Direwolf - 2-26-2006 at 02:11 PM
Hello
I am new to the forum.
I have seen different Middle Eastern stringed instruments for sale on various websites and on E-bay and they look interesting and I love the sound.
My first instinct was to purchase a saz but the wood tuners appear to be crude and I'm worried about that.
The cumbus appears to much more durable than most instruments but I am confused with all the variations.
I have seen the banjo cumbus, the mandolin cumbus, the standard cumbus, the guitar cumbus, the cura cumbus, the saz cumbus and a few other names.
Can the saz or cumbus saz be tuned GDA like the lower 3 strings on an octave mandolin or one octave below a standard mandolin? How is the cura
tuned?
I play mandolin so I am looking for something that I can adapt to without too much trouble. I play various styles of music from American folk,
Celtic, blues, bluegrass and rock. I play a lot of songs by the Grateful Dead, The Byrds, Bob Dylan and Willie Nelson.
Any information about the saz and cumbus or advice about what to purchase to fit in with my style and background will be appreciated. I've read many
of the posts in this forum and I know that there is a wealth of knowledge to be shared.
Monty88 - 2-26-2006 at 02:36 PM
Hi,
I have a standard cumbus and a saz cumbus, both which I bought from the shop in Istanbul. The saz cumbus comes with strings best tuned to C, G, D,
like a mandola. I suppose heavier strings would work for G,D,A, which I have heard used on the cumbus saz. It sounds good. The mandolin cumbus is
fretted and tuned the same as a mandolin, so nothing really new there.
Remember, the saz cumbus has quarter note fretting, so you might have to get used to it.
Standard cumbus is fretless and tuned a fifth higher than the oud, so oud technique is used on this instrument.
kasos - 2-27-2006 at 01:16 PM
Hi.
While I wouldn't in any way want to dissuade you from buying a cumbus (it's a lovely instrument which I'm sure you'd be glad to own), it would be a
bit of a shame if the only reason you chose it over the saz was because of the wood pegs....
I own and play a dozen or more instruments that rely on wooden pegs (including both oud and saz). I also have a couple of guitars, a mandolin and a
Greek lyra (bowed) that have mechanical tuners.
Where available, mechanical tuners are no doubt the easy way to go. However, I note that many instruments, and not just middle eastern instruments
like the saz or oud, rely solely (and unproblematically) on wooden pegs, eg., western bowed strings (violin, viola, cello). And I've heard
knowledgeable people, when asked to justify the lack of mechanical tuners on such instruments, maintain that the sound is better with wooden pegs
(although I'll leave the verification of these claims to the acousticians.....).
In any event, let me state the obvious by indicating that not all wooden pegs are created equal - by and large, the better class of instruments (this
is rather arbitrary, but let's say for argument's sake, those from middling to good, say $500 and over in the case of an oud) will have hardwood pegs
that are well fitted to the peg-holes, and will rarely present any serious tuning issue.
However, on less expensive instruments, there is always the risk that the pegs will be of softer wood, and/or not be a perfect match with the holes,
and therefore slip too readily (or, less commonly, grip too hard).
However, it's rare that a player is left powerless in such situations. In most cases, application of some substance will either serve to
appropriately lubricate, or, as the case might be, add friction to the pegs, so that they work properly. Music shops serving bowed strings players
(look for one in any community where there's a Symphony orchestra or a Suzuki program) will usually carry commercial versions of such products.
There are also a variety of homebrew remedies that are quite effective. My two favorites for reducing peg slippage are (1) sidewalk chalk (not the
blackboard type, which has a bit of wax in it and runs counter to your purpose) and/or (2) violin rosin (the white powder you collect on your bow and
instrument top, if you're a fiddle player - or, if not, just pick some rosin from a music shop or classical dance studio [ballet students order it by
the boxload, crush it and use it on their shoes]).
Between the latter two home remedies (and yes, you can combine them) there hasn't been a wooden peg yet I haven't been able to deal with. The
sidewalk chalk is best when the problem is dryness, and the rosin best when the problem is cold (I live in a very northerly climate).
Finally, a bit of a comparison between saz and cumbus. Though you can play some of the same repertoire on both instruments, the saz has a quieter,
though quite sweet, tone, while the cumbus (at least in the recordings I've heard, since I don't own one yet) tends to have more edge to the sound.
And pretty much everyone agrees the cumbus is louder (it's got a lot in common in its construction with the US banjo, so this shouldn't be too hard to
picture).
As for other merits of the saz, let me say that I like my own saz best played alone, late at night. I try to picture some wizened old Greek
rembetica player in a shanty on the Piraus, and let myself dream, to the strains of the saz's wistful, bittersweet tone..... OK, it's a little over
the top, but I'm sure you get the picture....
Good luck with your choice.
Take care, Mark
Direwolf - 2-27-2006 at 03:02 PM
Thanks for the responses.
I'm confused about the quarter note fretting. I have read articles on the circle of fifths, Pythagorean tuning, quarter note tuning, etc., and most
of it is over my head. How does this translate into fingering changes on the fretboard between a saz tuned CGA compared to a mandola tuned in CGA?
I do like the saz, Kasos, so I'll have to reconsider it after reading your post. Is the cura tuned like the baglama? Maybe I should eventually get a
baglama to play at home and a cura or mandolin cumbus to take out and jam with friends since it's smaller, louder and probably more durable.
kasos - 2-27-2006 at 03:32 PM
Hi Direwolf
I have indeed been tuning my cura to an open chord, like a (Greek) baglama - I understand that quite a number of Greek, or Greek inspired players do
likewise (predictably enough, I suppose). However, as I understand it, the tuning in stacked fifths is more common with Turkish players.
I would tend to concur with your thinking that one of the cumbus versions will probably be a very practical ensemble instrument. I would think it
would also be versatile enough to be used on occasion with more western instruments, because volume levels would match better. That being said,
I've had a few relatively quiet saz jams with guitar playing friends that worked out OK.....
All the best, Mark
kasos - 2-27-2006 at 03:45 PM
Oh, by the way, about the quarter tones - don't sweat that too much. Just expect a bunch of extra nylon frets you'll find already tied on the
instrument. Basically, if you want to play according to a Western scale (for example, if you're doing Greek stuff), just skip the frets that don't
fit - although it's unfamiliar at first, you'll get used to it pretty quickly.
When you're ready, you can embark on the adventure of Eastern scales. There's a whole education involved in getting to know when and how to use the
quarter tones - I'm very new at that part, and I'd advise you to check out what other persons on the site have written about maqams, and, especially,
listen to all the recordings you can put your hands on... There's a very useful site at http://www.maqamworld.com/ that is probably the most comprehensive single internet resource on this topic, particularly if you're handy with
musical notation and can follow the descriptions of the musical theory....
Mark
Direwolf - 2-27-2006 at 05:11 PM
Thanks Mark