Mike's Oud Forums

Why is Arabic music so awful ?

joseph - 4-1-2007 at 01:14 AM

I love Arabic music, and I hate it. A contradiction that perhaps reflects the way I feel about Arabic society in general, how for example, even when I was at school, I felt that it was beyond redemption, that its problems are endemic, that it was hopeless, and yet at the same time I look back at it, as if some event, some new book, some new movement will bring about a positive change, only to be disappointed by its never ending backward looking, its growing extremism and religious obsessiveness, and its extreme carelessness about life and human life, as if nothing in this life matters, as if this life is only a passage to some paradise that no one has seen, but people who proclaim to know assure us that it is all that matters.

The other day, the thought also struck me - I hate music. I thought this when I was on the bus, unwillingly listening to the mix of noises leaking from headphones, and on a previous occasion where loud music played in a cafe, ruined any chance of a Sunday morning conversation. Yes, music is oppressive, is too loud, and in too many places. It is used as a wall between people, as an isolating barrier, or simply to prevent that embarrassing silence, that demands real listening and reflection.

In saying that Arabic music is awful, I'm expressing a feeling I had on several occasions, which left me a little puzzled on why people can sometimes have such large differences in musical taste and appreciation , so a piece which is beautiful, even crucial to one person's life , is meaningless or even repulsive to someone else. For example, listening to a demonstration of Arabic music scales on an expensive synthesizer, I listened to some admiring the clarity of the sound, while I thought quietly how pretentious it is. I had similar thoughts, and differences of opinions, on other occasions for example when listening to some of the latest Egyptian songs played on the local Arabic broadcast, or watching some Arabic style video clips.

I think some difference in taste is legitimate, and is unavoidable. Perhaps it simply means that we all have different temperaments, values and life experiences, so each of us is searching for a different sound, a different meaning in music. Music also has different functions, so good Arabic chamber music, for example, is bad music for an Arabic wedding party, and vice versa. I obviously think now, it is more than just differences in taste, otherwise I wouldn't write this. When I say I dislike most Arabic music now, and that I think most of it is simply bad, I'm not saying that my taste has changed, or that this music has value, but I just happen not too like it. No, I'm saying this music has no value, it is bland and meaningless, it is bad by an objective criteria that I will talk about next.

I'll just make clear first by an example this difference. I can say for example that I don't like the music of
Michael Jackson or Madonna. Here, I'm expressing my taste. I would clearly concede their talent, but perhaps the music does not speak to me, because of temperament, background or values. I can see however the appeal of music to others. What I'm saying about most modern popular Arabic music is more than this. I can't see the value of this music to anyone. It is awful and useless in a more general way.


First, we have the lyrics of Arabic songs. Can we bear to hear another lyric where the beloved's face resembles the moon? Are there any more sexist, bland, condescending remarks to be said about women and love that have not been said in these awful rhyming repetitions? Does anyone ever learn anything, or relates in any way to such banal cliches? I know, popular songs in English can also have this disease, but the silly lyrics are often masked with louder music, and they tend not to speak about the moon.

But even if we were to concede that silly lyrics is a character of popular music everywhere, modern Arabic popular music has another feature that is really peculiar to it, causing it to be completely trivial. That feature is a result of a disease, among many, that infect Arabic society. That disease is extremism in general, and in how we deal with the West, and Western culture in particular.

It is not necessary to use politics as an example, and I'll avoid the controversy of political topics by pointing to examples of our personal lives as migrants. I don't know, if like me, you also occasionally met Arabs who seem to forget the Arabic language so quickly, perhaps soon just after landing in the airport of the country they are migrating to. They don't want to be known as Arabs, and avoid other Arabs. I met people like this, and I thought of what it would feel like to deny our own heritage and culture in this way. I also met people who are the opposite extreme, who try to shield their children from interactions except in their own community, as if any change, any learning, any Western influence, any criticism is a threat. I feel that too many of us fall into these extremist categories, so when it comes to our relationships to the West, we really have no clue how to relate, and the reason we have no clue, is that we have no confidence in our selves and our own heritage, so we tend to be, like our own old governments are in politics, over compliant in our acceptance, or over aggressive in our rejection.

The dominant Arabic music today reflects this dominant feeling in Arabic society, and it is awful because of this. Its dominating feature can be summarised by one word: Imitation. Imitation to Western music, or Imitation to music of the past. It has nothing new to offer or to say, so it cannot relate to us and what we are. I am obviously talking about popular Arabic music here, the dominating form, but not the only form.

This is blind and stupid imitation, not the imitation of the student who is learning, or an apprentice artist. Some Arabic musicians listen to Western popular songs every now and then, and they think they figured out how Western music works. So now, we have this new Arabic music played with a regular rhythm, pointlessly repeating, so it is monotonous like the music it imitates, but the imitated harmony which makes the Western piece pleasant or bearable, is now distorted in scales that don't fit into an awful sound. This blind imitation, is contemptuous of Western culture, because it underestimates its richness and complexity. It is also demeaning of Arabic culture, because it dismisses all its previous heritage as irrelevant.

In the other camp, are the traditionalists, and their advocates, perhaps exemplified in an otherwise very good book by Habib Hassan Touma called “The music of the Arabs”. Here, the call is almost for a pure and traditional Arabic music. Western instruments and styles, or even Western musical notation are suspect since they are not authentic (1).

But isn't this also another form of imitation? Instead of imitating the West, we're imitating the past. The modern Egyptian songs are awful, but is there a point in a new singer singing in the style of Um Kalthoum today, given that it would always be better to listen to the original? The flaw is also in the assumption, that there was ever a pure or unique Arabic style. I think it is just as fantasy as a unique Arabic culture. Just look at the names of the scales to recognize the variety of the influences: Ajam, Nahawand, Hijaz, Kurd. There is also a mistaken assumption about tradition and what adhering to tradition means. I think it means learning from it as a starting point, but I don't think tradition is meant to be taken as shackles around us. I don't think we're meant to be bound by tradition in this crippling way. Because of imitation, I say that most modern Arabic modern music is worthless. You are better off listening to the original, either the Western music, or the older songs it imitates.

I think the authenticity that is required is not to tradition but to our own feelings, and living in a way that is true to ourselves. Perhaps then, we can learn how to relate to others in a better way. We, as Arabic people, or people from Arabic background, have really to become more serious about how we live this life, and put in the effort which is necessary to contribute to civilisation in general. We have to embrace complexity, and stop trivialising politics as a series of conspiracy theories, or cultures as simply good or bad. If we want to learn from Western music, then studying Western music would take years of serious effort, and if we want to be true to our tradition, that also requires years of serious effort. What is more important, though, is to be true to our own feelings, and to be open to all influences new or old, and not to treat them with extreme separation as one versus the other.

In this, the oud as an instrument has a lot to offer. It is not suited to chords and tempered scales, so it tends to discourage the easy form of blind imitation. Influences, from other fields such as jazz are taken in slowly, and adapted to the instrument's limitations. The lure of taqasim, and the openness of the instrument also encourages experimentation and exploration. It is an honest instrument in its sound, rewarding despite its frustrations. It is not an easy instrument. When you play it, there is no easy button to press, and the music rolls out. You have to make the sound, and listen. You have to be serious.

It is clear that today, that there is among the mass junk of Arabic music, some Arabic music which is worthwhile, and I think most of it interestingly is being played, and originated by Arabic artists outside Arabic countries. Sadly, the worst of Arabic music, the most bland and meaningless is coming out of Egypt, and it is depressing that an Arabic country that produced Abdel Wahab, Um Kalthoum and many other giants of Arabic music, has descended to such lows in music. Perhaps the same can be said about modern Egypt in the field of literature as well. I would be really happy if I'm mistaken, if I'm saying this only because I'm far away, and I got the wrong impression, so I would be happy to be given the names of some living Egyptian artists that I can actually listen to.

I hope that no one misreads this, and thinks that I'm setting myself here in the camp of religious clerics who have attacked video clips as immoral and demanded their banning. I'm not asking for anything to be banned or controlled. If the video clips annoy the religious clerics, then that's more the reason for them. I'm not against belly dancing music or belly dancing in general, and sometimes I do enjoy this type of music. What I'm saying is that Arabic music should be varied enough to express a variety of feelings and should be authentic to these feelings. It should be varied and not so narrowly defined.

There are no quick solutions here, rather than a vague call for seriousness and authenticity. Arabic music is in decline because Arabic culture is in decline, and so is Arabic literature, and all fields of learning. The only hope is that there is, even in such ignorance and darkness, still Arabic music that is exquisite and meaningful, and if one were to search long enough, perhaps even lyrics poetry and thought that is challenging and worthwhile. In this context, serious artists are as as important as good leaders and reformers.

Joseph Harfouch
Perth, Western Australia
April 1, 2007

(1) The music of the Arabs – Habib Hassan Touma – Amadeus Press 1996
(See in particular the chapter on “Musician and Composer and the Problem of Cultural Identity).

SamirCanada - 4-1-2007 at 09:20 AM

Joseph you are right... Iam with you.

but listen to these song you will Love it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibd1x-UMV2g&mode=related&sea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTfw5F-ukTI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7U4wlSAgB8&mode=related&sea...

Eid el Kizeb aleik
(april fools!)

eliot - 4-10-2007 at 02:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by joseph
I hope that no one misreads this, and thinks that I'm setting myself here in the camp of religious clerics who have attacked video clips as immoral and demanded their banning. I'm not asking for anything to be banned or controlled. If the video clips annoy the religious clerics, then that's more the reason for them. I'm not against belly dancing music or belly dancing in general, and sometimes I do enjoy this type of music. What I'm saying is that Arabic music should be varied enough to express a variety of feelings and should be authentic to these feelings. It should be varied and not so narrowly defined.

There are no quick solutions here, rather than a vague call for seriousness and authenticity. Arabic music is in decline because Arabic culture is in decline, and so is Arabic literature, and all fields of learning. The only hope is that there is, even in such ignorance and darkness, still Arabic music that is exquisite and meaningful, and if one were to search long enough, perhaps even lyrics poetry and thought that is challenging and worthwhile. In this context, serious artists are as as important as good leaders and reformers.


This is one of the best posts I've ever read on any of these oud or middle eastern or whatnot web forums. Thanks for sharing a well considered view of Arabic music...

It's not just a phenomenon in Egypt, though - I hear A LOT of local musicians in Istanbul (and elsewhere in Turkey) raising similar issues. I know many musicians here who once were active performers of Turkish halk or sanat music who would never ever listen to another contemporary recording made in Turkey again (though they'll still dust off their old Asik Veysel or Tanburi Cemil Bey recordings) and have entirely quit "their" music to pick up Western rock, jazz, or other "foreign" music traditions.Why are there not new recordings coming out that are equally inspiring?

I've found that Turkish classical music in performance, for the most part, has gained a substantial amount of suspiciously Western-looking technical virtuosity and lost the variety of meanings you imply above. But the virtuosity is no replacement for the soul that once resided in the music. It's dead music - culturally dead. There are brief moments when it appears to pop back to life - Incesaz's debut album, or some of Goksel Baktagir's new ensemble compositions - but generally, ask the vast majority of Turks what Turkish sanat music means to them and when the last time they enjoyed going to such a concert and you'll understand what I mean about cultural death.

The most compelling performers in Istanbul now are 80s rock cover bands - I personally hate the music of Aerosmith and Guns 'n' Roses and such, but at least the performers are really "into it," and it's obvious that the performance has a significant meaning for everyone who attends (well, except me, perhaps!).

Anyway, that enthusiasm/energy, but applied to music from Anatolian soil... or Egyptian soil...

It's not just Arabic music

rebetostar - 4-10-2007 at 07:20 AM

Interesting perspective, Joseph.
I think your feelings are shared by many all around the world, by people who love music (I would never actually say I hate music! might as well hate life). Not only Arabic music or Turkish music or American music. Right now the "major label" music industry is controlled by only 4 companies, worldwide. Their only purpose? Sell product, make money..increase shareholder value. Radio is under corporate control..major record stores..Television..movies. All media. No wonder there's so much crap out there!! It's all funded by guys in suits.
Plus, musicians used to be professional enough that they could record a song with the whole band in one room, in one take, with one mic. Nowdays we have "auto-tune" to correct poor intonation, and musicians record their tracks by themselves, with no energy from the others. Even worse, one producer can play all the instruments on a synth/sampler. Add the auto-tuned singer and presto..it's another hit. Yawn.

But..don't despair friends!!! There are lots of innovators and amazing creative explosions happening.. underground. The internet brings us amazing talents and bands from far-flung corners of the earth, who would never get a record deal, but now can be heard. The world music/hip-hop/tribal fusion/Asian underground scene is HUGE. But you won't ever hear it on the radio, or see it on TV.
That's my little rant for the day :-)

Brian Prunka - 4-10-2007 at 11:51 AM

Joseph, you make a number of insightful comments and observations.
Eliot's right, though, that this is common in all over the place in all types of music, not just in popular Arabic music. I'm not going to get into my feelings on the matter; maybe another day when I'm bored and have nothing to do.

However, here are a couple of non-classical records that I regard as artistically valid, interesting and inspiring:

Azzddine w/Bill Laswell: Massafat
Hüsnü Senlendirici & Laço Tayfa: Çiftetelli

These records let me know that there are people who are putting out new music that isn't garbage. The music world, like the rest of the world, is becoming increasingly globalized, but increasingly fragmented at the same time. I don't think we'll ever see monolithic music styles arise again, especially not ones tied to particular regions/cultures/ethnicities. Instead, we have the rise of a multiplicity of mini-genres that fulfill different niches. I don't think this is a bad thing. Mass culture will inevitably continue to decline, because it's no longer controlled by narrow cultural forces (musical discipleship, conservatories, patronage, tradition). But we will have increased access to an amazing diversity of music if we choose (we may still have to listen to Celine Dion in the elevator, though).

oops, i said I wasn't going to get into my opinions . . .

SamirCanada - 4-10-2007 at 11:58 AM

Rebetostar, I dont think you can compare the two.
Arabic music is not an underground scene in arabic music. It maybe the point of vue you have comming from the US. But arabic music is not world music in the arab countries its the main type of music. The main issue is that from the point of vue of arab music enthousiasts(or other people that enjoy true classical arabic music) arabic music has faced a decline in recent years due mainly to the adoption of western standards to grade music quality and the ensuing westernisation in the production techniques using mainly synthesisers etc... The change occured verry rapidly and thats why many people have a hard time comming to terms with the significant loss in the quality of the music. the lyrics have taken a catastrophic turn for the worst and the melodies have been simplified to such an extent that it is not comparable to anywhere near the levels that had been set by the great pinoeers of arabic music. Levels that had been reached as the result of many years of progress and inventions that are unfortunetly being discarded and will soon be forgoten if there isnt a revival of classical arabic music. It seems society likes things fast and easy and so the songs coming out to please this generation are just that FAST and EASy ( which Iam part of since Iam just 22 but I dont relate to)
In many ways the music industry in egypt is verry inclined to make sales of course and they have adopted western standards to rate music ( production and overall qualities of the music) and they have made the promotion of there music using these false standards on how to apreciate arabic music. So in many ways what was recognized as pure genious in art by the generation of my father. ( composers like Riadh el Sumbati etc...) is now concidered as low quality music which is "boring".
I could go on and on but Joseph put it so well
Iam with you 100% Joseph
and Iam glad you posted your opinions.

eliot - 4-10-2007 at 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Prunka

However, here are a couple of non-classical records that I regard as artistically valid, interesting and inspiring:

Azzddine w/Bill Laswell: Massafat
Hüsnü Senlendirici & Laço Tayfa: Çiftetelli

These records let me know that there are people who are putting out new music that isn't garbage.


Sometimes there are bright moments on the recording horizon. But I think you'd be far from inspired if you observed Hüsnü Senlendirici's soft-rock (think K-Lite) performances on his daytime talk show Sari Gelen. Good groups do not stay together long here. A moment of brilliance might emerge, but it seems more like random blips than evidence that there's something sustaining artistic brilliance and inspired performances.
Quote:
Originally posted by rebetostar
But..don't despair friends!!! There are lots of innovators and amazing creative explosions happening.. underground. The internet brings us amazing talents and bands from far-flung corners of the earth, who would never get a record deal, but now can be heard. The world music/hip-hop/tribal fusion/Asian underground scene is HUGE. But you won't ever hear it on the radio, or see it on TV.


I used to think this way. I'm pretty good at trawling the underground scenes, the "off the beaten path" locations on the internet and in the physical world, and have a collection of beloved yet very esoteric recordings from all over. But today, I sure ain't seeing any "amazing creative explosions." I'm seeing "creative explosions," and all manners of other explosions, but after one listen they cease to amaze. There are only a handful of albums that have come out in the 2000s that I would ever want to listen to again, from here or anywhere (though maybe the first time around I'd be tempted to say - "hey, that's interesting..."). I have "found" one and only one artist on myspace whose music amazed me - and this is a performer who I knew and played with in the 1990s but we went separate ways and fell out of touch (thus, not someone entirely unknown to me).

But hey, gives me all that more reason to practice and make the recordings I want to listen to, right?

:rolleyes:

(Yet more transcriptions from my jaded and unsolicited opinion).

rebetostar - 4-11-2007 at 08:25 AM

Hi Eliot,
Have you seen the film "Crossing the Bridge: the sound of Istanbul"? If not, check it:
http://www.crossingthebridge.de/
Maybe you will hear some good Istanbul music you haven't heard before. Of course, nobody's taste is identical. I really like Burhan Öcal's work with the Istanbul Oriental Ensemble, but didn't really like his latest records very much.
ps. Who was the Myspace artist you mentioned? I'd like to listen.

Samir,
Please try to consider your words better before you respond to me:
Quote:

Rebetostar, I dont think you can compare the two.


Of course I can. There are obvious parallels. (between the US music industry and that of the Middle East). The big labels produce "music" to appeal to what they think is the lowest common denominator, in order to sell the most product. Everyone else, including you and me, are "indie" artists who won't get heard unless we promote ourselves, especially online. But there are some great talents among us.

I also have a compilation CD from 2005 featuring some literally underground music from Baghdad. It's very raw and nothing like the shmaltzy stuff you refer to. There is an underground Arabic music scene. You just have to look for it.
Quote:

It maybe the point of vue you have comming from the US.


I am not from the US, I live in the same country as you. We have discussed this before. Your spelling is atrocious, BTW.

ALAMI - 4-11-2007 at 09:28 AM

Wanna some really underground Arabic Music ?

and by this I mean music created in the arab world, and not necessarily "oriental sounding" music.
Just to start, check the work of this label Al Maslakh. That's how they define themseleves:

al maslakh (the slaughterhouse) is a ufo created to publish the unpublishable in the lebanese artistic scene

http://www.almaslakh.org/catalog.php

David Parfitt - 4-11-2007 at 09:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rebetostar
Your spelling is atrocious, BTW.


So is your grammar:

"Of course, nobody's taste is identical."

SamirCanada - 4-11-2007 at 10:04 AM

I didn't mean to attack you fellow. I completely forgot we had discussed this on the forums before. But in the end it doesn't mater where you come from its all about your approach to arabic music.
English is the forth language I learned and I don't have to use it much here in French Canada.

Anyways...I think you cant compare the two
You think you can

Thats ok... agree to disagree, we cant all be on the same page every time.
this is of course my opinion. You think otherwise and there is nothing wrong with that.
What I was saying though is that your approaching the problem from your own point of vue and not from the one that was put forward by Joseph which is the one I relate to. I am sure there must be an indie scene in the arab world but are they doing arabic music? or are they doing trance/hip-hop/drum and base/rock etc... kind of stuff.
What many would like to see is for Arabic music to comeback to the use of real instruments and work towards re-establishing the quality level that was found in traditional arabic music. And that is what Joseph is talking about.
Btw, no hard feelings you must have thought I was trying to single you out.
sorry about that.

rebetostar - 4-11-2007 at 10:51 AM

:)) I knew someone would catch me for critisizing spelling. I hardly think that qualifies as atrocious though. ;)
No-one's tastes are identical, I meant to say.

Hey Samir,
Don't worry, I'm not terribly offended. It does seem like you enjoy taking a contrary position to mine, even though I think we are really on the same page.
There's one thing you said that I find disagreeable;
Quote:

arabic music has faced a decline in recent years due mainly to the adoption of western standards to grade music quality and the ensuing westernisation in the production techniques


You sound a bit typical; blaming "the west" for all these problems. The real culprits are:
1. Technology. (mostly invented in Japan, so blame them ;)
Synths and digital multitrack recorders are widely available now, even to people with no talent or taste.
2. Global capitalism. Who decides what makes it onto Arabic record store shelves and commercial radio? Arabic music industry promoters and advertising execs.

Also, what is the definition of Arabic music? Pretty tough to put one's finger on. Music that adheres to a "tradition" agreed upon in Cairo in 1932? No. What was Arabic music before that? Music is constantly evolving. Artists trying to create an "authentic style" are really only considering one specific point in time.
Speaking of time..I've gotta get back to work.
Salaam Aleikoum.

eliot - 4-11-2007 at 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rebetostar
Hi Eliot,
Have you seen the film "Crossing the Bridge: the sound of Istanbul"? If not, check it:
http://www.crossingthebridge.de/
Maybe you will hear some good Istanbul music you haven't heard before. Of course, nobody's taste is identical. I really like Burhan Öcal's work with the Istanbul Oriental Ensemble, but didn't really like his latest records very much.

The promotional video for the doublemoon fusion catalogue, you mean? It's polished, commercial music, but I'm not sure what any of it means (to anyone, especially Turks). But (with the exception of Aynur Doğan, who is a brilliant performer) I find these and most other contemporary fusion projects to be at their best interesting experiments to view once or so. I'm not against or for fusion per se - I've just seen that it's really hard to make a quality fusion music that has anything more than an ephemeral quality, and very few artists or groups tend to reach that state. In Istanbul, there's much more incentive to quickly throw something together and market it through known distribution channels than there is to spend years as a group polishing repertoire or striving for a vision of creating truly great art. And it takes years of playing together for a group to be able to create really great art.

I'll put on old Asik Veysel, Asik Mahzuni Serif, Haci Tasan, Tanburi Cemil Bey, Yorgo Bacanos, Kani Karaca, etc. records any day over all but a couple CDs that have come out in the last 7 years here in Turkey. Or Qasabgi or early Oum Kalthoum or Sayyid Darwish for the Arab music over Amr Diab or Hakim. For Persian music, there is no limit to the times I can listen to Mohammed Reza Shajarian (sometimes 12 hours on a stretch).

Sure, I'll head out to a Beyoglu bar and put down a couple raki and check out a new Baba Zulu side project, or a Turkish indie rock band, or something, but it's not the same as what Joseph was talking about in the first post or people have replied in affirmation. One year from now that experience will leave very little trace on me as a person. Great art can inspire a profound change, in comparison.
Quote:

ps. Who was the Myspace artist you mentioned? I'd like to listen.

Kimberly Dragonfly. It's not even remotely "Middle Eastern" - but the lyrics are subtle and interesting, the singing is very good, and there's stuff in there that makes me want to listen repeatedly.

eliot - 4-11-2007 at 11:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rebetostar
Quote:

arabic music has faced a decline in recent years due mainly to the adoption of western standards to grade music quality and the ensuing westernisation in the production techniques


You sound a bit typical; blaming "the west" for all these problems.


I don't think he was blaming the West, at least how I read it. "The adoption of Western standards" implies an indigenous effort and not an outside process or outside force. The West couldn't care less how the Arabs tune their instruments... but in Egypt, there was a local desire to change production techniques.

Now why there was a desire to adopt Western standards, and who had that desire, I'm not sure.

SamirCanada - 4-11-2007 at 12:20 PM

Eliot... this is also what has me completly mistified.

In a sense the youth is being tought that this is what good music sounds like and on this rebetostar is right about being the industry moguls behind it. But why is it that people for a taste of music accepted this as the new standards for what is good music. If you ask most youth that enjoy arabic music to go out and dance well they go crazy for the shallow lyrics the fast synthesized beats and etc... There parents most likely think this type of music is garbage. Something happened in between and probably technologie can be blamed for part of the problem but there has to be more to it.
anyhow... Iam verry much troubled by the fact that the youth is not verry interested in persuing musical education in the traditional schools. As a result we may see many players being able to perform incredibely fast and technical solos on there ouds for instance but what about the soul?
I think the same is hapening trough out the ME when Eliot mentions this

" I've found that Turkish classical music in performance, for the most part, has gained a substantial amount of suspiciously Western-looking technical virtuosity and lost the variety of meanings you imply above. But the virtuosity is no replacement for the soul that once resided in the music. It's dead music - culturally dead"

I can only agree with this.

a potentially pointless ramble.

amtaha - 4-11-2007 at 06:25 PM

Forgive me for my ramblings, but these are just some non-coherent thoughts on what is being discussed.

I would hate to sound pessimistic.

But, in my opinion, one cannot judge the state of creativity and sincerity in current Arabic music in absence of the state where this music is coming from.

At the risk of stating the obvious, the lack of creativity and sincerity is not limited to music. To begin with relative art forms, one can also take into consideration the quality of lyrics, vocals, CD art, video clips, arrangements, etc.

Things are generally converging to “artists” producing what is no more than flashy, thoughtless (and thought non-provoking), stupidly sensual (and I’m using “sensual” to maintain politeness.) And this is only observing what is being surfaced, and letting alone of the effectively much more narcotic productions.

It is definitely not the kind of art that makes you think, or dream, or aspire to some kind of understanding or reach a mode to absorb some beauty. It genuinely sucks.

But what about poetry, painting, movies, novels, etc?

It’s more than this, too. If you observe popular discourse, whether professional or otherwise, and in either art, religion, science, politics or other. A persistent production of what even, at many times, lacks the superficial value.

Of course there are a few glimpses of hope. Rough and shy, and possibly timid, shining every now and then. But then, it’s mostly bleak.

But, to state the obvious, the production of bleak is high, as well as the consumption.

Now there are several whys to deal with at this moment;

Why is this so? Is it the social/economic/oprresive/etc. state that the people are in? Could it be that the consumption of bleak is an equivalence of the consumption of an opium? An escapade from how things are because it is that unbearable? Conspiracy theories aside (and boy, there are plenty), are we at the point that people are unaware of what they’re producing/consuming is opium, or is it a higher state of delusion?

This “why” is somewhat fishy. And until now, I am unable to even come close to grasp an answer or an understanding of why things are _really_ the way they are. But let me digress a bit, perhaps part of my confusion can be understood.

When you hear one of those awful songs, can you imagine how the song came about? A lyricist, reciting empty words before a composer, who, in turn, is awed by the power of the words, interrupting the lyricists with. “Brilliant. What an expression. Etc.” And the composer be much excited about the lyrics, the music just flows from (whatever it may be that such music comes out from). And then both get more excited and call a singer who, dumbfounded and dumb raised, would sing the song in a goat/cat-like voice, and the lyricist and the composer and the singer would all be joyful over how this “song” came to excretion – i.e. creation.

(Surely you can tell I have much free time, and I can certainly go on to complete the rest of the cycle or contemplate other possible sequences. I only hope that I managed to make the point.)

But to turn to another why – why isn’t there a better alternative? (The reference is to an alternative a certain discourse, and not to a holistic alternative.) There is a presumption here that we are seeking something that is better in terms of all artistic qualities and sensibilities, but are accepting possible variation in tests across and time and place.

Yes, there are productions that are better available here and there, mostly unknown and possibly only appreciated in certain “enlightened” circles. But beyond these minor examples, why isn’t there a better alternative in the mainstream?

There is anecdote about master Qasabji and Omme Kalthoum. Qasabji composed the music of a musical movie for the Omme Kalthoum, but apparently it wasn’t accepted by the people. It is said that when Omme Kalthoum began to blame the Qasabji for what happened, he said “It is not that we failed. It is them [the public] who failed to understand our art.”

Let’s dismiss the notion that the “public” are assumed to be striving to understand/comprehend/interpret the artist’s work. It would also be downright wrong to both the artist of the public to think that it’s the artist role to “go down” to the public’s level. Beginning things this way is both irritating and useless. What is more appropriate, and inherently valid, is that the public has an access to a rich and complex diction – beyond the literal sense – that the artist should use so that both can reach the point where art is. Granted, this creates huge pressures on the well-meaning, sincere-working and talented artist. But this is how I imagine things should work.

The partial point that I’m trying to make here is that, despite all that can be said to be preventing good art from being spread, it could be that the artists are not trying hard enough.

But as to why things are the way the are – I honestly can't tell, but it's beyond music.

Regards,
Hamid

journeyman - 4-12-2007 at 09:11 AM

As an educator as well as a performer I thought I'd give my 2 cents worth. My involvement in music is primarily in the area of jazz and I am a student of Brazilian music as well. It is not only Arabic music that displays what you are talking about. The world is becoming one big consumer society except those places where people have no money or financial infrastructure. In the 1960's the most prominent artists in jazz were people like Bill Evans, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Ornette Coleman et al. It was all about the music, finding ways of personalizing it and expanding the resources. It was about depth. Now in many cases, but not all, the biggest "stars" represent packaging and marketing, not the art form. Smooth jazz for example exists largely to sell advertising on radio. In Brazil now, one of the most musical cultures on earth, most people listen to watered down pop music or dance music that is lacking the depth and connection to the root of that tradition.

When I have this discussion with people their argument is often, "Well, a lot of people like it." My response is. "Yes, and a lot of people like to eat Wonder Bread, but is it good bread?" "Is MacDonalds really about food?" No, it is about marketing.

Art will continue because of the artists, and we can only hope that people in general will grow tired of being spoon fed garbage and trends will shift, at least from time to time.

eliot - 4-12-2007 at 05:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by journeyman
Smooth jazz for example exists largely to sell advertising on radio.


All music on the radio (with the exception of college radio stations) has served exclusively that function since the 1950s if not earlier (in the US). In Turkey, there was no private radio until more recently - there really wasn't a large commercial music industry until the 90s. It hit, advertising dollars went through the roof, now selling "ringtones" is where an aspiring artist can make the biggest buck (I'm not kidding, unfortunately).

And following up on what you were saying about "liking" things: People can be quite easily convinced/persuaded to like something. Liking or not liking has never been a great criteria for judging the quality of art - it's a better judge of how persuasive the marketing program was.

journeyman - 4-12-2007 at 08:08 PM

Quote:
All music on the radio (with the exception of college radio stations) has served exclusively that function since the 1950s if not earlier (in the US).


We have the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation here in Canada.

David Parfitt - 4-12-2007 at 11:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by journeyman
As an educator as well as a performer I thought I'd give my 2 cents worth. My involvement in music is primarily in the area of jazz and I am a student of Brazilian music as well. It is not only Arabic music that displays what you are talking about. The world is becoming one big consumer society except those places where people have no money or financial infrastructure. In the 1960's the most prominent artists in jazz were people like Bill Evans, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Ornette Coleman et al. It was all about the music, finding ways of personalizing it and expanding the resources. It was about depth. Now in many cases, but not all, the biggest "stars" represent packaging and marketing, not the art form. Smooth jazz for example exists largely to sell advertising on radio. In Brazil now, one of the most musical cultures on earth, most people listen to watered down pop music or dance music that is lacking the depth and connection to the root of that tradition.

When I have this discussion with people their argument is often, "Well, a lot of people like it." My response is. "Yes, and a lot of people like to eat Wonder Bread, but is it good bread?" "Is MacDonalds really about food?" No, it is about marketing.

Art will continue because of the artists, and we can only hope that people in general will grow tired of being spoon fed garbage and trends will shift, at least from time to time.


This made me think of a visit to South Africa a few years ago. I was browsing for South African music in a CD shop in Cape Town and was amazed to discover that it was filed under "World Music". The majority of the racks in the shop were filled with CDs of poppy pap.

billkilpatrick - 4-13-2007 at 07:32 AM

i've mentioned this before - don't know if arab music is awful or not but much of it is certainly not to my taste. before "sky" bought out whatever it was that was here in italy before, i used to be able to "zap" into north african tv stations. some of the music was absolutely wonderful - can't remember the name of the style i liked the best ... from the south, methinks ... its rhythm made me wonder what riding camel would be like - but most of it had TOO MANY strings, gushing away en masse. like drowning in taffy.

i've heard a few of the older rai recordings which were ok but regretfully, i bought a khaled cd and while listening to it - once - had this awful vision of gloomy, half-empty discos stretched all across the maghreb.

John Erlich - 4-13-2007 at 10:25 AM

Hi Udis,

I just wanted to really "connect the dots" on the issue of the rise of commercial music and decline of traditional music. Traditional music has been devastated throughout the world, but nowhere more completely than in the "First World."

In my experience, the average American my age or younger (I'm 41) doesn't even know of the existence of traditional American folk music, let alone actually know songs. Although I was a jazz guitarist as a teen and young adult and play Arabic-style oud now, I was lucky enough to be raised in a family that sang American folk music (mostly in the car!).

In the US, thanks to capitalism and modern technology, our traditional music has been relegated to a tiny subculture (or subcultures). My 2 1/2 yr. old son attends a parent/child music class and the teacher quoted a depressing statistic: The average American knows the lyrics to five (5) songs. If true, it's clear that knowledge of our traditional music is now confined to a very small minority.

I know that, even in Europe and North America, there are areas in which knowledge of traditional music is more intact (Appalacian region of US, Ireland, etc.), but the decline of traditional Arabic (and other Near Eastern musics) being discussed here is clearly part of a much wider global phenomenon.

Capitalism seems to allow for more freedom than state-controlled economic systems, but it's dark side (acknowledged even by Ayn Rand, in "The Fountainhead") is that, under capitalism, the slick, commercial garbage generally wins out over good work and real art. :(

Peace,
Udi John

excentrik - 4-13-2007 at 11:10 AM

I 100% agree with you John- The reason it is called "commercial" is in the word itself. I think it's the difference between supporting a Mom and Pops Cafe (who usually have much better coffee, i.e. "good work and real art") rather than Starbucking it up (commercial garbage).

Not just music, every form of business and media is being eaten up by the ravenous nature of the current capitalist system. But we are partly responsible: too many people are too lazy to buck convenience and support local art, music, media (like KPFA or KPOO for the Bayarea-ites), businesses, etc...

it's a damned shame- and it's Global.:(

tarik

salt thirst

mavrothis - 4-15-2007 at 05:31 AM

Hi my friends,

I have to say, as sad, angry and disappointed you all sound in your posts, which of course makes sense when we are discussing the pathetic state of the majority of our world's musics right now, I still can't help smiling and looking forward to what is to come. Why? I'll tell you why, if you will bear with me a little.

You might be aware of the fact that if a person, or any animal for that matter, is severely deprived of salt in one way or another, he will develop an actual "salt thirst" which not only drives him to consume it, but also changes the way it actually tastes. In the desert, it's been found that under extreme dehydration where both salt and water have been considerably depleted under the hot sun, salt pills when consumed actually tasted "sweet."

Why in the world am I going into this? Well, because that is exactly what has been happening to most music for many decades now. The "salt" is missing. You guys have listed a lot of reasons and examples of how and where this has occurred, and that it is not so much about changing tastes, but it is happening more due to the control a few have over the marketing and distributing of music, and art in general (the fact that it's often more enlightening to watch comedy/parody news shows in the US than the actual news stations is a pathetic fact that says a lot about the state of our world, including the arts).

In Greece (as one example), many things used to contribute to great music - the sense of community in certain pockets of populations, from Italy to Asia Minor. Nature was used as inspiration b/c it was a huge part of daily life. Simpler lives, which in today's standards would be seen as poverty, but which I see as a life which controlled all its aspects - how you got food, shelter, worship, and entertainment, etc, created a different sense of self and community which are heard and felt in most all the old songs. Whether it was life in a village or in an urban area, there was something fundamentally different about it. And this was reflected in the music.

Even today when we do our best to recreate folk music or arts, if we are not in that true context, we are only playing roles like actors who enjoy a great story, rather than true partakers in that tradition. That's one more reason why so many great musical traditions have fallen from the forefront and been overwhelmed by what we see today. We aren't living the lives of those who not only wrote this music, but truly lived it.

So, we have to remember that the true poverty of today's music is not due so much to people's tastes - we all still eat the same things today we did 1000's of years ago - any changes or updates are insignificant compared to what has stayed the same over so long. What's changed is that fewer people/companies are controlling what is "fed" to the people. And believe me, the people are hungry.

In my personal experience, whenever anyone hears the oud they love it. They want more, because not only is it pleasing, but it has that "salt" they are missing. These companies that we complain about do not have what we have, and so even though they have all this money and networks and alliances, we are in many ways more powerful than they are.

So, we should not despair even for a moment. This thread shows how angry we are, how disappointed, and it is like a giant pot that is boiling, preparing a feast for all those hungry people in the world who are missing what we have to offer them. Let's keep the fire of healthy anger and desire going, and let's keep adding salt, because not only is our dish the best dish, it's what the people really want. The only way they'll know this is if we keep playing it and promoting it. If we truly work at our art(s) and also help each other in this in every way we can, the music will not only survive, but flourish and go beautiful places it's never gone before.

In other words, it's time for a revolution.

Now somebody please pass me that meat tenderizer...

mavrothis

spyros mesogeia - 4-18-2007 at 10:48 PM

:bowdown::airguitar:

adamgood - 4-18-2007 at 11:43 PM

Bravo Mav!!!

There is SO much room for it now! Everybody, go! Do it, find the people to do it with. It's not a fight, just be persistent.