Mike's Oud Forums

Risha Grip

Brian Prunka - 3-26-2007 at 08:16 PM

Hey Everyone,

One of the great things about playing with Simon has been watching his hands close up on a regular basis. Recently something struck me about the way he holds the risha that I had never examined very carefully before.

Basically, he keeps the flat side of the risha flush against the palm of his hand. I noticed in my own playing that the risha tends to drift towards my fingers, often flush against the last finger joint and consequently perpendicular (or nearly) to my palm. Having made more of a conscious effort to keep it flat, I notice better articulation (especially at faster speeds), more control, less tension, and more economical wrist motion. I don't know if this will be helpful to everyone (I'm certainly not going to say it's the "right" or best way to play), but it sure is helping me.

In case my descriptions aren't clear, I took pictures.

Brian Prunka - 3-26-2007 at 08:18 PM

Yes:

Brian Prunka - 3-26-2007 at 08:19 PM

No:

Brian Prunka - 3-26-2007 at 08:20 PM

Yes:

Brian Prunka - 3-26-2007 at 08:21 PM

no:

Brian Prunka - 3-26-2007 at 08:23 PM

yes

Brian Prunka - 3-26-2007 at 08:24 PM

nope:

jwold - 3-27-2007 at 12:27 PM

So Brian,

Your photos are excellent. This is exactly what I was looking for. I have a question though.

It seems that with this grip, with the tip of the risha poking out almost like a screwdriver (or an extended thumbnail), that you have to really bend your wrist in order to get a good angle of attack?

Just wondering...thanks

Greg - 3-27-2007 at 05:22 PM

Thanks for going to the trouble of providing photographs, Brian. That is very helpful.

Regards,

Greg

Jameel - 3-27-2007 at 05:30 PM

Very nice Brian. Thanks for taking the time. Any tips on Simon's technique is always welcome. It's amazing how small changes can make a huge difference. I keep an oud at work, and just playing short 5 minutes bursts sometimes makes a real difference. I also noticed that if you can force yourself to calm down and relax, technique improves dramatically. For novice casual players like myself this can really improve playing.

Brian Prunka - 3-27-2007 at 06:47 PM

Jwold,

Actually, exactly the opposite is true. the way that the tip pokes out makes it possible to play with an almost perfectly straight wrist, with virtually no bend (as Simon in fact plays). This allows, among other things, more variety of attacks and more effective upstrokes.
It takes a little getting used to, but you should find that a nearly straight wrist gives you a perfect angle of attack with this grip.
I should note though, that this assumes your arm is coming around the front of the oud (directly in line with the neck) and not around the top. This can be difficult for people with short arms and large ouds.

amtaha - 3-28-2007 at 01:33 AM

Mr. Prunka,

Thank you for a wonderful advice.

As you've said, it is feeling a it awkward at the moment, but I think it's just a matter of time before getting used to. But an interesting thing is that this hold is making tremolos on thicker strings more accessible. For a moment, too, I've actually noticed that I momentarily lost all "woosh"es marring my picking. As with everything else, further practice will show.

The thing that keeps me wondering, however, is the amount of risha that is loose, i.e. beyond the left edge of the thumb. I don't seem to manage to get "control" when I make as it should be (more correctly, as I see it with most players), and when I play, I unconciously start making that loose bit shorter. I've also noticed that I do this with different stiffness.

Thanks again,
Hamid

abusin - 3-28-2007 at 02:31 AM

Thanks a million Brian,

This does really improve playing, and much easier and faster attack :xtreme::applause:

PS: what risha type used on photos, just curious as it looks fab,

best regards

Awad

jwold - 3-28-2007 at 08:51 AM

I will try coming around lower down. I messed about with it a bit this morning before heading off to work and found it really slowed me down...though I am a complete novice at this coming from a guitar/banjo playing background.

I think I was coming more in from the top of the oud, and with the risha extending out from my thumb, I couldn't hit the strings without my wrist being completely bent.

It sounds like the attack of the risha (sounds like a sci-fi film, eh?) with a straight wrist is more parallell to the strings as opposed to say a 45 angle...does that make sense?

Brian if you can, I'd like to see a photo from "your eyes" perspective looking down over the top as though you were playing to check out that wrist angle..though I think I understand what you are saying.
I think the oud I have is somewhat large, but I have never been accused of having short arms...dragging those knuckles on the ground has always been a problem...

Brian Prunka - 3-28-2007 at 09:06 AM

Amtaha,
You've indirectly hit on another benefit of this grip. With very slight adjustments of your thumb and index finger, you can vary the stiffness and length of the risha tip. I know what you're talking about, and I don't think it's entirely undesirable, but is one way of playing that can b e useful.
However, keeping the risha longer and focusing wrist oscillation and forearm rotation may help you get control of that aspect of playing. It's hard to describe, but I think if you practice it, you'll see what I'm getting at.

Abusin,
It's just a plastic risha. I don't know how to describe it. It's not the soft rubbery yissi type, or the pyramid type. I spent a lot of time shaping it.

Jwold,
The risha is still coming in at an angle. It's hard to take pictures while holding the oud, but I'll try. This grip does allow you to vary the angle quite a bit, though. Incidentally, I'm planning a trip out to Portland soon, maybe we can hang out.

palestine48 - 3-28-2007 at 08:03 PM

i am no expert and far less experienced than brian. but the way my teacher taught me to hold seems very similar to what brian is discovering.

but instead of going through the step by step picture procress that brian is showing. the most effeciant way i am finding is to make a cirlce out of your thumb an index finger like as in your making the hand symble for the term "ok".

the risha should be in between the the conections of the finger tips as if its preventing them from touching. then wrap the rest of the fingers around the risha.

p.s. my teacher says if someone were to sneak up on you and slip the rish from your fingers it should easily come out. if the person is facing resistance then you are gripping the risha too tight.

Risha Video

LeeVaris - 3-30-2007 at 08:34 PM

I posted a short video of Afif Taian's right hand. Afif has a great percussive attack with a solid rythm. This video focuses on his picking hand from a few angles so you can see the angle of attack.

http://www.varis.com/Oud/Afif-risha.mov



:xtreme:

Another One

LeeVaris - 3-30-2007 at 08:44 PM

I just realized that this last movie was from only one angle so here's another one from a different angle:

http://www.varis.com/Oud/Risha-2.mov

Brian Prunka - 4-10-2007 at 11:56 AM

Hey Lee, that's really interesting. As far as I can see, Afif is holding the risha in the way I described, but unlike Simon his wrist has a pretty extreme angle.
This is why I stated before that I'm not saying anything about the "right" or best way to play . . . I've seen too many oud players get amazing results with techniques that are very different. There are some great players who swear by having the risha go between the 3rd and 4th finger.
I'm curious about how long Afif's arms are and if it has anything to do with his wrist angle.

Lysander - 9-14-2014 at 12:01 PM

Bumping this - Brian, the photos seem to have gone. Do you have them to hand [if you pardon the pun?]

Brian Prunka - 9-14-2014 at 02:34 PM

I think Mike purged old photos from the forum a couple of years back . . . I will see if I can find them, if not I will take new ones

luan - 9-14-2014 at 04:39 PM

Wow, interesting discovery. Hope you can find the original pictures :)

Brian Prunka - 9-14-2014 at 04:51 PM

I might just do new pics anyway . . . I'm sure I've refined the grip since the original post in 2007

Lysander - 9-15-2014 at 09:43 AM

Would be excellent, Brian. Very much looking forward to it.

majnuunNavid - 9-20-2014 at 07:42 PM

Looking forward to seeing these. :applause:

Moe5021 - 5-26-2015 at 04:10 PM

No updated pics? :(

Brian Prunka - 5-27-2015 at 09:20 AM

Here are some photos, I hope it is helpful

Brian Prunka - 5-27-2015 at 09:22 AM

a few more, different angles

Brian Prunka - 5-27-2015 at 09:23 AM

last one:

Brian Prunka - 5-27-2015 at 09:32 AM

By the way, I'll note a refinement since the original post. Rather than having the risha actually parallel to the palm of the hand, it is at a slight angle. Not perpendicular, as I had made the mistake when starting out, but just slightly off axis from flat. If you start with the risha flat, then let it angle slightly with the thumb, that's about right.
The finger tips of the 2nd and 3rd fingers touch the edge of the risha, giving an additional bit of control without a tight grip. As noted upthread . . . the grip should be loose, not tight.

I had a discussion with Simon about this and he said it is also important to realize the the grip will change slightly depending on what kind of musical effect you are going for; sometimes you want a lighter looser effect and sometimes you want a very tight precise effect. So don't get too locked into one way of playing.

hans - 5-29-2015 at 02:51 AM

Wow, that looks totally different from what i do

SufianSaeed - 5-29-2015 at 04:06 AM

thats what i did at the very start of oud playing but i was told many times not to do this , personally it worked great , less much stress on my wrist and it felt lighter even though my attack was stronger than usual .

Brian Prunka - 5-29-2015 at 07:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SufianSaeed  
thats what i did at the very start of oud playing but i was told many times not to do this , personally it worked great , less much stress on my wrist and it felt lighter even though my attack was stronger than usual .


Can you explain what you mean? What's the "this" you are saying "not to do"? What are you doing and can you post a picture?

The way I am playing is with a nearly straight wrist, there is no stress on my wrist at all.

SufianSaeed - 5-29-2015 at 05:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Quote: Originally posted by SufianSaeed  
thats what i did at the very start of oud playing but i was told many times not to do this , personally it worked great , less much stress on my wrist and it felt lighter even though my attack was stronger than usual .


Can you explain what you mean? What's the "this" you are saying "not to do"? What are you doing and can you post a picture?

The way I am playing is with a nearly straight wrist, there is no stress on my wrist at all.



First few weeks i played the oud i experimented with different ways of holding the Risha , eventually i held it the way you did in the photo but i was told not to by my teacher recently , maybe its too early but it was really helpful because i have a kinda off small oud compared to my arm length and i grew this annoying habit "which am trying hard to lose" of bending my wrist a bit which gets really exhausting and quite painful sometimes after playing for a while or playing intensely .

Brian Prunka - 5-29-2015 at 06:03 PM

Can you explain what it is that is different? Who is your teacher? What did he suggest was wrong and what is the alternative?

As I said, I don't bend the wrist much, actually the angle of the risha means that I don't need to angle my wrist (except slightly since obviously my elbow is not in a plane with the face of the oud).
I can assure you that my approach does not lead to any fatigue or pain, regardless of how long or intensely I play.

I'm not saying I have the perfect approach or anything, I'm always looking to learn from everyone's insights. My initial post here was simply to share an observation (from about 8 years ago!) that seemed to help me. Mike deleted all the photos a while back, and a bunch of people have asked for them. I couldn't find the original photos and, being from 8 years ago, probably don't truly reflect my current thoughts anyway, so I tried to take some new photos.
Perhaps the photo is not totally accurate, as I did it quickly and it's difficult to take a picture with one hand while holding the risha with the other hand.

It's just strange and unhelpful for you to say "I don't do this" and not explain what you mean. Presumably you are not holding it between your toes or your teeth, so what do you mean? What did your teacher suggest was the problem and what did he tell you to do differently?



SufianSaeed - 5-30-2015 at 01:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Can you explain what it is that is different? Who is your teacher? What did he suggest was wrong and what is the alternative?

As I said, I don't bend the wrist much, actually the angle of the risha means that I don't need to angle my wrist (except slightly since obviously my elbow is not in a plane with the face of the oud).
I can assure you that my approach does not lead to any fatigue or pain, regardless of how long or intensely I play.

I'm not saying I have the perfect approach or anything, I'm always looking to learn from everyone's insights. My initial post here was simply to share an observation (from about 8 years ago!) that seemed to help me. Mike deleted all the photos a while back, and a bunch of people have asked for them. I couldn't find the original photos and, being from 8 years ago, probably don't truly reflect my current thoughts anyway, so I tried to take some new photos.
Perhaps the photo is not totally accurate, as I did it quickly and it's difficult to take a picture with one hand while holding the risha with the other hand.

It's just strange and unhelpful for you to say "I don't do this" and not explain what you mean. Presumably you are not holding it between your toes or your teeth, so what do you mean? What did your teacher suggest was the problem and what did he tell you to do differently?





i totally wasn't criticizing your approach to the Risha Brian , i think you mis-understood me , if was i criticizing anyone by my words i would've meant my teacher for telling me not to do it :) , all i meant was that i used to hold it the way you did in the photos and that my teacher told me to hold in an another way even though this way was more helpful/comfortable for me , i definitely can't hold it with my teeth or toes and i definitely lack the experience & knowledge as to know why would he tell me not do it , i had a lesson today with him and when i asked him he didn't make it clear why not to , as he just gave an "unsatisfied face expression" when i did and he probably only did that since he's into the very classical way of playing oud but i wouldn't know more than that .

Brian Prunka - 5-30-2015 at 01:48 PM

No, it's fine, I just want to understand how you are holding it now and what is different.
I don't intend this as any kind of argument, it's just about trying to share actual information. I want to understand what your teacher said to do different. I'm not asking why, just an explanation of what is different. Or if you took a picture showing how he told you to hold it, that would be great.

All of my teachers were very traditional, classical style players, so I don't think that is the difference.

Jody Stecher - 5-30-2015 at 02:00 PM

Sufian, I think you are saying your teacher told you not to combine an extremely bent wrist with the grip Brian learned from Simon Shaheen, the grip that both use with a moderately bent wrist, which caused you fatigue but causes no fatigue to Brian. Since I can't quite get a *grip* on this idea, maybe we can take another approach if you are willing. Please tell us what he told you to do instead. How does he hold the risha?
Quote: Originally posted by SufianSaeed  
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Can you explain what it is that is different? Who is your teacher? What did he suggest was wrong and what is the alternative?

As I said, I don't bend the wrist much, actually the angle of the risha means that I don't need to angle my wrist (except slightly since obviously my elbow is not in a plane with the face of the oud).
I can assure you that my approach does not lead to any fatigue or pain, regardless of how long or intensely I play.

I'm not saying I have the perfect approach or anything, I'm always looking to learn from everyone's insights. My initial post here was simply to share an observation (from about 8 years ago!) that seemed to help me. Mike deleted all the photos a while back, and a bunch of people have asked for them. I couldn't find the original photos and, being from 8 years ago, probably don't truly reflect my current thoughts anyway, so I tried to take some new photos.
Perhaps the photo is not totally accurate, as I did it quickly and it's difficult to take a picture with one hand while holding the risha with the other hand.

It's just strange and unhelpful for you to say "I don't do this" and not explain what you mean. Presumably you are not holding it between your toes or your teeth, so what do you mean? What did your teacher suggest was the problem and what did he tell you to do differently?





i totally wasn't criticizing your approach to the Risha Brian , i think you mis-understood me , if was i criticizing anyone by my words i would've meant my teacher for telling me not to do it :) , all i meant was that i used to hold it the way you did in the photos and that my teacher told me to hold in an another way even though this way was more helpful/comfortable for me , i definitely can't hold it with my teeth or toes and i definitely lack the experience & knowledge as to know why would he tell me not do it , i had a lesson today with him and when i asked him he didn't make it clear why not to , as he just gave an "unsatisfied face expression" when i did and he probably only did that since he's into the very classical way of playing oud but i wouldn't know more than that .

SufianSaeed - 5-30-2015 at 03:48 PM

Hi Jody , i think the best thing i can do now is to actually post a photo of the way he holds it , i've got a lesson with him tomorrow afternoon , i can promise a photo , a photo can elaborate much more than anything my vocab allows me to write :)

newlife_ks - 6-13-2016 at 01:57 AM

Hello everybody!

This is my first post on this board, and since I'm a newbie on oud I'm surely curious about different ways holding the risha. But as it looks to me there are no photos any more. Could someone please repost them?

Regards from Germany!

Klaus

Danielo - 6-13-2016 at 02:52 AM

Hi,

and welcome to the forums !

Here is a short video from another master, Adel Salameh, that I took during a memorable masterclass in my house...

I hope it helps !

Dan



Attachment: rishademo_adel.avi (452kB)
This file has been downloaded 255 times

majnuunNavid - 6-13-2016 at 07:57 PM

How do you open this file?

Danielo - 6-13-2016 at 10:58 PM

This is just an ordinary .avi format... I changed the name of the file it may helps.


Dan

norumba - 6-25-2016 at 08:45 PM

Brian, looks like your updated pics are wiped out again...:(

TonyM - 7-3-2016 at 05:25 AM

I've tried several different types of Risha and even bought some blanks and shaped them. When I hit the third string (mainly), I get a very unmusical slap. I've changed the angles and experimented but it's still 'slap, slap, slap'. What could I be doing wrong?