Mike's Oud Forums

Music School...

Sol - 1-9-2007 at 11:10 AM

I've recently been thinking about heading to a music school after I graduate from high school, which is about a year and half from now. Of course, much discouragment and advice against it has been given from my parents, but I still am going to do it. It's what I want to do with my life.

I don't want to be sitting 30 years from now, wondering how my life became so boring as just a cog in a corporation or a doctor stressing about everything constantly. Of course, many people say I will be wasting my time, as I won't earn money, but that's not a garuantee. I'm willing to risk it.

Of course, my problem is where to do so. I've looked at the Berklee School of Music, a definitely well reputed school, but the problem is, its in America. People of Middle Eastern nationalities are currently finding it quite hard to get accepted for a visa in America, and some of my relatives have had bad expierences. It's not worth it getting entangled in messes with the governments of the United States. Europe only seems slightly more favorable,but its better than nothing. Can anyone reccomend a conservatory or a music school or whatever I can go to in Europe? I'll look at America, but they won't be my first choices.

Also, I only play Oud and I'm teaching myself to play electric guitar(I can play lead guitar quite easily with my background as a oudist, but chords I haven't learned yet). My Oud is my primary instrument. Thus, most music schools probably have no place for me, unless they accept the Oud. So, are there any good music colleges I can go to or are they all closed to me because of this?

SamirCanada - 1-9-2007 at 11:29 AM

Why not go to Kaslik University in Lebanon?
Charbel Rouhana teaches there

teslim - 1-9-2007 at 05:45 PM

I would suggest going to Nasers Shammas School of Oud in Cairo. I took a week long workshop with him in Greece last summer and he is a very patient and demanding teacher, his school is a four year program, You can contact him through his webpage at nasershamma.com.

Sol - 1-9-2007 at 09:55 PM

Well, Lebanon is not the safest country in the Middle East either. Everyone saw how fast the conflict with Israel escalated into total bombardment. Thanks, but not worth it.

I live in Egypt, so I'm trying to make time in my free time to head over to Naseer Shamma's school, but Cairo is huge. It takes forever to get from my section to his section of the city.

I'm thinking more along the lines of an actual university. Naseer Shamma's school is not neccesarily a recognised educational center, is it? I'm not so sure.

fyenix - 1-9-2007 at 11:00 PM

correction:

its not 4 years program. 3 years to those starting as total beginner or know a little and 2 years to those starting in advance level

the school recognised by the opera house cairo and the arabic music institute with proper certificate specializing in teaching the oud or to become a soloist

Sol - 1-9-2007 at 11:37 PM

Yes, I have a friend who just started there and is only studying for two years.

However, is it possible to start while still in school or will I have to treat as a full time school? Again, I'm not so sure.

David Parfitt - 1-10-2007 at 12:58 AM

Hi Sol,

Have you thought about combining music with a more academic subject, so that you have something to fall back on if the music career does not work out for whatever reason? (For example, I see the American University of Cairo offers music as a minor subject.) I would guess the music business is pretty cutthroat and unless you have a lot of talent and perhaps luck too, it could be hard to make a living doing this. If you make the wrong decision now, you could spend your whole life regretting it. Is it possible to talk to people in your city who make a living from music to find out a realistic picture of what it is really like to work in that area? I don't mean to sound negative or patronising, but as a young and idealistic student it is often easy to form a picture of how things are that is far removed from reality. Unfortunately I have learnt this to my cost, so I would urge you to find out all the facts before you choose a particular career path.

Best wishes

David

eliot - 1-10-2007 at 12:59 PM

You might want to consider Istanbul schools - Istanbul Teknik Universitesi has a large conservatory, and several oud teachers, including Mehmet Bitmez. Courses are in both English and Turkish, and there are quite a few other non-Turkish students there.

Sol - 1-11-2007 at 06:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David Parfitt
Hi Sol,

Have you thought about combining music with a more academic subject, so that you have something to fall back on if the music career does not work out for whatever reason? (For example, I see the American University of Cairo offers music as a minor subject.) I would guess the music business is pretty cutthroat and unless you have a lot of talent and perhaps luck too, it could be hard to make a living doing this. If you make the wrong decision now, you could spend your whole life regretting it. Is it possible to talk to people in your city who make a living from music to find out a realistic picture of what it is really like to work in that area? I don't mean to sound negative or patronising, but as a young and idealistic student it is often easy to form a picture of how things are that is far removed from reality. Unfortunately I have learnt this to my cost, so I would urge you to find out all the facts before you choose a particular career path.

Best wishes

David


I've thought of that, but like I said, I'm willing to risk it. Life without a spur of the moment gamble is really quite boring. I started playing Oud pretty much on a whim, and now, I'm loving my instrument and seen what it has opened up for me. I've got a deeper understanding for music in general, more appreciation for classical arabic and world music and discovered I do have a talent for music.

I could minor in it, of course, but unless I have a double major or something, or manage to think of a way to make synthesize my major and minor, it won't really be of much use, will it?

It's not like I'm much better off going with my other strengths. I'm a fairly good writer and painter, so my other choices are going to art school or becoming a journalist or a professional writer or something. Those things don't make much money either. Still, they're exciting.

Ah... who knows? I've heard of people going to colleges and suddenly discovering what their vocation in life truly is. I still have time... I'll keep thinking...

excentrik - 1-12-2007 at 12:24 AM

Habibi Sol- DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The music business is cutthroat and extreemly shallow- but so is every other lucrative business. It's not easy in any field you may choose to pursue-

but never forget that no matter the pressures of society, the most important thing is that you achieve satisfaction in your life; and will definitly secure you and your future family a happier life.

Oud is sultan of Tarab for a reason- Art is the breath we here (on earth) survive with, without it life would be horrendous.

Whichever school you go to, God bless and good luck- pursue your dreams habibi- it will pay off in the end ya zelemeh!

Tarik

tarik

Tommy - 1-14-2007 at 09:23 PM

Hi Sol,

I feel your pain my friend, I resisted urges from my parents to be a doctor and instead went to study classical guitar at university. If it's your passion then ignoring will make you very unhappy, but keep in mind that music, luckily, can be a thing you do on nights and weekends too if you don't want to live with a musicians budget.

I gasped when I saw you were considering Berklee. I have no idea why everyone all of a sudden in the last 10 years thinks it's one of the best-reputed music schools. It's not bad of course, there are some decent teachers there, but the rest of the (dare I say) "serious classical" schools kind of see Berklee as the school that people who couldn't get into a real music college or conservatory go to. A high percentage of applicants are accepted there, so they churn out a ton of musicians yearly, so they make up in numbers of what they lack in quality. That is how so many people know about it. However, if it is your dream to go there and you are talented, I'm sure you can rise above the rest.

If you want to study oud at uni though, I'd recommend staying in the middle east, it's where the traditions of the instrument are most genuine. Wherever you end up though, whether its the ME, UK, or America, learn as much theory as you possibly can before beginning, it will allow you to learn much more thoroughly and quickly once you are there. Good luck!

Sol - 1-15-2007 at 11:38 AM

Well,there's three major reasons I want to go to Berklee.

Firstly, I think they're more modern in outlook and more known than most conservatories. They recognize there are musical styles out there besides European Classical Music, like Jazz and Rock. That's good for me, since I have nothing to do with European Classical Music.

Second reason is that I seriously do not want to stay in the middle east. It's not a fun place to live in, despite what some people on this board may or may not think. I actually have to live here full time, and simple visits don't show the full scope of why I want to leave Egypt as soon as I can.

Finally, honestly, I don't know any reputable music schools besides Berklee. I've heard of Steve Vai before I heard of Berklee, and that indicates that they are something I'd like to consider. If anyone has suggestions of well known music schools I may not be in the know about, I'd really appreiate it.

Anyway, thanks for the luck. I think I'll need it.

Sol - 1-15-2007 at 11:41 AM

Well,there's three major reasons I want to go to Berklee.

Firstly, I think they're more modern in outlook and more known than most conservatories. They recognize there are musical styles out there besides European Classical Music, like Jazz and Rock. That's good for me, since I have nothing to do with European Classical Music.

Second reason is that I seriously do not want to stay in the middle east. It's not a fun place to live in, despite what some people on this board may or may not think. I actually have to live here full time, and simple visits don't show the full scope of why I want to leave Egypt as soon as I can.

Finally, honestly, I don't know any reputable music schools besides Berklee. I've heard of Steve Vai before I heard of Berklee, and that indicates that they are something I'd like to consider. If anyone has suggestions of well known music schools I may not be in the know about, I'd really appreiate it.

Anyway, thanks for the luck. I think I'll need it.

eliot - 1-15-2007 at 12:04 PM

Consider CalArts (California Institute for the Arts) in Los Angeles - in certain fields it has a very good reputation (including jazz); you can double major (something practical and something more for "personal enrichment"), it is less of a Steve-Vai-clone-factory than Berklee, and has some interesting world music classes and performance opportunities.

oudipoet - 1-15-2007 at 12:47 PM

i just have one question.

have u tought about the financial point of the subject?

cos american schools esp berklee are really good but really expensive esp in your case i am not sure i do not wanna lie here but as far as i know international student pay more than american citizen students

+

i do not think you can get a student loan in the states cos you are not an american citizen so i miagine the cost of studying here will cost you a fortune.

are u ready for that?

Sol - 1-16-2007 at 11:09 AM

Well, financially, like I said, not like there's any good schools out there that practically don't cost a fortune.

My family is fairly well off, and we can handle that, but it must be a commitment that I'll gain something out of.

My parents view my music as simply a hobby, not something to be learned as a higher education.

calarts

Tommy - 1-23-2007 at 10:40 PM

I agree with Eliot in saying that Cal Arts has one of the most progressive music schools in terms of openning their studies up to world music. I don't know any of the middle-eastern instrument teachers there, but I know the sitar teacher there well enough to put you in contact with. Maybe he can give you good advice. http://www.calarts.com/schools/music/index.html

UCLA also has a great ethnomusicology program that has world-class teachers on most world instruments including a vast amount of world ensembles, many that focus on middle-eastern music. http://www.ethnomusic.ucla.edu/ . I have a friend who went there who focussed on balkan women's singing and absolutely loved it.

I've heard that there's a smaller music school near san francisco that focuses on near and middle eastern music. It's kind of the middle eastern equivalent to the Ali Akhbar Khan Indian music school up there. I forget the name though...

I'm not sure if Berklee offers oud performance as a major, do they? http://www.berklee.edu/majors/ . I think it's funny that they have a picture of a vocal ensemble where 3 of the 4 people pictured are displaying horrible vocal technique (jutted neck, facial tension, leaning back, etc) haha. I just hope you don't get lost in the crowd there, I would hope that your musical education is as enjoyable as possible. I've found that this means alot of 1-on-1 time with all your teachers. Good luck!

Hagop - 1-24-2007 at 07:13 PM

Sol,

I know exactly where you're coming from and can relate to your situation. I'm currently a college freshman studying finance and banking and I truly dislike it. I'm an avid oudist, guitarist, and percussionist, but never considered choosing music as a career, I was just interested in securing a job that could "guarantee" me a high salary. Im finding, however, that the corporate culture and social envirnoment surrounding such careers lacks the ambiguity, open mindedness, and life experiences that you can acquire by pursuing a more artistic, diverse, or interdisciplinary college major/degree. My advice to you is to pursue what makes you happy, I'm sure you've heard this many times before, but its extremely important to heed. If you want to balance your education, you could pursue a liberal arts major with a music theory/performance minor, there are endless options. Brown University in Rhode Island, although extremely competitive for prospective domestic students, is an excellent school that offers a Middle Eastern ensemble and private oud lessons from university staff.

palestine48 - 1-24-2007 at 09:31 PM

well here is an oppinion from someone who is a businessman and an art lover. Not that anyone asked for it but hopefully it helps.

1. It seems no matter what degree you get in egypt there seems to be too many people and to few jobs so you can be screwed no matter what degree you get unless you leave egypt(please correct me if im wirng)

2. To Tommy, i understand the feeling about parents wanting you to be a doctor. I had similar pressures to be an accountant or lawyer but i hated the feild and i hated working for someone. and as far as that goes, because health care is so screwedd up in the U.S., I hear from doctors that they dont make what they used to and sometimes it feels that it wasnt worth the sacrafice.

3. In todays world getting a degree, working hard is not an entitlement to financial security anymore. there is no guarenteed pensions, cheap healthcare, or employer loyalty (at least this in the U.S.) and the pressure is on us (the younger generations) to work and stack away as much as possible just incase something bad happens and we find out noone is providing for our security.

4. My father did not graduate high school and made a very comfortable living owning a sandwich shop. While it was something he was not proud of, it did provide us a very cusshy lifestyle compared to most standards but he worked way too hard for it. Now I am doing the same, the money isnt the same as it was 15 years ago but it sure is better than working a boring job and listening to orders for what feels like slave pay.


The point I am trying to make is that if money concerns you then you need to be a concious decision between one extreme and the other. I realy dont think there is room for compromise on this one becuase having a job you hate will not bring you riches but will bring you some stability,you will have an average life.

If you notice the people who are very well off love what they do and they live and breath it, they think money all the time and work more and harder than the rest. In the U.S. it seems the most money is in professions that dont require difficult degrees like sales,, real estate, stocks. these are jobs that can be obtained with simple certificates and yet once you establish a clientle you can make more money than any accountant can account for. There is a reason for this in the U.S. , a capitalistic society thrives on selling and buying goods and services and the more that happens the more money is passed around. if thats what you want to do that, then that is a concious choice on your part but having some office job will not entitle you the rewards that come with this, so if u wanna do music then do it if thats your calling.

Also look at this way, you cannot bring money to the grave but the feeling and emotions you leave with people and your playing will last forever and will go with you wherever u go.

As for me i have an accounting degree but i hate the profession I do love business tho and I love the act of making deals and conducting buying and selling transactions. In a perfect world I would love to combine my musical and business passion toegether, maybe run or a record label or produce artists because I do like to do business and I do like to create music. I find enrepenuership is as creative as music. think about it the marketing of your music, the design of the group, finding the name and targeting the people you want to perform for, this is all business as much as it is music.

so now I have a new point, maybe you should take finance to progress your musical interests further so you know how to "sell" yourself and make your musical career sucessful and if not you have somethinbg fall back on.

I know this is long, sorry but i just kept typing as I went.

Sol - 1-25-2007 at 06:17 AM

Thank you for all your comments, guys. It was long but useful to read, palestine48. I really felt anxious about my future, and I still am, but less so. I'm still exploring, but I've definitely decided I will at least Minor in music, if I must.

Actually, I'm only here in Egypt temporarily. You're right, Egypt definitely has rampant unemployment. However, I'm never returning to this country after graduation because I don't need to. I'm not Egyptian.

Berklee offers musical performance, composition and professional music, all of which can be applied to Oud. I'm not sure if they Oud as an instrument, though, which is why I'm looking to look outside of just Berklee.

Thanks for all the American suggestions. I'm definitely going to check them all out. But, I'd really like to know a music school in Europe, espically the UK though, because my mother is afraid to send me to the U.S.A. to study. She thinks they'll throw in Gitmo as soon as I get there or something.

Actually, I was told to pursue whatever made me happy, but when I said music, people told me to get something that actually made money. Rather hypocritical, if you ask me. I mean, it's like saying to a kid, "You can have some candy, but make sure it's sugar, preservative and fat free and nutritious." Now, there's no freakin candy that can actually have all that and still be sweet. It just how it is.

Oh well.

David Parfitt - 1-25-2007 at 08:30 AM

Sol,

Have you considered SOAS (The School of Oriental and African Studies) in the UK? - http://www.soas.ac.uk/ You can study music there and the Iraqi oud player Ahmed Mukhtar gives oud courses I believe. Perhaps a good place to start would be their "World of Music Summer School 2007" - http://www.soas.ac.uk/summermusicschool/index.html

Best wishes

David

fyenix - 1-25-2007 at 09:14 AM

i attended last year wmss at soas - great experience!