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Jamil Gergis (Gamil Georges) ouds

journeyman - 2-13-2004 at 08:26 PM

I posted a request for information on Abdo Dagher and his ouds but have had no replys so far. So, how about Jamil Gergis? I'm trying to educate myself on these older builders. I'd like to find out who they were, how common are their ouds these days etc. (I know that they are hard to find) In fact, if anyone has information on ANY of the earlier oud builders of large or small renown I'd love to hear about it. I have found next to nothing as far as information on these people, although the Arhat family apparently lives in Sao Paulo, Brazil now. Fascinating!

Peace,
Roy

David Parfitt - 2-14-2004 at 12:15 AM

Hi Roy

I would also like to get a lot more detailed information on famous oud builders, as I am hoping to add a section to my website on this subject.

I think that Jamil Gergis may also be known as Gamil Georges - can anyone confirm this? And when you say 'Arhat', do you mean 'Nahat'? (I understand that the Nahat family is now based in Brazil.)

Best wishes

David

Ronny Andersson - 2-14-2004 at 02:02 AM

¨I think that Jamil Gergis may also be known as Gamil Georges ¨

David, I have video of British program showing Anthony Rooley visiting Gamil (Jamil) in his workshop. I'm not impressed; there are several guys working on different parts of the oud.
But as Anthony states- this is how it most have been done during the Renaissance in Europe.
I wonder if the quality is realy related to the numbers of employees working on the instrument?

Let me know if you want a copy.

David Parfitt - 2-14-2004 at 03:13 AM

Hi Ronny

I heard something about a documentary relating to the oud on Channel 4 in the UK - maybe this is the same one? It would be great to get a copy if you think it is worth it.

To be honest I would be really keen to buy one of the two 'Arabesques' booklets from you (or whoever has them now) if that is possible.

Best wishes

David

Al Billings - 2-14-2004 at 06:20 AM

Ronny, there's no particular reason why an oud maker can't have a small team of builders, each making their own part. This is like the German violin workshop tradition and it's a standard method of construction for many modern acoustic instruments. It all depends on the help and the training. A friend of mine owns a Gamil Georges from the 60's. Najarian built a new top for it because the original was cracked. Viken transfered all the inlay and marquetry to the the new top. It's a very good oud, well-built and robust, with a Syrian quality of tone, which is where Georges came from. See photo below. I have a Gamil Georges from the modern shop in Cairo. My teacher spent the better part of an afternoon handpicking it for me. It does not reflect the beauty of Gamil's work, but after some set-up, it sounds very much like it.

Zulkarnain - 2-14-2004 at 06:39 AM

Al

Great Oud you got there! Can you help me find oud like that in Cairo?

Let me know-thanks

journeyman - 2-14-2004 at 07:01 AM

David,
Ooops, yes, I meant Nahat. Thanks for the correction.

Roy

Al Billings - 2-14-2004 at 08:05 AM

You won't find one like that in Cairo anymore--it's 35 years old and Gamil Georges is long dead. That's not my oud anyways--it belongs to a friend. You can go to the Gamil Georges shop in Cairo that's run by his sons. Their ouds will not reflect the craftsmanship this oud does, no birds in the rosettes and lots of shell around the sound holes. My teacher brought one back for me after spending an afternoon picking through dozens of ouds,and I had to do the following: strip the shellac from the top, sand down the neck laminations to make the neck profile smooth, fiddle with the pegs and pumice the bowl and peghead to reduce the excessive gloss it came with. But you know what? it turned into a very nice-sounding Egyptian oud, with plenty of body resonance, robust projection, very low action and a nice raw bite to the upper courses. I'll post some photos and sound samples in a week or so. I think you just have to go and let your ears tell you what is good and be prepared to do a little work. This oud cost approx. $300.00 US in Cairo. Is it a Nahat? it is not, but it's a very good-sounding and playing oud that won't embarrass you in front of anyone, and I'm not afraid to take it anywhere because it's very sturdy. Good hunting in Cairo.

David Parfitt - 2-14-2004 at 08:13 AM

Hi Al

It would be a pleasure to add some of your ouds to the 'Oud Gallery' on my website if you want to send me some pics.

Best wishes

David

Ronny Andersson - 2-14-2004 at 09:58 AM

I heard something about a documentary relating to the oud on Channel 4 in the UK - maybe this is the same one? It would be great to get a copy if you think it is worth it.

This film has more than 15 years....is probably something else on Channel 4.
Is worth a copy. I make one for you.

To be honest I would be really keen to buy one of the two 'Arabesques' booklets from you (or whoever has them now) if that is possible.

No problem but you need patience with me...

TruePharaoh21 - 2-19-2004 at 11:56 AM

The original Gamil Georges was a fantastic oud maker. I believe it was el-Qasabji who told one of my relatives that he preferred Georges' ouds. I've recently played on one of the ouds of Georges, and to be truthful, it was very sweet sounding and represented what an Egyptian oud should sound like very well. So, in short, if you want a Georges' oud, try to find Gamil's. I've heard his sons aren't as... hmm, particular (?) as he is.

Have fun looking!

TP21

samzayed - 2-19-2004 at 03:23 PM

Is it true that Farid Al Attrach's oud (the one he's usually photographed with later in his life) was made by Gamil Georges?

samzayed - 2-20-2004 at 12:02 AM

this is the pic of Farid's oud. Is it by Gamils Georges?

Adel - 2-28-2004 at 09:59 AM

Hi sam,
This oud was made by Georges Nahat.
Adel

Ronny Andersson - 2-28-2004 at 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Adel
Hi sam,
This oud was made by Georges Nahat.
Adel

Adel, do you have any clue where this oud is now?

Adel - 2-29-2004 at 12:25 AM

Ronny,
I have been told that this oud is in the hand of his family in Syria, but I am not sure, I will let you know in a few months as we have been invited by his family.
Adel

George

Adel - 2-29-2004 at 12:34 AM

George, Jamil Georges son is an old man now, I visited him this time, he does not have any of his father ouds, and the workshop is run by few guys who are putting parts of the oud together, the end result is not great.
I have seen many bad Jamil Georges the father, it seems to me most of the good ouds are out of Egypt.
Adel

Re Abdo Dagher

Adel - 2-29-2004 at 11:37 AM

Abdo Dagher never made an oud himself, however, he had people working for him in his workshop in Cairo, and they produced some great ouds, I have one of them and my friend Anouar has few of them.
His workshop was colsed down few years ago, and he moved it to Tanta, lately he has stoped making ouds.
I have not seen any Abdo Dagher this time in Cairo.
You asked about Jamil Georgy the father, he was one of the great masters of oud making, if fact, for me he his work as great as Nahat, his ouds were very elegant, beautiful rich tone, warm, I love his ouds, some of his work which I have seen are breathtaking.
He came from Aleppo (Syria)and started his workshop in 1906 in Mohammed Ali Street in Cairo.
Most great oud players bought from him including Qasabjy, Sunbaty, Farid El Atrash, Farid Ghosn......
He used to spend up to 6 months making an oud.
I looked for his ouds this time, but his great ouds has been sold and they are out of Egypt, what left of his ouds is in very bad condition.
I am lucky to have few of his ouds.
Salamat,
Adel

Ronny Andersson - 2-29-2004 at 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Adel
Ronny,
I have been told that this oud is in the hand of his family in Syria, but I am not sure, I will let you know in a few months as we have been invited by his family.
Adel

Thanks Adel I'm looking forward to it.

Hi,

Sidi - 2-29-2004 at 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronny Andersson

Quote:

Originally posted by Adel
Hi sam,
This oud was made by Georges Nahat.
Adel

Adel, do you have any clue where this oud is now?

As far as I know, that specific oud is still with Farid's nephew Faisal. The last time we saw it, his father Fouad had it along with all of Farid's most famous ouds. But that was a long time ago.

Here's a picture of my father holding that wonderful instrument:

[img]http://www.fairydise.net/ffrm/AHassani&FouadAtrche1s.jpg[/img]
with Fouad and the King's Oud

This could very well be the most recent photo of that oud. BTW it also happens to be the one Mike skillfully used to decorate this great site.

Sorry Mike...couldn't resist...

-Sidi

TruePharaoh21 - 3-1-2004 at 12:28 AM

Sidi, any idea what the design is on the back? It seems to be completely random from the angle that we have. Have you heard of what the overall picture of it is supposed to look like, or should we assume it's random sadaf all over the place?

TP21

Adel - 3-3-2004 at 03:04 AM

TruePharaoh,
Do you have any photo's of the Jamil Georgy which you have mentioned?
You asked about Farid oud, it does have Sadaf and bone on the back.
Salamat,
Adel

Ronny Andersson - 3-3-2004 at 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Adel
TruePharaoh,
Do you have any photo's of the Jamil Georgy which you have mentioned?
You asked about Farid oud, it does have Sadaf and bone on the back.
Salamat,
Adel

Adel, what's your opinion about ouds with inlays on the bowl? I'm thinking about ouds like Farid's with literally nothing left of the wood.

Adel - 3-3-2004 at 02:07 PM

Ronny,
Too much inlay will kill the sound, also it does not allow the wood to breath,
It makes the oud too heavy and the sound is kept inside, but they are nice to look at if they are done in a perfect way.

Adel

Ronny Andersson - 3-13-2004 at 02:22 PM

Here an oud with a similiar pattern of Farid's oud.

Ronny Andersson - 3-13-2004 at 02:27 PM

Ok here we go.

Jameel - 3-13-2004 at 04:43 PM

Wow, Ronny. That is some beautiful work. I prefer a simpler oud, but who woudln't want to have an oud like that??

Are these ouds that you own? Are these new or old ouds??

Jameel

bluesyOud - 3-13-2004 at 05:00 PM

Wow what an oud!!!!!!

)

Ronny Andersson - 3-13-2004 at 11:18 PM

Jameel, The 1st is an oud made by Ali Khalife. The 2nd one is made by his son Muwaffaq. I don't know when the ouds were made but the one by Ali most have some years now since the maker is dead.
I hope to buy the one by Muwaffaq but nothing is 100% still. The Ali is probably not for sell anymore. I love ouds with this type of decorations. I attach photos of some more details of the ouds. Enjoy

Ronny Andersson - 3-13-2004 at 11:20 PM

Ronny Andersson - 3-13-2004 at 11:22 PM

Ronny Andersson - 3-16-2004 at 10:44 AM

detail of the bowl

TruePharaoh21 - 3-16-2004 at 11:07 AM

Ronny, do you own all of these? If not, where are you finding this excellent pictures?

TP21

bluesyOud - 3-16-2004 at 11:14 AM

Ronny
all this have an effect on the price you pay.
And the price you pay has an effect on
the sound of the instrument.
So is this wonderful picture payed with
the instruments 's tone?
If it isn't ,then this is perfect!!!
:wavey:

Ronny Andersson - 3-16-2004 at 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TruePharaoh21
Ronny, do you own all of these? If not, where are you finding this excellent pictures?

TP21

Tp I'm real sorry but the guy who have them want to be ¨unknown for a wider public¨ so I can't give inf.
My dream is to have one of them so I cross my fingers...this fancy thing and a Bashir...

Ronny Andersson - 3-16-2004 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluesyOud
Ronny
all this have an effect on the price you pay.
And the price you pay has an effect on
the sound of the instrument.
So is this wonderful picture payed with
the instruments 's tone?
If it isn't ,then this is perfect!!!
:wavey:

Right the sound is offcourse inferior a plane correct built oudbowl. But just look at Farid who played on this type of oud. Both ouds have long string length of 63cm.

Ronny Andersson - 3-16-2004 at 11:45 AM

ok a last one.

TruePharaoh21 - 3-19-2004 at 04:14 PM

Adel Salameh sent me this picture of a Jamil Georgy oud... enjoy!

TP21

a Syrian for the eye

Ronny Andersson - 3-26-2004 at 07:36 AM

Ronny Andersson - 3-26-2004 at 07:37 AM

.

nadir - 3-26-2004 at 09:11 AM

BEAUTIFUL!!!!

sa2a - 11-24-2007 at 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidi

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronny Andersson

Quote:

Originally posted by Adel
Hi sam,
This oud was made by Georges Nahat.
Adel

Adel, do you have any clue where this oud is now?

-Sidi

mr.sidi please upload the picture again please
thanks

Sidi - 11-25-2007 at 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sa2amr.sidi please upload the picture again please
thanks

Hey there, thanks for asking. I'll gladly repost it ASAP.

God Bless

sa2a - 11-25-2007 at 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidi

Quote:

Originally posted by sa2amr.sidi please upload the picture again please
thanks

Hey there, thanks for asking. I'll gladly repost it ASAP.

God Bless

please Quickly
thanks

sa2a - 11-26-2007 at 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidi

Quote:

Originally posted by sa2amr.sidi please upload the picture again please
thanks

Hey there, thanks for asking. I'll gladly repost it ASAP.

God Bless

where is the picture please mr.sidi

sa2a - 12-15-2007 at 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidi

Quote:

Originally posted by sa2amr.sidi please upload the picture again please
thanks

Hey there, thanks for asking. I'll gladly repost it ASAP.

God Bless

where is the picture please mr.sidi

Oud Freak - 12-16-2007 at 02:13 AM

Hi, I don't know if Farid Atrache used to have Jamil Gergis ouds, I only heard (if I am wrong please correct me) that he used to have ouds made by Ramez Khoury (lebanese in lebanon, but weird anyway). Ramez Khoury passed away 5 or 6 years ago I believe. He used to make ouds which sounded good for the Farid Atrache years. His ouds also contained a lot of decorations, mosaic, nacre and all of these.

Dr. Oud - 12-18-2007 at 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Parfitt
.... 'Nahat'? (I understand that the Nahat family is now based in Brazil.)...

The last of the Nahat family (George Abdo) to make ouds passed in Sao Paolo, Brazil sometime in the past 2-3 years. The last known oud built was listed as built in 1984.

Dr. Oud - 12-18-2007 at 02:02 PM

This is a 195o's era Gamil George restored a while ago -

Sidi - 12-19-2007 at 02:39 PM

Hey Sa2a,

Sorry to keep you waiting, I was actually very ill over the last few days. I found the picture and I'll rescan it for you soon.

Take care,

S.M

P.S: You really are a nagger

sa2a - 12-27-2007 at 04:16 PM

farid and the oud

sa2a - 12-27-2007 at 04:17 PM

farid and the oud

sa2a - 12-27-2007 at 04:24 PM

farid and the oud

sa2a - 1-3-2008 at 12:42 PM

mr.sidi please upload the picture again

thanks

Finally able to do this:

Sidi - 1-4-2008 at 02:38 PM

Here's a rescan of the image.

Also, there's a closeup of the oud specially prepared for you Mr. Sa2a.

sa2a - 1-5-2008 at 09:41 AM

thanksssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss mr.sidi
:applause:

thanks
thanks thanks
thanks thanks thanks
thanks thanks thanks thanks
thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks
thanks thanks thanks thanks
thanks thanks thanks
thanks thanks
thanks

Sidi - 1-8-2008 at 03:41 AM

Thanks Sa2a, I appreciate your kind reply...and I apologize once more for making you wait for so long.

Enjoy

sa2a - 1-10-2008 at 01:23 PM

to mr.sidi : picture of faisal elatrache and farid elatrache oud

Sidi - 1-12-2008 at 04:06 AM

Thanks sa2a, I appreciate every picture we can get of that very special oud. Farid himself called it "a timeless artistic treasure" and one can only nod in agreement.

BTW I'm truly glad Faisal is doing so well.

sa2a - 1-16-2008 at 10:46 AM

fouad elatrache ' faisal elatrache and farid elatrache oud

Edward Powell - 12-30-2008 at 05:01 AM

Fascinating thread!

Melbourne - 1-21-2009 at 06:57 AM

Found this youtube clip of Abadi Aljohar playing and Gamil Girgis oud that appears to be from the same period to Farid's oud shown above.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=RPPYNAHcWoc&feature=related