Mike's Oud Forums

quill picks

nadir - 1-24-2004 at 11:27 AM

i was wondering if anyone was interested in quill picks from various birds. i have acquired falcon and eagle feathers from some of the birdkeepers around here... they are ordinarily so precious that if a falcon loses or breaks his feather, its glued back on but i got them for free!! :D

there are a few of these left and im giving them away so just tell me who wants one!! (mike, spyros, and basel im saving you guys some already!)

spyros mesogeia - 1-24-2004 at 12:04 PM

ohhh brother I really apreciate that....I really do.....
I am searching very long time.....
Nadir I am interresting and for horns,big ones.....any sources?
Do you know prices for them?
regards

TruePharaoh21 - 1-24-2004 at 01:00 PM

Wow, that's quite a treasure you have there. My only question is... is falcon quills legal in America? I know eagle quills have been outlawed here. If anyone knows any loopholes, lemme know. :D

TP21

nadir - 1-24-2004 at 02:31 PM

o man! TP! almost forgot about you! you havent been on for so long! i'll save a quill for you too...

well, i know that eagle feathers are illegal in the US but i think that falcon feathers are not illegal because falcons in the states are so rare to find as opposed to the top knotch ones imported from siberia over here! :D

anyways, all i hope is that they dont keep them at customs!!! :xtreme:

nadir - 1-24-2004 at 02:33 PM

spyros, thank you so much for all that you have done for me. i'll look for horns over here for you, but so far i havent been very sucessful. i can get a hold of goat horns EASILY but i think that you would be able to as well. ;)

but what i can get are camel bones.... but even those are rare... let me know if i can help you out in any way. :bounce:

spyros mesogeia - 1-24-2004 at 03:49 PM

send them by post office.....hehehhehe
man I am very happy about that.....hehhehehe
thanks

TruePharaoh21 - 1-24-2004 at 06:20 PM

Oh wow, nadir. I was just asking. I didn't mean to impose myself for a risha. I certainly don't want to make it a difficult task for you. I thank you for thinking of me, nadir, but it's such a precious thing to have (the quills, that is). I certainly don't want you to feel robbed of them.

TP21

Zulkarnain - 1-24-2004 at 11:32 PM

Can I have one dude?

nadir - 1-25-2004 at 05:27 AM

k, zulkarnain, you ended up with the last one... lucky you!!

Zulkarnain - 1-25-2004 at 06:15 AM

Hi Nadir

THANKS

THANKS AGAIN

THANKS AGAIN N AGAIN

THANKS



Regards

TP21

nadir - 1-25-2004 at 10:12 AM

hey pharaoh, trust me, you weren't imposing AT ALL, anyways, i'll get the feathers sorted out and hopefully they wont be stopped at customs, lol!

nadir

ps. your welcome zulkarnain!

Horn rishas

Rufi - 1-25-2004 at 11:05 PM

Nadir, If you are looking for horn Rishas try the Nile shop on ebay. Email yehia He has sent me some that were pretty good quality.


P.S. The only loop holes that I know for having eagle feathers in the us is to be Native American or to not show them off.


Good luck
and Blessings to the oud and those who love it

Rufi

TruePharaoh21 - 1-25-2004 at 11:51 PM

Nadir, I can't thank you enough for a gift like this. I hope there is someway that I can repay you. Ask and I shall give it to you to the best of my abilities.

TP21

nadir - 2-2-2004 at 07:17 AM

thanks for the notice on the feathers rufi.

i am short two feathers now since they bent (and i do not want to send people bent feathers) anyways, send me the mailing addresses and i'll get them out as soon as possible! :buttrock:

Zulkarnain - 2-2-2004 at 08:05 AM

Hi Nadir

Did you get my address? I sent it tru U2U the other day-Let me know if you need it again. Thanks for the Eagle Quil dude! :bounce: appreciate it!


Salam

Zul

nadir - 2-2-2004 at 08:30 AM

yes, i have your address zul, your welcome!

may you enjoy it as much as i hope you will! :airguitar:

Zulkarnain - 2-28-2004 at 06:45 PM

Hi guys

Just wondering if everyone receive their quil risha yet?

Thank you

nadir - 3-2-2004 at 07:49 AM

Zul, Peter, I sent yours out today... 30 minutes ago! haha, hope you enjoy them! ;)

Zulkarnain - 3-2-2004 at 07:58 AM

Hey

Appreciate it man..dont forget to help me how to adjust the quil (never use one before)

Salam

nadir - 3-2-2004 at 08:21 AM

No problem... but the quills that I sent out are pretty small... I don't think that they need too much adjusment, if any! :D

Zulkarnain - 3-2-2004 at 08:37 AM

Eagle quil right? Same technique as using the horn risha?:shrug:

spyros mesogeia - 3-2-2004 at 08:40 AM

Hey Nadir,don't forget about me.....:)
Regards

nadir - 3-6-2004 at 01:52 PM

Spyros, sent yours out today... :D sorry for the delay!!

Nadir

nadir - 3-6-2004 at 01:54 PM

O yeah, I'll also be posting up some pictures of the quill rishas that I have left (as well as the one I sent to Spyros...) everyone else that gave me their addresses, e-mail me soon regarding the quills...

spyros mesogeia - 3-6-2004 at 05:30 PM

Dear friend Nadir,
Thank you very much,I really apreciate it
Regards
Spyros

Zulkarnain - 3-21-2004 at 02:48 AM

Hi Sypros and everyone:wavey:

Just wondering if you guys already receive your eagle quill pick? Let me know how is it work ok...thanks guys! :)


Salam

nadir - 3-21-2004 at 04:00 AM

They got sent back to me, something about "health safety", post some pics up though if you guys want... Zul, I can get yours to you when you come to DXB.

Zulkarnain - 3-21-2004 at 04:03 AM

Hi Nadir

Its ok bro not a problem maybe next time..Il be in Cairo this June.


Regards

nadir - 3-21-2004 at 04:05 AM

It's really a shame though... they were beautiful.

Zulkarnain - 3-21-2004 at 04:09 AM

:D

spyros mesogeia - 3-21-2004 at 05:21 AM

Dear friend Nadir,
Don't worry about that my friend,that what really counts is that you tryed to send it to us,
I personally really apreciate that very much
Regards
Spyros

Ronny Andersson - 3-21-2004 at 01:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nadir
They got sent back to me, something about "health safety", post some pics up though if you guys want... Zul, I can get yours to you when you come to DXB.


Nadir, The quills were maybe returned because you sent the entire feather. The plum must be removed and cut them short around 10cm is enough for use. Sure it looks nice with a long risha with some plum but not necessary.

Pea<b>rooster</b> Feathers

LeeVaris - 3-21-2004 at 02:50 PM

I have quite a few complete pea<b>rooster</b> wing feathers - these are 15" long and include the full quill. I'm wondering if these can be used for rishas. They are wing feathers - not the colorful tail feathers. They have a rather hard stiff quill however so I don't know how they would work.

Ronny - do eagle quills gain some flexibility after soaking them in olive oil for 6 months? Do you use the quill as is or can you shape it by sanding, etc...

I was going to use these feathers to make arrows but I have several dozen so I'm sure I can spare a few.

spyros mesogeia - 3-21-2004 at 02:56 PM

Dear friend Nadir,
I usually play with long rishas,please clean them and send them longer than 13 cm if it is possible....
Regards
Spyros

Ronny Andersson - 3-21-2004 at 03:10 PM

Lee, Only very large wing quills from predator birds are usable for risha. There are no good substitutes for eagle quills and I'll post photos of the part of the feather one uses for risha making.I'll also show you what the oil does.

Feather Photos

LeeVaris - 3-21-2004 at 04:28 PM

Here's what my feathers look like:

Close up of tip

LeeVaris - 3-21-2004 at 04:29 PM

These feathers are 37 cm long

Zulkarnain - 3-21-2004 at 06:58 PM

Lee

That is awesome quill man....spare one for me?:D


Salam

TruePharaoh21 - 3-21-2004 at 07:05 PM

Lee, how'd you find feathers like these in Los Angeles? There's only some remote farms here and there that have pea<b>rooster</b>s, but nothing widespread. I'm just curious...

TP21

Feathers from Missouri

LeeVaris - 3-21-2004 at 07:34 PM

I got these feathers along with some Turkey feathers from a guy in Missouri. These were supplied for making arrow fletching – the feathers at the end of an arrow. One of my other hobbies is primitive/traditional archery and I was interested in making arrows from unprocessed, raw feathers. At any rate I now have a box full of these pea<b>rooster</b> feathers. I'll be happy to send one out to any of the experts to see if they might be suitable for rishas for the oud.

Let me know if you want one.

Zulkarnain - 3-21-2004 at 07:53 PM

:wavey: errr I want one:D

email me

LeeVaris - 3-21-2004 at 10:20 PM

Hey Zulk, Spyros & others,

Email me with your address and I'll send one off to you.

I don't really know if these will work any where near as well as eagle rishas but I suppose its worth a try... I look forward to hearing from Ronny about more detailed instructions for the preparation of such "quill" rishas.

I must tell you... the raw quill is not very playable - I can sort of get it to work but its very tricky and stiff – the point has a tendency to hang up/catch on the strings. I don't know if eagle rishas have a different shape to the tip or if anything can really be done to shape it at all.

Anyway, please email me at:

varis@varis.com

Ronny Andersson - 3-22-2004 at 07:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LeeVaris
Hey Zulk, Spyros & others,

Email me with your address and I'll send one off to you.

I don't really know if these will work any where near as well as eagle rishas but I suppose its worth a try... I look forward to hearing from Ronny about more detailed instructions for the preparation of such "quill" rishas.

I must tell you... the raw quill is not very playable - I can sort of get it to work but its very tricky and stiff – the point has a tendency to hang up/catch on the strings. I don't know if eagle rishas have a different shape to the tip or if anything can really be done to shape it at all.

Anyway, please email me at:

varis@varis.com


Exactly not very playable! This type of risha is what many early lutenists uses, together with many other for us oud players ¨strange¨ materials. All of them are far to weak for modern strings and the aggressive oud technique.
I believe few knows which part the traditional eagle quill risha is made of. But first I must state there are no other bird specie that I'm aware about that have so strong and large wing pens as the eagle.Other bird species like pea<b>rooster</b>, turkey have far to small and fragile wing pens. The part you used Lee is the end section of the shaft that is hollowed, transparent and nearly round in shape. This section is removed from the eagle quill; one uses the upper part of the shaft and is best if you take a look here :Feather
Is the section that is described as ¨ trunk of a tree¨ . This section that is nearly flat is divided in two section and it's the upper part which is black on a eagle feather that is being used. This is a very delicate work and it's easy to ruin a feather. The Iraqi method that I'm practicing, is to keep lot of the white soft material that is inside the central part of the shaft. This white material gets very hard after storage in olive oil for 6 months. Munir Bashir told that 6 months was necessary and my own empirical experiments confirms his words. Unfortunately I don't have an entire feather to show you the procedure but I know that Tony Klein here in Sweden has a very old eagle feather but I don't think he wants me to cut in it....anyhow, I attach a photo of finished shaped risha but they haven't been stored in oil and that's why the white is still white.
The eagle risha is played with black upper for downstroak. More could be said and feel free to ask.

Ronny Andersson - 3-22-2004 at 07:21 AM

Here's the eagle quills.

Maybe this can work

LeeVaris - 3-22-2004 at 12:36 PM

Very interesting!

If I cut off the round quill point I'm back into a flatter section where the "feather" actually attaches to the shaft. This part of the shaft is solid inside and I can sand down the end into a more reasonable shape for the risha.

Here's a shot showing the cut and sanded quill.

Not exactly eagle

LeeVaris - 3-22-2004 at 12:38 PM

Here's a close up showing the end

It plays

LeeVaris - 3-22-2004 at 12:41 PM

I can actually play with this the way it is. It's still pretty stiff but it seems quite strong. The surface is a bit soft though so I'm not sure how long it would last with extended playing.

It might be worth trying the olive oil treatment to see if it makes it more durable.

What do you think Ronny – worth a try?

Ronny Andersson - 3-22-2004 at 02:04 PM

Lee, I think you need to reduce the size a bit - it looks to big and try also to split the entire shaft in two sections. I don't see much of the ¨white¨ stuff, it maybe is because of the white colour of the pen itself. This risha looks like the ones the medieval guys have.

Sizes

Ronny Andersson - 3-22-2004 at 02:05 PM

Ronny Andersson - 3-22-2004 at 02:07 PM

.

Like this?

LeeVaris - 3-22-2004 at 03:06 PM

So you split the quill shaft in half?

Close-up

LeeVaris - 3-22-2004 at 03:07 PM

Mike - 3-22-2004 at 09:24 PM

Very cool thread guys. Lee, if this works man, hook a brother up, ok! ;)

You are hooked up

LeeVaris - 3-22-2004 at 10:00 PM

Yo Mike,

Consider yourself hooked up!

Mike - 3-22-2004 at 10:09 PM

Nice Lee....You da man!

:xtreme: :xtreme: :xtreme:

Ronny Andersson - 3-23-2004 at 08:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LeeVaris
So you split the quill shaft in half?


Yes and this is excellent done by you Lee.
Check now if the sides needs to trimmed down a bit, because the risha must be flat like a horn risha.
Be careful so you don't remove more of the white soft part.

I think it can work

LeeVaris - 3-23-2004 at 08:53 AM

OK...

I think these quills can work, though I suspect that the pea<b>rooster</b> quill is not quite as flat as an eagle quill. I do find that I can play with the risha using the hard outer side of the quill for the down stroke. The most difficult part of mastering this risha seems to me to be learning to deal with such a narrow shape overall - the feel is much different as well - very stiff and the tip seems to glide (almost bounce) over the string rather than catch it the way a flexible risha would.

Ronny, does the quill risha gain some flex once it has cured in olive oil or does it get stiffer?

For anyone interested in experimenting I can send you a risha quill pre-split like the one shown here. I still have no idea whether this quill will play at all like a real eagle quill. You'd still have to let it sit in olive oil for 6 months to find out.

Email me with your address if you are interested

Ronny Andersson - 3-23-2004 at 09:04 AM

>Ronny, does the quill risha gain some flex once it has cured in olive oil or does it get stiffer?

The affect the oil does is that the white soft stuff gets dark and very hard. At this stage is your risha to fragile and shall not be played with. After the oil storage is also the risha very flexible and durable.
I'll take a photo and show you how flexible the risha is.
So now time for the oil.

LeeVaris - 3-23-2004 at 09:12 AM

Thanks Ronny !

spyros mesogeia - 3-23-2004 at 10:10 AM

Dear friend Lee,
I am interresting about your quils,please put me on your list
Regards
Spyros

mavrothis - 3-23-2004 at 10:29 AM

This is really cool, nice work guys!

Looking forward to the results!

mav

Mike - 3-23-2004 at 10:43 AM

Hey Lee...are you a professional photographer turned oudist or something?

:D :applause: :D :applause:

Flexibility

Ronny Andersson - 3-23-2004 at 11:57 AM

.

TruePharaoh21 - 3-23-2004 at 12:00 PM

Lee, do you have any more to spare? :rolleyes:

TP21

TruePharaoh21 - 3-23-2004 at 12:02 PM

Ronny, I also have a quick question for you... I have these 2 horn rishas here with me, but they aren't flexible at all. In fact, if I try to even bend it a little, I'm sure it'll break (tension, you know). Also, the sides of the horn risha's are starting to crack, and I haven't even played with them yet. Is there any way to make them more durable and flexible?

TP21

spyros mesogeia - 3-23-2004 at 12:19 PM

Dear friend,
I put my rishas on lemon and olive oil for a period,and after that they are just perfect.....
It takes some time but it worths it
Regards to all
Spyros

TruePharaoh21 - 3-23-2004 at 12:25 PM

Spyros, long time no talk buddy! I hope all is well with you... I finish finals this week, and I'll have lots of time after that for a lot of discussion.

By the way, how long do you soak them for? Do you change the oil periodically, or is it the same oil for the whole time?

You know me, Spyros... I don't know much yet :D

TP21

Ronny Andersson - 3-23-2004 at 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TruePharaoh21
Ronny, I also have a quick question for you... I have these 2 horn rishas here with me, but they aren't flexible at all. In fact, if I try to even bend it a little, I'm sure it'll break (tension, you know). Also, the sides of the horn risha's are starting to crack, and I haven't even played with them yet. Is there any way to make them more durable and flexible?

TP21


Tp21, Which colour do they have?
I think the problem is due to the quality of the horn. The horn quality is very important and some animals produces less good horns. What you can do is to remove the parts that are cracking and also store the risha in oil couple of weeks.

spyros mesogeia - 3-23-2004 at 01:42 PM

Dear friend Peter,
I usually do not change the oil,I only shake the vessel [once or twice each day] where I keep them [on a dark and room temperature place],so the combination lemon-oil to affect all the rishas.....Usually adjust some olive oil If it is necessary.....The olive oil here in Greece is our gold my friend,we are very proud for his quality,and I personally produce from my own trees....;)
Regards to all
Spyros
:wavey:

Farido's Risha

Sidi - 4-2-2004 at 04:12 PM

Hey folks, nice topic you have here. I want to show you some pictures of the king, using a pea<b>rooster</b> feather. He simply tied it to itself to roll up the length, notice the loop.

Also notice the wonderful Jameel Gergis oud he was playing in this performace.

Unlike Lee's rishas, which are very nice BTW, Farido's feather was from the coloured parts of a male bird. Female pea<b>rooster</b>s usually come with* whitish feathers.

*EDIT: Typo fixed

White Peahen (Female):

[img]http://www.keithandkim.com/pictures/quetzal/pea<b>rooster</b>3.jpg[/img]

Here's an Indian Blue peahen (Female) dating an aussie Kookabura...:D



Here's an Indian Blue couple, notice the dull/whitish feathers on the female:

[img]http://members.aol.com/cryptic4/pea<b>rooster</b>s.jpg[/img]

See my next post for more on this...

Here's a close-up of the risha

Sidi - 4-2-2004 at 04:40 PM

Here's a look on that oud:

Sidi - 4-2-2004 at 04:41 PM

Ronny Andersson - 4-2-2004 at 05:32 PM

Sidi, how do you know that he used pea<b>rooster</b>?

> Female pea<b>rooster</b>s usually come in >whitish feathers.

Nothing could be more wrong - this is only a white female. The main colors for pea<b>rooster</b>s are blue and green. Both sexes have the same colors. Why I know is that my father had pea<b>rooster</b>s.

Zulkarnain - 4-2-2004 at 06:40 PM

Hi Ronny:wavey:

Hows the horn risha things? You still have Addario for me right?:D


Regards
**No news on Yaroub?

mavrothis - 4-2-2004 at 07:08 PM

Thanks for the beautiful pictures Sidi. Looks like Lee's definitely on the right track with the pea<b>rooster</b> feathers. I love the oud too of course...it seems all of Gergis' ouds I've seen are one of a kind pieces of art, though I've only seen a few.

Take care,

mav

Zulkarnain - 4-2-2004 at 09:57 PM

Hi

I already received my quill (thanks Lee) Already soaking it in an Olive oil for a week now..


Hope to hear more advice-Thanks all!

Great pictures!

LeeVaris - 4-2-2004 at 10:49 PM

I'm just wondering how you can tell he's using a pea<b>rooster</b> feather risha.

My pea<b>rooster</b> feathers are from the wing (right wing, I believe) - its a dull-orange-brown color! The tail feathers are the ones that are bright blue-green.

In the close-up photo it looks like he's got the end of the feather tied in a loop!

More on Farid's pea<b>rooster</b> rishas:

Sidi - 4-3-2004 at 05:24 PM

Mav and Lee, I'm glad you like the pictures. I'm also happy someone is looking up pea<b>rooster</b> rishas once more.

So how do I know Farid was using a pea<b>rooster</b> risha? Simple, he often used it when my parents went to see him in Egypt. There is also a color picture of him using one, with his famous inlaid oud. I don't have it, but those of you who dig deep enough may be able to find it for us. Properly prepared pea<b>rooster</b> feathers were highly regarded by many oud masters. In addition to pea<b>rooster</b> feathers, Farid also used eagle wing feathers. You can see him play with one in "Lahn El Khouloud".

What type of pea<b>rooster</b> feathers was he using? They come from the coloured tail, and they call them "Sword" feathers. They usually border the "Eye" tail feathers, and extend up to 24 inches in length. I've attached a picture of some below, although Farid's feathers came from better/healthier birds.

** BTW I've updated my previous post with additional pics and info...

Mike - 4-3-2004 at 05:39 PM

Hey Sidi,

Great pictures man. This information is really very interesting, and I too love the picture of Farido's oud! Way to go my man.

Seeya,
Mike

Ronny Andersson - 4-4-2004 at 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sidi
What type of pea<b>rooster</b> feathers was he using? They come from the coloured tail, and they call them "Sword" feathers. They usually border the "Eye" tail feathers, and extend up to 24 inches in length. I've attached a picture of some below, although Farid's feathers came from better/healthier birds.
pics and info...


>What type of pea<b>rooster</b> feathers was he using? They come from the coloured tail, and they call them "Sword" >feathers. They usually border the "Eye" tail feathers, and extend up to 24 inches in length. I've attached a >picture of some below, although Farid's feathers came from better/healthier birds.

Emad, this is interesting because the sword feathers are structural different the wing pens - more soft and flexible. I believe the wing pens are not suitable because of the stiffness and the ¨round¨ shape and the risha needs to be flat. I believe it's still necessary to store the risha in oil because the peafowl tail feathers are soft and fragile. Peafowl feathers are easy to find at several online stores. Feathers from white birds are little bit more expensive.

Ostrich

chuckerbutty - 4-12-2004 at 05:24 AM

There's an interesting article in a journal this month that mentions the use of ostrich feather plectra in medieval lute playing. Given the similarity between the medieval lute and oud, I wonder whether there is any evidence for using ostrich feathers in oud playing as well.

Risha pics

nadir - 4-15-2004 at 01:56 PM

Hey guys, you can see some of my survivor rishas if you want:

http://www.angelfire.com/oz/nadir/oud.html

They aren't shaped for playing though, I've had too many taken from me (by the shipping company :mad: !!!!)

Technically, these are still feathers, but I know that they are rishas... ;)