billkilpatrick - 8-21-2006 at 02:45 AM
weiss, mozart and beethoven wrote pieces influenced by the turkish presence in europe and the arabo/andalusian repertoire gradually became more of the
later, less of the former under spanish influence ... are there pieces in the arabic (broadly speaking) repertoire - oud in particular - which reflect
a discernable european influence?
this is the reverse of a question currently posted to the lute list: are there examples of middle-eastern influences in the european lute
repertoire?
- bill
Brian Prunka - 8-21-2006 at 06:32 AM
I think it's clear in some samais and longas the influence of European harmony; while not employing chords, triadic structures (arpeggios) are used ,
and chordal progressions are sometimes implied.
I can't prove this is because of European influence, but it seems extremely likely, given the general absence of those features in Ottoman/Arabic
music.
If you look at later music, European influence is all over the place (Abdel Wahab, Sounbati, Qassabji, Rahbanis).
examples:
4th hane of Samai Farahfaza (Tanburi Çemil Bey) implies some typical chord progressions (I-V-I etc) and ends with a minor arpeggio.
Samai Hijaz (Refik Talat Alpman) begins with a major arpeggio. 4 hane has clear chordal implications and uses arpeggios.
Samai Nahawand (Neyzen Tevfik Kolaly) uses a major arpeggio in hane 2.
samai Nahawand (Mes'ud Çemil) uses minor and major arpeggios in hane 4.
Longa Nahawand (Tanburi Çemil Bey) implies a harmonic progression in the 2nd hane.
Dr. Oud - 8-22-2006 at 09:01 AM
Besides the compositional aspects, in the Persian Dastgah system there have been changes in how the modes are played on western instruments incapable
of producing the bemol and koron notes ( 1/4 tones). Piano, silver flute, and other western instruments used to play Persian music have developed a
whole branch of music known as "Western Dastgah". This influence has been addressed in a recording by Majid Kiani, who is the professor of
Traditional Music at Tehran University. He spect some years in Paris at the Sorbonne studying western music, and recognizes the legitimacy of the new
form although he plays and teaches Traditional Dastgah music.
billkilpatrick - 8-22-2006 at 09:45 AM
the modern "world music" melange, i imagine, has influenced everyone - i was wondering if there were historical, classical examples where western
influence(s) could be detected.
when you (brian) say:
"...triadic structures (arpeggios) are used , and chordal progressions are sometimes implied. I can't prove this is because of European influence,
but it seems extremely likely, given the general absence of those features in Ottoman/Arabic music."
... is this also the case for the north african repertoire? harmony seems such a natural thing to do - was it really uncommon in arabo-n.african
music?
- bill
Brian Prunka - 8-22-2006 at 01:31 PM
Not sure what N. African rep. you're referring to . . . Tunisian? Muwashshahat?
Harmony in a limited sense, of having multiple tones sounding simultaneously, is I agree a natural extension of most music. In this sense,
drone-based music (e.g., raga, some taqsim) is harmonic.
Triadic harmony is trickier, even parallel triadic harmony like in sub-saharan africa (we don't know how far back this goes, and may or may not be the
result of european influence) and as existed in medieval/rennaissance england, was unusual at the time. The concurrent Arabic/Turkish music was
monophonic/heterophonic, to my knowledge, and most European music at that time was based on non-triadic polyphony.
Functional harmony, which doesn't just used triads but involves structural voice-leading principles is a distinctly European phenomenon. When I refer
to chordal progressions being implied, I'm referring to functional harmony (progression is by definition functional).
Simply arpeggiating triads could be coincidental (though, given the generally stepwise structure of middle-eastern melody, it seems unlikely). The
combination of triads with implied functional harmony seems almost certainly from European influence.
I assume that composers like Tatyos et al could be assumed to have some awareness of western music, no?
I'm no ethnomusicologist, though, so I'd be interested to hear any counter-examples or evidence to the contrary.
In the muwashshahat repertoire and most of the classical ottomon repertoire, there is a striking absence of any triadic/harmonic structures.
billkilpatrick - 8-23-2006 at 02:27 AM
i have a very general - at best - understanding of the middle-eastern modes, along the lines that ionian, aeolian, dorian, etc. modes were named for
areas in greece where these modes were popular. i assume that variatons in maqam (call them what you will) - from east to west - are pretty much the
same.
i also understand that up until 1500 or so, middle-eastern and european culture were more or less on a par, in terms of influence (science, music,
arts) but that the renaissance of classical culture in europe went into overdrive after that date and middle-eastern influence (invading ottomans
excluded) ground to a halt - at least in europe.
i'm very much interested - concerned, really - with the possibility that multi-cultural societies, world-wide will fail dramatically. it would be
helpful to point to instances in our mutual history when we were not trying to kill each other but rather, singing each other's songs.
- bill