Arabic, english, spanish, italian speaking video under sunny Jerez at Al Andalus.
The oudist is fm Chili, he was born in front of South Pacific ocean and he "brings the mediterranean tone" to the group...
I love the andalousian architecture which it's conceptualized to provide pleasure for all senses. It seems that even fruit trees were consciously
grown at hand's height only.excentrik - 3-7-2007 at 09:16 PM
If you liked that- you should definitely check out Radio Tarifa- in my opinion, they are the most amazing andalusian/sephardi/arabi/flamenco band
there is. They are in Spain and I know the label they are on is pretty big, so it shouldn't be too hard to find-
"Temporal" is a good one, but the second one, "Rumba Argelina" is pure genius...
I hope to point out something, and I dont mean to attack any person of any background,,, please read to the end.
I think calling music Sephardic, or Klezmer,or.... linking it to the Jewish faith is Artificial.... I dont think there is such a thing.
Jewish people just like Muslim and Christian people lived in many parts of the world and their music and culture is a product of that nations.
An Iraqi Jew/ Muslim/ Christian plays Iraqi music,
An Egyptian Jew/ Muslim/ Christian willl play Egyptian music
An American Jew/ Muslim/ Christian will play American Music
you got the idea....
there is no such thing as christian music (Rock music if it is in the US and Arabic music if it is in Syria with religous text placed) or islamic
music either, it depends on the culture of that nation...
same as Andalucian music that was created at the Arabic/ Islamic civilization ira in Iberia, belongs to that civilization, if Jews happen to live
there included in that civilization so be it (It actually shows the tolerance of the Arabic/islamic civilization towards people of different faith).
and they happed to be called sephardic jews..... The music is Andalucian music (If you put Hebrew words in it it doesnt make it sephardic)
Since the creation of an artificial nation for the jews in Palestine about 60 years ago, there was a crave for an artificial music identity pertains
to a faith,,,.... that does not exist.
Can somebody name a Jewish instrument
Can somebody name a christian instrument
Can somebody name an Islamic instrument
And finally,
Can Somebody name an Israeli instrument...Marina - 3-8-2007 at 06:28 AM
Quote:
And finaly, Can Somebody name an Jewish instrument...
Jew's harph?
oudplayer - 3-8-2007 at 06:45 AM
Rams horn
shofar lol used by jews in music
orginated by jewswill_oud - 3-8-2007 at 07:42 AM
King David harp is an Israeli instrument.
William F. Sparkskkeys - 3-8-2007 at 08:51 AM
1) The jewish harp sounds like a music instrument but it is a coil that sounds like vibration..
2) same thing goes for the shofar. please see the link
These instrument mentioned are there to prove my point... they are of a religous not cultural values.
4) I think a Yemeni jew should feel proud to play the oud because that is his culture... he just happen to be a jewish on that land.
5) Wouldn't you think it will be wiered if Marcel Khalifa claims that his music is Christian Maronite music...akram - 3-8-2007 at 12:12 PM
mashala mashala
very good i liked them
thank you
akramexcentrik - 3-8-2007 at 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by kkeys
And finally,
Can Somebody name an Israeli instrument...
How about War?
tarikJohn Erlich - 3-8-2007 at 01:36 PM
OK kkeys...you're getting political here (in a way that clearly violates the spirit of this Forum) and your comments belie obvious political biases.
Maybe I should follow the examples of Marina and others and not take you seriously. But you are talking about my favorite topic: Jewish music.
The first thing you need to remember when discussing Jews and Judaism, especially in comparison to Christianity/Christians and Islam/Muslims, is that
Judaism is not a proselytizing faith. Judaism has not spread among different races and ethnicities to the extent that Christianity and Islam have.
The simplest explanation for this is that Jews don’t believe that we are doing someone a favor by converting them to Judaism.
The next thing you need to remember is that saying that something is “Jewish” is not necessarily to say that it is connected to the Jewish
religion, because Jewish peoplehood is such that even hardcore atheists can--and many do-- have a strong Jewish identification.
Whether or not it is appropriate to describe music as “Jewish” depends on the context in which the music is composed and performed and on the
content of the music.
It is true that we frequently encounter music that is described as “Jewish” that should not be. An example is the “Judeo-Arabe” recording
collections produced in France. These are North African singers of music in the Arabic language who happened to be Jewish. Describing the music of
Cheikh Raymond, Luc Cherki, Blond Blond, Rene Perez, Raoul Journo, Line Monty, Alice Fitoussi, Lili Boniche, Reinette L’Oranaise, Habiba Msika, El
Kahloaoui Tounsi, Maurice El Medioni, etc. as “Jewish” is not only questionable since it lacks specific Jewish form or content, but is arguably
racist.
However, there is typically nothing nefarious (and most certainly not “Zionist”) about this. Our local Algerian-Jewish DJ, “Cheb-i-Sabah”
(Serge ElBaz) who sells these recordings as “Judeo-Arabic” music is militantly anti-Zionist. It’s simply a marketing ploy, a way to sell
records, that’s all.
On the other hand, there are plenty of genres of music which are appropriately labeled “Jewish” because of lyrics in specifically Jewish languages
(Hebrew, Jewish Aramaic, Yiddish, Ladino, Judeo-Arabic, etc.), content (reference to specifically Jewish religious texts, history or persons), or
context (composed/performed by Jews for Jews).
Klezmer is Jewish music because it was composed/performed by Jews mostly for Jews, and when sung, was always sung in Yiddish, a specifically Jewish
language different for the spoken language of their non-Jewish neighbors.
Sephardic music is Jewish for precisely the same reasons (the language is called Ladino, Judezmo, Haketia, etc. and is different from Spanish).
In the Arab World, Jewish music was (past tense, since Jews [about 875,000] have been ethnically cleansed from the entire Arab World, other than
Casablanca in Morocco [5,000 Jews left] and Jerba in Tunisia [1,200 Jews left]) mostly religious music. It is Jewish because it was sung in Jewish
languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Judeo-Arabic, etc.) and the texts were about Jewish religious beliefs. (This reflects that fact that Jews were
historically better integrated into Arab societies than European societies, at least until about the mid-19th Century.) Of course, Jews in the Arab
and Muslim world have been creating this music for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. I have a huge collection of this music and would be happy to
provide samples to anyone.
Similarly, it would be technically incorrect and arguably racist to describe Marcel Khalife’s music (at least all of his music that I’ve ever
heard) as “Maronite Christian” just because that’s his confessional community or heritage. However, it would be just as ridiculous to claim
that there is no such thing as Maronite Christian music. Music that contains Maronite Christian liturgy and/or is in a Maronite language (i.e., the
Maronite dialect of Syriac) is “Maronite Christian music.” You can sample some here: http://www.amazon.com/Chant-Traditionnel-Maronite/dp/B000027O5X/ref...
I apologize if my political comments above offend anyone. I want to be clear that my advocacy on behalf of Jews from Arab countries is not
anti-Palestinian. My point is simply that the Palestinians are not the only group in the Near East / North Africa with legitimate grievances. If
every oppressed group insisted on airing their grievances on this Forum, the Forum would collapse.
Peace,
Johnexcentrik - 3-8-2007 at 01:53 PM
John,
You are a very manipulative speaker. I commend you for that, but- I am in total agreement with kkeys.
Also, your point always seems to be that the Palestinians aren't the only ones in the Arab world with grievances.
TarikAmos - 3-8-2007 at 02:18 PM
hey guys,
i rarely chime on this stuff, but i just want to say that i think we should keep the politics out of the forum. these clips were very beautiful, and i
was happy to see them. we as artists and aficionados do ourselves a disservice by bickering in a forum meant for appreciation of our beloved
instrument. i am sure there are thousands of forums intended for this type of conversation. let's keep it about the music.
amoszalzal - 3-8-2007 at 02:21 PM
no border, no nation, no deportation, no justice, no peace.
(Nothing to do, just a diversion)John Erlich - 3-8-2007 at 03:07 PM
Tarik,
If you mean that my arguments are cogent and persuasive, thank you! As far as my other point, if I say it often, it's because it needs to be said
often.
Thanks, Amos.
Peace,
JohnALAMI - 3-8-2007 at 03:17 PM
Hi John,
Let me start by saying that I usually read with great pleasure your posts and I hold a great esteem for your knowledge, your musical thoughts and your
humour.
I don't believe that the forum will collapse if sometimes (and I agree that they should be very rare)we face the fact that we are not musicians living
in a parallel dimension with no regard to our origins, cultures, problems ...and "grievances". We can talk to each others frankly and with respect, it
is a place where people are supposed to be open to "ethnic" cultures (and I am using a word "a la mode" that I don't like).
I am personally a "hardcore atheist" with a very strong muslim identification, add to this maronite and orthodox identifications all associated with
my being an arab (and consequently semite), I am from where I come from, culturally and socially speaking and this true regardless of spiritual
beliefs(or their lack). This is not a jewish particularity, it is simply human.
You accused kkeys comments of being "politically biased" ,and you're probably right, and I am sure that YOU are aware that he is reacting to a more
general strong, legitimate and justified, feeling of "cultural occupation" and it should be taken seriously and not just because you are sensible to
jewish music topic, and I respect (and learned from) what you wrote on the musical side of your post.
And sorry John, you commited exactly what you accused kkeys and tarik of doing by inserting (and in a very smart way) the insinuation : "have been
ethnically cleansed"...
John, were we living on the same planet since 1948 ?
I really don't want to go into this or being accused of being a "negationniste" (and as a french citizien I support the law that takes these guys to
trial and jail and I would like to see it extended to all massacre makers including arabs and israelis). I really want to know if you seriously
believe in what you wrote on this subject.
And yes I still prefer that guys like you could rule Israel and make that guys like kkeys could have a real state... a country
And yes I would like to hear clips of what you consider being jewish music and what is not with a detailed explanation of the differences.
And finally, it was a good laugh reading : "Jews don’t believe that we are doing someone a favor by converting them to Judaism". It is funny on
every "Level" of reading.
Friendly
alami
PS. Zalzal sould be promoted from chief of intelligence service to UN secretary generalkkeys - 3-8-2007 at 04:58 PM
John,
Let me start by saying I enjoy your comments. and thank you for taking the time to participate.
((The first thing you need to remember when discussing Jews and Judaism, especially in comparison to Christianity/Christians and Islam/Muslims, is
that Judaism is not a proselytizing faith. Judaism has not spread among different races and ethnicities to the extent that Christianity and Islam
have)).
As far I know, I have met arabic, turkish, persian, american, russian, german, french, african, moroccan, north african, even filippino, and asian
jews... so it is spread amoung all ethnicities.
((The simplest explanation for this is that Jews don’t believe that we are doing someone a favor by converting them to Judaism.))
- And yes this statement is wiered
((The next thing you need to remember is that saying that something is “Jewish” is not necessarily to say that it is connected to the Jewish
religion, because Jewish peoplehood is such that even hardcore atheists can--and many do-- have a strong Jewish identification.))
- I agree...
((Whether or not it is appropriate to describe music as “Jewish” depends on the context in which the music is composed and performed and on the
content of the music.))
- If a music composed on an arabic maqam, and rhythm, by a jewish composer, then it is arabic music composed by a jewish composer. (unless he came up
with a jewish maqam and thythm not known to anybody)
((It is true that we frequently encounter music that is described as “Jewish” that should not be. An example is the “Judeo-Arabe” recording
collections produced in France. These are North African singers of music in the Arabic language who happened to be Jewish. Describing the music of
Cheikh Raymond, Luc Cherki, Blond Blond, Rene Perez, Raoul Journo, Line Monty, Alice Fitoussi, Lili Boniche, Reinette L’Oranaise, Habiba Msika, El
Kahloaoui Tounsi, Maurice El Medioni, etc. as “Jewish” is not only questionable since it lacks specific Jewish form or content, but is arguably
racist.))
-And that was the reason for my post in the first place
((On the other hand, there are plenty of genres of music which are appropriately labeled “Jewish” because of lyrics in specifically Jewish
languages (Hebrew, Jewish Aramaic, Yiddish, Ladino, Judeo-Arabic, etc.), content (reference to specifically Jewish religious texts, history or
persons), or context (composed/performed by Jews for Jews).))
- Musically speaking, If an arab made a RAP song and put arabic text in it, and played it for the arabs.... it is still RAP music not arabic.
((Klezmer is Jewish music because it was composed/performed by Jews mostly for Jews, and when sung, was always sung in Yiddish, a specifically Jewish
language different for the spoken language of their non-Jewish neighbors.))
-Klezmer music is southern european/ gypsy music that was lables as Klezmer. for me it sounds the same as hungarian/ romanian/ bulgarian gypsy
music..(With Yedish lyrics)
((In the Arab World, Jewish music was (past tense, since Jews [about 875,000] have been ethnically cleansed from the entire Arab World.))
Howcome there are palestinian/ syrian/ iraqi/ yemeni/Tunisian/ egyptian, turkish, iranian jews ????????
((Similarly, it would be technically incorrect and arguably racist to describe Marcel Khalife’s music (at least all of his music that I’ve ever
heard) as “Maronite Christian” .))
- And that is my friend my point, how I see jewish people calling the andalucian music sephardic,.... and so on.
- My last question is why isn't a Russian Jew feels proud of being russian and embrace his Russian culture...
- And why isn't the Syrian Jew feels proud of his culture like the christian syrian does...
I think I painfully know the Answer
Zalzal, thank you for the clip, it is beautiful to be all together in peace..... playing music...oudplayer - 3-8-2007 at 07:42 PM
hey guys
I just want to add a few things here. I read top to bottom so i am up to daye with everyone here and what they wrote.
((In the Arab World, Jewish music was (past tense, since Jews [about 875,000] have been ethnically cleansed from the entire Arab World.))
Howcome there are palestinian/ syrian/ iraqi/ yemeni/Tunisian/ egyptian, turkish, iranian jews ????????
Bra look 98% of all jews no longer live in arab lands. I am not sure if u read but about 3 weeks ago or about the jews of yemen town of sad'dia
that states get out of yr town and leave everythgin in yr house and flee away if not you will die . now they are still in sanna capital of yemen in
a hotel and they cant go back yet or who know id they have stuff waiting fo them back home. The interveiw stated by a yemeni muslim we dont see the
yahood as yahood we see them as yemeni and thats it .
so guys why cant we call be nice to each other pleaseeeeeee
about the whole why isn't the Syrian Jew feels proud of his culture like the christian syrian does
.
you make me laugh every time I read it bc oviscly you never been to a syrian community b4 they are so rich in customs and there kids do not forget
where they come from . go to brooklyn New york or deal new jersey or ect there are many towns like this.
If none of this make sence to you read it again and understadn where i am coming from. To this day it is not safe for any adani or yemeni jews to go
back to yemen I know people that tried and then got send rigth back on the plane.
I hope you take soemthing out of this
thx sammyal-Halabi - 3-8-2007 at 09:45 PM
This discussion of music has unfortunately deteriorated into a lot of simplistic and misleading statements. When rich and complicated music cultures
are boiled down to banal definitions and when history is ignored we get simple and easy answers, but not very good ones. To take only one example: the
statement that Sephardi music is essentially Spanish Andalusian music, not anything distinctly Jewish. To say this is to assume that the Jews who left
Spain took with them a fixed repertoire of songs that they preserved over the centuries without change, and that they either added nothing to it or
whatever they added to it over time remained in the exact same mold of the original Spanish repertoire. But things didn’t happen that way. Most of
the Sephardi songs that came down to us were actually composed after the expulsion from Spain. Sephardi Jews living in Salonica, Izmir, Istanbul,
Sarajevo and other places composed hundreds of new songs in the following centuries. These songs often dealt with places and events connected with the
new settings of these Jews. They began to use Arab-Turkish makams, including those with microtonal intervals that were not part of the musical system
used in Spain. The lyrics included many new words that their Spanish language adopted from Turkish, Greek, and other languages of their surroundings.
People in Spain of the fifteenth century would have found many of these songs very different in style and intonation from their music, and even their
lyrics would not have been fully comprehensible because of all the foreign words and allusions.
Something new came into being that was not a simple carryover of fifteenth-century Spanish music into another region, but rather a blend of Spanish
and new musical elements that acquired a character of its own. This musical creation was the work of Jews, written in a language distinct to Jews, and
performed by Jewish musicians for Jewish audiences. That is why it is commonly identified, including by scholars, as Jewish. To deny the development
of a new repertoire among Sephardi Jews or the Jewish role in creating it runs against the facts. And the idea that a composition would be Jewish only
if it is in a distinctly Jewish maqam and rhythm not derived from any other music is also an interesting one. The Arabs in the medieval period adopted
many maqams from Persian music – the Persian names of so many modes are in use until today (Yegah, Rast, Segah, Chahargah, Shahnaz, and so on). Does
that mean that compositions by Arabs in these maqams are really Persian music?
I will stop here, although there are various other problematic statements. What could have been an interesting discussion of the interplay of music,
culture, history, and identity has ended up producing more heat than light.John Erlich - 3-8-2007 at 10:05 PM
All,
Nearly everyone who posts on this Forum has good information and ideas to share and I, too, appreciate you for that. I just wish we could be a bit
better about following the ground rules that make this Forum such a pleasure and a refuge.
My replies to selected comments:
“And sorry John, you commited exactly what you accused kkeys and tarik of doing by inserting (and in a very smart way) the insinuation : "have been
ethnically cleansed"... John, were we living on the same planet since 1948 ?” (Alami)
Alami, my point in inserting this in a “manipulative way” was to show how even one passing sentence on a controversial subject can cause a lot of
rancor on this Forum. The strong, emotional responses have proved my point. I don’t consider this topic appropriate for an Oud Forum and refuse to
violate this ground rule any more. Anyone who is interested in discussing the topic of Jews from Arab countries any further can send me a U2U and we
can exchange private e-mails.
“As far I know, I have met arabic, turkish, persian, american, russian, german, french, african, moroccan, north african, even filippino, and asian
jews... so it is spread amoung all ethnicities” (kkeys)
Kkeys, the vast majority of Jews fall into a few basic ethnic/cultural groups: Ashkenazi (Central & Eastern European), Sephardi (Jews with roots
in Spain and immediate ancestry mostly from Turkey, Greece and the Balkans, Holland, and Morocco), and Mizrahi (Jews with roots in Arab and Muslim
countries—the term is modern). There are other small communities who don’t fit into there 3 main groups (some Italian Jews, Ethiopian Jews,
etc.). People from outside these groups are few in number and are typically converts. The San Francisco Bay Area (California, USA) has HUGE numbers
of Filipinos and East Asians. The typical synagogue in this area has no more than a couple of Asian converts among the congregation. The exception
proves the rule. I am happy to recommend some good books on the subject (start with: http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Cultural-Tapestry-International-Tradit... ). Contrast with Islam: This religion began among Arabs; today 80% of Muslims are non-Arabs. Islam is a proselytizing religion. When a Christian
or Muslim converts someone to his religion he is “saving” them; when a Jew converts someone to his religion, he is making him liable to follow 613
laws instead of just 7.
“How come there are palestinian/ syrian/ iraqi/ yemeni/Tunisian/ egyptian, turkish, iranian jews ?????” (kkeys)
I spoke of the ARAB world. Turkey (26,000 Jews) and Iran (35,000 Jews) are not Arab countries, and each has many more Jews today than the entire Arab
world (about 7,000 Jews). Arab countries other than Morocco and Tunisia have fewer than 100 Jews each. In the early 20th Century, Baghdad had more
Jews than any other ethnic or religious group. Today, there are virtually none and very, very few Iraqis under the age of 60 have ever met a Jew.
“Musically speaking, If an arab made a RAP song and put arabic text in it, and played it for the arabs.... it is still RAP music not arabic.”
(kkeys)
Ah! This is the heart of our disagreement! I totally disagree with you. As far as I’m concerned, rap in the Arabic language is legitimately
“Arabic music” (that is if any rap can be considered “music” rather than poetry). Even rap music by an Arab-American in English with a target
audience of non-Arabs could be legitimately considered “Arab” music if the subject matter is personal to the experience and culture of Arabs
(e.g., rap about personal experiences as Palestinians). I am not a professional ethnomusicologist, but I’ll bet my belief reflects the predominant
thinking among the professional academics. Your comment seems to me to reflect an untenable thesis that the “authentic” music of a culture is not
subject to change. This is observably false.
“Klezmer music is southern european/ gypsy music that was lables as Klezmer. for me it sounds the same as hungarian/ romanian/ bulgarian gypsy
music..(With Yedish lyrics).” (kkeys)
I simply disagree and find this statement rather bigoted. I don’t think that Klezmer music sounds the same as the other music listed. The musics
you list naturally have much in common, coming from the same region of the world. However, even if it were musically identical (and I doubt and
serious expert on Klezmer and Balkan musics would agree with you on that), the Yiddish lyrics are sufficient to define the music as “Jewish.”
“My last question is why isn't a Russian Jew feels proud of being russian and embrace his Russian culture...
- And why isn't the Syrian Jew feels proud of his culture like the christian syrian does...
I think I painfully know the Answer” (kkeys)
Jews from Russia and Syria are generally very proud of and generally do embrace their Russian and Syrian cultures. To the extent that Jews don’t
identify with the culture of the country their ancestors came from, you are incidentally correct that the answer is painful. In many times and
places—though not all times and places—to ask why the Jews don’t have a strong identity with the national culture is like asking a Arab from the
Galilee why he doesn’t feel proud of his culture as an “Israeli.”
Sammy:
I want to thank you for 2 things:
1) Thank you for speaking up (as a Yemenite Jew) on behalf of Jews from Arab countries in this thread;
2) Thank you also for showing sevlanut and NOT raising this highly contentious issue often whenever Israel/Palestine politics comes up in this
Forum.
Anyone who wants to discuss the political issues further via e-mail or share some music samples is welcome to U2U me.
And, finally, are there no Israelis or other Jews in this Forum who want to denounce me for referring to the Palestinians as “oppressed” and
having “legitimate grievances”??!!
Peace,
Udi JohnSamirCanada - 3-8-2007 at 10:05 PM
Maybe you can shed some light onto this Halabi, As Iam going to take this discution back towards a more musical direction.
I read in a musical encyclopedia redacted in part by Dr. Scott Marcus on maronite music possesing its own maqam. Its called the maronite maqam in the
encyclopedia.
the link following is an example of a chant in this described maqam.
I met Lautaro Rosas about 20 years ago in a jazz seminar led by Chuck Israels and Thad Jones. He used to play the guitar with singer Maria del Mar
Bonet.
We all have changed a lot!SamirCanada - 3-9-2007 at 06:00 AM
Thanks Alamial-Halabi - 3-9-2007 at 08:49 AM
Samir, I don’t know the origins of the chant Ana al-umm al-hazina, but it might be a more recent composition influenced by Arab music. I am
suggesting this because (1) its melody follows the scale of Hijaz, which Hage tells us was rarely used in traditional Maronite music, and (2) the
melodic range of the song is an octave or almost an octave, while most traditional Maronite chants tend to be limited in melodic range to a fourth or
fifth.
Alami, thanks for the reference to the article by Louis Hage. He is the leading authority in the world on Maronite music. An expanded version of this
article appeared in the encyclopedia edited by Scott Marcus and others. According to Hage, the modal system of Maronite chant is distinct from the
Arab maqam system and also from the old system of eight modes (octoechos) found in Byzantine church music. It is an archaic system, with three basic
melodic modes based on short scales of usually a fourth or a fifth, each with its particular melodic patterns and formulas. The Maronite mode
therefore tends to be limited to one tetrachord or pentachord, whereas in Arab music maqams are made up of several tetrachords/pentachords strung
together to cover a range of up to two octaves. The narrow range explains the simple (and beautiful) melodies of Maronite chants. The Maronite tonal
system uses some microtones, although according to Hage notes that are slightly flattened are not really lowered by a quarter tone as in Arab music.John Erlich - 3-9-2007 at 10:04 AM
Samir & Al-Halabi,
I'm no expert on Eastern Christian chant, but I'm guessing al-Halabi might be right about "Ana Al-Umm Al-Hazina" being more recent. My understanding
is that the Syriac churches (Maronite, Syrian Orthodox, Assyrian, Chaldean, etc.) traditionally use Syriac in their liturgy, but have been evolving in
the direction using more Arabic in recent decades (kind of like the Catholic Church evolving from Latin Mass to vernacular).
I noticed one site which posts the whole album "Good Friday Eastern Sacred Songs" including Fairuz' version of this song and other Arabic-language
chants: http://www.marmarita.com/music/easter/main.html
Also, I assume that I wasn't the only one to notice the Fairuz version of "Kamat Mariyam" included in the sountrack of "Before Night Falls." It was
extremely jarring to me to hear an Eastern Christian chant among the sensuous, rocking Cuban music! http://www.amazon.com/Before-Night-Falls-Carter-Burwell/dp/B000059Q... (see/hear #14) Weird, huh? I want to know how Carter Burwell found the Fairuz recording and why he used it!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shlama lakhun,
Udi Johnkkeys - 3-9-2007 at 01:37 PM
“Musically speaking, If an arab made a RAP song and put arabic text in it, and played it for the arabs.... it is still RAP music not arabic.”
(kkeys)
((((Ah! This is the heart of our disagreement! I totally disagree with you. As far as I’m concerned, rap in the Arabic language is legitimately
“Arabic music” I am not a professional ethnomusicologist, but I’ll bet my belief reflects the predominant thinking among the professional
academics. Your comment seems to me to reflect an untenable thesis that the “authentic” music of a culture is not subject to change. This is
observably false.)))
I have a simpler explanation:
When a nation doesn't find the tools to establish a culture they steal somebody elses...... and claim it for themselves.
Isnt it wiered that I don't have this problem with any other group of people .......SamirCanada - 3-9-2007 at 02:52 PM
Thanks To Alami, al Halabi and John Erlich for your contributions.
I found this wonderfull site in french of the orchestra of father michel tarabay. Its called sawt el atiq.
There is more info on maronite chants there.al-Halabi - 3-9-2007 at 04:16 PM
Kkeys,
There is a large literature on Arab music, including numerous treatises in Arabic going as far back as the ninth century. If you read these works you
will find that premodern Arab scholars on music, like the great al-Farabi, consistently began their discussion of music with a tribute to ancient
Greek music, which they adopted (or “stole”) as the basis of their own scientific understanding of the tonal and modal system. They discussed the
Pythagorean intervals and ratios, and the construction of tetrachords, using analytical methods that they openly acknowledged were Greek. The word
musiqa in Arabic was “stolen” from Greek. In the course of the 9th and 10th centuries the Arabs adopted new styles, microtones, ornamentations,
and modes from Persian music. There was at the time a big cultural debate between those who wanted to hold on to the older Arabic styles (foremost
among them the great oud player Ishaq al-Mawsili) and those who welcomed the innovations (led by the Abbasid prince Ibn al-Mahdi). The latter group
prevailed and Arab music was transformed through what you call “stealing” of somebody else’s culture. It is then that the microtonal intervals
entered Arab music and were added to the Pythagorean intervals, and Persian theory came prevail. In Ottoman times the Arabs adopted new maqams that
were developed by composers around the sultan’s court in Istanbul. They also adopted the sama’i, which was developed in Istanbul and spread to the
Arab provinces, to be played as part of Arab music until today. The process of “stealing” continued into the twentieth century, when Arabs adopted
western instruments, western notation, large orchestras, conservatories, new theories, and other aspects of music originating in European cultures.
Did the Arabs adopt so much from the Greeks, Persians, Turks, and Europeans because of cultural poverty, which led them to “steal” from others
“and claim it for themselves”? Or was this process an indication of their ability to adapt, innovate, and create new syntheses by combining older
elements with foreign features that appealed to them? Are the Arabs the group with which you have a problem because of cultural stealing?
I am wondering if your comments are really serious because they are so breathtakingly uniformed. Why don’t you read some medieval Arabic writings on
music - you will encounter an open-minded, curious, analytical, and tolerant approach from which you might learn something.al-Halabi - 3-9-2007 at 04:27 PM
Samir,
Thanks for the link. Beautiful chants on the two featured CDs, although the pieces are too short. As the notes point out, this Maronite religious
music is so embedded in the folk traditions of Lebanon it is hard to separate the two.excentrik - 3-9-2007 at 06:53 PM
al-Halabi-
Your understanding of the historical narratives surrounding Classical Arabic music is well appreciated and should be taken seriously. There is no
pure peoples or cultures on earth. period. many thousands of years of cross-trading and synthesis have occured and rendered (especially in the Near
East, Asia, and Africa) this "root" non-existent. You are right.
However, and I think kkeys was trying to point out, that a Colonial State such as Israel is just that- a synthesis of many cultures, peoples,
religions, ethnicities and languages- Just look at Modern Standard Hebrew. Words in English, Yiddish, Arabic, German, Polish, Russian, Romanian and
Ancient Hebrew are used throughout the Language.
What he (I think) was pointing out (perhaps a little emotionally) is that a Colonial State built not on a specific people but some sort of fabricated
identity (just like the U.S.- and don't forget- Zionism was not a Jewish movement- it was a secular colonial movement supported by very rich diamond
traders and British lords) does not have a concrete, specific set of cultural institutions that can be justifiably called "thiers." For instance:
Israeli Music is either Pop (Kylie Minogue meets Ofra Haza), Klezmer, Arabic, Persian, Iraqi, Ethiopian, Reggae (very popular these days out there),
etc. There never has and never will be an "Israeli" music such as Arabic or Persian or Native American for that matter- it is a 60 year old Colonial
settler state on Palestinian land- Not an ancient cultural heritage.
But also people tend to forget that Israeli music and Jewish music are two completely different things. One is rooted in traditions and an ancient,
beautiful cultural and religious history (which I will not define- that is up to our Jewish Brothers and Sisters here- That is for for their ownership
only) and the other is based on a capitalist industry that mirrors what we have in the U.S.- much like the state itself.
I dont think the debate was intended to be any deeper than this- that was all. John, al-Halabi and everyone else- We do have a great thing here- but
some things will never be avoidable. Zionists believe that Palestine is Israel and We Know that our land has been usurped and stolen. That probably
won't change for a while so in an effort to close this one peacefully- lets just call this one quits, but please John- dont get all "doomsday" on us
everytime a Palestinian gets sensitive, the Forum will NOT dissipate dude- and kkeys- be careful to not generalize a people- attack zionism not the
Jews- for the Latter are and will always be our closest relatives on this planet. aight?
Peace-
tarikLintfree - 3-10-2007 at 02:12 AM
This is what I think, for what it is worth. We sometimes forget that the music of the instrument that is the center of this forum
has no political identity. The instrument itself is wood and metal and plastic. It comes from individuals just as the music comes from individuals.
Tones and pitches have no allegiance, no tribe and no political preference. We borrow them from a world of mathematics and physics and add creative
energy. Maqams, scales, no matter where they are from came originally from the mathematical world and some would say that they came there from God,
that they are a gift from The Creator to us. We just organize and name things so we can deal with them, communicate. This sounds simplistic but I
think it is true.ALAMI - 3-10-2007 at 02:21 AM
Al Halabi was right about the fact that "more heat than light" was produced, and I believe it is no more the case, so in an effort to produce some
"light", just a general thought:
I believe that cultural ownership does not (and should not) exist on civilizations level, a cultural, ethnic or ideological group cannot claim
intellectual property rights as an individual can.
Cultural "stealing" is a blessing as it makes both cultures richer, the Roman Empire culture was nothing but a cultural hub of all the its nations, it
ended up transformed by the local culture of one of its smallest occupied territories (christianity). Arabs were a colonial force in Spain and were
also the trigger and vector to Europe cultural renewal. I am not defending colonialism or occupation in any way, all I am saying is that a military
victory could also lead to a cultural "defeat", and this kind of "defeat" makes two winners.
Mahmoud Darwish (great palestinian poet) has very interesting views on this subject.
Music could be the seed for a laic multicultural, multiethnical society (this is what I wish for my country and all countries).
we can start by being opposed to musical apartheid.al-Halabi - 3-10-2007 at 06:29 AM
Tarik,
Since you addressed your comments to me I will respond briefly. If this is what you think kkeys meant to say I can’t see how it improves on anything
else he has said so far on this thread. Okay, the Zionists stole Palestine, Israel is a colonial state, Israel does not and will not have an authentic
culture, Jews have appropriated the music of others and called it their own, etc. etc. So now what? In what way does denigrating or dismissing other
cultures help understand anything? How does spouting angry opinions that lack factual basis or intellectual reflection advance any discussion on this
forum? I commented a couple of times on some problematic statements, sticking to issues of music and giving particulars that I was hoping would help
move the discussion away from the empty generalities being thrown about. There has been no specific response or challenge to any of the
counter-arguments, only more of the same polemical pronouncements. I give up.
For you, as you point out, the main underlying issue here is the usurping of Palestine by the Zionists. Now that the point has been made you suggest
closing the discussion, while making comments about our great forum, goodwill, and your fraternity with Jews. How ironic. You have to wonder what was
gained from having an open exchange about music and culture aborted in this way.David Parfitt - 3-10-2007 at 08:49 AM
Al-Halabi,
I've really enjoyed reading your contributions to this thread, and I'm sure a lot of other forum members have too. I hope you are not deflected from
sharing your vast knowledge of Middle Eastern music with us because of the ignorant and immature comments of a small minority on here.
Best wishes
Davidal-Halabi - 3-10-2007 at 10:10 AM
David,
Thanks, I appreciate it. Unfortunately, it doesn't take much to mess up a discussion and turn one off.
Maybe you can bring in Mr. T.Arto - 3-10-2007 at 10:51 AM
I have enjoyed this thread a lot - not because of (unfortunately maybe unavoidable) tensions at times, but because of being able to read thoughts
about music and culture in general from wise people. If these wise people have disagreements between themselves - great, it is always
thought-provoking to read about these, as long as the ideas are competing and not their exponents.
I have learned a lot of this thread. I don´t know too much about Andalusian music and about its differences compared to Eastern music (like
microintervals). I do not know too much about Jews and their part in this large canvas of Mediterranean/Middle Eastern music that we all love. And I
haven´t known positively anything at all about the beautiful Maronite Christian chants before this thread.
Collectively, this oud forum with all its members is a really vast source of knowledge. Thanks for you all. And please continue.
ArtoDavid Parfitt - 3-10-2007 at 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by al-Halabi
David,
Thanks, I appreciate it. Unfortunately, it doesn't take much to mess up a discussion and turn one off.
Maybe you can bring in Mr. T.
Funny you should mention that, as I know the big guy has been taking a keen interest in this discussion:
"Listen up, fools! I'm gettin real tired of all yo politics jibber-jabber. Don't make me mad! You don't wanna see the T mad!"
SamirCanada - 3-10-2007 at 12:22 PM
I also would like to extend my gratitude to you al Halabi.
I really apreciate the extensive wealth of knowlege you have to share and hopefully your not completly discouraged to participate. I tried to bring
the conversation on another tegeant hoping that maybe including other people of the middle east it would open the discution so that it becomes a topic
for all musics of the middle eastern people. When it is only centred on the conflict of the holly land well people get sucked in emotionaly.
KKeys Tarik John
I think its enough. We should keep an open mind when discussing because thats the reason for dialogue in the first place. The other option is a gun
and well off course if your here and discussing with eachother then you obviously didnt chose that way to go about it.
But for now I think Tarik has a right idea to lay off the conflict in the holy land in the toppics. And carry the discution in private if you wish.
Iam not saying this with authority because I have none of course but it would be bothering to many Iam sure if this kept going.John Erlich - 3-10-2007 at 10:34 PM
"Please John- don't get all "doomsday" on us everytime a Palestinian gets sensitive, the Forum will NOT dissipate dude."
Tarik,
It's not about Palestinians being sensitive, it's about Forum members being openly nasty, picking fights, and/or making bigoted comments. Maybe it is
a bit "doomsday" to talk about this Forum "dissipating," but, from my perspective, if discussions like this scare away good contributors, and it gets
so nasty that I can't stand participating myself, for me it might as well have dissipated.
I know plenty of people (Berbers, a Laz from Turkey, etc.) who make the same agruments as Kkeys, but about Arabic culture--that it's nothing more than
an "amalgamam" of cultural data "stolen" from others and not a real culture. I have argued with these people and have alienated many of them by
similarly trying to point out the prejudices that are getting in the way of their understanding culture and its development.
If an Algerian Amazigh (Berber) tells me that, "The only real Arabs are two tribes in northern Yemen" (I'm not making this up), would you prefer me to
defend your Arab identity or let it go without commenting, chalking it up to Berbers "getting sensitive"?
"Just look at Modern Standard Hebrew. Words in English, Yiddish, Arabic, German, Polish, Russian, Romanian and Ancient Hebrew are used throughout the
Language. " Tarik: Have you ever studied the philology of any language?
Peace,
Udi Johnexcentrik - 3-11-2007 at 12:45 PM
OK- Al-Halabi misunderstood me. But I still respect your position.
John, yes. I study language. Have YOU? (Ben Yehuda ring a bell?)
Samir, Thank you for hearing my intentions.
Everyone else, sorry about all this- it wasn't meant to be so "controversial" but you know how it goes.
"and it gets so nasty that I can't stand participating myself, for me it might as well have dissipated."
-John Erlich
So sorry John , it must suck for you when the "noble savage" begins to assert his
identity as an indigenous human being.
tarikwill_oud - 3-11-2007 at 12:55 PM
Okay... I don't like to take sides here, but enough already!
William F. Sparkszalzal - 3-11-2007 at 01:45 PM
It is not bothering a discussion on identity.
Identity is a big box which we continuously fill and empty with anything we want. Identity is evolutive in time. And identity becomes dangerous when
it is dictated by public authorities)
There should be no fear to listen people exposing their identity views.
I have learned a lot reading all contibutions here. Thanks to all.
The thing is that it can become neverending.
One thing which we all should aim at is to contribute at our humble level to finish the unjustice as no justice no peace. Think about that, justice
and human rights......and olive oil....to smooth the angles..
Anyhow may be someone could close this thread commenting on this cd.
(I did not give up...A la tercera va la vencida)
http://www.kalan.com/english/scripts/album/dispalbum.asp?id=3870
I loved the oud taqsims we can listen at almost all the begginings of the samples, turkish style taqsims fm he 1920th which seemed to me very arabic
style in fact. (Here the words turkish and arabic are just to situate us and make it understandable, otherwise there is no nationalistic sense).
I felt vertige listening in 2007 sounds of oud which in fact were being played hundred years before, and which sounded very modern to me at the same
time.al-Halabi - 3-12-2007 at 05:56 AM
Zalzal,
I agree, these are nice introductory taksims performed with an expressive, unpretentious style. I have somewhere the name of the oud player, from
older recordings I have of Algazi’s songs. Algazi is an example of the more open boundaries of music a century ago. He was a cantor in the synagogue
but also performed non-religious songs. On this recording he sings Turkish classical and semi-classical songs in Turkish, Jewish religious hymns in
Hebrew, and Sephardi songs in Judeo-Spanish. This phenomenon was common also in the Muslim sphere at the time, when religious shaykhs performed both
religious songs and non-religious qasidas and mawwals (some examples on the CD Archives de la musique arabe I). Sabri Moudallal in Aleppo is a
contemporary example of this easy movement between religious and secular - he is a muezzin but also sings non-religious folk and classical songs (his
CD Chants sacrés et profanes de Syrie includes a wasla of secular music and a wasla of religious hymns). People trained in chanting the Qur’an and
singing religious hymns acquired good professional skills in maqam improvisation, diction, meter, and prosody, so they were well positioned to excel
in performing non-religious music as well. Umm Kulthum acquired her early musical training in the mosque setting and it served her well throughout her
career. The climate of our time may not be as favorable for this type of fluid movement between the religious and the “profane” as it once was.
, it must suck for you when the "noble savage" begins to assert his
identity as an indigenous human being.