shivadonga - 11-19-2006 at 08:10 AM
Hi eveybody
I am confused;The hardware keyboards:GemWk1-2-3-2000 and KorgPa50, the software keyboard Mazzika and AS-1 Arabic Scale Converter,all play Exact
Quarter tones(one quarter sharp and flat).
Although i read in Maqamworld that the quarter tones in the string instruments like oud are tuned different depending the maqam we are playing.The
question is...In modern arabic music like george wassouf,wael gasar,latifa,diana haddad..etc the singers and the keyboards tunes perfect quarter tones
and the string instruments like oud and violins sounds not perfect quarter tones? the global,the song doesn´t sound out of tune?
Thanks
jshead - 11-19-2006 at 08:47 AM
"Quarter" tones is a misnomer. A better term would be micro tone. The real interval of micro tones vary.
Arabic modern music instruments tune
shivadonga - 11-20-2006 at 04:35 AM
Thanks jshead but your answer is insufficient and doesn´t clarify my question.I know what are the microtones,it isn,t the question.....
amtaha - 11-20-2006 at 01:22 PM
This is something I'm still trying grasp, but if you look at certain discussions on this forum - especially those concerning maqams - you'd notice
several mentionings of how a certain note might be played differently in different countries. There is also the thing about how certain notes are not
exactly how they are written. This is not limited to quarter tones, but also to regular notes (full tones and semitones.) This much I guess you've
seen on Maqam World.
Your question about things sounds the same is tricky in two ways. First, many subtleties require training to note. Hence all the talk about the music
heritage being aural and not easily documentable. The other thing is that professional musicians program their keyboards. You might be able to do that
yourself on your keyboard. When you do the programming, you switch to pre-setting where notes are set to the exact frequencies where all the
subtleties are made. (I certainly did manage to do this on my old and modest GEM when I had it some good 9 years ago.)
However, I would recall something that has been mentioned a lot is that composers for todays pop music usually use "easy" maqams that do not have must
subtleties in them. Hence the genuine fear that a huge heritage is at stake.
If you're in a university, you can access a paper by Scott Marcus in Asian Music, Spring/Summer Issue of 1993, called "The Interface between Theory
and Practice: Intonation in Arab Music." I think it discusses this issue at length. (And, of course, much more regirously than I can ever manage.)
Two last notes:
1. It is my understanding that Turkish musical notation is more specific as it uses something called "commas" which dictates precisely how the note is
played. This use is not found - as I gather, but could be wrong - in Arab music notation.
2. Look into Al-Halabi's posts on this forum. He has a lot of useful inputs in this regard. There are also other people but their nick names escape
me at the moment. Just search around.
Regards,
Hamid
Brian Prunka - 11-20-2006 at 02:06 PM
This problem also exists in Western music but in a somewhat less extreme way.
When singers (and to a large extent, fretless and wind instruments) play in western music, there are a lot of notes which differ in intonation
compared to the 12-tone equal temperament found on pianos and guitars. In a sense, the singers' intonation is more correct (i.e., natural) than the
arbitrary intonation of the piano/guitar, which is limited physically in the number of notes available.
There are a number of ways people deal with this.
1-the singer adjusts to the instruments. Not always totally satisfying, but not offensively out of tune either.
2-the instruments are adjusted to the singer. Even though the instruments cannot be retuned, the player or composer can write the parts in such a way
that it won't conflict with the singer (range, voicings, etc.). This is complex and requires a lot of experience.
3-letting things be out of tune with each other. Sometimes this is okay; if the singer is perfectly in tune in his/her system and the instrument is
perfectly in tune in its system then our brains somehow can accept the whole. Kind of a gamble, though.
in practice, music will often flow naturally between these options (e.g., the sections where the composer/instrumentalist is making it possible, the
singer will sing normally. where the instrument will conflict, the singer adjusts. etc.)
In Arabic music, this conflict is magnified by the sheer number of notes and variations. But some of the same options exist, for instance:
when a singer is singing, the keyboard can play drone/bass line/ostinato pattern, freeing the singer to sing correctly. the keyboard then can play
instrumental parts. If there is a real oud/violin etc., then either they will have to adjust or the keyboard will sound slightly out of tune.
Obviously the concern about destroying the complex heritage of the music is a real one. However, it's not like everyone's performing the
traditional/classical repertoire on keyboards; for the most part, there's a clear distinction between pop and art music. In the west, rock music
hasn't destroyed the classical tradition. As long as there are serious practitioners of the tradition, no amount of keyboard music is going to
destroy it.
Dear hamid
shivadonga - 11-20-2006 at 02:13 PM
A lot of thanks hamid,excuse my english,is very limited;I am spanish.
I have read your answer and is fantastic,very well explained;I see that you are very studious.
I want to compose arabic modern music,i love it and i have much respect its and i want to do it seriously.
when you say that todays composers pop music usually use easy maqams that do not have must subtleties in them is that is enough plays perfect quarter
tones in my keyboard(i use digital performer software,it will be one quarter tone in pitchbend +2, 2048),it will be accepted,understood, or I should
have to change each quarter tone depending each different maqam.
Regards,Mario
will_oud - 11-20-2006 at 02:20 PM
Could yu possibly use the pitch bender if the microtone needs to be adjusted?
William F. Sparks
amtaha - 11-21-2006 at 10:33 AM
Mario,
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression, but I am a very lazy hobbyist so I'm not that technically inclined. I am sure there are others who would know
more about the exact setup. When I did the programming, it was because I was going through the manual and was able to recognize it was able to do such
things.
Good luck with your endeavors, at any rate. It's a wonderful world.
William,
Definitely. I believe that pitch benders were actually the main way to get things right for sometime and those who practice can certainly learn to use
it capably.
Brian,
It is just now that I understood the role of "tawzee'" - distribution in a very crude translation. The guy who performs must be the guy knowledgeable
about how to bring all the instruments and vocals together and is usually the one handling the song after the composer. Would this be what is called
"Arrangement" in English?
Regards to all,
Hamid
will_oud - 11-21-2006 at 05:30 PM
Thanks Hamid. Mario, the pitch bender is usually a wheel or lever on the left side of the keyboard. What I usually do for Arabic music on keyboards is
to keep the standard western configuration, and use the pitch bender like the metal levers on the kanoun. If you need more explaination on how to do
that, let me know.
William F. Sparks