Mike's Oud Forums

Are the specific elements of an excellent oud no yet been scientifically investigated ??

zalzal - 2-4-2006 at 06:20 PM

For Najib Shaheen based in New York i think, The specific elements of an excellent oud have not been comprehensively explored nor scientifically investigated. They are the trade secrets of oud makers, said Najib Shaheen. The oud maker's intention in crafting the oud is to achieve maximum resonance. The soundboard is a particularly delicate component of the instrument.

Najib has taken steps to increase the sound quality and projection of the oud through subtle modifications of the soundboard's habitual structure. Like most oud makers, Shaheen uses different kinds of wood for the beams and the soundboard. He combines the warmth of spruce and the crispness of cedar to produce a high quality tone, and maximizes the reverberations of the sound by minimizing the beams and soundboard. Since its emergence in early civilization, the oud's unique tone has established itself in traditional musical forms throughout the Arab world and North Africa. Developments in the structure and craftsmanship of the oud will remain the purview of oud makers for years to come.
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Dr. Oud - 2-6-2006 at 12:56 PM

I have proposed an analysis of the structure of the oud soundboard to some co-workers who are professional stress and vibration analyists and was told it would not be possible to generate valid data due to the material characteristics of wood. The software used to analyize parts or components in engineering design are based on materials with relatively consistant material characteristics. Metals and plastics appoximate this with minor variations due to matererial flow in fabrication.

Wood is an non-isotropic material, that is to say it has widely variable strength in diferent directions, so it cannot be ananylized with computer models to yield valid results. In addition it is cellular in structure which further complicates how the material reacts to stress and vibration. In a musical instrument the structure is operating nearly at the limits of strength in order to maximize the amplitude and duration of the vibrations producing the soundwaves. This boundary condition makes formula analysis inaccurate as formulas rely on constant values for materials, and the data integrity fails near the limits of the material strength. Computers have been used to approach the boundaries of strength analysis, but wood does not meet the criteria for data integrity at boundary conditions due to it's variable nature.

Precision measurements can be made of existing components of a soundboard for size, weight and acoustic properties, but the result is only valid for the sample measured. Another identical piece of wood will not react the same way due to the variable strength of the material. This was proven by the attempt to re-create the Stradivarius violin by precise measurement and maching duplication. It didn not work. The process falls back to the skill of the builder to make minor adjustments to each individual instrument to maximize the response of the soundboard. This tuning can be done at the component level before assembly and/or afterwards as the instrument is played and adusted. Still, every instrument will have it's own indiviual tonal characteristics, again due to the complex variables of the materials working together to produce soundwaves.

Mike - 2-6-2006 at 05:31 PM

Question: Does making the soundboard thinner produce more volume?

farukturunz - 2-7-2006 at 08:18 AM

Thank you zalzal, for starting a thread on this topic. We, all who are related with the oud instrument as either makers or players, must inevitably accept that Najib Shaheen’s statement is true. All hitherto developments of this instrument have been achieved by only some subtle changes which have been noticed by the makers as coincidental outcomes in general. Having realized some connection between the sound’s elementary characteristics and some of the constructional properties of the instrument, makers start to make some very subtle changes on the constructive parts thus an experimental construction process begins. Although the word “experimental” echoes as a scientific attitude, the maker’s experiments are not scientific yet. What other peculiarities should it include to be scientific?

Scientific experiments are usually done to verify a hypothesis, to gather data for establishing a theory, or to demonstrate a principle. Furthermore, the conditions must be constant for every experiment to reach a generalization. Only non material subjects can not be object to scientific experiments, like spiritual objects. If anything has a materialistic feature than we must consider it as something to be scientifically described. I share Richard’s drawbacks based on the characteristics of the wood but do not intend to give up my expectation for a scientific research on the oud’s physical features. Wood of course, is a very specific material. Any attempt to describe the physical features of a piece of wood has to stay as a unique designation. Thinking that no any other piece of wood may have the same physical characteristics shall we lose all hope for creating a scientific technique?

Many scientific researches have been done to understand the physical features of the violin and the guitar despite the same difficulties. Respected institutions have been established to investigate wooden musical instruments, within the universities and academies. Are their efforts in vain?
Please look at this site:

http://www.speech.kth.se/music/acviguit4/part1.pdf
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/acviguit4/part2.pdf
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/acviguit4/part3.pdf
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/acviguit4/part4.pdf
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/acviguit4/part5.pdf
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/acviguit4/part6.pdf

Mike, many of the makers assume making the soundboard thinner produce more volume.
I have tried to explain my thoughts dealing with this issue on my web site:
If the soundboard is thinner than the necessarily needed optimum gauge, we must assume these two basic results:

1. The soundboard may be quite vulnerable and collapsible. This sort of a soundboard may inflate outwards as well.
2. The sound of an oud whose soundboard thickness is less than 1,5mm tends to produce a sound having an unbalanced harmonic composition. This means either any of the strings will have more brilliant sound (mostly the nylons tend to produce some how metallic sound) while the others will acquire less; or while some strings may cause a feeling rather stiff, some others will seem quite loose.

Computational Mechanics of the Classical Guitar

farukturunz - 2-7-2006 at 08:31 AM

This book may come interesting to those who are thinking on the issue:

Computational Mechanics of the Classical Guitar
Bader, Rolf
2005, XVI, 182 p. 65 illus., Hardcover
ISBN: 3-540-25136-7

Elie Riachi - 2-7-2006 at 02:49 PM

Interesting discussion. Some guitar maker claims based on experience that making the top so thin minimizes the variability due to the wooden top. This is minimizes to the extent that an expert cannot tell the difference between a spruce and cedar top just by listening to each. This maker uses a sculptured lattice bracing system where the braces are made up of wood-graphite hybrid material (I previously posted a link to this makers web site.)

Thank you Mr. Faruk for the pdf's.

farukturunz - 2-8-2006 at 03:41 AM

You are very welcome Mr.Elie. Something apparent: The westerners seem humbler when applying the science and the scientific techniques to their instruments.

Django - 2-8-2006 at 05:19 AM

It might clarify some of the differences in certainty if we differentiate between "science" and "the application of scientific techniques". If we ask whether there is scientific evidence for the efficacy of certain oud-building procedures, then we are dealing with the rules of scientific evidence - primarily replicability. Because of the infinitely varying nature of different pieces of wood, or even different cuts from the same piece, the possibility of a replicable scientific result is, it seems nil (ie. the disappointing result of trying to measure every variable of a stradivarius violin and ending with a ho-hum instrument). We all learned that when it comes to scientific experimentation, "junk in...junk out". In these terms, a piece of wood, it seems, is essentially scientific "junk". HOWEVER, the applicability of scientific TECHNIQUES is another story. Measurement of acoustical nodes and anti-nodes in brace patterns, measurements with oscillosocopes and electronic tuners...all of these will undoubtedly result in instruments with a more clear and resonant tone, as well as less variability between instruments. The rules for scientific experimentation are very, very strict...but good engineering has far more resilient paramaters. (Before my decision to spend all my time as a composer, I studied for my Ph.D. in molecular genetics at UCLA and taught science at an advanced high school level.
My specialty was experimental design.)

Django - 2-8-2006 at 05:37 AM

I gorgot to mention that my interest in acoustical engineering began when I directed the education programs of the Seattle Symphony Orchestra. I frequently gave kids and adults tours of the new Benaroya Concert Hall in downtown Seattle, and had to explain some of its state-of-the-art acoustics. I used a hard-rubber percussion mallet to play a tune on the lovely mahogany panels that sheathed the walls of the concert hall. Each panel was specifically tuned to a different frequency so that the entire concert hall would vibrate sympathetically with the range of vibrations coming from the musical instruments on stage. Thus the entire concert hall was, essentially, a musical instrument itself!!!!!!

farukturunz - 2-8-2006 at 07:20 AM

Quote:
Thus the entire concert hall was, essentially, a musical instrument itself!!!!!!


If any of my statements was understood as an implication or a proposal to abandon from fastidiousness when talking about "science" I must apologize for this. I appreciate your knowledge and warning for differentiating "science" and "the application of scientific techniques".
In my opinion, scientific experiments must have been done; taking into account the variability of the physical features of mahogany and then the application of the scientifically proved results must have helped the designers to build a wonderful music hall.

Django - 2-8-2006 at 08:16 AM

Yes -good - I agree. It turns out that my favorite oud was made by someone with excellent engineering education - Saad Al-Tayyar.

SamirCanada - 2-8-2006 at 08:22 AM

Did you end up getting a oud from Saad? any pictures? sound clips :)

farukturunz - 2-8-2006 at 08:58 AM

Congratulations. Mabrouk. :)

Django - 2-8-2006 at 09:04 AM

Thank you! I purchased the oud from a private party. It is a few years old, and had not been played much. I've been playing it a lot every day, and it has "opened up" like a bottle of fine wine. The Tayyar brothers' new ouds are tremendously expensive, and I am very fortunate to have gotten an older one at a very reasonable price. All of you will hear it, since it is the instrument I will be using in the studio recording of the Cantigas de Santa Maria that will go along with the music book.

Dr. Oud - 2-8-2006 at 09:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Django.... the applicability of scientific TECHNIQUES is another story. Measurement of acoustical nodes and anti-nodes in brace patterns, measurements with oscillosocopes and electronic tuners...all of these will undoubtedly result in instruments with a more clear and resonant tone, as well as less variability between instruments. ....

A well known departure from the historically based structural design of soundboard bracing was developed by Dr. Michael Kasha (Professor of Biophysics) in conjunction with luthier Richard Schneider:
Kasha bracing design

zalzal - 2-8-2006 at 01:57 PM

Thanks a lot to all of you. Fm my absolute non engineer, non connoisseur neither on science not even on music (just 3 small years learner) point of view, still it seems that the question remains open. All the examples above are given for guitar or violin.

Has anywhere been conducted any "certified" laboratory analysis by reputated sientist musicologists on oud specifically, with kind of sonogrames, or "oscilloscopes" measures, frequencies etc ??

Any scientifical study on, say, a Nahat, reputated as oud stradivarius ??

What about the strings, i think much more "science" have been put on strings than on ouds.

In fact it seems to me that, nowadays, all the improvements on oud's construction are exclusively developed by luthiers.....oud's scientists.
Therefore shall we call the work of oud's luthiers as science ??
I would say yes.
The way you advise us here is already science, isn't it ?
It seems that modern science would not be able to bring to oud luthiers any technical advance , although this is still to be proved so may be the oud's luthiers are the ones who daily investigate scientifically while constructing ouds??

Time - 2-9-2006 at 07:40 PM

I agree with you Stephen but engineering is not the only way.
there is a physicist beside saad!

check this for other than engineering and physics. Stradivarius copy
http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/

regards