bluesyOud - 3-10-2004 at 04:18 AM
hi guys I'm searching information about the history of the makams.some of you help a lot my research with their websites.I really like to know
the name's "saba", "segah",or even "taqsim"(etc.) histories.If you know something please post.
Zulkarnain - 3-10-2004 at 04:29 AM
Hi
I think its Maqam SEGAH or SIKAH (not segax) 
Regards
bluesyOud - 3-10-2004 at 04:38 AM
Zulkarnain thanks man!!!I 've corrected it!!!))
David Parfitt - 3-10-2004 at 05:03 AM
Hi bluesyOud
As far as I know, Saba is an Arabic word describing a type of wind which occurs in the morning - I guess this reflects the 'sad' sound of
the maqam.
Maqam Segah is named after the note on which it is based, i.e. segah or E half-flat, which is the third note of the Arab musical scale. The word
'Segah' (or seh-gah) itself comes from the Persian for 'third' (seh) and 'place/position' (gah) - this reflects the
Persian origin of much of Arab music. In fact, the seven notes of the scale used to all be named after the Persian numerals: Yakgah, Dugah, Segah,
Jahargah, Panjgah, Shashgah, Haftgah (meaning 'first position', 'second position' etc.) However, Yakgah (or Yegah) was later
replaced by Rast - although it is preserved in the name of the (now) rare Maqam Yegah. Panjgah has become Nawa, Shashgah has become Huseyni and
Haftgah has become Awj (or Iraq).
The word 'taqsim' seems to come from the Arabic root q-s-m (e.g. verb qasama - to divide or split), so that the noun taQSiM means
'division' or 'splitting'. Not 100% sure about this though, so it would be good to hear the opinion of a native Arabic speaker.
Hope this is some help.
David
bluesyOud - 3-10-2004 at 05:07 AM
David Parfitt thanks!!!!
mavrothis - 3-10-2004 at 05:49 AM
The word taksim or taqsim is also often attributed by Arabs to the Greek word taksi (TA-ksi), which means 'order'. During the early Golden
Age of the Islamic period, I believe it was popular to name things using ancient Greek words, since at that time many works were being translated in
various areas of study.
take care,
mav
David Parfitt - 3-10-2004 at 06:09 AM
Hi Mav
I just checked my Arabic dictionary and found there is another Arabic root k-s-m (verb 'kasama' - to shape, give form to). The corresponding
noun is 'taksim', meaning 'forming, shaping'. The difference therefore is that the word 'taqsim' uses the Arabic letter
'qaaf' (q) whereas 'taksim' uses the letter 'kaaf' (k).
The definition of 'taksim' seems closer to the actual musical meaning than that of 'taqsim', so I don't really understand why
Arabs use the latter. Maybe there was a mix-up some time in the past? (I vaguely remember some examples of Arabs mixing up the two forms of
'h' or 's' in certain words).
The Greek origin sounds really interesting. The only problem is that Arabic nouns such as 'taksim', 'tartib', 'tanwin'
are formed in a standard way from the three-letter verbal root such as k-s-m etc. (i.e. using the template 'ta_ _ i _'). I suppose there
could have been some reverse engineering, so that 'taksim' was absorbed from the Greek 'taksi' FIRST, and then a verbal root was
created afterwards?? (Or maybe Greek words are formed from a root in the same way?) The plot thickens!
Best wishes
David
Zulkarnain - 3-10-2004 at 06:25 AM
Hi guys
Help!!!..I lost!!
David Parfitt - 3-10-2004 at 06:43 AM
Hi Zul
Can I ask why your mood is 'lamb cutlet'? Is this a rare maqam that I have never heard of before? 
Best wishes
David
Zulkarnain - 3-10-2004 at 07:04 AM
Hi
Dave...dont bother about the mood hehehe Im always hungry...and thats
currently my fav meal-if u in Central London dont forget to check oud HALAL food restaurant in Edgware Rd. (they serve the best Arabic Lamb Cutlet)
Enjoy!
Brian Prunka - 3-10-2004 at 08:55 AM
regarding the origin of "taqsim": I've been told by several native speakers that it does mean "division", and it got this
name because a taqsim would always be in between the various sections of a suite in traditional performances.
mavrothis - 3-10-2004 at 10:25 AM
This is a cool discussion. Dave, I think your explanation makes the most sense. Interestingly I've seen the Greek root explanation in two
Arabic CD covers, and several books. But it's no surprise that there are multiple possibilities mentioned b/c so many sources, whether books or
people, rarely agree.
Thanks for explaining all this stuff!
Take care,
mav
bluesyOud - 3-10-2004 at 01:52 PM
Thanks guys for the information!!!
I want more
I want more
spyros mesogeia - 3-10-2004 at 03:30 PM
Dear friend,
a friend of mine told me once that saba in Turkish means morning....If that helped you than I am glad
Regards
bluesyOud - 3-10-2004 at 04:01 PM
thanks spyros any information is useful!!!
bluesyOud - 3-10-2004 at 04:51 PM
well I found something interesting about saba.
biblical Sheba kingdom in pre-Islamic southwestern Arabia, frequently mentioned in the Bible (notably in the story of King Solomon and the Queen of
Sheba) and variously cited by ancient Assyrian, Greek, and Roman writers from about the 8th century BC to about the 5th century AD. Its capital, at
least in the middle period, was Ma'rib (q.v.), which lies 75 miles (120 km) east of present-day San'a', in Yemen.
so does saba has something to do with sheba the godess?
David Parfitt,I also found tha you are right
about the pleasant morning wind.
I'm starting to believe that Sheba,saba(makam)and the wind are connected.
If someone finds something please post.
http://www.britannica.com
David Parfitt - 3-11-2004 at 01:34 AM
Dear bluesyOud
As far as I know, the Turkish word 'sabah' for morning comes from the Arabic word 'sabah' (a lot of Turkish words derive from
Arabic). However, I don't think this has any relation to the word 'saba' for the east wind (and the maqam).
The reason I say this is that 'sabah' (morning) has the root s-b-h, whereas 'saba' has the completely different root s-b-w (with
the associated verb 'saba', meaning 'to rejuvenate'). Therefore, I think the stress is on the rejuvenating effects of the
'saba' wind rather than the fact that it may occur in the morning!
Regarding the Queen of Sheba, I don't think there is any connection at all. Sheba (also known as Saba, home of the Sabaeans) was an ancient
kingdom in SW Arabia (now Yemen). This name 'Saba' came via the Greek 'Saba' (probably in Biblical times), which in turn came from
the Arabic 'Saba` ' or Hebrew 'Shebaa' (which is closer to the alternative name 'Sheba'). The Arabic root of this word
'Saba` ' is s-b-hamza, which is again completely different to that of the 'saba' wind.
Hope this all makes sense.
David
bluesyOud - 3-11-2004 at 12:32 PM
Dear Dave,
In greece we call "saba" us "sabah".
So maybe this made me believe that the
wind was named after Sheba and the
makam was named after the wind in
order to link the emotion that a pleasant morning wind represends with the character of the specific makam.
Ofcourse all these are just thoughts!!!
I'm still searching!!!!!
winds
BeOudiful - 3-15-2004 at 03:48 AM
hi yuall,
on the way back from Taksim early a.m. the other day, the morning adhan, ie call to prayer, was yet again in the mode Saba.
Saba is, i think, the morning wind that comes in around the fajr/subh prayer. Early arabic alchemical treatises on the winds would classify them
according to their primary qualties (hot, cold, dry, moist) and by quarter/directions they came from. This would make it easier for them to be
associated with the maqamat, as the maqamat are also attributed with these temporal and temperamental qualities.
some say the maqamat system found its earliest theory developing from the calls to prayer and different tajweed/quran recitation modes etc, but at the
same time all the syriac and greek treatises on the sciences incl. music were being translated, so something like that. more later **
bluesyOud - 3-15-2004 at 09:06 AM
Beaoudiful I'm waiting for new things!!!