistent when analyzing scales of Egyptian instruments). The Tehuti Research Foundation divides these 6 into two equal groups: Cyclic and Divisive Tetrachords. Divisive Tetrachords contain one major whole tone, one minor whole tone, and one apotome. While, Cyclic Tetrachords contain two major whole tones and one limma. This was so that each tetrachord could give its "balanced feel." Why? Because each tetrachord is required to add up to 22 commas (Natural Fourth), as they found occured in all cases.

As noted before, there are two types of semitones, the minor (limma), and the major (apotome). Wherever these semitones were located in the scale was where the "energy center" is loacated. This can also be known as the point of tension in the scale.
Cyclic:
Semitone Above
9 - 9 - 4 (Equates to Cargah Tetrachord)

Semitone Below
4 - 9 - 9 (Equates to Kurdi Tetrachord)

Semitone in the Middle
9 - 4 - 9 (Equates to Buselik Tetrachord)

Divisive:
Semitone Above
9 - 8 - 5 ( Equates to Rast Tetrachord)

Semitone Below:
5 - 9 - 8 (Equates to Segah Tetrachord)

Semitone in the Middle:
9 (or 8) - 5 - 8 (or 9) (8 - 5 - 9 is Ussak Tetrachord)

The different sizes and order of the intervals in a tetrachord determine its character and ethos.

This is what gives the scale its feeling. This is of course taking out of consideration the Egyptian modes which we most probably will never know much about. Since each mode contained certain melodic flow, went along with certain rhythms and had cadences to go along with, as well as a specific scale. Thus the scale is only a specific order of intervals that is used for a mode. A mode contains a scale and a specified melodic flow.

We can compare this to the modal systems of today's Eastern Music. I believe this has been explained before on this site, but I'll just re-state this information. In Turkish Music, there is the seyir, meaning the "path." There are three different types of seyir, ascending, descending, and ascending-descending seyir, with each containing their own melodic flow. The seyir is what determines how a Makam's melodic flow will sound. Thus we have the same scale for two totally different makamlar. Makam Ussak, and Makam Bayati both have the exact same scales, although they have different Seyir; Bayati having ascending-descending seyir, while Ussak having ascending seyir.

This also applies to Arabic Music, but I have not seen it dealt with in depth as much as it has been with Turkish Music. It is called Sayr in Arabic Music, and for Maqam Bayati, there are at least four different types of Sayr. There is maqam Hussein Saba, which uses the third tonal degree almost as its second tonic (this is my own definition), and Maqam hussein Niriz, using the lower Leading tone beneath the starting tonic more than it usually would. Its funny, cause Maqam Bayati can be found a lot in Coptic Music, and I can think up at least four examples for each of these different variations on Maqam Bayati. We will discuss these later.

Even in Persian Music, can we find that each Dastgah has an associated formula for melodic intervention known as the mayeh. In the context of Persian music, the mayeh includes guidelines for the cadences, hierarchy of tones, related rhythms and acceptable melodic patterns for the Dastgah. Perhaps the mayeh is the most specific melodic flow of the three different meloic flow of the different Eastern musical cultures (Turkish, Arabic, and Persian). All these melodic regulations are what help us achieve a specific psychological outcome from the mode we hear. The melodic regulations for the Egyptian mode, known as the asba (like Maqam for Arabs, Makam for Turks, Dastgah for Persians, and Raga for Indians) are mentioned by Plato in his Collected Dialogues from the 7th century BC:
"That nation [Egypt], it would seem long enough ago recognized the truth we are now affirming, that poses and melodies must be good, if they are to be habitually practiced by the youthful generation of citizens. So they drew up the inventory of all the standard types, and consecrated specimens of them in thier temples...in this matter of music in Egypt, it is a fact, and a though-provoking fact, that it has actually proved possible, in such a sphere, to canonize melodies which exhibit an intrinsic rightness permanently by law...So, as I was saying before, if we can but detect the intrinsically right in such matters, in whatever degree, we should reduce them to law and system without misgiving, since the appeal to feeling which shows itself in the perpetual craving for novel musical sensation can, after all, do comparitavely little to corrupt choric art, once it has been consecrated, by deriding it as out of fashion..."

So, the Egyptians, at least according to this great philosopher, had their own regulations and laws for music, which I liken to the melodic regulations drawn out for the modes of the Eastern musical cultures of today.

Because of these laws, which characterize the asba, we most probably will never know for sure what the different types of asabi that were used. We can only predict today, of what we have of Coptic Music, and the old Egyptian village folkore music of Upper Egypt (both Coptic and Egyptian folk music, are said to sound almost identical in musical style, and according to some ethnomusicologists, both share the same musical ancestor: Pharaonic music).

More to come on connecting the wonders of ancient Egypt with the inherited treasures of Coptic Egypt...

mavrothis - 2-15-2006 at 08:05 AM

Hi,

I don't want to take away from the core of this topic, but I just wanted to state that the Greek language is not directly descended from Egyptian or Phoenician. The Ancient Greeks simply took the existing Phoenician alphabet and applied it to Greek, a very different language. Also, the use of written vowels first came about at this time. All the ancient languages of the region are believed to have come from one mother language (at least many think so) from a very early time, but there is no reason to believe that Greek is directly descended from either Phoenician or Egyptian.

Archaeological evidence does not seem to support in any way that the Ancient Greeks were not European in origin, nor do any linguistic studies. There certainly is no strong Greek-Egyptian tie other than in trade and influence, which is very clear as far trade and general traveling would allow in those times.

That's all about that, I'm really enjoying the musical and historical aspects of this thread. Thanks for all the great insight, the research on the Ancient Egyptian instruments is really exciting. It's a great feeling to consider how tied we are through the music, it's one of the most rewarding aspects of playing this music. I hope that my views here are not seen as negative or something, I am really enjoying the discussion.

Take care,

mav

ps - I think Beyati and Ussak in Ottoman music both are ascending/descending, but have other big differences, such as dominant notes, phrasing, and timing - Ussak generally works its way to the fourth, while Beyati generally goes directly to it like Huseyni goes to the fifth.

mikokiko - 2-15-2006 at 12:14 PM

Mavrothis, your views are in no way negative to this thread. They are adding to the flavour of the discussion and you are helping us learn here. Thankyou for your views.

I just wanted to let you know that I in know way stated that the Greek alphabet came directly from the Egyptian. It's just that most scholars believe that the Pheonican alphabet was derived from the Egyptian hieroglyphics. The Greek modern alphabet is thought to have descended from the Pheonican alphabet. My friend who has studied classical Greek, tells me that the alpha did in fact come from the Egyptian letter Akhom (The eagle).

Concerning Herodotus' histories, as I stated before I am not firm in my belief that the Dorians have really descended from the Egyptians. You are most probably right about the ancient Greeks not descending from the Egyptians.

If Herodotus really wrote his book from a mythological point of view, than we can conclude that the Dorians' ancestors were most likely not Egyptians. This is only one point out of many I used to provide evidence for the fact that the Greeks in the past have had many connections with the Egyptian nation. There is more to come about the Byzantine Oktoechos from the Coptic View and how they are similar to some of the Turkish Makamlar, which in turn are also similar to some of the scales used in Coptic Music. This can point out the connection these two nations (Greek & Egyptian) had.

Aside from all this, I am prety sure that Makam Ussak and Makam Bayati's major difference lies in their seyir. Of course there are other differences that you have mentioned (I lack a lot of knowledge in the field of Turkish Music). However you may be right. Obviously this does not change the fact that you can have two different makamlar with same scales, because of their difference in melodic seyir.

Peyman - 2-15-2006 at 02:59 PM

I know little about the makams. I know more about the Persian Dastgah system and since we're discussing makams, I am curious to ask if anyone knows whether there is an equivalent to "Bayat-eh Tork" (Turkish Bayat) of Persian dastgahs. I use the word equivalent loosely, becuase I am noticing that even though names apprear to be the same, the makam version and the radif version are very different. In Iran, the Quran singers use this mode a lot, as well as the moazzens.

mikokiko - 2-15-2006 at 03:17 PM

yes, it is a very popular mode. It is common to Coptic Music also, and Arabic Music. They also found an Egyptian Nay based on a D-scale with intervals very similar to the Turkish rendering of Makam Bayati.

al-Halabi - 2-15-2006 at 04:19 PM

From what I know, the Avaz of Bayat-e Tork is close to Mahur, which is similar to the major tonality, and also has elements of Shur, which is roughly equivalent to Bayati. So there is some similarity with the Arab/Turkish Bayati, although the types of gushes used in the dastgah determine its main feel and character.

Peyman - 2-16-2006 at 06:04 AM

I guessed that Bayati might be the 'equivalent'. Thanks for clearing it.

mavrothis - 2-16-2006 at 06:16 AM

Hey,

Sorry for my mistake with Herodotus, wow, that was a big one! I have definitely been away from the books too long! My apologies! How on earth did I forget about the Persian wars?!?! His history was based on his own experiences, interviews, and his own personal views on events, which though skewed, does not make his history based on mythical figures. I'ved edited that part of my post, and promise to try and not rush into anymore posts!

About Beyati/Ussak, I only wished clarify a few details (which I am still trying to learn all the time myself), your point is certainly made about how various makams can have the same core scale.

Sorry again for my very imperfect contribution! :(

Take care,

mavrothis

al-Halabi - 2-16-2006 at 06:24 AM

Peyman, the closest Persian equivalent to Bayati is dastgah of Shur. Its basic scale corresponds to that of Bayati, with the same sequence of intervals. Bayat-e Tork does touch on Shur in some gushes, but overall it's not really similar.

mikokiko - 2-16-2006 at 08:16 AM

No problem Mavrothis,
we all make mistakes. I myself had no clue about the more specific details about Makam Ussak and Makam Bayati; thanks for pointing those out for us.

More to come on the discovery of the ancient Egyptian scale...

Peyman - 2-16-2006 at 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by al-Halabi
Bayat-e Tork does touch on Shur in some gushes, but overall it's not really similar.

Al-Halabi, I was only thinking about the Daramad of Bayateh Tork. The gooshehs will always sway a dastgah up and down. But Shoor itself is considered the mother mode in Persian music, giving rise to different dastgahs and avaz. ayateh Tork includes one of these branches.
Bayateh Tork is also known as Bayateh Zand, after the Turks that migrated to south of Iran, near Shiraz.
Also as you said, Bayateh Tork is similar to Mahoor. In G (sol) it's almost identical to Mahoor in C (do). As a matter of fact some mahoor gooshehs can be played in B. Tork (But I have never seen Bayateh Tork being modulated to, or it's gooshehs being played in Mahoor, i.e. Dogah). Anyway, it's my favorite mode to jam in :D that's why I was inquiring about it.
Sorry, I hope I didn't throw your discussion off topic Mikokiko.

mikokiko - 2-16-2006 at 11:20 AM

No problem Peyman. Just as long as you don't take it any further... you can use the U2U for further discussion, since it seems that it is only you and Al-Halabi who are joining in it.

zalzal - 2-16-2006 at 01:52 PM

Sorry but i am not adding nothing new. I just want to confirm my enormous interest on this thread although i can not add nothing interesting.
So i confirm that we are many to join this thread....."spiritually" and ask you please to share here as much as possible instead of exchanging through U2U.
Anyway, if of any interest, I was just reading the french author Frédéric Lagrange book "Musiques d'Egypte", a good introduction for "ignorants" like me, (the book is prefaced by Christian Poché).
There is a small chapter on coptic lythurgical music where he just remarks that "in adition to evident pharaonics and greek origins there are reminiscences fm Antiochian church and synagogal songs."
He is citing scholars Erian and Menard.

Also i found this links which abounds on what is being said here. Sorry if they are redundant to you.
http://www.coptic.org/music/copmusic.htm
http://www.coptic.org/music/keraza75.htm

This one by Rene Menard for french readers is very interesting
http://www.coptic.org/music/prbl.htm

I translate very quickly part of the article. Apologize the approximate english
"Regarding the problem of modality, everything is still to be done. Villoteau cites the testimony of a coptic singer qho confirmed him the existence of different tons. That is all that Villoteau could seriously said about the question because he recognize having fallen asleep during the audition of these 10 tons.
Personally i have tried to research on this subject and i have been told fm diferent parties that in principle there existed 8 tons in the coptic music.
Fm these 8 tons some were reserved for parties, some others for fasting days. Some of these 8 tons, finally? seems to have disappeared completely nowadays......

.......Among the songs which we have notated some are evolving almost exclusively in a diminished tetrachord. Their mode could be assimilated to ancient dorian (what theoriciens of modern melkite music call by mistake lydian mode first forme. Other songs (Sunday's and holidays Trysagion for example could be assimilated to ancient hypolidien. But all of this must be deepened at, and it might be necessary to make first a serious study on the modality of pharaonic music in order to study benefically the question of modality in coptic music."

Is it what you are doing Mikokiko ??

zalzal - 2-16-2006 at 01:53 PM

Of course Mikokiko if above diverts fm the direction of the thread just redirect it at your convenience.

mikokiko - 2-16-2006 at 04:21 PM

Zalzal, no don't worry I was just about to talk about this...
Quote:
Among the songs which we have notated some are evolving almost exclusively in a diminished tetrachord. Their mode could be assimilated to ancient dorian (what theoriciens of modern melkite music call by mistake lydian mode first forme. Other songs (Sunday's and holidays Trysagion for example could be assimilated to ancient hypolidien. But all of this must be deepened at, and it might be necessary to make first a serious study on the modality of pharaonic music in order to study benefically the question of modality in coptic music." Is it what you are doing Mikokiko ??


I myself think it is crucial when studying the modes of Coptic Music to also study and be familiar with the theory of some of the middle Eastern musical cultures and their history, and the Pharaonic music, because I firmly believe they are all related to eachother through research.

The modes of Coptic Music have undoubtly been influenced by a great number of musical heritages. Of these is Greek music (Pre-Byzantine, and Byzantine), Hebrew music, Arabic Music (Arab invasion of mid-seventh century), and Syriac Music of Antioch (The Coptic and Syrian Churches had very strong ties with eachother in the first six centuries of Christianity, in fact there is one Coptic Monastery in Egypt which bears the name "Al-Deir Al-Souriani," meaning the Syrian Monastery).

I again strongly believe our basic Egyptian musical elements have remained intact through the centuries, until this day. However the popular rendering of most of our hymns has greatly changed in this past century. Thank God, that a great Coptic musical institute was started in the 50's, known as the Higher Institute of Coptic Studies, in which the director of the Institute, Dr. Ragheb Moftah, records saying that he along with Dr. Ernest newlandsmith (British Musicologist) took out all the "Arabic debris" in our hymns (this happened in the 1930's, but that's another story, that we don't want to get into here(http://www.coptic.org/music/keraza75.htm)). (For many reasons I believe this to possible to some extent...I will talk about this in greater detail later on...) I have to say the way they present their hymns are P-E-R-F-E-C-T!!! I have never heard a more "Coptic" way of chanting the hymns. They retain the original spirit, and the way the say the liturgy and its hymns sound very "Natural," and it "flows" much better than the average priest and choir of today would render the hymns. Trust me on this!

The eight modes (ten modes) you spoke about I will discuss soon, and they have strong ties to the Greek church...

oudmaker - 2-16-2006 at 08:22 PM

mikokiko
You said and I quote " I firmly believe they are all related to each other" then you continue " through research" I think we are hooked up too much into research rather then siting back and think HOW COME? How come people from different geography and time again and again come up with same sounds and same intervals? Instead of looking for who influenced who: why not to THINK -not research- and try to find out what was the world's first musician's ear got the sound and intervals from? What influenced him? Where he got an undestanding of music period? I got bombarded with names, books and quotations in this tread; why we don't try to research the real source of influence? That is what I am doing please help me.
Regards
Dincer

mikokiko - 2-16-2006 at 10:11 PM

oudmaker,
do not worry, all this researching and information will come to an end soon. All this researching will wear off soon, and the "academic" view of music will be switched to a more philosophical and psychological standpoint.

Concerning the origin of the natural intervals, I believe the first musician sang in Natural intervals. It is impossible to sing in even-temperament. When I sing a song based in a Western major Scale of equal-temperament, do you think I will really sing in exact 100 and 200 cent intervals? There is no way! I am a human being, and like a natural instrument, my vocal chords can produce natural intervals. Natural intervals are an intrinsic part of music!!! Why, almost all western music used the natural intervals up until the nineteenth century! You see you can limit music and say, "OK, we can only use these three intervals, and no others, with these we are going to form scales and from them, melodies." YOU CAN'T DO THAT TO MUSIC!!! We only use measurements (commas, buk-nunu, quater-tone, semi-tone) to be able to represent and interpret the sound intervals of the different scales. There is an endless variety of natural sounds that we can produce and build with a group of them scales.

Through music, us humans express our emotions, feelings, sentiments, ideas, and thoughts. Music, arguably, is a essential neccesity of life. Sound vibrations are important to us; they keep us healthy, mentally, and even physically, as it has been proved through science. Again, I bring up the ancient Egyptians, because they placed such great importance on music and believed that it was directly related to all the other great mysteries of life, such as astronomy, religion, medicene... The Essentiality of music for the Egyptians, required it to be present at all times and everywhere. There could not be an feast, or occasion left without music. And there could definately not be any innovations in the way the music was played. The youth of the day were strictly warned not to change their musical traditions, for it was, as they thought, THE IDEAL MUSICAL SYSTEM, complete with its songs, modes, scales, rhythms, dances... In the temples, the Egyptian priests healed people with various diseases through the power of music. Pythagoras tells us, "Music can cure madness and schizophrenia if we use it the right way..", Hippocrates alike tell us, "Music is a tool for curing and each patient needs a special kind of music." Plato likewise indicated that music is the means to provide cures for diseases for it finds its humble way of penetrating the human soul especially if it depicts human voices. At the beginning of the rise of Christianity of Egypt, the Copts used the Psalm chanting as a way also to cure psychological and physical diseases, and were able to cure diseases such as epilepsy. A large amount of research has been done on music and it has been found that it could decrease the blood pressure, improve heart rate, induce sleep and relaxation and can help with low blood pressure. It also has been found that plants and animals have very positive and noticeable ways of reacting to music.

This vitality of music, I find was not present with only the Egyptians, but all the ancient and older cultures of the past. The father we go back in time the more music becomes more of a solemn and vital art. And the more we go gorward in time, the more it seems that music is perverted of the once beautiful art it was, because of the pollution of modernism.

I find that this belief of mine is exactly as Villoteau, a French Expeditioner, sent by Napoleon to Egypt in the early nineteenth century, to describe the music of Egypt (Both Secular and Sacred (This includes Coptic Music)), speaks of music in regards to what happens to it over time:
"As we return backwards in time to the ancient eras, we find that music was more prevailing, having a wider amplitude, noble and sober form, and vice versa as we go near to the modern times, musical art starts to loose from its sobriety and austerity to become more trivial and fragile."

Just look and compare, rap, pop, and rock n' roll music with the rich old musical heritages of the Turks, Arabs, and Copts. WHAT A DIFFERENCE!
Modern Music certainly has lost this musical sobriety! Dr. Ernest Newlandsmith describes the modern age of music as "the somewhat spiritually bankrupt state of much of our latter day music."

Music, as Dr. Ragheb Moftah describes it, "...elevates the spirit. It takes it from this tangible materialistic world towards the intangible spiritual world. Art in general and music in particular fleshes out what is spiritual. It is the medium between spirituality and our material life. Every beauty in nature shows elevation and every artistic inspiration demonstrates a level of elation. Music is not fantasy or distraction; it is part of life and one of its most important elements. Musical talents are in each one of us. Some have the strength to express it and others have the strength to feel it, enjoy it, and be touched by it."

This shows, how greatly important music is in our lives. It is our nourishment, WE NEED IT! It is like another form of speech; speech that can better express our inner emotions. This is like what Jacob Jost tells us, saying, "When the capability of speech surceases, the music starts..." Thus, we are bound with soo much variety of music. We have the musical culture of the chinese, and that of the Persians, North Africans, the Spanish, the Greeks, the Russians, and of all the different nations of the world. Music is made up of several languages. You need to understand a certain musical culture, like you would a language. You need to feel the music, be able to express yourself with it, and be able to follow it. This is why when people for the first time hear all those different musical cultures, find that they sound too eccentric, and different than those melodies of what they are used to hearing.

Villoteau, again tells us of the same thing, when describing Egyptian music saying, “Accustomed since early youth to the best works of our composers, I had to tolerate music that rent my ears with its eccentric modulations and ornaments executed by harsh nasal voices, accompanied by instruments either penetrating and discordant, or feeble and muffled. Such were the first impressions...If the Egyptian songs disturbed us, those of the Copts rasped us even more..."

This does not go for music only, but every aspect of a lifestyle that is foreign to us. It becomes hard to get used to it.

So how do I tie all this in with the natural intervals? As I have said before, the natural intervals are limitless. You cannot put limits on them, otherwise, they are not going to be natural. Thus, the greater variety of sounds we are able to use, the more expressive power we can put into a song. Like painting a picture, the more colour we have available, the better we can make the picture look. The Emotions become more specified, and the feeling we get from a scale becomes more appropriated. However with equal-temperament, it's like trying to paint a picture but with only three different colours...

These are just my beliefs, I am open to criticism...

oudmaker - 2-17-2006 at 03:56 AM

mikokiko
Beautiful, keep on going. I can not wait to enjoy your thoughts when you make the switch. I am whole hardly agree with the fact of "natural music" and do practise it for 58 years!
If you don't hear from me more frequently don't think that I give up of this thread. I just don't have enough writing skills in English.
Best Regards
Dincer

mikokiko - 2-18-2006 at 03:14 AM

O.K., this will be my last post on the scales of the ancient Egyptians...
Egyptsound, a research team of Americans and Egyptians have sought out to discover these scales of the ancient Egyptians by observing the preserved Nays from the different Museums. They started with four different ones.

In the past, western ethnomusicologists who studied and researched ancient Egyptian music came to a deadlock because to be able to discover the scales of the Egyptians they had to be able to play the Nays which did not have reeds like the Western flute of today have. They lacked this skill and required modern Egyptian Nay players to be able to play these Nays. So this team made exact replicas and got the a famous Egyptian Nay player to play exact replicas of the Nays.

Before conducting the experiment, the reseatch team were motivated by three unanswered questions:
1. Were the Greeks the first people to know the diatonic scale ?
2. What are the different scales played by the ancient Egyptians ?
3. What are the relation between the ancient Egyptian scales?

All these Nays were made sure to have been made out of nile bamboo, to ensure that these were ancient Egyptian Nays, tuned to ancient Egyptian scales.

After conducting the experiment, the research team found that out of the four Nays there were three that were Diatonic, and one Pentatonic scale dating to the Middle Kingdom. All of the Nays were found to have their sales to add up to approximately 1200 cents, as is the universal musical concept. Out of the four Nays, three of the scales' tonic was F, while one being A. Of these four Nays, all were found to contain microtonal intervals of the Natural scale. The Pentatonic scale is found to be very common among ancient cultures. I can imagine that this Pentatonic scale, containing microtonalities, was something similar to the pentatonic scales of North Africa today. For example Maqam Rast Al-Mayah is a North African pentatonic maqam.

Nay CG 69814 comes from Beni Hassan and dates to the Middle Kingdom. It gives the Pentatonic scale, missing the seventh and third notes of the Diatonic scale. It is based on F.

Nay CG 69817 was found at Deir Al-Medina, and dated back to the 18th dynasty of the New Kingdom. It gives a Diatonic scale (Scale with seven succesive notes, and the tonic (first note) played as the eigth note on octave higher (with a doubled frequency)) of what would be the Western equivalent of an A-minor melodic scale, but again with the fourth note flatter than it would be in Contemporary Western music.

Nay CG 69815 was found at Sakkara with unknown dating and gave a diatonic scale based on F. This one is quite amazing, because it causes a problem for popular musical belief today (I will discuss this later on in this post). This Nay gives a scale very similar to that of Makam Rast (With what would seem to be Makam Rast with an upper Tetrachord equivalent to Gins Nahawand). Nay CG 69816 gave a very similar scale with the third and seventh notes half way between the half step and three-quarter step (This is how they described it).

They concluded the fllowing from these discoveries:
- The ancient Egyptians had a Pentatonic scale in the middle kingdom that developed at the beginning of the new kingdom to a Diatonic Scale.

- The ancient Egyptians had in addition another arabic diatonic scale very similar to Makam Rast which was thought to have originated in Persia. The Persians must have adopted such a scale when they had dwelt in Egypt, and later have transfered to the Arabic Civilization.

- There is a fascinating correlation between the frequencies produced from different flutes which suggests the presence of a means for calibration of these instruments.

All this conclusion came from only four Nays, but the research team believes that if they analyze the other many Nays available in the Museums of Egypt.

Now, there is something very peculiar that I find about these scales. After calculating it myself, I found that each scale did in fact consist of commas and buk-nunu, and that each scale totalled to about 159 buk-nunu (53 commas).

However, when comparing these to the scales of what is used in side the Coptic Church, I found that of these four, three (all the diatonic ones) are in fact used. However the tonic is different. It contains of the same tonal intervals but with a different starting point. For example, Nay CG 69817, gives an A-minor melodic scale if played rom its lowest note, but if played one note up, to a note higher from its initial octave, it plays an almost exact Makam Kurd. And if we raise the tonic one degree higher in the scale of Nay CG 69815, instead of getting Makam Rast, we get Makam Ussak (Maqam Bayati), which I find much more common in practice at church. It is very popular and frequently used (however with toanl interval variatons around its second note, depending on the hymn; this will be discussed in another post). However, I have only found one hymn up till know that uses the same scale as Makam Rast. The same goes with Nay CG 69816, which like Nay CG 69815, gives a similar scale, although giving tonal difference on the third note (a bit more flattened).

Stay tuned for a little brief history on the establishment of the early Coptic Church and its connection with ancient Egypt, the Hebrew Temple, and the ancient Greeks...

oudmaker - 2-18-2006 at 01:48 PM

Mikokiko

I sent you U2U

Dincer

mikokiko - 3-4-2006 at 05:31 PM

Hey guys, sorry for not replying sooner, I have been getting really caught up in my studies lately.

Anyways, as I said, I will be discussing the historical roots and origins of the Coptic Church. In the past, the Christian Old Testament, and the Hebrew Scriptures tell us that many prophets went to Egypt, like Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, the sons of the Israelites, Moses, and Jeremiah. According to the Gospel of St. Matthew the Apostle, in the New Testament, Lord Jesus did travel with His Virgin mother to Egypt. Till this day, the event is celebrated by both Copts and Muslims in Egypt.

Around them middle of the first century, the Evangelist St. Mark came to preach Christianity to the Egyptians. He came through from Upper Egypt, and entered Alexandria through the eastern gate. Alexandria was known to be one of the greatest cities of the world, and the second international city next to Rome. Its lighthouse was one of the seven wonders. Alexandria was also well known for its great palaces and many hotels, and its huge library, known as the largest on in the ancient world, with manuscripts of both Egyptian and Greek philosophers, astronomers and scientists.

So as I was saying, St. Mark entered from the eastern gate, into the Royal Greek quarter of the city, while on the other side, on the west, known as "Rakoti" (Coptic and ancient Egyptian for Alexandria), was primarily occupied by the Egyptians, and in the north was the Jewish quarter. St. Mark spread the Christian faith to all of the different races of people that dwelt in that city; Its population was 750,000 at the time, a mixed population of Egyptians, Greeks, Jews, Nubians, Ethiopians and many other various races. This is like the present population of Jacksonville (Non-metropolitan), Florida, the 13th most populated city in the U.S. at present.

At this time, the primary language among the educated was Greek; whether Egyptian or Nubian or Ethiopian or Jewish. Although the Egyptian language was still in use, but much more so in the lest hellenized cities of Egypt (Thebes - Luxor or Memphis - Cairo). The Egyptian language, as scholars have grouped them, is divided into six main chronological divisons:
1. Archaic Egyptian (before 2600 BC)
2. Old Egyptian (2600 BC – 2000 BC)
3. Middle Egyptian (2000 BC – 1300 BC)
4. Late Egyptian (1300 BC – 700 BC)
5. Demotic (seventh century BC – fifth century AD)
6. Coptic (second – fourteenth century AD)
So, around this time it was the second last stage of the Egyptian language; the Demotic, that was being used among the Egyptian population.

The Egyptians that embraced Christianity towards the middle of the first century, established their own church chants, just as all other nations that embraced christianity developed thier church chants, each according to the genius of their own music. Dr. Ragheb Moftah, who in collaboration of research with other Egyptian musicologists believed, adn theoretically concieved that, "...the Christian inhabitants of the Nile valley, inherited their artistic talents of their ancestors, and their ecclestiastical chants, especially the pathetic ones, have their roots which reach back to the Old Kingdom of ancient Egypt.
Scientific research has proven that the music of the Coptic Church is the most ancient ecclesiastical music in existence, and constitutes the oldest school of music which the world now possesses. The Coptic Church owes the preservation of this monumental and invaluable heritage of its ecclesiastical music to its conservative nature inherited from ancient times."

There is no way of actually confirming this as a truth and fact, but we can assume that many of the Egyptian hymns that were established at that time were greatly influenced, or dare I say, continuations of the ancient Egyptian pharaonic culture. Which makes perfect sense, since when the Egyptians converted they could not change their musical style all of a sudden in order to match the faith. They could not rid their music which lived in their being, as music survives in us and in all of life’s aspects. It persists with every characteristic of culture, heritage, tradition, custom, background and ethnicity. So that when they were inspired to compose these new hymns they did not loose the music, but rather these chants may have well included pharaonic themes, because the musical sentences that were already subconciously stored in the minds of the ancient Egyptians. They were then sent to the mind when they matched the emotions and feelings to be expressed. So, their faith was changed, but their musical identity as Egyptians was retained.

Al-Farabi himself asserted in his book, "The Great Musician," that music cannot be created from nothing. No matter how hard we try when we come to compose a song, we cannot rid ouselves from the influences we have had from our ery young childhood. By the age of 3, one has already developed the fundamentals of his musical background. This is why, I often find that when a Western-born musician enters into the Arab world of music, and attempts at composing, I don't hear that Middle Eastern Arabic "feel" that is missing.

Philo the Jewish Alexandrian philosopher, who was said to be the cousin of St. Mark, recorded for us and described the practices of the early Egyptian Christians:
"They not only practice contemplation but also compose songs and hymns to God in all kinds of meters and melodies, setting them, as might be expected, to solemn measures."

And again, he writes decribing their hymnal orders sayng,
“And then some one rising up sings a hymn which has been made in honor of God, either such as he has composed himself, or some ancient one of some old poet, for they have left behind them many poems and songs in trimetric iambics, and in psalms of thanksgiving and in hymns, and songs at the time of libation, and at the altar, and in regular order, and in choruses, admirably measured out in various and well diversified strophes. And after him then others also arise in their ranks, in becoming order, while every one else listens in decent silence, except when it is proper for them to take up the burden of the song, and to join in at the end; for then they all, both men and women, join in the hymn.”

Many scholars have come to theorize that many of the early hymns of the Coptic Church were really taken from the melodies of ancient church chants which I can perfectly understand, since the Egyptians were extremely conservative in nature towards the art and culture, nothing could be changed! Plato records telling us in description that the Egyptians "...were forbidden to introduce any innovations in music." They taught their youth from their early ages to excell in the Egyptian arts of music, and could not change a thing.

Herotodus, as mentioned before, spoke of the preserved song that the Egyptians claimed to have preserved for very long time:
"This song agrees exactly with that which the Hellenes sing calling on the name of Linos, so that besides many other things about which I wonder among those matters which concern Egypt, I wonder especially about this, namely whence they got the song of Linos. It is evident however that they have sung this song from immemorial time, and in the Egyptian tongue Linos is called Maneros. The Egyptians told me that he was the only son of him who first became king of Egypt, and that he died before his time and was honoured with these lamentations by the Egyptians, and that this was their first and only song."

I can only imagine how beautiful this sorrowful song must have been. It was these kinds of hymns that survive through the years and years, because they touch the hearts of people, and is a means of expression of feelings and faith.

Some hymns in the Coptic Church are believed to have taken their music from ancient Egyptian ones but changed the lyrics to Christian ones. One of these hymns is "Epouro ente Ti-hirini", meaning, "O King of Peace." I have heard the theory that the tune for this hymn was taken from a majestic ancient Egyptian song sung by the musicians when welcoming the Pharaoh as he entered into the royal courts and proceeded to his throne. Its funny because such rituals have clear parallels in the rituals of today's Coptic Church. While chanting this hymn the deacons of the church, who sing this hymn, enter through the nave of the church towards the altar, considered a symbol of the throne of God, just as the pharoah was believed to be a god. Also, during weddings, the bridegroom is taken down the nave of the church along with the deacons. The bridegroom, in the Orthodox Christian concept, is considered to be the King of the family household, as his wife is the Queen. This hymn is beautiful, joyful and very majestic. It is always sung on feast days in the church. If we are to give it an Arabic Music Maqam equivalent it would be Maqam Bayati, more similar to the tuning of the second note like in Makam Bayati in Turkish Music. Here is a link to the hymn: http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Songs/Coptic/David_Ensmble/Coptic_Hymns.html... the first audio file on the page is this hymn.

Another hymn believed to be taken from the melody of ancient Egyptian temple chant, was said to have originated from one sung at the mumification procedure of the pharaoh who was considered a god. The hymn is now reffered to as, "Ghoulghoutha" taken from the first word of the its text. Golgotha, the mountain where the Lord Jesus was believed to have died. This hymn is chanted during the twelfth and final hour of Good Friday. During the recitation of this hymn, the deacons are all gathered together in the sanctuary, surrounding the altar table. All dressed in their mournful deacon garments, chanting this deep sorrowful, but hopeful and humbling hymn, while the priest anoints the flowers covered across the altar, symbolizing the body of the Lord Jesus when He was buried being anointed with myrrh and aloes by St. Nicodemus and St. Joseph. Its tune is recitated in a meditative repetitive manner. This hymn uses the scale equivalent of Makam Gaharkah. I shed tears everytime I hear this hymn, it is so beautiful! Here is a link to the hymn: http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Songs/Coptic/David_Ensmble/Coptic_Hymns.html... the second audio file on the page is this hymn.

Another hymn believed to have taken its tune from an old Egyptian chant is Pek-ethronos, also chanted during the twelfth hour of Good Friday. The Holy Passion Week seems to contain the most hymns with roots that date back to ancient Egypt. This hymn is believed to have originated from a song chanted to the Pharaoh at the occasion of his death. The first half of this chant’s melody was mournful and deeply sorrowful, lamenting over the departure of the Pharaoh from the world, for he would not live amongst them anymore. The second half of the chant was joyful, rapturous, majestic, and hopeful. The second half of the chant commemorated the re-coronation and enthronement of the Pharaoh as a god in the afterlife, which the Egyptians were happy for. He was believed to have traveled in the sun boat, to the sun god Ra.

In the Coptic Church, this hymn is chanted with the words of the majestic psalm, "Your Throne, O God, is forever and ever!" we sing this at the hour in which we commemorate the hour which the Lord Jesus was believed to have died. So, we are acknowledging that He died, but on the third day He rose again, and that He is the immortal God. Do you see the similarites with the Pharaonic beliefs?
Here is a link to the hymn, unfortunately there are not that many recordings for this hymn on the net, so we are left with this recording from the Institute of Coptic Studies Choir in Cairo recorded in bad quality from the 50's.
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Other_Occasions/Holy_Week/Higher_Insti... - It is the sixth audio file from the top.

Many hymns also bear the names of ancient villages that perished long ago in Egypt. For example the names of the different melodies of the Psalms carry the names of these different villages. The festive melody for the Psalms chanted on the great Lordly Feasts bears the name the Singary tune. Its name originates from an ancient Egyptian village called Sinjar, near Rosetta in the Delta, since the time of Ramses II. It became famous in the Coptic Era, because of the numerous monasteries that were built around the city and the church there where two Popes were elected.

The Attribis Tune used for the hymns, psalms, and gospels during the Holy Pascha Week and Funerals also bears the name of an ancient Egyptian village that perished long ago. Its name was Edribah, north of Benha, which once stood near present day Sohag. This village had a temple with twelve altars that was converted into a church by St. Shenute the Archmandrite. St. Apanoub the child martyr was also tortured in this town.

Many other Pharaonic landmarks remained with the Egyptians after their conversion; the language is one. Even the little things like the pagan priests of ancient Egypt would never give their backs to the statues of the gods and goddesses while leaving the room of the Holy of the Holies in the temple, but would leave facing the statues. This tradition was kept in the church when the priest would leave the altar he would leave facing the altar so he never gives his back to God. The rituals were kept but the understanding of the faith was renewed to give new colour to these rites.

There are also ancient Egyptian artistic styles that reached their way to the Coptic Iconography, the same artistic styles that were found on the walls of the temples and the pyramids. In the Icon of Archangel Michael he holds in his hands the symbols that the goddesses Ma’at, the god of balance and order is depicted holding on the walls of ancient Egypt. These are symbols of judgment as the Lord Jesus says in the Bible that the angels are the ones who will judge the world. Another Icon is that of St. Parsouma the Naked. Notice the posture of his hands. Compare this with this statue of Pharaoh Akhenaton. Here is another icon of St. Mary and her son Jesus Christ. There are many ancient icons depicting Jesus Christ being breastfed by his mother, St. Mary. Compare this with this statue of the goddess Isis breastfeeding her son. It is also said that the Coptic icon, of St. George battling the Dragon, originated from the painting of Horus and Seth from Pharaonic Egypt. This Coptic Icon of St. George and the Dragon influenced many other paintings in the Western world.

It is also known that many Copts even after conversion kept many names from their ancient ancestors such as Mina, Ahmos, and Ramsis for men, Isis, Nofert, Nefertiti, and Nitocris for women.

Another example is the ancient Egyptian calendar which was preserved through the Coptic Calendar. This calendar is believed to have first appeared around the time of King Djoser in 2670 B.C. This was the first solar calendar to be constructed as a result of the brilliancy of the mathematicians and philosophers of the day. It was the root for the Gregorian calendar that we now use in the modern day. Just like the Coptic calendar, its direct descendant, it had twelve months each with thirty days, and five days at the end of the year which added up to 365 days. The beginning of the Egyptian corresponds with September 11th with the Gregorian calendar and on the jump year it is September 12th. The month consisted of three seasons, each season consisting of four months. First season was known as Akhet, which was the flooding of the Nile. The second was known as Peret, which was the Growth season, of the crops. And finally the third season was known as Shomu, which was the season of Harvesting. For each season the Coptic Church till this day prays concerning each of these seasons in the liturgy. For the first season the priest says, Bless the plants and herbs, the second he says, bless the air of the heavens, and for the third season he says, Bless the water. The First season was The name of each month was associated with a god or goddess. For example the first month of the year, Tout, originates itself from the name of the god Toth, the god of wisdom, or the famous month Kiahk, deriving itself from Ka Ha Ka, who was the sacred Apis bull. The names of these months did not change even after conversion. This calendar was revived during the reign of the Emperor Nero to be able to commemorate the many martyrs that were being tortured and killed during that time. The calendar continued on in the church with use of recording the biographies of the saints, all compiled together in book called the Synexarium. These are just a few examples of the landmarks of ancient Egypt that survived in our church until this very day.

More to come, on the history of Coptic Music in Egypt and the psychological effect of the Coptic musical heritage on the human...