Mike's Oud Forums

Awesome Oud ribs

Oud_Jammer - 11-27-2006 at 11:11 AM

Could anybody gives a link of how to make these type of ribs Please. I am interested of making them in my new oud project.:bowdown:

Jameel - 11-27-2006 at 02:05 PM

These start as thick ribs, and are carved to the flute shape. Sharpen up your shallow gouge and curved scraper and have at it. Thats a lot of work!

Jason - 11-27-2006 at 06:34 PM

Do you have to use different techniques to bend such thick pieces of wood?

jdowning - 1-23-2007 at 03:41 PM

Although it is possible to heat bend wide ribs to a deep 'scallop' if they have a relatively small longitudinal curvature, it is likely impossible to use that technique for narrow ribs or those with greater longitudinal curvature such as those found on an oud or lute. I, therefore, agree with Jameel that the latter must be hand carved from thick ribs. This would make for a heavier instrument and how this would affect the instrument acoustic response I don't know.
Here is an image of a lute player from the late 16th C playing a lute with heavily scalloped ribs. Were these carved or were they heat bent or just formed that way naturally during the bending process? I don't know.

jdowning - 1-23-2007 at 03:51 PM

For information, here are some images of an early 17th C guitar that I examined at first hand some years ago - an example with vaulted back - where the ribs have been hand carved to a deep flute. My notes and sketches show how the ribs have been shaped.
The guitar is an ornate example by Magno Stegher, Venice dated 1621 in the Charles van Raalte Collection, Dean Castle, Kilmarnock, Scotland.
Certainly a lot of work but a very attractive end result in my opinion. Must try the technique myself some time.

Jameel - 1-23-2007 at 04:10 PM

The master at work

Oudoneit - 1-24-2007 at 12:02 AM

This guy is really helpful: http://www.vihuelademano.com - his name is Alexander Batov. I have one of his vihuelas, and you'll see a picture and soundfile of me further down the page.

Cheers,

Rob

jdowning - 1-24-2007 at 06:49 AM

Lucky man, Rob! Is your vihuela a 'Dias' version?
That copy of the Dias guitar/vihuela by Alexander Batov is certainly one to be admired both from the craftsmanship and acoustical point of view. As far as I know the deeply fluted ribs on this instrument are (or should be?) an example of hot bent ribs as opposed to carved but I don't know as I have never attempted to copy the instrument - however, I may try as I have a copy of the museum drawing.
I did ask Alexander recently if, in his experience, he thought it would be possible to hot bend fluted ribs on an oud rather than to carve the fluting into thick, flat bent ribs like the oud shown in this thread but have not received a response to date. I assume, however, that carving is the only feasible way to produce this degree of fluting given the longitudinal curvature of the oud bowl.

Oudoneit - 1-24-2007 at 11:55 PM

I do know that Alexander, or Sasha as he is known, has not been online for a couple of months. He is overworked doing restoration. But he told me he should be finished with that project quite soon. He is usually very responsive and helpful. I don't know how he makes the ribs..

The Diaz copy is too expensive - in fact, it's not even for sale. I have one in G, 60cms string length. I love it. Great repertoire.

Rob

jdowning - 1-25-2007 at 05:26 AM

Thanks for the update on Alexander - I am not surprised to learn that he is in such demand.
It would not be fair of me to ask how he bends the ribs - I am just curious to know if he thought it would be possible to apply his technique - whatever it is - to making an oud (or lute) with deeply fluted ribs. I think that I know the answer but thought that there was no harm in asking the question.
The vihuelas that I made over 25 years ago (for my own use) are of the flat back style and I made the string spacing a little wider than I now think that it should be - which makes some of the vihuela repertoire a bit hard to handle. Oud like string spacing would be more appropriate I think.

Welcome to the Forums
John

lorod - 3-2-2007 at 12:52 PM

All,

Just for information:

There seems to be a running debate currently whether the back ribs for Chambure vihuela and the Belchior Dias guitar were carved from solid blocks of wood or steam bent. Check out Stephen Barber site for the other side of the story:

http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat14.htm

Louis
Quote:
Originally posted by jdowning
Lucky man, Rob! Is your vihuela a 'Dias' version?
That copy of the Dias guitar/vihuela by Alexander Batov is certainly one to be admired both from the craftsmanship and acoustical point of view. As far as I know the deeply fluted ribs on this instrument are (or should be?) an example of hot bent ribs as opposed to carved but I don't know as I have never attempted to copy the instrument - however, I may try as I have a copy of the museum drawing.
I did ask Alexander recently if, in his experience, he thought it would be possible to hot bend fluted ribs on an oud rather than to carve the fluting into thick, flat bent ribs like the oud shown in this thread but have not received a response to date. I assume, however, that carving is the only feasible way to produce this degree of fluting given the longitudinal curvature of the oud bowl.

jdowning - 3-3-2007 at 08:03 AM

The back ribs of the so called Dias and Chambure instruments are bent not carved (and are most unlikely even to be steam bent). The longitudinal curvature of the ribs of these instruments is relatively shallow compared to those of an oud or lute so bending of their heavily fluted ribs is clearly feasible.

The question I have posed is can fluted ribs of an oud or lute be formed by bending alone? I have not tried making bent fluted ribs (yet) but tend to agree with Jameel when he suggests that the exaggerated fluting of the oud ribs can only be produced by carving extra thick ribs.

Lutes (unlike ouds) that have thin flat wide ribs tend to end up naturally with a relatively shallow fluting - anticlastic bending caused by the residual transverse and longitudinal stresses in a bent rib reaching a state of equilibrium. It is this fluting that we likely see represented in some early paintings of lutes