Mike's Oud Forums

Label translation help.

Jonathan - 3-14-2007 at 07:58 AM

Somebody sent me pictures of an old oud, and I need some help with the translation of the label.

The English letters show little more than "chukian."

Looking at the Armenian portion, I am guessing that the first name is Hagop (I can see H, A, and 3 more letters). Then, if you look at the English version, while the H and the A are not visible, you can sort of see a G O P. And, I think the last name is something like Kichukian/Kuchukian. The first letter is a K, the second an i, and the third is a mystery.

There is also writing there in the Arabic/Ottoman script that I can not read.

Sadly, no date, but in the upper left, the Armenian word "tiv", which would generally be followed by the year.
Any thoughts?

There's a cool repair label on there from Hadi Usta.

Multi Kulti - 3-14-2007 at 08:22 AM

Thank you very much Jonathan for posting the pictures.
I would like to know who this maker is.

Someone translated the Ottoman Script and said something about Ottoman Period RUMI or Hicmi...around 1902-1905.Im not sure.

I must say that the resonance of the face of this oud is something new to me...and it is light like a feather.

I post 2 pics of the whole oud.


Nikos

Multi Kulti - 3-14-2007 at 08:23 AM

back of the oud

al-Halabi - 3-14-2007 at 08:24 AM

Your guesses are correct. The first line in Ottoman Turkish says "Agop Kuchukian mamulatinden," literally, "from the works of Agop Kuchukian." (Kuchuk means small in Turkish.)

On the top right, across from "tiv", is the word "numero," which in Turkish would refer to the serial number of the instrument rather than a date.

The address in Turkish is incomplete, but what is legible reads "... oglu Odalar Kapisi numero 2."

At the end of the address line in Turkish is the date, in which the first three digits 132 are clearly legible and the last digit is torn off or smudged. The Islamic year 1320 would be 1902-03. So the oud could be dated without knowing the last digit as being from the time period 1320-1329, or 1902-1911. There is also what looks like a Gregorian year at the end of the address in Armenian, but it's hard for me to read it. Maybe another photo focusing on that area at the bottom right might help arrive at the exact date. All you need is the last digit.

zalzal - 3-14-2007 at 08:28 AM

The arabic letters i guess are

(To be taken as a first approach, not at all sure)

Agup Kujaian M s u la t n d

The other line

Ugli ?? tah l r qi yu s Kr 25 and later 132

May be the hegira year (we are nowadays on 142 something)

Hope more qualified people can contribute better...

(THIS CAME AT THE SAME TIME AS AL HALABI, SO FOLLOW AL HALABI MUCH BETTER THAN ME)

SamirCanada - 3-14-2007 at 08:37 AM

really nice oud.
Do you know what was repaired?

al-Halabi - 3-14-2007 at 08:59 AM

Zalzal, the orthography of Ottoman Turkish can be a bit tricky if you are coming to it from Arabic. The Turks adopted the Arabic script although it was ill-suited for their language, which has a number of sounds that cannot be accurately represented with Arabic characters or that are read differently from the way you might think based on Arabic usage. But you made a good try.

Jonathan - 3-14-2007 at 11:12 AM

Very cool. Thank you all.

maran - 3-14-2007 at 04:48 PM

the third letter is the same as the sixth letter - hiun, the 34th letter of the alphabet. when next to ini like that it gives you the "ü" sound in turkish.

the other armenian part at the bottom is hard to make out, but most likely has to do with the address. the first word looks like "halic" (golden horn), the last one looks like it could be "kapı'e" (door). can you take another picture without the shadows on that part?

Multi Kulti - 3-14-2007 at 05:04 PM

Ok here are some other fotos

Multi Kulti - 3-14-2007 at 05:08 PM

one more

al-Halabi - 3-14-2007 at 05:20 PM

These larger photos show no Gregorian year, which I initially thought the patches on the right bottom might be. At least the clearer Armenian may help complete the address, for whatever that is worth.
Maran, the address in Turkish reads "...oglu Odalar Kapisi numero 2" (Gate of the ...oglu Rooms, no. 2). The rest is torn off. How does the address read in Armenian?

maran - 3-14-2007 at 06:26 PM

much better now. the armenian reads "halici oglu odalar kapisi 2". halicioglu is an area of istanbul, near haskoy i think.

btw if anyone missed it there was a very good program on bbc-turkish a while back on armenian contributions to ottoman music, with commentary by the musicologist bulent aksoy on hampartzum limonciyan and his "hampartzum nota", tatyos efendi, artaki candan, nigogos aga, and bimen sen, among others. it also has some udi hrant taksims playing in the background at one point:

Geçmisten günümüze Ermeni bestekârlar
("the armenian composers from past to present")

al-Halabi - 3-14-2007 at 08:28 PM

Thanks, Maran. I was curious about the word missing before oglu in the Turkish address. This solves the puzzle. The area of Halicioglu used to have an Armenian population and Armenian churches (I visited it briefly once on the way to Eyup across the water). Many Jews and Greeks also used to live in that general area of Istanbul (in Haskoy, Balat, and Fener). Inf fact, at the time this oud was made the non-Muslim residents and foreigners made up about 55% of the population of Istanbul, which is an amazing proportion for what was the capital of an Islamic empire.

Multi Kulti - 3-15-2007 at 01:40 AM

Thank you very much guys for the help...next step to find a luthier to restore it (work on the ribs and on the pegs-pegbox).



Nikos