Mike's Oud Forums

nutty inquiries ...

amtaha - 3-10-2006 at 12:03 PM

I was changing the strings on my oud (first time), and the nut fell off. Is it supposed to be lose, or should it be glued?

Also, I've noticed that the nut was a bit rough on the strings. I'm thinking about getting a bone one as I understand that they are better. I'll pass by the local music shops to see if they carry it. The question is, how to go about shaping it, especially for the string passages (grooves)?

Also, the nut I have had passages for five courses. I want to set the new one for six courses. What are the general considerations for doing this?

Appreciated.

Elie Riachi - 3-11-2006 at 08:58 AM

Hello,

You simply glue the nut in place. Make sure to scrape off the old glue on the neck and nut and remove any loose debris so that both surfaces are clean before gluing. You could use super Gel (NOT super glue) or just some yellow carpenter's glue. As for "grooving" check this: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=3320#pid219...

For installing a new nut, check here: http://www.msocp.com/Jameel_OudConstruction11.htm

You may have to modify the bridge, look here: http://www.msocp.com/Jameel_OudConstruction8.htm

And here: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2535&pa...

Also if you will be modifying ouds I would strongly recommend reserving you a copy of the Doc's Oud construction book, well worth it: http://www.droud.com/book.htm

SamirCanada - 3-11-2006 at 12:39 PM

Why glue the nut?
I dont have a single oud with a glued nut. The strings hold it in place no problem with the ammount of pressure on it its no suposed to go anywhere. If you dont notice that there was any residue glue there its cause it wasnt intended to be glued by the maker. Also note that its better if it wasnt glued since you might want to change it to bone. You can usualy get bone nut blanks from guitar shops. By the way the difference in the amount of time it takes you to tune your oud is well worth taking the time to shape a bone nut. It glides so much better and makes your oud playing more enjoyable since your not spending 30 mins trying to tune the strings.

amtaha - 3-11-2006 at 09:16 PM

Thanks Elie for this extensive reply. I'm still undecided on glueing the nut, though. I'll think it through.

Thanks Samir, too. This is part of the reason why I'm interested in changing the nut. It has been causing frustration in the tuning.

I'm all excited about this. I know it's a relatively very small errand, but you've got start some where. :)

... On a completely side matter; is it me, or do ouds have a "growing over you" effect? The low quality strings that mine had went bad all at the same time, and the replacements weren't that good either. So now a thing of sadness is in me while waiting for the new sets of strings. I can't play. :(

amtaha - 3-11-2006 at 09:17 PM

p.s. I've just noticed that I've been promoted to "Oud Lover".

Must be a sign ...

amtaha - 3-17-2006 at 07:30 PM

Is there a standard for the distance between the strings and in between the courses?

I've managed to obtain a cow bone nut. It's now been cut in size and everything. The only thing that is messing are the
grooves for strings.

Needless to say, I'm a bit worried about messing up this nut job. Let's hope it goes well.

Elie Riachi - 3-18-2006 at 06:54 AM

Read Doc's reply here: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=1818#pid114...

amtaha - 3-20-2006 at 10:48 PM

Thanks again Elie. I think I managed to make a pretty decent nut.

(Also, I feel that I need to apologize. Apparently, I'm not patient enough when doing a search.)

SamirCanada - 3-21-2006 at 05:11 AM

I used to cut the groves in the nuts I made with a hacksaw! I got some Files this weekend and it cut down the time it takes by at least one hour!!! And the groves are much cleaner that way. The tricky part with making a nut is to get the action right. Its easy to take off too much material from the back or to make the grooves too deep.

amtaha - 3-21-2006 at 02:13 PM

I've actually managed to get my self a file set from Home Depot. (They had a good set of files that have handles at C$4.00. A similar set was at Canadian Tire for C$17.00.) I used them to shape the nut and make the grooves. I was worried about messing up the whole job when making the grooves, but the method outlined by Dr. Oud (and thankfully linked to by Elie) made it quite the straightforward task. I just had to find a decent ruler and a pencil, and file away.

I'd imagine I should get a coarse file in the future to make the general process of shaping a bit faster.

I've put on a new a set of strings (Aquila, per your advice - a much, much helpful advice. The oud sounds like quite another thing.) I think the action is ok.

I'm almost back on track now in my learning process. The only problem is that I'm missing a peg for sixth string. I'll be passing by a music shop tonight to get a couple, and will probably work on them over the weekend.

Thanks a many! :-)

amtaha - 8-3-2006 at 10:31 AM

After finishing the first, I decided to do another one for five strings. However, I'm starting to get a buz in two strings near the net. It seems that I may have lowered the action beyond useful.

Can someone tell me if there's a measurement I should go by in setting the action near the nut?

Hamid

SamirCanada - 8-3-2006 at 11:17 AM

The distance of the strings should be 1mm above the nut.
If you want you can add material behind the nut that was shaven too much as a temporary measure to restablish the 1mm height nessesary

amtaha - 8-5-2006 at 09:00 AM

Thanks Samir.

I guess that should do for a while, until I have time for shaping a new one.

fernandraynaud - 8-4-2009 at 12:06 AM

For what it's worth, if gluing the nut is necessary after all, it's worth adding to this thread that carpenter's yellow glues are a disaster that doesn't belong on musical instruments: it creeps, it's hard to undo, and it cannot be glued back to itself. If you don't want to deal with old fashioned "glue-pot" hide glue, you can use liquid hide glue. Not all stores carry it, and it spoils in the bottle after about a year if you don't use it, but it makes a beautiful amber-colored bond that can be undone with heat, and reglued. I hope the Midddle Eastern Oud makers don't "modernize" and start using the horrible carpenters' glue.

freya - 8-4-2009 at 03:08 AM

Hi,

I've found that Wypo drill cleaners make great nut files for bone (I find that wood nuts always bind on the wound strings even with graphite lube). They are inexpensive (~$4) and sometimes not all the files are equally sharp but you can get a couple and use the sharpest ones. Enough files are present to make a nice half-round slot for all the string sizes and you can polish up the groove with some 800-1000 grit folded in half if desired. I start the slot by scoring the bone with a sharp xacto and the open up the slot a little bit with one of the small files, then move on to using files just a bit larger than the string diameter to avoid any binding. It's also good to break the edge of the slot just a little on the neck side. The files can be found multiple places on line. I recomment the "king" size. See http://www.wypo.com/prod01.htm

Cheers

fernandraynaud - 8-4-2009 at 12:06 PM

Ooh, what a great "tip" :)) I found them at my local welding supply store, $4.00 retail.

Kelly - 8-9-2009 at 08:00 AM



You might also try finishing off each groove with a light dusting of flour and a length of wound string . eg .025" to get the desired shape and angle towards the peg box. A lute makers tip. It seems to work, avoids buzzing and gets the string to bed in more. You still need to keep an eye out that you don't cut down too much which might effect the action and also seems to dull the open string sound a little also.

Hatem_Afandi - 8-10-2009 at 06:55 AM

Dear All,

Not sure whether I shared this information here:
- None of the nuts in my 8 ouds is glued.
- Despite what I read in several websites, the most suitable material for nuts is bone (not ebony).
- I replaced all the nuts in ALL my ouds with much better quality ones available from guitar shops in the US. A good place to get the nuts is:
http://www.stewmac.com/
Nuts from the Middle East have a serious quality issue. Once replaced, the "true character" of the instrument comes out.

Best Regards,

Hatem


Dr. Oud - 8-10-2009 at 08:54 AM

"Is it supposed to be lose, or should it be glued?"
I put just a drop of any glue on the end of the neck to hold the nut in place while changing strings. The nut can be removed by tapping it lightly with a putty knife.
"Is there a standard for the distance between the strings and in between the courses?"
Each pair is separated by about 2mm between the string edges, not center to center. The spaces between courses depends on the width of the nut, which varies, so it must be calculated.
"Its easy to take off too much material from the back or to make the grooves too deep. "
I don't groove through the front edge of the nut, but stop the grooves short so the front edge is straight and makes all the strings at the same height. Each groove needs to be slightly larger than each string diameter to allow smooth tuning. Round off the front an rear edge (entry and exit edge) of the groove to prevent catching the windings. The groovesdon't need to be very deep, in fact deeper grooves make for more interference when tuning.

jkndrkn - 9-18-2009 at 01:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Kelly  
You might also try finishing off each groove with a light dusting of flour and a length of wound string . eg .025" to get the desired shape and angle towards the peg box. A lute makers tip. It seems to work, avoids buzzing and gets the string to bed in more. You still need to keep an eye out that you don't cut down too much which might effect the action and also seems to dull the open string sound a little also.


Hi, I am currently experiencing an issue where it seems that the strings are catching on the nut during tuning preventing fine-tuning completely. Would flouring the grooves and polishing them down with a wound string "smooth" the grooves and prevent them from catching the strings quite so much?

SamirCanada - 9-18-2009 at 04:46 PM

you can sometimes use a little dab of toothpaste and put it on the nut slot. Then take a wound string and rub it fast enough in the slot. It should do it.
then clean it of course.

its like your flossing our oud's teeth!! but jokes asside the tooth paste has a little bit of abrasives that will polish the slots.

Be careful though. dont do it too hard or too long either!