Mike's Oud Forums

Oud teachers, who needs 'em!

David Parfitt - 1-9-2004 at 02:56 AM

Dear All

I’d like to start a discussion on the (often controversial) topic of whether it is necessary to learn the oud from a teacher, or whether it is possible to teach yourself. I have chatted about this subject with Mike in the past, and it would be good to hear some more opinions.

There are several reasons for my interest in this. Firstly, I am a relative beginner on the oud but am frustrated at the lack of progress I am making. My relative geographical isolation makes it difficult/expensive for me to take lessons on the oud, but on the other hand there are no useful written materials available for me to teach myself, and to pick up the essence of maqams from recordings alone is very hard.

Secondly, I have been developing an interest in Indian music, where the raga system has many parallels with maqams in M.E. music. Although the way of teaching this stuff has always been from master to student, there is nevertheless a lot of written material available (in English!) to guide the self-learner. I can only assume that the explosion of interest in Indian music in the 1960s gave people a head start in putting this knowledge down on paper, compared to similar material for the oud. However, there has apparently been quite a struggle to get people in the know to actually make this information available in written form.

Now here comes the controversial bit! Is it possible that teachers of the oud are propagating the ‘mystique’ of the maqam system, and revealing its secrets to only an initiated few (perhaps for reasons of self-interest), or is it truly possible to learn this stuff from a book + CD with the aid of a good ear and some imagination? None of the oud methods that I have so far managed to obtain are of any real use, with the notable exception of that by Mutlu Torun.

Look forward to your feedback on this.

Best wishes

David

Ziad - 1-9-2004 at 03:57 AM

Hello David

Im sharing your frustration, because i do have the same problem. I have been playing oud for 2½ years, and iam still beginner. I've got 4 lesson with a iraqi oud player (a good player), and later he start traveling.. I have red 5 different books on how to learn oud. Now after 2½ years, I can play all the songs i like, by sheet or by listening to the song. But until now i dont know how to do "takasim". I dont know how to develop a maqam and play solo. My oud experience have increased 150% since i found Mike's oudpage. And that was about 3 or 4 month ago. :-)
I mean it is very imported to have a oud teacher, beacuse you will be able to see and hear the oud playing. And he will correct you if you play wrong. It took me almost a year to learn the different between 1/2 and 1/4 tone.

I live in denmark, and i dont know any oud player, so I have to lear alone.

Oud Teachers

mavrothis - 1-9-2004 at 06:13 AM

Hi guys. I know exactly what you're talking about. Not from experience, I've had many teachers and extremely helpful encounters with players who went out of their way to help by answering questions and offering advice, but your problem of isolation seems to be very common on these forums.

Personally, I think it's always best to have a teacher, at least in the beginning. It's also good I think to focus on one school of playing to start out, just to give yourself a good base to start from. There are those who only need a few months of instruction and then feel best learning and studying on their own, returning to the teacher occasionally for specific questions.

Others like to have continual instruction, starting in the basics and continuing with higher technical and theoretical guidance as they progress.

I've built a website to try and help people in your situation, but truthfully, it does not come close to replacing a good and knowledgeable teacher. (Have you considered online lessons using webcam?)

Anyway, in my opinion, listening to the masters, carefully noting how they play taksim, is the best way to learn, along with learning the classical repertoire. Dr. Munir Nuretting Beken has said this to me often, sighing and shrugging his shoulders a little the times I showed him a new method book.

The keys to playing the makams correctly in taksim are in the classical repertoire and in the many beautiful examples of taksim that we have recorded and available to us. If you combine these true resources with a good teacher, all that's left is your own effort and patience. If you are truly in love with this instrument and feel isolated, I would suggest finding the time and the way to travel and study with a master player for a few months, maybe in a summer, if possible. I don't think if you chose a good teacher that you'd ever feel that time was wasted.

That's what I believe anyway.

Take care,

mavrothis

Mike - 1-9-2004 at 07:50 AM

Hey guys,

Nice topic David. I'm at work now, but look for my response later today.

Have a great day,
Mike

Alan - 1-9-2004 at 08:47 AM

Hi David,
Good topic. I am also a beginner after 6 years of going it alone. I have yet to find an oud teacher in my area. I also play at home with no exposure to other oud players as if in a vacuum. My exposure to M.E. music is only through CD's and tapes. I think you can learn the maquam system through books and web sites but I have not learned proper technique on my own and like you have felt fustrated by a lack of progress. A teacher would be invaluable to help move me ahead and motivate me to do better.

Wm. De Leonardis - 1-9-2004 at 11:06 AM

David and everyone,

This is my first post, although I've been reading this forum for awhile. I, too, have found it difficult to find any in depth material on oud practice and performance—with the exception of the Torun book. I had hoped that the John Vartan video would be helpful but I found it lacking, unless one was a complete novice. The closest teacher I could find to me was three to four hours away in Atlanta.

Much of the material I've located has either been cryptic, too rudimentary, contradictory to other sources, or combinations of aforementioned. Like some of the others, my only “lessons” have come from seeing an oudist in performance (live or on video) and listening to recordings. I’ve found these things invaluable, but their only good as far as you can distill applicable theory and performance from them.

I would agree with Mavrothis that lessons are very important, even if it’s only one or two. I also am studying the Persian radif and the tar. I was fortunate enough to have two lessons with Osthad M.R. Lotfi. Although we didn’t get very far into theory, I was still able to address many questions I had, such as proper hand position, tuning, what dastgha to start learning first, important gushe with each mode, etc. I still have a few burning questions, but those two lessons gave the right direction to go in and the confidence to trust my instincts. Unfortunately, I’ve never had the opportunity to sit down with an oud teacher and present theses same type of questions.

There are two collections that I have found helpful in ameliorating my understanding of at least two systems. Neither is specifically for oud, but the theory is, of course, applicable. While they’re not as good as having someone you can ask about such matters, they are helpful.

1) Makam: Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music by Karl Signell, (LC# ML3758.T8S5, ISBN 0913360074, Da Capo)

I think this is still the only book in English on classical Turkish music. Some of the material on the exact measurement of note frequency gets a bit too pedantic for me, and some of the theory is beyond my rudimentary understanding of written music, but this is an excellent overview of an extremely complex system. It’s been out-of-print for years, so try your library. If they don’t have the book, see if they can get it via interlibrary loan.

2) Dariush Tala'i "Radif of Mirza Abdollah" book (ISBN:1-56859-039-3, Bibliotheca Iranica: Performing Arts Series No. 3) and 5 CD's (ISBN:1-56859-073-3, Al Sur)

I don’t own the book. The CD’s and the accompanying booklets are extremely informative, though. All the scales within each Dastgha is written out in western notation—quarter tones are notated as in most of the Turkish theory books I’ve seen. One of my favorite things about this collection is that each scale within a dastgha is assigned a number. In the track listing, each gushe within that “mode” then has a number(s) that corresponds to the scale(s) used in that particular piece. I believe the book has all the gushe written out. Tala’i plays all the gushe on setar, but I’ve successfully learned them on tar and oud. I believe Amazon.com has these in stock.

David and Mavrothis, I find both of your web sites great resources of information, too—and, of course, this forum!

I hope somewhere in this discursive mess of a post is a cogent response.

All the best,
William

Ziad - 1-9-2004 at 02:04 PM

hi mavrothis

Webcam is a good idea. I have also think of making a program based on a video clip combining with theory and pictures. If anyone on this forum can teach oud, by making a program with some video clip, pictures and theory I can help with that. It might be a good idea, since no one have done this before. I can help to program all this, i am a programmer.

mavrothis - 1-9-2004 at 04:27 PM

that sounds cool ziad. an interactive computer program would be really cool. it would take some serious work, but man, that would be a big help for lots of people. the thing is like you said, we'd need access to some really knowledgeable players/teachers.

please lay some more ideas on us my man.

by the way guys, i hope you also understand that a true musician always gets frustrated, that's why you guys are annoyed. ziad, for 2 1/2 years of playing, it sounds like you are doing just fine. i've been playing oud 7 yrs and i'm still learning stuff all the time. so teacher or no teacher, you are always going to have frustration followed by breakthrough, followed by more frustration, etc...just keep playing and listening... :airguitar:

mav

Mike - 1-9-2004 at 06:01 PM

Hey guys,

Very interesting discussion. Well, in a nutshell, I think having a teacher is very important. Now let me give a little background information to clarify why I think this.

About 4 years ago I started to really get into Farid el-Atrache. I liked him before that, but didn't really start to become an addict until about 4 years ago. Anyway, shortly after that I had the crazy idea of learning how to play the oud. Prior to that I had zero musical background except for singing hymns in church and playing cymbals and the "tiriyanto" (triangle). To make a long story short, I was pretty much starting from zilcho. I didn't know how to read music (and still don't), didn't have that great an ear, and pretty much had no exposure to the oud other than some recordings for Farid. I am lucky though, and had the fortune of hooking up with a great teacher. He isn't close, but he isn't four hours away either. So I say I am pretty fortunate. I feel for your William!

This is what happens to me if I go without lessons for a few weeks.
1. I don't practice as much
2. I repeatedly hit that stupid wall we've mentioned earlier at full speed, i.e. I don't feel like I am learning anything new as far as technique goes, and therefore not progressing
3. I hate myself, look for a bar, a very tall building, and/or a gun! :xtreme:

Anyway, this is just me, and I am sure there are people out there much more dedicated and motivated than I am. And this is great, but I still think even with motivation and dedication, one still needs a teacher. A few years back I was in Egypt and was lucky enough to meet Naseer Shamma at the Opera House right before a lesson he had with his students. There was a group of about 6 or 7, and these students were way up there. But they were with Naseer to get to the next level. Even Farid el-Atrache went to Sunbati for lessons. And I believe this happened after he was an established oud player. Mavro, you said it...the learning never stops.

The last thing I want to point out is that ornamentation and embellishments can't be learned in any method book or from a score. This is another reason why I think oud teachers are important. Listen to a taqsim from an amatuer player and compare it to an experienced and learned one. The amatuer tends to do the same things, but a pro mixes it up, modulates, and makes the oud speak to the listener. And my belief is she/he learned these techniques from a teacher.

Now, to address your question David about "mystique" and oud teachers' self-interests. I don't think oud teachers are interested in wasting their time really. That's all. This is what happened with me with Wael. I was very frustrated very early on in my lessons with those redundant beginners exercises. Remember, I was starting from scratch, and it probably took me about 2 or 3 months before I felt like I was even making music. I found it hard to practice at first because of this frustration. One afternoon Wael really gave it to me man. He said, "Listen Mike, if you don't do the exercises I'm showing you, then I don't think we will be able to continue with lessons." And he was serious. Does this make him a jerk? No, not at all. He is the coolest, but that fire he lit under my butt went a long way.

Now, the problem is that finding an oud teacher in your area is not always the easiest task. Ziad, that is a cool idea. Maybe we can collaborate on a project together. Wael actually told me now he knows what I was looking for with the "instructional videos", and wants to redo them. I kinda sprung that idea on him that same day, and he wasn't exactly sure what I meant. So that is in the works. Any suggestions from you guys on what you would like to be addressed would be very helpful too. Okay, I better shut my big mouth or else this will keep going and going and going like the energizer bunny.

Have a great weekend,
Mike

David Parfitt - 1-10-2004 at 03:55 AM

Hi everyone

Many thanks for all the detailed feedback, and I’d like to respond to some of you in turn. First though, I should maybe say something about my own experience with learning music.

I first started with (compulsory!) piano lessons when I was a kid – this went on for several years, during which time I learnt virtually nothing and was almost turned off music for life. In my teens I then discovered the guitar, and set about teaching myself with the help of numerous books and listening carefully to recordings. I played for around ten years and could play most things I wanted from listening or getting hold of sheet music/tablature. Then came the oud! I was quite pleased initially that I could carry across a lot of what I learned from the guitar (picking, left-right hand coordination, sense of rhythm, reading music reasonably well etc.) However, what I heard on the many oud CDs still remained out of reach. The only methods I obtained were in Arabic or Turkish, and although I did translate a lot with the help of dictionaries and subsequently added it to my website, I was still no closer to my goal. This is still pretty much where I am today, in the same kind of position as Ziad and Alan.

Mavrothis, what you said was very thought-provoking and your website is absolutely invaluable - it seems to be pitched at just the right level. However, both your site and Mutlu Torun’s book deal pretty much with the ‘Turkish’ tradition. I know I am on shaky ground here and the distinctions or definitions are not clearly defined, but there does not seem to be anything comparable for what I would call the ‘Arabic’ style of oud playing. I guess there is a lot of common material in what you describe as the ‘classical repertoire’, but I still feel that the Turkish tradition is much better supported. Maybe someone can correct me on this or clarify matters a little?

William, good to hear from you! I do have the two books you mentioned and they are really helpful. It was something that Karl Signell said that first made me wonder whether knowledge was being consciously withheld or not. He implies that musicians had been rather unforthcoming when he was trying to discover more about the ‘seyir’ or path of a particular makam (but maybe this was only because they did not know how to explain it concisely). What I would dearly love to see is something on maqams in a similar format to ‘The Raga Guide’ (Nimbus Records) for Indian music. This is a book accompanied by 4 CDs: it discusses 74 different ragas, presents the Indian equivalent of the ‘seyir’ as taught from master to student, and also includes a short piece in each raga to illustrate the ideas (with transcription). It is similar in a way to the radif guide that you mentioned for Persian music.

Mike, thanks for taking us through your experiences, burnt butt and all! It sounds like you have a great teacher in Wael Kakish, and it would be brilliant if he could help out with the instructional videos. I wanted to ask you whether you could give more details of which pieces you progressed through during your studies, and whether the music for them is readily available? My problem is often that I have the sheet music but no recording to listen to, or vice versa! At least that is something we can address via this forum. You know I often wonder, as Mav suggested, whether to take several months out and study full-time somewhere abroad, and where it is possible to do this kind of thing. Maybe that is a topic for a new thread? I must say, looking out the window at the weather here in England it is tempting to come and join you in California!

Anyway, sorry for going on for so long, and look forward to hearing all your further responses.

All the best

David

norumba - 1-10-2004 at 09:49 AM

interesting thread....
my own experience is that a teacher is good, but one does what one can, with what one has. Its not an either/or situation...I think many of us have a problem that teachers arent close by.
My needs are kind of specific because of an interesting background: -after playing guitar for some 30 years, i discovered the oud 3 years ago and have never looked back!
I play jazz, avantgarde free improv ( which isnt really "free";), and flamenco - studied improv and comp at NEC, along with some micortonal music systems as well. So I had some things that have helped with oud playing and taqsim - I was phiscally comfortable with operating a stringed instrument, I knew how to build solo improvisations, etc.
What i need - and i study whenever i can - are the subtleties of the ground rules in a taqsim - which maqam flows from what, etc. there is also a good site - http://www.maqamworld.com - that discusses these ideas alittle bit, and i find it quite helpful. ill check the other sites mentioned here... i think Davi'ds right, an equivalent of the "Raga Guide" is really needed.


One thing i did when learning all the different flamenco palos, or specific forms, is to custom mix cassette tapes ( in those days, before CD burning was possible), of one form. For oud, and ive done this too, is to make a CD or tape of all hijaz taqsim - another of all Nahawand, etc. then literally, live with it. I put these on continuous repeat at low volume under headphones and literally sleep with it. So much can seep in through the subconscious. in a few months, you'll begin to see the effect of this in your playing....

oud teachers , who needs them

zovanou - 1-11-2004 at 09:17 AM

I have been fortunate enough to study with ara dinkjian for the last 16 months .I am a self taught bouzouki and guitar player and having experience from both perspectives. I believe that a good teacher is the best option in learing the oud.Teachers critiques of your, posture technique , pitch etc. are invaluable in learing this great instrument. Again I am fortunate in having a great teacher who is also a great gentleman The lack of interaction in learning from a book , video etc. a great hinderance, plus the methods i have seen have not impressed.

Mike - 1-11-2004 at 09:17 AM

Hey guys,

Stefan, that is a very good idea you have there. I used to do something similar to that when I wanted to learn a long hymn. I used to record it several times on tape, and just listen to it all the time . . . especially as I'm going to sleep. I think I might try something like that for the oud and maqams. Thanks for that tip. :applause:

David, first off, let me say that I totally agree with you about Mav's site. It is invaluable! Yours ain't too shabby either my man. ;) As far as how I progressed with Wael and the materials he teaches me, at first he tried teaching me how to read music, but I was not too enthused about it. :shrug: So he basically teaches me by ear, and after the beginning exercises and stuff he moved on to doulabs and semais. He would focus on a maqam, teach me the scale, talk about what other maqams flow well with it, and then teach me a couple of pieces on that maqam (usually starting out with a doulab or intro). He shows me how to play it very simply at first, and kinda shows me a few technique tips as I "try" to memorize the piece. Refer to the video clip I called, "putting it all together". That is one of the latest semais he is teaching me. Look at how he plays it very simply at first, and then how he plays it the second time. I'll try to get more videos up like that soon.

Take care,
Mike

nadir - 1-13-2004 at 12:14 PM

I believe that one does not need a teacher to learn the oud. I actually have taught myself the oud and am fairly good at it, alone. However, I have a teacher on the side and he is also indispensible to my skills in pursuing this beautiful instrument.

Ronny Andersson - 1-13-2004 at 01:11 PM

>
Quote:
Originally posted by nadir
>I believe that one does not need a >teacher to learn the oud. I actually have >taught myself the oud and am fairly >good at it, alone.


I agree with your statement. Its depends on talent. It easy to see-hear if a student has talent and will master the
oud. The talented ones manage to study by themselves and that is more creative. I spend some time with an Iraqi teacher when I was a young guy and after a short time he ¨abandon me¨.