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Oud features

kuharido - 3-13-2004 at 01:04 PM

Hey guys ,

I'd like to have a oud built for me sometime in the near future , hopefully . I was wondering if there are any cool nifty little things i can ask for , nice features =) . here is my choice of woods , please let me know what you think .

Bowl : rosewood
Fingerboard/pegs : ebony
Top : spurce

I will probably visit Mr.shehata if i ever get down to getting this oud . I keep hearing good things about his ouds , the sound , ease of playability(very important to me as my wrist isnt 100%) .

Thanks !

Adel - 3-13-2004 at 02:06 PM

Hi Kuharido,
That depend in what you want from the oud.
Rosewood and ebony are very loud and sharp sound, if you want a warmer sound your choice will be Paduk or seycamore;
Cedar is a very good choice too, but in Arab countries we do not have good cedar any more so spruce is very good.
Pegbox,Keys are in Ebony that is good too.
If you are going to Cairo, you must visit all oud makers, not only ONE oud maker, I understand people saying this is a great oud maker, but the best judge is yourself, go and visit oud makers and try their oud and you might find what you are looking for, if you feel the oud , then it's yours.
Do not look only for big names, look for ouds before anything, do not look down at any oud, play every oud you see and hear with positive thought, an oud which might look very ugly to your eyes might be the oud which you after.
Make a budget for yourself.
Do not think an oud which is deliverd to your home address is the greatest oud in the world, because if I have the greatest oud in the world I will not sell it to you.
Good luck,
Adel

Ronny Andersson - 3-13-2004 at 02:20 PM

> Cedar is a very good choice too, but in >Arab countries we do not have good >cedar any more so spruce is very good.

Indeed! The cedar top is what I prefer on classic ouds but where to find nowadays?
I have some soundboards of cedar and it's a tonewood treasure.

kuharido - 3-13-2004 at 02:47 PM

About Cedar or spruce , i keep hearing both are good and have their sound . I am not sure .

Also about rosewood and paduk , isn tpaduk a cheaper wood ? I know cheaper doesnt neccessarily mean less quality sound , maybe different , but i think rosewood is always used on quality instruments no ?

Adel - 3-13-2004 at 03:00 PM

Hi,
Let me say something,
It will be easier for you and me,
if I want to record in a studio, I will not use Rosewood oud, I will use a Paduk or Sycamore oud, because it's warmer.
if I want a loud oud , very clean and clear tone , I will use a Rosewood oud.

Cedar is very warm, but you are not going to find neither in egypt or Lebanon good cedar top,so it's safer to go for spruce.
May be Ronny can help here.
Adel

Zulkarnain - 3-13-2004 at 07:21 PM

Hi Adel

Does the weight count between cedar and spruce. Spruce seems lighter.

Regards

Ronny Andersson - 3-13-2004 at 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zulkarnain
Hi Adel

Does the weight count between cedar and spruce. Spruce seems lighter.

Regards

Why do you think so?

kuharido - 3-14-2004 at 03:13 AM

paduk , rosewood , paduk , rosewood .... i'm confused , i want warmth , but i also want clarity and loudness . Mr.Shehata probably has some ready made ouds in his shop , so maybe i'll try a paduk and a rosewood and then decide , i understand different aspects come in play , but i'll have a more general idea .

I am also looking for tiny cool features , nice rosette ideas . Like one of my friends (excellent oud player) had an iraqi oud with and eagle on the back (the bowl) , very cool .

Zulkarnain - 3-14-2004 at 04:43 AM

Hi Ronny

....as my turkish oud (spruce soundboard) seems to be lighter than my Arabic oud (cedar top)

Salam

Ronny Andersson - 3-14-2004 at 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zulkarnain
Hi Ronny

....as my turkish oud (spruce soundboard) seems to be lighter than my Arabic oud (cedar top)

I think it's the bowl that carry the weight.

Zulkarnain - 3-14-2004 at 05:19 AM

Hi

Both use same wood for the bowl..Im not sure maybe the size..?

Regards

Ronny Andersson - 3-14-2004 at 05:22 AM

I have some cedar tops and for me is it impossible to feel any difference between them and spruce. Some low quality ouds have to thick tops and also bracing.

Zulkarnain - 3-14-2004 at 05:24 AM

I agree!

Adel - 3-14-2004 at 06:55 AM

Hi Kuharido,
you said you are going to Egypt.
Play and test all ouds and then buy what you like.
Salamat,
Adel

kuharido - 3-14-2004 at 07:03 AM

Hey Adel , yes hopefully i'll go there around the summer inshallah . I know of a few places , and i'll check Mr.Shehata cause mostly i will get my oud from there , the other places i know sell cheap ouds for tourists and such . I'd be glad if someone can recommend good places .

It would be so cool if Journyman or John beloved could post a sound snippet , nothing too fancy , just a couple of notes =) . Thanks

Adel - 3-14-2004 at 07:06 AM

OK, very good.
Adel

kuharido - 3-14-2004 at 07:12 AM

I just noticed something . This is on Mike's oud page :

This oud was purchased from Mr. Fathi Amin
Ebony/Rosewood/Sycamore Body with Spruce top

http://www.mikeouds.com/images/fathi1.jpg

different wood used to build the oud ? how would it sound ?

Adel - 3-14-2004 at 07:17 AM

it sound very good
but stay with us to listen to a sycamore oud
Adel

Mike - 3-14-2004 at 08:51 AM

Hi Kuharido,

Adel asked me to put this video up that we recorded when we met in Egypt. It is an example of the sound of a sycamore oud. He didn't let me put this on the Video Page of this website before, but lucky you asked all these questions so we could all see his great playing, even though he is not that impressed with it. Go figure! :shrug:

Click here to download the video.

Enjoy!

Ronny Andersson - 3-14-2004 at 09:14 AM

The oud Adel played on is typical for an oud with a bowl made of sycamore. I've played this type of oud with bowl made of the oriental sycamore - Platanus orientalis.The oud had a very clear bas register that was not so strong as it uses to be and the sound was little bit weaker than an identical model built of Indian rosewood - palisander. Suitable for chamber music and with a vocalist.This is one of the traditional woods for the oud making! Our ideals have changed.

Sycamore oud

LeeVaris - 3-14-2004 at 03:31 PM

Adel's oud has a very distinctive sound ( perhaps due to his wonderfully mature technique ) Anyone have pictures of the back of this or similar ouds? Sycamore is a light colored wood right? Is it more typical that sycamore is combined with a darker wood like walnut - alternating light and dark?

BTW - I'm no expert but Adel's taqsim seems to be particularly well constructed intro- development & close... very, very elegant - beautiful.

mavrothis - 3-14-2004 at 05:28 PM

Yeah, Adel's playing is really great, and seeing him playing in the video brought back great memories of listening to him on our trip.

You're right Lee, the wood is light in color, pale yellow.

This was really a great sounding oud, with really strong bass and balanced tone.

Kuharido, a lot of great woods have been mentioned in this thread. But don't forget about Mahogany and Walnut, they're great woods and yet relatively inexpensive.

Take care,

mav

Zulkarnain - 3-14-2004 at 09:04 PM

Hi

Mav..u very lucky to exprience those stuff while in Cairo..I dont think I have the same luck when Im there a month from now

Salam

david - 3-14-2004 at 11:23 PM

:xtreme:

Man Adel seeing you play is insane (no disrespect its a saying here in the states) please share more videos of your playing with us Adel!!! :xtreme:

one of your fans,
david.

Adel - 3-14-2004 at 11:46 PM

Thank you evrybody.
This is the cheapest oud which I bought in my life, made from the cheapest wood on the earth, yet it sounds nice.
I know the oud does not look nice but......
I bought this oud and went straight on the wall....
Have fun everybody,
salamat,
Adel

kuharido - 3-15-2004 at 05:35 AM

Hey guys thanks .

Mr.Adel , thanks for asking mike to post the video

Mike , thanks for posting the video !

mavrothis , yes i didnt forget walnut , it one of the cheaper woods but it should sound good . In fact i've kind of narrowed down my choices to either Palisander (Indian Rosewood) or Walnut . The latter is about a couple of hundred dollars cheaper .

As for the Fingerboard andpegs , i am pretty convinceed with ebony

Ronny Andersson - 3-15-2004 at 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kuharido
Hey guys thanks .

Mr.Adel , thanks for asking mike to post the video

Mike , thanks for posting the video !

mavrothis , yes i didnt forget walnut , it one of the cheaper woods but it should sound good . In fact i've kind of narrowed down my choices to either Palisander (Indian Rosewood) or Walnut . The latter is about a couple of hundred dollars cheaper .

As for the Fingerboard andpegs , i am pretty convinceed with ebony

kuharido, before you order a custom built oud, you have to listen and play on different models and by different makers. The different woods we have been discussing make different sounding ouds. There are lot of other aspects like shape and size for the bowl and mensur.
Ebony for fingerboard is a perfect choice since rosewoods are to soft for a fretless instrument.

kuharido - 3-15-2004 at 10:37 AM

Hey Ronny , yes i guess , can we talk more about it ? I want an egyptian style oud , i am not sure what size should i go with , or shape for that matter . Sorry i am asking a lot but there isnt much resources about this on the net , and i already searched the forums . (The excelent forums let me add) .

Also , can anyone please email me Fathi Amine's workshop contact iunfo/Address ?

Ronny Andersson - 3-16-2004 at 10:41 AM

Take a look here Egypt

kuharido - 3-17-2004 at 01:56 PM

Thanks a lot for the link , very interesting read , guys check it ,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
The oud Adel played on is typical for an oud with a bowl made of sycamore. I've played this type of oud with bowl made of the oriental sycamore - Platanus orientalis.The oud had a very clear bas register that was not so strong as it uses to be and the sound was little bit weaker than an identical model built of Indian rosewood - palisander. Suitable for chamber music and with a vocalist.This is one of the traditional woods for the oud making! Our ideals have changed.

Ronny can you please tell me more about the difference in those 2 identical models ? Its a matter of taste but which did you prefer ? I dont want something too sharp/bright/twangy , but i also dont want anythign too blurred

Ronny Andersson - 3-17-2004 at 02:12 PM

Quote:

[

Sure, both had the same bowl dimensions and the one made of Plane tree (sycamore) was unusual for me when the sound was a surprise for me. I had also the opportunity to play a Bashir oud made of the same wood. This Bashir had a standard shallow projective Bashir bowl, and it was surprisingly weak sounding and it was a singer who had ordered it! The Indian rosewood (same as Palisander) had much better projection and fuller register with clear basses that was not dominating or blurred over the trebles with a good penetrating top c and f . Mahogany is also a weaker sounding wood but not as Plane tree. I prefer rosewood for the music I play.

Woods

wfspark - 3-26-2004 at 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Adel
Hi Kuharido,
you said you are going to Egypt.
Play and test all ouds and then buy what you like.
Salamat,
Adel

Hello Adell. What do you think of wallnut? I've seen some wallnut ouds at Yehia's Nile shop store. Do wallnut ouds have brighter tone? are they any good? Thanks.

William F. Sparks

Eraydin ouds.

wfspark - 3-26-2004 at 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kuharido
Thanks a lot for the link , very interesting read , guys check it ,

Quote:

Hello Kuharido. I have another sight you can go to for good quality ouds. Go to http://www.eraydinsazevi.com.tr. Mr. Haluk Eraydin, one of the members of this forum, makes good quality ouds. His ouds maintain consistant quality even in the beginner moddles. His ouds have a nice deep bowl made of either wenge wood or purple rosewood. Mine is the learner two moddle, which has a rosewood bowl with spruce top. To me, it's got a good penetrating high regester, and a nice warm bass and mid range. Let me know what you think.

William F. Sparks

Ps, Most of the quality instruments I've seen are rosewood instruments. The only thing I wouldn't get in rosewood is bagpipes. The suck to crap!

Simple Harmonic Oscillator

Elie Riachi - 4-9-2004 at 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronny Andersson

Quote:

Originally posted by Zulkarnain
Hi Adel

Does the weight count between cedar and spruce. Spruce seems lighter.

Regards

Why do you think so?

I would think so, theoritically at least, but I haven't experimented with that many Ouds.
Here is why I think so: The sound board couples with the end of the string at the bridge. As the string vibrates it executes what is called Simple Harmonic Motion and causes the sound board to oscillate also. The natural frequency of oscillation for a Simple Harmonic Oscillator is given by f=(1/2pi)Sqrt(k/m), where m is mass. And k is a constant which is kind of a measure of the flexibilty of the board.

Therefore, I would think that the heavier the sound board material is, the louder it will resonate at lower frequencies (bass). And the less stiff the sound board material is, the louder it would tend to resonate at higher frequencies.

I am interested in knowing if what, you good people on this forum who own, play and/or have tried different types of Ouds, have experienced, agrees or disagrees with my analysis.

Oud Physics

spyrosc - 4-9-2004 at 09:46 PM

The Physics of a vibrating surface (the soundboard) is a little more complicated than that especially when the bracing comes into play.

First of all the simple formula you are using is for a "particle" simple harmonic oscillator. In a modified form it applies to the strings (you have to worry about linear mass density there) but that's not what's true for a vibrating plate.

Also are you confusing loudness (amplitude) with frequency ?

Faruk Turunz the well-known Turkish oud maker has been doing some research on the matter and you might be interested to look up his site. Do a Search for "Faruk Turunz".

Oud Physics

Elie Riachi - 4-10-2004 at 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spyrosc
The Physics of a vibrating surface (the soundboard) is a little more complicated than that especially when the bracing comes into play.

First of all the simple formula you are using is for a "particle" simple harmonic oscillator. In a modified form it applies to the strings (you have to worry about linear mass density there) but that's not what's true for a vibrating plate.

Also are you confusing loudness (amplitude) with frequency ?

Hello,

It was not my intention to say that it is that simple (eventhough the word Simple is there), but I was trying to give kind of a ball park approximation which contains a mass element. And of course the Bracing in all of its aspects plays a huge role in the sound. However the mass and density of the sound board material plays a role also. My approach is to look at the effects of each element seperately the combine these effects properly.

As for the loudness and frequency I never stated that they are the same. The concept that I am talking about is: the string drives the vibration in the sound sound board. And the closer the natural frequency of the sound board is to the driving frequency, the more conditions for resonance become favorable so we get larger loudness or amplitude at such string frequency.

I assume you are an Oud maker. Are you saying that the material of the sound board doesn't play any role in the sound charactaristics of the stringed instrument?

And if it does, can you lend us some insight based on your Oud building experience, of how does it affect it (i.e. Denser enforces lower frequencies or the other way, etc...)?

Thanks

Oud Physics

spyrosc - 4-10-2004 at 06:07 PM

My dear Elie,

I'm sorry if I sounded in any way unfriendly. No I'm not an oud maker, and nowhere near an expert. I'm an "oud experimenter and repairman". I like to collect old and broken ouds which I then take apart and try to understand the construction techniques of the old masters (similar to what Dr. Oud was doing many years ago). In another lifetime I was a Physicist and Engineer so I try to analyze things like you.

I'm also trying to experiment with alternative bracings. I have some ideas which are "off the beaten path" that may turn out to be promising (I hope).

What we have here is forced standing waves in a plate (the soundboard) that is tied down around the edges and has holes in it, which complicate the analysis. There is some symmetry and I'm working on that.

I apologize if I misread your post concerning frequency and amplitude, of course the mass (actually the density) of the soundboard is important, but the difficult part is its "stiffness".

When I have some reliable results I will share them with all. The desirable end is to come up with better sound for our beloved instrument. I don't have any other ambition.

Please feel free to communicate with me with your ideas.

Peace
Spyros C.

Cool!

Elie Riachi - 4-10-2004 at 10:07 PM

Hello Spyros,

Cool dude, my background is in physics also and just started to get interested in tackling the physics of oud. Unfortunately, I do not have access to many different ouds and haven't seen the inside of one in real life. Well, I did very minor improvements to mine such as replacing the plastic rosettes and re-reaming the peg holes and making new pegs. So I did look inside with a mirror at the bracing pattern when I had the rosette out, but I do not realy have a quatitative way to judge an oud. My oud has a sticker inside which says that it is made by Yaseen Ali Khalifah, Jopar, Demascus, Syria and I know nothing about this maker. My brother who gave me the oud as a gift in Lebanon, said that he didn't spend a lot of money for it and that it was a student model. The oud sounds okay as far as I can tell.

Anyway, I will also share my findings and thoughts. And I hope to gain the knowledge I'm after someday.

Peace my friend.

Bravo!

Elie Riachi - 4-11-2004 at 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Adel
it sound very good
but stay with us to listen to a sycamore oud
Adel

Hello Adel,

I am new to the forum and playing oud but not to the music. This piece you played is impressive. Thanks for sharing.

Can you give me some advice on the right hand technique?

Also, I may be getting fooled by the oval appearance of the sound holes into assuming that the oud is a Bashir type oud, is it?

What tunning were you using?

Very cool man! More! More! We want more...

Dr. Oud - 4-18-2004 at 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spyrosc
...What we have here is forced standing waves in a plate (the soundboard) that is tied down around the edges and has holes in it, which complicate the analysis. There is some symmetry and I'm working on that...
Peace
Spyros C.

While the oud may appear to have symmetry, there are subtle differences evident in all of the master made instruments I have mesured. Considering the difference in tension between the bass (metal wound) and treble (nylon/gut/whatever) strings, You would expect the face to distort unevenly. The old masters seem to have countered this imbalance by making the face thicker on the bass side and/or shifting the shape of the major tone braces (from the large rose to the tail end). While experimentation continues by some builders, I feel that the results of thousands of years of trial and error have evolved to produce ouds with the sound we recognize and covet. I am content to continue with the traditional designs, but if you find a better way, lemme know!

Oud research

spyrosc - 4-18-2004 at 12:56 PM

Dear Richard,

Nothing gives me more pleasure or perks up my attention more than listening to your opinion and benefiting from your experience.

I have great respect for tradition and the old masters. After all, I grew up in the Middle East and these things are part of my soul.

However, for thousands of years people would not dispute Aristotle although he turned out to be wrong in almost everything he said.

So, as you said, there's always room for experimentation and research.

I will continue learning.

Thanks for everything
Spyros C.