Mike's Oud Forums

Measurement from bridge to end of body on Egyptian ouds

Jason - 9-27-2006 at 04:37 AM

Can someone give me this measurement? Let me know from which side of the bridge it is measured... soundhole side or knot side.

Thanks

Dr. Oud - 9-27-2006 at 07:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jason
Can someone give me this measurement? Let me know from which side of the bridge it is measured... soundhole side or knot side.

Thanks
This measurement will vary according to the size of the oud and is not really important anyway. The critical location of the bridge is twice the length of the neck from the neck/body joint to the front edge of the bridge. If this location is correct the neck/body joint will be exactly below the harmonic node.

Jason - 9-30-2006 at 08:31 AM

Let me explain why I ask... I was looking at an oud with 58.5cm string length but the neck and body are the same as a lot of egyptian ouds. The maker has shortened the string length by moving the bridge forward.

It seems like this would alter the position of the harmonic in relation to the body joint, correct?

Dr. Oud - 10-2-2006 at 09:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jason
Let me explain why I ask... I was looking at an oud with 58.5cm string length but the neck and body are the same as a lot of egyptian ouds. The maker has shortened the string length by moving the bridge forward.

It seems like this would alter the position of the harmonic in relation to the body joint, correct?

That would depend on the length of the neck. "a lot of egyptian ouds" is what exactly? for a 58.5cm string length, the neck should be 19.5cm.

Jason - 10-2-2006 at 04:30 PM

ah I don't know. Looks like there are too many variables to get an answer. The neck is the same as what's on his 60cm string length ouds. I'm not getting the oud anyway, too much trouble figuring this junk out. Thanks for the help.

SamirCanada - 10-2-2006 at 04:58 PM

So Jason wich oud are you getting finaly?
what Iam getting at is that I can tell your woried about droping a conciderable amount of dough on your next oud. Well... I remember exactly the position I was in too about a year ago and I bought my oud. I was actualy losing sleep because of how undicisive I was. Analysing ouds and comparing them laying awake in bed. My advice to you. Go with any of the professional makers that get good reviews on the forrums. These guys know what there doing and so if you hear a sound sample and you fall in love with the sound... Get it. Thats the only way to tell if its a good oud. Because like you say otherwise you will sit around and think about that junk and in the end it may not work in your favor.
There are to many ways of making a oud and luthiers work there magic the way they do. So honestly listen to the oud carefully in the most neutral recording possible and then look at some pictures to see if the oud is damaged or if its structuraly sound. If its built wrong the sound wont be good so guide yourself with that. Just my point of view hope I helped instead of adding to the agony.
Take care buddy

Jason - 10-2-2006 at 06:08 PM

Thanks for the advice Samir, it's good to know I'm not alone in this haha

I may be getting a Turkish oud from Mr. Gokce that posts here. I'm having some issues with doing a wire transfer from my bank to a foreign country so it's not a done deal yet.

I've also got my eyes out in case a nice used oud comes up for sale. I'll get one eventually hehe

jdowning - 10-9-2006 at 03:00 PM

How definitive of oud geometry is the relationship - neck length (front edge of nut to neck/body joint) = 1/3 vibrating string length: neck/body joint to front edge of bridge = 2/3 vibrating string length?
The reason that I ask is that my 'Egyptian' (?) oud - destined for restoration - has a vibrating string length of 621 mm and a neck length of 202 mm which is about 5 mm too short according to the above relationship. Is this difference within the accuracy limits of the ratio measurement?
Alternatively, could this discrepancy be an indication that the neck has been shortened a little because of a past repair to the neck joint? There is some evidence to indicate that this might be the case.

Dr. Oud - 10-10-2006 at 09:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdowning
How definitive of oud geometry is the relationship - neck length (front edge of nut to neck/body joint) = 1/3 vibrating string length: neck/body joint to front edge of bridge = 2/3 vibrating string length?
The reason that I ask is that my 'Egyptian' (?) oud - destined for restoration - has a vibrating string length of 621 mm and a neck length of 202 mm which is about 5 mm too short according to the above relationship. Is this difference within the accuracy limits of the ratio measurement?
Alternatively, could this discrepancy be an indication that the neck has been shortened a little because of a past repair to the neck joint? There is some evidence to indicate that this might be the case.
The neck will be unavaoidably shortened to re-set the angle to correct a high action. due to body warp -another unavaoidable event over the years. The length should be replaced with a spacer between the neck and body, but often is overlooked. The spacer could be added during the restoration to correct the neck length. The ratio is necessary for proper position of the fingering position at the neck joint, but won't affect playing at lower positions.

jdowning - 10-10-2006 at 02:08 PM

Thanks Richard - that is the most likely explanation. This Oud has a fingerboard with decorative inlays representing "fret positions'. The 7th 'fret' is at the neck/body joint but is actually a packing veneer used either to reset the neck or adjust repairs made to a cracked neck block (or both). I attach images to show those interested what it is I am referring to.
I guess that the guy making the repairs in the past figured that a 5mm thick packer would have been too obvious so just left the neck a little too short? Probably not too critical from the oud player's point of view.
John

jdowning - 10-10-2006 at 02:11 PM

.... and here is an image of the joint packer from the back of the neck. Pretty rough workmanship!

Dr. Oud - 10-10-2006 at 03:19 PM

It appears that the neck block is wider than the end of the neck. The extra thick bracellet was made to cover this mismatch. This is evidence of the loss of the neck length. You can draw an extension of the edge of the body on the fingerboard with a straight edge. Where the extended line meets the neck edge, measure back to the neck block. That is the thickness of the spacer required to recover the neck length. Calculating from the string length is not acurate because of the shortened neck where it is now. The spacer added to the string length should make the ratio 1:3. You could replace the fingerboard veneer over the top of the spacer if you want to make the restoration look original. The spacer needs to be fitted to the entire neck block, not just a wedge driven in as this appears. The dowel hole can be a little larger in the spacer to make the fit easier. You can see the process on my Neck re-set page.

jdowning - 10-11-2006 at 06:44 AM

It just goes to show the need to examine all of the fine detail before proceeding with restoration work. This is another repair item that I will add to my list.
Jason - sorry to have used your thread to pose this question. It just seemed at the time more appropriate than trying to cover it under 'Egyptian Oud Restoration Part 1' where it strictly should be.
John