Mike's Oud Forums

A great new microphone for recording oud.

Lintfree - 7-11-2007 at 05:05 AM

I did a recording session recently for a film score and the engineer used a tiny mic made by B+K (Bruel and Kjaer) I think I spelled the names right. It was tiny, big enough to insert through the main rosette but he put it on the top of the oud with a double stick tape arrangement, a tiny stand. You know how good an oud sounds when a microphone is right next to the face of the oud, as close as it can get? But then you move and bump it? This puts the capsule a few millimeters from the surface of the top and you can move all you want. It's a new technology as far as the capsule goes and sounds huge. It was used with a stereo mic (AKGC24)about three feet in front of the main rosette set in an XY pattern. But it was the B+K that blew me away. A huge golden sound with a minimum of string noise. These run about $500. and are a condenser mics. The sound was so much better than anything I've ever heard that I thought I would pass it along. If this interests you I will have more exact info soon. I also have a lot of info on various reasonably priced recording gear and mic techniques especially for the oud and saz. (A cigarette pack sized $300. flash disk recorder that sounds like Sony Pro-Tools!) :wavey: D.L.

Multi Kulti - 7-11-2007 at 05:40 AM

Hi David

Is this by any chance the company you mean?

http://www.bksv.com/3035.asp

and any infos are welcome.Recording and oud is always a big subject...

Nikos


P.S. Until now the best sounding experience i had was with the (probably) most expensive micro there is on the market.A Brauner...the sound difference comparing to a recording session with a top-notch neumann was very big. You can see it there http://www.musik-service.de/Recording-Mikrofon-Brauner-VMA-prx39574...

SamirCanada - 7-11-2007 at 05:46 AM

Hey lintfree. I saw a oud player use the simmilar setup at the National Arts Center here in ottawa. it sounded deep and true on his Sukar oud. And the beuty like you said is that you can move any way you want!! he didnt have rosettes in the sound holes so the little mic and mini stand where clamped to the hole. beats a piezo pic-up

it was the player from this group called back strings.
trully amazing players from montreal.

http://www.backstrings.com/

link to a beautyful bayati peice

http://www.backstrings.com/Audio/BayatiAna.mp3

MatthewW - 7-11-2007 at 08:39 AM

lintfree, I'd also be interested in the exact model B&K you are talking about for the oud. sounds pretty cool. cheers.

corridoio - 7-11-2007 at 01:04 PM

b&k makes misure instruments and microphones, if you look for their microphones you have to go to http://www.dpamicrophones.com (it's the same factory),
you can also look at shoeps (great mics!), they are in the same range of quality and philosophy of microphones..
In general these microphones (dpa and shoeps) are recognized and used for their clear, true image but don't forget that these mics are usually connected to beautifull preamplifiers (neve, cadac, millenia, avalon and others that costs usually much more than the mic)
so.. player- instrument-room-mic-preamplifier-converters-workstation (hardware, software).. it's a long chain, in decreasing importance, in my opinion..

when you recorded, maybe you used a miniature micro from the 4060 serie of dpa(b&k) (omnidirectional pattern)?
I used it to mic violins in recordings with a special paste direct on the face of the instrument (like the one that comes with the shertler c-ducer contact micro). In italy it's in commerce a similar paste uhu patafix that makes that work without ruin the face of the instrument but I used only with violins, viola and cello, never with unfinished instruments like ouds..
anyway, b&k for the near sound and akg c24for the room sound!!! you are a lucky guy!!!
ale.

Lintfree - 7-12-2007 at 02:02 AM

Multi - That's the company but I didn't see the model we used advertised. Let me find the exact model number and all the info. I'll post it when I get it.

This was not a contact mic but a small condenser about 10mm long and 5mm around that clipped into a tiny stand that could be stuck onto the top of the oud with double stick tape.
The engineer that worked on the project said that they were a new thing. The studio where we recorded this had evry kind of microphone ever made it seemed. But these B+K's were his. The other part of the sound he got was the AKG C-24, stereo tube condensor mic. that had two large diaphrams, basically two C-12's. He put the C-24 into a figure 8 or XY configuration three feet away and the B+K was (I think) omnidirectional or at least in a cardioid pattern. So it basically was an "MS" pattern, picking up the instrument from three directions. Left, right and center. The center part of the setup being the little mic right next to the soundboard. As`I remember there was a phasing thing he ran into (That happens when you use 3 mics) that he fixed. Then........El Huge! The Rapakousios that ate Chicago! I'll get the model number because I want to get one when I get the money. This little mic was SO much better than anything I've ever heard that I had to pass it on.

Corridoio was right about the pre-amp. It was a Neve mic pre in the board he used. And a good preamp always helps the sound. But the main thing about this mic was the proximity to the top of the oud............................3mm from the face. Can't get any closer than that. And sticking the little stand to an unfinished spruce top was no problem.

Multi Kulti - 7-12-2007 at 06:47 AM

By the way congratulations on your Rapakousios oud...it is really really beautiful...i saw it lately in dimitris' website...

Nikos

Lintfree - 7-12-2007 at 07:24 PM

Okay now, here's the microphone info. First of all you go to the following website;
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/4061BM/
The designation for the microphone is DPA SMK 4061. As for it being a B+K as I was told it doesn't seem to be a B+K after all. Maybe made by them for these folks? In any case there it is. They have some other mics and pre-amps too. But that's the little devil they show in the picture.

Multi - I was playing it today after putting new strings on it and tuning it to EABEAD.
Dangerous sound pressure levels. Such an amazing instrument and the workmanship is the best. Dimitris is very easy to work with too and totally reliable. I bought that oud by looking at the picture of another oud on his website and deciding that it sounded good then ordered one. Boy, was I right about that! Sometimes Fate works in our favor.
Cool runnings. D.L.

Benjamin - 7-12-2007 at 10:42 PM

great microphones but they cost more than the ouds..

Lintfree - 7-13-2007 at 10:46 PM

True but it's not so much the microphones themselves but the way they are mounted. There are Audio Technica and AKG electorette microphones that could do the same thing maybe even better. The trick is keeping the microphone close to the top and since it is small and light it doesn't affect the movement of the top. I once found out that two different microphone companies both used a third companies capsules and just put them in different housings. A cool little stand could be carved out of wood. Rosewood would look good.

And for the stage:

The cure for the feedback that we all know and hate seems to be a thing called "rejection", which means that the mic only picks up sound that is close to it. Electrovoice used to make a dynamic mic that picked up within two inches and rejected everything else (the oud monitor for instance)(the drummer who is too loud!). Sony used to make lapel mic capsules for everyone and they were really good sounding and cheap. The key is the little stand that sticks to the top and aims the mic at the top and keeps it there. See what I'm getting at?
Anyway, for me it's an on-going project and I've been at it since the 60's. This little mic thing is the best idea I've seen to date. We'll figure it out. (Remember that some soundmen are from Satan and have been sent to make you sound BAD!!) Lintfree

eliot - 7-13-2007 at 11:42 PM

Not a new microphone - it's one of the most popular microphones that has been used by concert tapers/live stereo sound recordists, and is also frequently used by top-tier sound engineers for all kinds of acoustic instrument duties.

DPA/B&K mics are great...

Lintfree - 7-14-2007 at 12:31 PM

Hi Eliot. - I know it's been around for a while. I know that the DPA/B+K's are used for violins but I've never seen it used on an oud, stuck to the top pointing at the top on a cute little stand. They usually had clips or were just taped on. That's what I was referring to when I tagged it as being "new". New for me. Dick Rosmini first introduced me to B+K microphones back in the 80's, the tube version which to this day are the best sounding mics ever.

For those of you who aren't familiar with the term "concert tapers": The mic I used is really small which is probably one of the reasons concert tapers use them to record performances from the audience without anyone knowing that they are taping. You could use a stereo pair of them on your baseball cap or taped to a pair of glasses and run them down your shirt to one of those chip recorders that are out now and you'll get an entire live C.D. of the artist you're recording for free. Stealth recording it's called. It's like a sport here in the U.S. Some artists allow this to be done and others do not like it at all.

eliot - 7-14-2007 at 03:19 PM

I think most active performing oud players should buy one of these (DPA/B&K 4060 or 4061) to take with them to concerts (particularly since most "world music" venues have lack of similarly well-suited microphones for stage duty). Maybe oud concerts would start sounding good for a change...

Cyberquills - 7-14-2007 at 06:18 PM

would pass it along. If this interests you I will have more exact info soon. I also have a lot of info on various reasonably priced recording gear and mic techniques especially for the oud and saz. (A cigarette pack sized $300. flash disk recorder that sounds like Sony Pro-Tools!) D.L.

Hey Lintfree

Can you tell me more about the recording gear you mentioned? I'm keen to record my stuff and have NO idea where to start. YOur advice would be most welcome.

Cheers

CQ

Lintfree - 7-15-2007 at 01:45 AM

The flash disk recorder/player is made by several companies and it sounds fantastic. They're small like Cyberquills said but sound big and make great recordings. Hank Levin bought one for about $300. that has two built-in mics already in an XY pattern. I would ask to see a flash disk recorder by Roland or Sony. The one Hank has is some strange brand I don't remember but he got it at Best Buy. I'll go looking on Monday.

Waking up at 4AM and being able to just switch on a little machine and record the best thing I will ever play and have it sound as good as a big studio for $300. seems like a good thing to me. How's things in Perth? Playing down under at a guitar festival soon. Adelaide. Simon Shaheen will be there. Never met him. Hope to get some pointers from him. Goodonya. Lint

paulO - 7-15-2007 at 08:09 AM

Hi Lint,

Check out http://www.oade.com/, they have the better (more bucks) flash type recorders (Fostex, Sony, Marantz, Teac, Edirol). The less expensive stuff is by Edirol (R-9), Zoom (this has the X-Y stereo pair), and M-Audio.

Cheers..PaulO

Greg - 7-15-2007 at 11:08 PM

Thanks for starting this thread Lintfree.
The concept of using a small condenser (with adjustable boom) mounted directly to the face is great.
I have previously tried the AKG C411 condenser, but that was a waste of money. It required way too much EQ to get a result that could best be described as fairly ordinary.
I normally use a MXL 991 small diaphragm condenser mic. (stand mounted) and that gives excellent results at reasonable levels before feedback (in a quiet environment)

But thanks to this thread, I have just tried out a wireless headset mic (with boom) and temporarily mounted it on the face with double-sided tape. The results were exceptional, even at high volume. I found that placing the mic capsule about 10mm from the face, midway between the large and small soundhole gave the most pleasing results. Of course it can be mounted directly over the large sound hole, but that was a bit too "live" for my liking.

Regards,

Greg

Cyberquills - 7-16-2007 at 01:07 AM

Hi Lint

Ta for the information on the recorders. I'll check it out ASAP. Oh! Adelaide, eh? Nice. Let us all know how your time with Simon goes!

Perth is goin' well!

By the way I checked the link for mike's you mentioned but couldn't find the gizmo that supports it?

Cheers

CQ

MatthewW - 7-18-2007 at 12:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lintfree
True but it's not so much the microphones themselves but the way they are mounted.....The key is the little stand that sticks to the top and aims the mic at the top and keeps it there. See what I'm getting at?
Anyway, for me it's an on-going project and I've been at it since the 60's.

Hi Lintfree. I've been looking at the thread and the link for this mic-http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/4061BM/

I have a couple of questions- If this is a condenser mic, does it mean it requires a battery? You mention that it has a little stand that sticks to the top and aims the mic at the top and keeps it there. Could you clarify for me please if this means the mic clamps on, or uses some form of adhesive? Would you have any photos you could post showing how it is attached to the top of an oud? Does it hang or attach to a soundhole (with or without a rosette) in a secure manner? thanks!

corridoio - 7-18-2007 at 08:41 AM

hi MatthewW
the dpa 4060 or 4061 need phantom power (48v) from the preamp (or mixer), no battery..
if you look to dpamicrophones.com there are different kit for mounting on differents instruments (mini pincers and other)
but like I said before you can also use a special inert adhesive putty, whit it you can position the microphone everywhere on the face so you can experiment for different sounds
my only doubt is how much this may stop the vibration of the face..

Greg - 7-18-2007 at 06:32 PM

Further to my above post about using a modified headset mic, I have now changed the arrangement a little, so that the base is mounted on the bowl, rather than the face.
I have attached some pictures showing this attached to my "picnic" oud by way of double sided tape that provides a little padding and therefore isolation from the body vibrations. I have used this same tape on instruments for several years and it has never left a mark when removed.
A rubber suction cup would probably be even better.

I have this mic. plugged into a uhf beltpack transmitter and it works extremely well. This one is a cheap Chinese mic, but I would imagine the results would be even better with a high quality one. But even with this cheap mic. the results are better than I have been able to achieve with any other method.

Now, to try it out on my Türünz oud :bounce:

Regards,

Greg

SamirCanada - 7-18-2007 at 08:15 PM

hey Greg nice looking setup! especialy if it works decently it could be a break trough in getting good sound with a low buget.

I have a question though. Say Iam playing with a rather big and powerfull lebanese wedding band. Iam sure you have a feel for what Iam saying... keyboards and heavy percussions.
would this work? how about feedback problems? how about picking up too much sound from the rest of the instruments?

thanks

Greg - 7-19-2007 at 04:13 AM

Hi Samir, these headset microphones are designed for close mic tehniques. i.e. to be placed very close to the user's mouth. So it is unlikely to pickup much other than the close source of sound; In this case, the oud.
I have not used it yet in a live situation, but I have used it in our small practice room, which is equipped with a 300 watt stereo mixer/amp feeding a pair of JBL EON15 15" 2-way Speakers. It is abundantly clear that this this mic system produces way more level before feedback than using any stand mic that I have tried in the practice room. And that includes super directional shotgun mics. And it does not suddenly "take off" like most of the "contact" transducers I have tried, including the AKG C411. It requires much less EQ and produces a much truer sound than I have experienced with any of the contact transducers.

I think if you had to compete with a raft of electronic instruments and a kit drummer, you'd need to go to a solid body electric oud, or fill your acoustic oud with foam and use an under saddle pickup system, like the RMC or Fishman.

If, like me, you prefer the amplified sound of an acoustic oud, the above system is worth looking at.

Regards,

Greg

SamirCanada - 7-19-2007 at 05:07 AM

I think I might use it in combination with a contact pickup.
I probably will be able to compete.

by the way the other oud player in the band plays a sukar electric. (sounds like crap btw)
actualy it sounds like a bad electric guitar.

so our sounds dont exactly compete in terms of quality.
thanks for the info.

rebetostar - 7-19-2007 at 11:26 AM

Hello,
Our violinist uses the DPA instument mic kit 4061:
http://aes.harmony-central.com/115AES/Content/DPA/PR/IMK4061.html
I think they changed the name of the company from B & K to "Danish Pro Audio". Anyways it sounds totally awesome.. we tried it on bouzouki and santour as well and it's great.
The flash recorder Lintfree mentioned may be the Zoom H4..the price is right and it's got good reviews. The Sony PCM-D1 looks rad too but for six times the price!! I'll buy the Zoom.

Re: Sukar electric ouds, I know what you mean Samir.. since I got mine, I've had the pegs replaced and put the Aquila Turkish light strings on (Jameel's advice) and they rule. I also lined the inside of the electronics cavity with automotive muffler tape, since the electronics are not very well shielded from e-m noise. With those upgrades and running the Sukar through a Pod XT live effects unit, I'm able to get a decent tone from mine.. not the same as a purely acoustic oud, but nice. I'll post a clip soon. Another thing I may do in future is replace the pickups (nothing more than two piezo buzzers, each cut into 1/3s and each runnning in series, so you get 6 pickups, split 3 and 3 for seperate control of treble and bass strings). Actually it's not that bad of a system. Probably a fishman would sound better though.

rebetostar - 8-2-2007 at 11:02 AM

Whoa!
Zoom just released a new flash recorder, the H2:
http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1916

It looks like an even better recorder, and CHEAPER! Than the H4. Minus the guitar inputs and multitrack/FX functions..which most people probably weren't using anyways..
Sweeeeeet!

Lintfree - 8-4-2007 at 08:14 PM

The Najarian electric is the way to go, no replacing anything. His transducer system is better than a Fishman, I think, and I've tried most all of them. The model that looks like a real Karibyan is the kind, Brother. I run mine through a Seymour Duncan DTar preamp. Sounds like a giant accoustic oud.........Oudzilla!!

The other thing..........................the other thing is a little amp made for accoustic instruments called an Ultra Sound. Very light. Solid state. Closed back. Inexpensive as amps like this go; paid $400. for it. 100 watts, 2 8inch coaxial speakers like a Tannoy has. Holy hampster poop is that a good sound. A musically rewarding thing. I run half the signal through the amp and half through the DTar then into the P.A. system. Oudzilla with time mis-alignment.

And the Zoom recorder is the one.

I'm up in The Ozarks in Missouri at a music festival with the bugs and the heat. 90 degrees with 80% humidity. Going to play "Copperhead Road" on the oud. I think I just swallowed a fly. Later. Lintfree