Mike's Oud Forums

My next next oud...

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Jameel - 6-25-2006 at 03:53 PM

After some encouragement from Mike and some other friends, I've decided to share my next oud project. This was originally going to be another fancy oud, but I decided, after collaborating with a friend (Sidi) to make this one a bit experimental. My two previous bowls have simply been circular in cross-section. I'd always wanted to make a bowl with deeper parts, or flatter parts, in other words, assymetrical. I figured the best way to try a bowl this way was to just dive in and make one. I've also corresponded with a lute-maker about this topic recently and will be sharing some of my findings. I've learned some new techniques, and I hope some of you find them interesting. I'm sure some of you pros out there will think my techniques are fairly obvious, but they're new to me!

First I'll post a picture of a Nahat oud that has some of the bowl shape characteristics I'm talking about. The neck end of the bowl here is quite a bit deeper than it is at the face, so obviouly this is not a circular oud. I don't have the measurements for this particular oud, so it could be that its not actually deeper here, but simply that the wide part of the back is flattened out, giving the appearance of a deeper section towards the neck. But given other Nahat measurements I do have (that the back is at least as deep as half the face width, and most often more--usually about 20cm) I'm inclined the think the former is true. Note also that the tail end "curves back" towards the face. For some, this is a comfort feature, I've always liked it, so I was intrigued to try to duplicate it.

Jameel - 6-26-2006 at 09:27 AM

To accomplish the "curved back" tail end, I tiltled the tail block on the mould, to an angle that looked good to my eye. I'm not sure what it is, maybe 10 degrees? I drew the white line to illustrate the curve.

The problem this poses is that it takes a normally circular bowl and introduces a curve that is "out-of-plane" with the circle. In order for the tail end of the rib to follow the shape of the tilted tail block, it must depart from its typical flat shape (by flat, I'm referring to the width of the rib, not the curve along the length of the rib that gives the bowl its shape) in other words, it must be twisted. This is not so evident on the first middle ribs, but it comes into play as the bowl nears the face.

Jameel - 6-26-2006 at 09:32 AM

The white arrow and curve show how I've made the neck block thicker (the "steeper angle" from the pic of the Nahat) towards the bowl (the neck end of the block remains at the typical 20mm or so, to maintain proper neck dimensions) and thus made this part of the bowl about 1cm deeper than the mould. Ideally, the mould would reflect the desired bowl shape, but I didn't want to spend the time making a new mould for this "experimental" trial. It's making the build a bit more tricky....

SamirCanada - 6-26-2006 at 10:17 AM

GREAT stuff Jameel
I cant wait to follow this.
Its going to be an interesting summer.

oudipoet - 6-26-2006 at 05:45 PM

good job jameel hope hear and see more of this oud take care

Just Curious

LeeVaris - 6-26-2006 at 05:56 PM

I wondering what effect you expect this bowl shape to have on the sound? Or is this a comfort in holding thing? Or purely aesthetic? The shape may have an impact on how it sits on the leg and it may change the interior volume a bit. What are your thoughts on this?

I love your adventurous spirit! Keep it up!

:buttrock:

Jameel - 6-26-2006 at 06:35 PM

Thanks everybody.

Lee, I think it's everything you mentioned. I'm not a scientist, but our friend Sidi has done some serious analysis of oud shapes, and he tells me that the shape of the bowl has some effect on sound reflection. We can talk about this later when I find out more, but he mentioned to me that the older ouds that had a deeper section more towards the middle definitely effects the reflection of the sound. Check out some of the old Nahats and Geroges. Especially Farid's inlaid Georges oud, it is VERY deep towards the neck. As for comfort, that's more of a personal issue, since people hold the oud differently. I tend to wrap my arm around the bottom end of the oud, so this would be more comfortable to me, but some people tend to position their arm more over the top corner, (think John B.) perhaps negating this feature. Does your Foad have a bottom end like this? I once played a Foad that did, and it was very comfortable. About the interior volume. Hard to say. Again, I'm no scientist. For me the only way to discover these things, short of having knowlegdable people to collaborate with, is to simply try them.

Rib Bender

Jameel - 6-26-2006 at 07:35 PM

Earlier this winter I made this rib bender that utilizes a heat blanket. I modelled it after the Fox side bender used for guitars. There have been some posts recently of other members similar benders, which basically work the same, so I won't bore you with the details of mine. I'll just keep it short and say this is, hands down, the most awesome oud-making tool I have. It used to take me literally hours to bend enough ribs for one oud. I'd spend about 30 minutes bending a rib to match the profile, times 20 ribs, well....I don't have to do the math. That's a LONG time. With my new bender I spent less than 30 minutes total bending all the ribs for one oud, and that includes extras.

TruePharaoh21 - 6-26-2006 at 08:26 PM

Jameel,

I feel a masterpiece in the making. Please post updates as often as possible. I can't wait until this one is finished!

TP21

Jonathan - 6-27-2006 at 05:28 AM

Thank goodness you are posting on this. I keep looking back at your old thread, and the website, to learn whatever I can.
What wood are you using this time around?
Just a thought, here. It would be nice if somebody made an instructional video for oud making. Doc's book is great, but for novices like myself, we could learn a great deal by watching you guys doing the work.
In the old days, apprentices could work in the master's shop. That's just not practical right now (although if I can ever swing it, I would love to do that). So we need something from somebody that knows what they are doing. You, or Doc, or Dincer, or Haluk, or Nazih, or Maurice, or anybody that knows their way.
A video would be the next best thing.
I can't tell you how much I am looking forward to your post.

Hosam - 6-27-2006 at 07:16 AM

Jameel, I can not wait to follow and learn as usual from this project. Can you please post more detailed shots for you bender? What materials did you use? how do you hold the metal sheet in place? is there any tension (sheer or pulling) that you are exerting on the rib while bending?

Jameel - 6-27-2006 at 10:52 AM

A masterpiece? You're too gracious, TP. Jonathan, I think the video is a good idea, but how many would you sell? How many pro-oud makers are there in this country? Maybe half a dozen? And how many hobby oud makers? About the same I would guess. Don't hold your breath. This is one reason I'd like to have an oud symposium in this country. You could have all kinds of things like luthiery clinics, master classes, recitals. But that's a subject for another thread. The wood is cherry.

Hosam, Richard H. is actually going to make some plans from this bender. I gave him tons of info about it, maybe drop him a line.

I'll post some more progress later today or tomorrow.

Jameel - 6-27-2006 at 04:05 PM

Here you can see that this rib is not tight to mould. This is not much of an issue if it is corrected at the next rib. Either the rib is twisted, or is perhaps too wide at this point. If the next rib in line is simply placed against this one, the bowl will eventually be much wider at the face. My solution, and this applies to both circular bowls and non-circular bowls, is to adjust the angle of the rib at only the locations where it needs it. At this spot, the angle needs to be increased to bring the rib back towards the mould, but this is not necesarily true for the entire length of the rib. So to change the angle in this one spot, the rib must be twisted.

Jameel - 6-27-2006 at 04:08 PM

I first take a bent rib, still square and too wide, and cut one side only to my basic curve. I then hold this up to the previous rib (after planing the edge fairly flat, but not being finicky at this point) and see how it is falling against the mould bulkheads. I can see right away where it is setting nicely against the mould and where it is moving away from the mould.

oudplayer - 6-27-2006 at 04:30 PM

hey jameel
how are you ?? i cant wait till i see the outcome of this oud at the end.
i have a turist turkish oud and it sounds toristy so i wanna see what i can do with it so how would i make it more bassy or like change the sound a lil it my sounds funny just wanna know if one could .
thx sammy

Jameel - 6-27-2006 at 04:35 PM

It's worth mentioning here some techniques employed by lute makers. In the following photo the mould bulkheads are flattened at each rib location. This is more important with bowls of few ribs, such as with this lute of 11 ribs. Since ouds are commonly built with 13+ ribs, and 19+ for Turkish ouds, this feature is not as important. These flats give a much more accurate location of where the edge of the rib needs to stop. Especially for lutes, where the back is quite flattened at the apex, these flats give an accurate shape of the rib, which as they move away from the central rib, are not symmetrical (since the bowl itself is changing shape) As the rib is bent and twisted in order to accurately land on the flats, the shape of the edge joint is actually a subtle s-shape, and fitting with inverted plane and sanding board becomes a bit trickier, although quite possible, since the edge of the rib is no longer in a flat plane (the s-shape).

I think for arabic ouds with bowls of 13 and 15 ribs (most Nahats), the mould with flats would be an excellent choice, especially for bowls with non-semicircular shapes.

See this page for some interesting pics of lute construction and especially moulds with flats.
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/rengallery/index.html

On the other hand, I'm sure a real pro would be able to shape a bowl or alter the shape without the help of the mould-with-flats, altering the shape by eye. But for me, with only 2 bowls under my belt, I need all the help I can get!

Jameel - 6-27-2006 at 04:52 PM

Notice the ouds in progress from the same site (David Van Edwards)

http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/class.htm

Anyone know this Saber fellow?

Jameel - 6-27-2006 at 04:59 PM

In order to impart the twist, I use one of three methods.

The first method is to heat the bent rib on the iron and twist it by hand as is heats. See pic.

The second method is to use a partially bent rib (one that is not yet bent exactly to the shape, but mostly bent) and impart the twist by bending the rib over the iron diagonally.

See the 8th pic down on this page: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/summer2003/html/index.html

Jameel - 6-27-2006 at 05:02 PM

The third method is to heat the rib on the iron and quickly move it to the mould, holding the area that needs the twist, and pulling on the free end, holding it for a few seconds to set the twist. I've found this method to be very accurate and the best of the three. Notice my left hand twisting the rib away from the mould while my right hand holds fast.

Jameel - 6-27-2006 at 05:05 PM

Another example of the third method.

Here I'm bending a twist into the tail end of the rib (so it conforms to the tilted tail block--the "curved back" feature) by holding the hot rib against the tail block and twisting the front end away from the mould. This twists the tail end around to fit nicely on the tail block.

Peyman - 6-27-2006 at 06:53 PM

As everyone already said, I am very intrigued to follow this project as I did the other one. :xtreme:
Have you looked at Robert Lundberg's historical construcion book? The rib fitting section is interesting. He doesn't cut the ribs to the profile first but "shapes" them over the mold. It's rather strange but I think it's only possible because those ribs are very thin.

Elie Riachi - 6-28-2006 at 10:04 AM

Wow Jameel, the third oud from scratch. Regarding being a scientist, there are very few things in science that were discovered based on theory alone such as the LASER. Many were discovered and refined by observation and experiment.

Your comment regarding the positive effects on sound reflection due to deeper bowel in the middle has its merits. To draw the analogy here, you know that there are concave spherical mirrors and concave parabolic mirrors. The better telescopes use the parabolic type because this type focuses all the parallel light rays at one point while the spherical type doesn't really focus all the parallel light rays at one point (only the rays close to the principal axis get focused at approximately the focal point.) With that in mind, I see the common familiar circular bowel design might have an analogous effect in reflecting sound as the spherical mirror, while your current approach might have an improved effect analogous to the parabolic mirror since the cross section of this bowel may look more like a parabola compared to the familiar bowel circular cross section.

I like the bender you built. About a couple of years ago I sent an email to Dr. Oud soliciting his input on a similar bender I was contemplating, except the source of heat for mine, I think was steam passing through holes in the metal sheet. Doc's response was the "spring back" problem. I am curious as to whether or not the wood is springing back after you bend it on this bender?

Keep up the good work buddy, you seem to always find a new "twist" on oud making.

Dr. Oud - 6-28-2006 at 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Elie Riachi
...To draw the analogy here, you know that there are concave spherical mirrors and concave parabolic mirrors. The better telescopes use the parabolic type because this type focuses all the parallel light rays at one point while the spherical type doesn't really focus all the parallel light rays at one point (only the rays close to the principal axis get focused at approximately the focal point.) With that in mind, I see the common familiar circular bowel design might have an analogous effect in reflecting sound as the spherical mirror, while your current approach might have an improved effect analogous to the parabolic mirror since the cross section of this bowel may look more like a parabola compared to the familiar bowel circular cross section...

So professor Elie, help me understand the analogy beween light waves and sound waves. I thought sound waves are like expanding bubbles that bounce back in complex overlapping patterns as the wave "edge" encounters reflective surfaces (like the inside of the bowel). I thought light waves are rather linear, like a bullet or projected beam (as they scatter from the source, depending on if they are focused or not) so the reflection is much more angular, like a ricochet. Hmmmmm?

I recently got a book about wood bending and the guy nary mentioned heat blankets. All the bending was with pre-soak in hot water or steam except for violin ribs, which btw are bent across the grain, not along it like our oud ribs. Springback is a condition that is present anytime any material is bent but it can be minimised by keeping the material clamped in the shape for enough time for it to normalize.

Elie Riachi - 6-28-2006 at 11:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Oud

So professor Elie, help me understand the analogy beween light waves and sound waves.


Hello Doc,

You may want to look up "whispering booths" these are parabolic sound reflectors used in math to demo the geometric properties of a parabola. Also think of satellite dishes which use the properties of a parabolic reflector to reflect electromagnetic waves on the LNB. As you know light is an electromagnetic wave just like TV and radio waves.

mavrothis - 6-28-2006 at 01:02 PM

Hey,

Great work and descriptions/resources as always. I'm real excited about this oud Jameel. I think it's very cool you are copying an aspect of these older ouds that most of us have noticed, but never really thought about (the how and the why).

With this new set up you could probably create a whole bunch of very nice bowls in a short time, and then fit the rest of the pieces later...though this might not be as much fun as making one whole instrument at a time.


Looking forward to more pics (and audio eventually!).

mav

Dr. Oud - 6-28-2006 at 02:23 PM

OK, I understand how parabolas focus electromagnetic waves, but my understanding of sound waves is that they act on the air (or water) molecules to create vibrations that propogate rather than eletromagnetic waves that act more like projected or uni-directional waveforms. My point is that even if you stand behind a speaker, you will hear the sound (although muted) but if you stand behind a flashlight, you're still in the dark. no?

Elie Riachi - 6-28-2006 at 04:16 PM

Hi Doc,

My reply is a new topic in the Questions forum.

Jameel - 7-3-2006 at 07:12 PM

One other technique I've learned I wanted to share.

Instead of simply relying on a curved line drawn on the rib itself, or pre-cutting the rib to shape, in order to correctly place the rib so it follows the curve of the bowl, its necessary to place the square and bent rib next to the previous one. I then rotate the rib down at the widest point of the bowl, causing the two ends to raise up, until the angle is correct at the widest part of the bowl and the rib is sitting nicely on the mould. The parts that are raised up represent the part of the rib that needs to be removed. I usually sketch this by eye on the rib, and saw it off, staying away from the line, then true it up on the inverted plane. When I get close to a straight line from tip to tip I stop planing and begin tweaking the bend and twist of the rib so it sits nice on the mould all along. This will inevitably cause some more planing to tweak the edge, but that it why the rib was kept square, to allow some extra stock. When the rib fits well, I mark the final dimensions of the rib from the marks on the mould and saw and plane to these marks.

Jameel - 7-3-2006 at 07:14 PM

See how the shape of this bowl departs from the mould? This is intentional. :D

Jameel - 7-3-2006 at 07:19 PM

The bowl is finished. I would have to say that this was by far the most difficult of the three bowls I've made. Building open-mould (ala Dr. Oud) was the easiest. But I would have to say that for complex shapes, I'm going to have to rely on a mould. And the next mould will definitely have flats, in order to more accurately guide the process.

Jameel - 7-3-2006 at 07:21 PM

Another view. The curved-around (100 degree) tail end is a bit difficult to capture, especially with my cheap digital camera, which has a wide-angle lens that distorts everything. Isn't that cherry wood purdy!?

Jameel - 7-3-2006 at 07:25 PM

Here you can see more clearly the departure in shape from the mould. The oud on top was made with the same mould. The area behind the neck is deeper (only about 1cm though) and the tail end also has a deeper area (this is more evident when viewed from the front), plus the curved-back tail end is also somewhat visible. In all, this makes the oud look a bit less deep than the top one, when it fact it contains a greater amount of space.

SamirCanada - 7-3-2006 at 07:30 PM

Looks nice Jameel...
Its a Classic in the works if you ask me. Thanks for posting your developements
following any of your projects is always wonderfull. So I just want to encourage and congradulate you for your dedication and professionalism.
Keep it up

Hosam - 7-3-2006 at 07:42 PM

Very nice Jameel, I agree that cherry looks great. I can not wait to see the final out come of this project. I have a feeling that it will not be too far away.

Jonathan - 7-4-2006 at 06:48 AM

Incredible, Jameel. I always thought an oud should have two different types of wood, and that the wood should be separated by purfling. That was the "look" that I really liked.
But, your ouds really make me rethink that. You use incredible wood, and you really let the wood speak for itself. It is a very elegant, very refined look, and I cannot imagine anything better. And the craftsmanship is always stunning.
I don't know if any of that makes sense, but I hope you get the idea.

abusin - 7-5-2006 at 02:25 AM

Hi Jameel,

again as expected another master piece, well done

all the best,

Awad:applause::applause::applause:

Jonathan - 7-5-2006 at 03:34 AM

Jameel--Just a quick question on the technique for sizing the ribs that you mentioned earlier.
Are you just cutting one side of the rib, then? It seems like, with this technique, the opposite side remains untouched.? I am guessing that you just sand that side to give it the right angle at the edge, or am I wrong?
Thanks

mavrothis - 7-5-2006 at 07:47 AM

Beautiful! :applause:

Jameel - 7-5-2006 at 09:16 AM

Thanks fellas.

I like the look of just one species for the bowl. It's also easier! (my secret reason :D)

Jonathan, I am cutting just one side. The other side remains untouched until I get close to having the opposite side fit. When I am very close (just a bit of fine sanding or filing) I go ahead and cut the open side to shape.

Yes, I just plane and sand the open side to match the marks on the mould. If there are twists in the rib, then it won't necessarily sit flat on the sanding board, but it still works. Just make sure the edge is as smooth a line as you can, it will make fitting the next rib easier. You can also just make it flat, and fit the next rib to it. 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of other.

Jonathan - 7-5-2006 at 01:15 PM

I can't wait to try it. Thanks!

Jonathan - 7-5-2006 at 06:12 PM

Jameel, I hate to keep bugging you with questions, but I learn so much from you.
What do you have attached on the bottom of your form? It looks like you have it attached from the form, to a block of wood, and then mounted in your vice. Is there a brand name? It looks like it would make things a lot easier.
Again, thanks. I really appreciate it.

Jameel - 7-5-2006 at 06:28 PM

No problem, Jonathan. It's a RAM mount. I got that when I was working on the last oud.

Check page 2 of "My Next Oud Project" thread

I bought it here:

http://www.gpscity.com/item-ram-mount-double-round-plate-assembly/r...

Andy - 7-7-2006 at 09:40 AM

You guys have got this oud making down to a science!!!!!!! Pefected tried and pefected again. Reading and watching the process makes me want to get started on building my next one which is long over due. Jameel and Jonathan and Hosam what inspiration, this is great. I am thrilled watch you build and perform oud magic in front of our eyes. BRAVO!

Jonathan - 7-10-2006 at 07:08 PM

Jameel, that approach to fitting the ribs really openned my eyes. It helps a lot. Thanks!

Jameel - 7-11-2006 at 05:52 PM

I hope it helps you Jonathan. That's why I posted it. It's just something I gleaned from others and it worked for me.....

Andy. Far from perfection. I'm just getting started. Your website is perhaps one of the first I saw when I started building ouds, so I'm definitely your junior when it comes to oud making.

Tail inlay, neck joint

Jameel - 7-11-2006 at 05:58 PM

Here are some more pics of the progress.

I'm trying another neck method this time around. This is a dovetail and stringer ala Doc O. I thought I would combine the mechanical strength of a dovetail with Doc's stringer. I'm also going to veneer this neck. It's made from vertical grain linden (lime, basswood). The extra thickness has not yet been removed. I'll do that after I get the face braced and ready to glue, that way my angles won't change in the meantime. Oh yeah, the inlay and pegbox cap are ivory linen Micarta. Just trying this material on this "experimental" oud. So far I like it. It looks very much like real ivory (well, not REAL close up). I'll just tell you all that I am trying my best to do something really special with this particular instrument. I can't reveal anything yet, but to my knowledge, it will be a first.

Jameel - 7-11-2006 at 05:59 PM

The outline of the face traced from the bowl itself. You can see how much I changed the shape from the previous oud.

Jameel - 7-11-2006 at 06:00 PM

The bowl edge trimmed flat. This is the final shape and size.

Jameel - 7-11-2006 at 06:01 PM

Tail end curve. Not so curvy, but it was tricky to make

Jameel - 7-11-2006 at 06:06 PM

Paper strips installed. This time I put some across the ribs as well.

Jameel - 7-11-2006 at 06:07 PM

Jameel - 7-11-2006 at 06:08 PM

Neck joint

Hosam - 7-11-2006 at 07:48 PM

This is very beautiful Jameel, simple, clean as usual, graceful and reveals a true master at work. I can not wait to see the rest.
Did you consider using carbon fiber for the stringer? Both LMI and Stewart-MacDonald are offering different shapes and sizes. Pound for pound this stuff is stiffer than steel.
Are the ribs quarter sawn? What do you think of using flat or rift saw?

Elie Riachi - 7-11-2006 at 08:22 PM

Nicely executed craftsmanship. I like the dove tail joint. How do you set the angle of the neck with a dove tail joint?

Gabriel - 7-11-2006 at 08:58 PM

:applause::applause:
it seems all your ouds have a distinctive style,clean,accurate and buitiful.
your ouds always have a nice feeling to them.
that is a very buitiful label.
keep this great work up!!

SamirCanada - 7-11-2006 at 09:28 PM

These are Verry Verry nicely taken shots of your work Jameel...
Its amazing really
I cant wait to see the end result. It's looking like a pure classic.
And that label is real nice.

mavrothis - 7-12-2006 at 07:56 AM

Wow! Such clean and beautiful work!

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it makes an impression on me everytime I see pics of your progress.

Geia sta xeria sou Jameel!

:applause:

mav

Jameel - 7-14-2006 at 04:37 PM

Ok guys, stop gushing or I'll disappear! :rolleyes:

Hosam,

I did think about the carbon fiber (or do you mean the graphite epoxy stuff at lmii?), but haven't researched it at all. You know lutes don't use a mechanical stringer, or even a dovetail. They utilize a bevelled butt joint with a nail or screw as reinforcement. The necks are softwood core usually with a thick veneer (1.5mm). Considering that there are dozens and dozens of 500 year old lutes still around, in great condition no less, has got me re-considering oud neck construction. And these instruments are almost always 6+ courses, so more tension than a typical oud. I think this dovetail is the best joint we know of, generally, and will hold quite well even with minimal glue. Now the issue of the neck itself bending over time is a separate one from the strength of the joint. If the joint is sound, but the neck bends, the sound joint becomes pointless. And vice versa. So if we have a sound joint and a stiff neck, the action can raise up from the body folding up. This has nothing to do with the neck. I think in the end the best way to keep things in place is to slather everything with JB Weld. Just kidding! ......is to make the neck joint sound, make the neck as stiff as possible (remember the lute, it has nothing special to accomplish this other than the veneer, which does help), and I think most importantly, is to make the oud as easy as possible to readjust the action down the road. Take for example a typical arabic oud. The quick and dirty way to re-adjust the neck angle is to whip out your saw and cut off the neck. Drill a couple holes for a new dowel (I'm no fan of the dowel, even for furniture), taper the neck block (!) or the end of the neck (double!) and reglue. Well, you've just shortened the scale length that the original maker was so careful to build around. You've also spoiled his careful neck joinery. Now to do it the right way (imo) the binding tiles have to be removed, the top lifted, and the neck removed with heat and moisture (assuming hide glue). This is a huge job. Would it not be great to have a quickly removable neck? I would much rather drop a rose (to access the neck block) than remove a top. I'm really just brainstorming here out loud, I'd like to hear some of your ideas about this.

Mostly quartersawn the ribs are (say with Yoda's accent :D)
I cut them all from a thick chunk that tapered off of quarter towards one side. I've used both quarter and flat. I don't think it much matters. But I'm no expert. Lute makers use both. I guess it all depends on what look you want.

Elie,

I just made the dovetail square all the way around. I'll plane the neck angle later, thus the extra thickness above the neck block plane.

Bone Pegs

Jameel - 7-14-2006 at 06:16 PM

I made this peg shaper for some bone pegs I'm planning on trying on this instrument.

Bone just doesn't cut well with typical woodworking tools. So I ended up grinding a high angle bevel (60 degrees) on the shaper's blade. It worked like a charm. I get actual bone shavings with this tool. It works like a dream on wood too. See the shine on the shank? That's straight from the cutter!

I made the shank quite thin. This is better for more precise tuning, since you have to turn the peg farther to raise/lower the pitch, and since it is bone it will hold up better than wood.

revaldo29 - 7-15-2006 at 08:44 AM

Hey Jameel,

I've never seem bone pegs before. Has this been done before and do they hold well?

Adnan

Jameel - 7-15-2006 at 10:28 AM

Adnan,

Bone pegs are used all the time. Many old instruments, before mechanical tuners, used typical friction pegs. I've seen a couple ouds with bone pegs. Some are even ivory. I've never used them before, but they are supposed to be better than wood. Here are some interesting links:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Museum/Banjo/Fairbanks/FandC/fandc....

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPAGES/Museum/Guitar/Martin/01034/01034.ht...

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPAGES/Museum/Guitar/Martin/01034/01034.ht...

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Museum/Guitar/Martin/MartinHarp/mar...

TruePharaoh21 - 7-15-2006 at 11:54 AM

Jameel,

You just continue to out-do yourself. What kind of bone is it? I wonder how it'll hold... great job.

TP21

SamirCanada - 7-15-2006 at 12:40 PM

My question is... Where do you find bone pegs?? Did you make them? ( wouldnt suprise from you actualy :) )

I can see the big picture on this oud slowly comming togheter. Its going to be one elegant... fine peice of oud

Keep on keeping on Jameel

Jameel - 7-15-2006 at 01:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TruePharaoh21
Jameel,

You just continue to out-do yourself. What kind of bone is it? I wonder how it'll hold... great job.

TP21


It's probably water buffalo or something. Who knows? If I get mad cow disease, we'll know where it came from. :D
Quote:
Originally posted by SamirCanada
My question is... Where do you find bone pegs?? Did you make them? ( wouldnt suprise from you actualy :) )



I didn't make them. Although I have been thinking about dusting off my lathe and turning some pegs. But turning bone pegs would be a real pain.
Here's a shot of the shamsa for this oud. I just finsihed the center calligraphy. I carved it a bit to give the letters a 3-D look, similar to a lute rose. It's Ivory Linen Micarta. It's not nearly as easy to cut as bone, this one is going to take a while.

SamirCanada - 7-15-2006 at 01:38 PM

WOW.

Hosam - 7-16-2006 at 06:59 PM

Shaving those pegs is a great idea. It will definitely allow for better tuning. I will use your improved pegs on all of my future ouds. I have contacted the same supplier and inquired if he would do a custom bone pegs with inlay for the Nahat oud. The answer was no, so I ended up ordering the same pegs you have ordered along with MOP inlay materials.

It is interesting that every time there is a discussion about the oud neck construction only the structure aspect is brought up. I believe that the neck design and the used materials will directly effect the sustain and volume of the oud. I do not know the secret behind the fact that the lutes seem to hold up better than ouds in the test of time. Most likely it has to do less with design and more with the construction method and quality. I am not also excluding the proper care/use for the completed instrument.

Assuming a very snug fit between the peg box, neck and the neck block to minimize energy loss hence the damping of the vibrating frequencies, I would like to try:
• Reinforce the neck joint with both the peg box and the neck block using a single or double carbon fiber rods (or graphite-epoxy).
• Increasing the thickness of the fingerboard (using only rosewood or ebony)
• Laminating the peg box walls on a 2 mm rosewood sheet in the middle.
• Use hard maple or mahogany for the neck and laminating the outside with matching wood that was used for the body.

The added weight/improved stiffness to a neck will not only benefit the structure aspect. It will improve the sustain and increase the volume of the oud. A better bridge design should be implemented otherwise we just transferred the problem from the neck to the body/face.

I do not see why not using an adjustable truss rod (from peg box side), bolts on neck or any other method to resolve neck adjustment problem. The short oud neck did not really prevent all these problems that oud maker has to deal with (most of repair jobs are neck related).

Here is a cross section of neck using double carbon fiber rods.

Hosam - 7-16-2006 at 07:02 PM

Here is a quick and dirty way that it implemented by some luthiers to reset the neck angle and adjust the action without removing the soundboard or disassembling the neck.

A very thin tapered piece of hardwood is driven into a small seem that is created by pulling down the neck away from the body. The depth of the wood scrap will determine the final resetting angle.

Jameel - 7-25-2006 at 04:55 PM

Very interesting info Hosam. You've given me much to consider. Most repaired ouds I've seen have this wedge driven in. I don't like it. I guess the oud has just been a "yalla, it's good enuf" type of instrument. In some way I can't disagree with that attitude, I appreciate the impermanence of it. I think with the internationalization (is that a word?) of the oud, these improvements are bound to occur. I think the simplest neck adjustment would be a quick and easy means to remove the neck. Not necessarily a truss-rod, since the short neck and light tension negate it. I'm thinking lately about a small bolt through the neck block and engaging the neck tenon, entering the back of the bowl just below the neck joint, and being covered by a nice cap, flush with the ribs. This area doesn't get touched really, and its a nice inconspicuous space. Removing the neck would be as easy as removing the cover and removing a single screw. The neck joint itself would get its stiffness from an well-fitted dovetail or similar joint. A small amount of glue could be used as well, which could very easily be steamed loose when the bolt is removed.

Finished rose

Jameel - 7-25-2006 at 04:59 PM

I began cutting the rest of the shamsa when I decided this micarta (ivory linen) was just too much of a pain. It's paper-based, and the blade (I tried several different ones) would clog readily, and the blade would lurch forward unexpectedly. This wasn't much of an issue with the calligraphy since it is so delicate, it required a light touch anyway. But with the rest of the piece, where I would normally cut a bit faster since the precision accuracy isn't as critical, this material was a real bear. So I saved the center piece and cut the rest from some walnut ply I made.

another view

Jameel - 7-25-2006 at 05:00 PM

Jonathan - 7-25-2006 at 05:21 PM

I love the conrast. Classic. And it makes the mircata look like ivory.

Peyman - 7-25-2006 at 06:44 PM

That's a good idea. Very nice Jameel, :airguitar:

chaldo - 7-25-2006 at 08:25 PM

I just love it, what can I say more?

You are an artist, creative and innovative person, you operate with preciseness, you look after details, you are meticulous, you are a person who can show his feelings/sensations through art, all this is accompanied by skill and craft in an awesome mix, flavors and moods can easely be extracted out of your work. One doesn't even have to look at the final result, first steps and initial details says it all, but most importantly, they tell about you. If you pass by Montréal, you absolutely need to pass by.

Thanks for letting me know that we are not living in a completely artificial world, determined by simulated emotions and expressions. thanks, Elia

SamirCanada - 9-7-2006 at 09:14 PM

What's the news Jameel?

Jameel - 9-8-2006 at 05:19 AM

I decided to let this oud age a while to develop its flavor and complexity. Much like a fine wine. :D

Just kidding. I've been very busy lately and the oud is on the back burner for a couple weeks.

Jameel - 11-4-2006 at 04:24 PM

After a several-months hiatus from this oud, I'm back at it!

I mentioned in a previous post that I had something unique in mind for this oud. I was able, with the generous help of a world-class classical guitar maker in my area, to make what's referred to as a "sandwich" top soundboard. Two soundboards (in this case, Western Red Cedar) are thinned to .55 mm and glued to a core of aerospace composite material known as Nomex. It's a honeycomb-shaped fabric that once glued to the skins, becomes incredibly strong. The soundboard ultimately is about the same thickness as a typical wood soundbaord. One major difference is that the sandwich top is about 40% lighter weight than a typical wood soundboard. The result of this is a louder instrument, with more robust sound. This may very well be the first sandwich top oud, I'm not sure, so the results should be interesting. I really do not know what to expect, but I'm anticipating similar results that guitar makers are getting from this method. More information on the sandwich top (also called a double top) can be found here: http://www.reynoldsguitars.com/dtop.shtml




The "skins" are really thin, and extremely fragile before glue up.



The Nomex honeycomb.



The center of the soundboard is reinforced with a strip of wood for the soundhole opening and bridge.



Vacuum clamping the soundbaord



After glue up.



After gluing on the second skin

Jameel - 11-4-2006 at 04:30 PM

Here are some pics of the rosette. The rosette, and any face inlay would ideally be done before making the sandwich top. The reason for this is that the top skin is very thin once the sandwich is made, and any inlay cavity would expose the Nomex, making gluing the inlay a more difficult job, since the honeycomb would capture a large amount of glue.



Jason - 11-4-2006 at 04:57 PM

Very cool idea. Is the Nomex material very expensive or does it just require a lot of labor? I was surprised to see that the double top is a $1600 upgrade on a guitar. It will be interesting to see if you feel the double top was worth the extra effort.

All my friends love the curly maple strip you put in your old Sukar :)

Jameel - 11-4-2006 at 07:02 PM

The Nomex isn't that expensive. You can get enough for one guitar for about $25.

$1600 is pretty expensive. But his guitars are about $3500. The guy that helped me sells his for $5500, with a sandwich top and sandwich back, with Brazilian or Blackwood sides/back. This is relatively low for a top-notch classical. Some guys are getting closer to 10k. Can you believe that?

Here's a luthier's joke for you. What did the luthier do after he won the lottery? Built guitars until the money ran out....:D

A yes, the "skunk" oud! That Sukar was a nice instrument. Post a clip of it when you get a chance.

sidjones - 11-4-2006 at 11:07 PM

Salam Jameel:

This looks like a great experimental project. I Think it's good to have a flexible mindset about oud design and construction. My first oud was designed to have a parabolic cross-section. This means that the only rib that was symmetrical was the center rib, and all the other ribs had unique shapes, albeit they came in pairs of mirror images so to speak. Richard Hankey (DrOud) saw this oud in 1971. Although it is about 14 inches wide, the depth is only about 5-1/2 inches. The benefit of this shape is that it is thin enough to be played while the player isstanding on a stage. I continue play this 35-year-old oud regularly. One of the reasons it is one of my favorites is that its back is made of Vermillion (Padauck) and Yellowheart and Ebony for a striking contrast.

Regards,

Sid

Hosam - 11-5-2006 at 09:07 AM

Very nice Jameel, I am sure this oud will sound awesome! I have seen triple top Nomex guitar top on one of the renowned luthier site on the web. The soundboard hole and the bridge area only benfit from the third layer for reinforcement. I guess the strip will do the same function, although covering more area than needed. Looking forward to hear the results for this great project.

Jameel - 11-5-2006 at 10:03 AM

Sid,

Welcome to the forums! Glad to have another oud enthusiast and maker on board. I'd love to see some pics of your instruments. Please post them. Your input here would be greatly appreciated.

Hosam,

I'm hoping it will have a really excellent quality sound. I've seen a few different ways of doing the Nomex. The guy I learned from learned from the guy in I think Sweden or Norway that developed the technique to begin with, so I trust his method. I don't know enough yet personally to say whether or not the strip covers more area than needed. It's especially difficult to say with the oud since the face geometry is so different than a guitar, what with the bridge being much lower on the face than on a guitar. Classical guitars also have a tad higher tension (not much really) than an oud. No doubt I'll be refining this technique for oud if this experimental one shows promise.

I should add too that Charles Fox is using a sandwich top with a high arch on his Ergo guitars, so much so that there are no braces! Now wouldn't that be an interesting experiment with the oud?

Hosam - 11-5-2006 at 01:57 PM

Jameel, did you use 0.040 inches thick for the Nomex? Can you give us more details about the thickness of the Cedar skin tops? Is it the same thickness or thinner near the edge? What kind of glue did you use? More detail about your vacuum system and gluing jig.

abusin - 11-6-2006 at 06:06 AM

Hi Jameel,

again a very interesting project as always from you, looking forward to the completion and the final look and soud clips,

all the best Jameel :bowdown::bowdown:

Awad

Veneering the neck

Jameel - 11-12-2006 at 07:00 PM

the core is limewood, the veneer is cherry.

Jameel - 11-12-2006 at 07:02 PM

Jameel - 11-12-2006 at 07:03 PM

using used bicycle inner tubes to clamp the veneer.

Jameel - 11-12-2006 at 07:04 PM

assembling the different components

SamirCanada - 11-13-2006 at 07:49 AM

Oh wow...
just beutifull Jameel. Its going to have a killer sound I can feel it.
Thanks for taking the time and posting.

Cutting ribs

Sam Dib - 11-13-2006 at 10:24 AM

Hello Jameel,

I really admire your work, especially your last oud is a work of art.

I was wondering which method would be best to obtain precise ribs and construction for the oud bowl.

I though of cutting the ribs before and then proceed with bending of each

Or, bend them and then shape them using a plane.

Is there one of these techniques that is better? offers more advantages in term of precision?

Thanks

Sam

Jameel - 11-25-2006 at 04:30 PM

Thanks Samir and Sam.

Sam, I bend my ribs while they are still rectangular, then shape them. But you can shape them first. I've done both. Most people do the former. Its a little easier to keep from twisting if the ribs are still rectangular. But I twist my ribs any way, so it doesnt make a big difference.

Pegbox joint

Jameel - 11-25-2006 at 06:42 PM

Cutting the pegbox notch with a veneered neck posed a challenge. I usually do this with my miter saw while the neck is still square. But with the shaped and veneered neck, cutting the notch accurately requires some serious fixturing if done with power tools. I was a bit impatient on this one and decided I didnt want to spend an afternoon making a fixture for this operation. So I came up with a simple fence for jigging a small fine-toothed hand saw to cut the angled notch. It worked excellently, and is more predictable than a power-tool based fixture, at least for me.

Jameel - 11-25-2006 at 07:07 PM

For this oud, I decided to put a finish on the soundboard. This is not very traditional among historical ouds, but I wanted to bring some color and life to the western red cedar, plus provide a bit of protection. I'm not crazy about using a finish on the face, I like to stick to the tried and true traditions of the best makers, but I thought I would give it a try at least once. I'm not fan of thick glossy finishes on the face, and I wasn't about to slather on a rubbery thick film of varnish or whatever. I started a thread over at the MIMF Forum (http://www.mimf.com/cgi-bin/WebX) concerning lute soundboard finishes, since these instruments are also left infinished, but there are a few makers that use a very light finish or surface preparation. I was intrigued by what I learned and actually employed the burnishing and shellac spit coat (thin coat) on this oud. See the thread here: thread

So far I'm really pleased with the finish. (see bottom two photos--post finish) I applied two extremely thin coats of 2lb cut shellac with an HVLP spray gun in two sessions. I used a very wide fan pattern and low fluid flow, for a dry spray that was almost invisible. Just enough to bring a slight sheen and pop the color of the cedar and face inlay. I finished up by one more burnish with the barron to smooth the surface. I should note that I sanded the face through 600 grit before burnishing. A light waxing is mentioned in that method, but I don't find it necessary at this point.

Greg - 11-25-2006 at 08:43 PM

Jameel, that is Drop Dead Gorgeous.

What a great artist you are. Even the photos of the tools and workbenches are inspirational.

Mabrouk!

Greg

SamirCanada - 11-26-2006 at 04:59 AM

A masterpeice in the works ya Jameel.
Dont think of it any less then that.
Iam extremely impressed by how nicely tight the edge tiles are. That has to be a lot of work. the rosette is carved to perfection.
That bone strip on the brige is a verry good idea wich is going to prevent the strings grooving in the brige.
I love this new pickguard too.
Khalaf oud's are going to be some of the most sought after ouds in the near future the way your work is turning out to be...Salam eidak

oudplayer - 11-26-2006 at 12:23 PM

hey jameel

all i have to say is your work is horible stop building for real man just stop .

just playen wowweeeee your oud is fabulous. keep up the good work
cant wait for the sound bro
thx sammy

INFAMOUD - 11-26-2006 at 01:03 PM

Hey Jameel,
I am still new to Ouds,But Wow..Now this is truly a masterpiece..It has a simple fresh look too it..But speaks out with a thousand words...Is it going on sale after you fininsh it?

mavrothis - 11-27-2006 at 06:58 AM

Bravo Jameel! How do your ouds keep getting more beautiful and ingenious? Very impressive as always my friend, it's hard not to stop and stare for a while.

Thanks as always for sharing both the images and your experiences/techniques with us. :) I know we are all anxious to hear this oud. How is the soundboard tapping so far?

Take care,

mavrothis

SamirCanada - 11-27-2006 at 07:23 AM

Great question Mav,
I was also wondering how it resonates to the tapping? what about if you hum in the sound hole?

Also Jameel.... I like this idea of using the Nomex material I think it should sound good.
My question though for you from a builder's point of view is, Do you think it can cut the necessary time to produce a top? I mean would it be possible to order the spruce or cedar veneer or skin and it would already be roughly right thickness? then all you do is glue it up using your vacum jig?

Super

LeeVaris - 11-27-2006 at 02:17 PM

This oud just keeps getting more interesting!

So what's up with the bone saddle for the bridge – how's that going to work? Also - I think I see a very unique oud stand there in one of the photos – are you teasing us Jameel? When do I get to order?

We're all dying to hear this baby! Keep going Jameel. :bounce::bounce:
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