Mike's Oud Forums

Advice on buying an oud please? (Specific)

Woodlandjustin - 11-23-2007 at 06:43 PM

Hi everyone
I know there have been many posts on this subject, and I have read through them. I hope you won't mind answering another! I would like to start learning the oud. So, I need an oud. I am an instrument maker, so I appreciate high quality. At the same time, as I am in my early years of making, I don't earn so much money! Could you guys tell me what/where is the highest quality of oud I could buy for around $500 ~ $800? (I know there are plenty of links to makers, in other posts, but I far prefer your personal opinions, and your abilities to compare between the different sources).

Also I want to learn old-style Arabic music, which I am told needs the tuning low pitched. What are important things I should consider about the oud, for this? I understand the string length should be around 61 or 62cm - is that right? Any other things?

I have seen about Mr. Nazih Ghadban. He seems a very nice man. I expect his ouds must be very nice. Could you guys perhaps advise me, how do his ouds compare to other makers, in terms of price and quality (i.e. value). I know his ouds are above my planned budget, but I am considering this investment.

Also, where I live it becomes extremely humid in the Summer (Japan). I am a bit worried about having a nice oud! Any thoughts about this will also be appreciated.

Thank you very much
Justin

Woodlandjustin - 11-24-2007 at 08:58 AM

Hi guys. So fr 50 views. No opinions?
Justin

Woodlandjustin - 11-24-2007 at 06:34 PM

Come on guys, over 80 views from all you experienced oudist, and poor old me who has touched an oud maybe twice in my life. I reckon you guys must have advice that could help me in this quest for getting an oud!
Thanks!
Justin

Jason - 11-24-2007 at 08:33 PM

Ghadban is considered one of the top makers in the world. I don't think you will be disappointed by one of his ouds. He should be able to help you choose a nice combination of wood for the oud. For old style arabic music maybe get a Nahat copy?

What kind of instruments do you build? I think you will find that a handbuilt oud is one of the greatest values in modern instrument making. An amazing piece of art by Ghadban may cost you $3000 USD but a classical guitar of comparable quality would cost three to four times that.

Maurice Shehata is another builder that gets a lot of respect and admiration around here. His Arabic ouds are top notch

palestine48 - 11-24-2007 at 09:52 PM

u2u excentrik, he has a ghadban and he loves it. btw most ghadbans are nto 3000, i think they are about1500-2000.

samzayed has been sellong one he has. he aslo owns a faruk turunz oud which is made by a turkish maker but built in arabic style.

i think for your price range, i recomend samir azar, i have one of his and talk to mike about maurice shehata ouds.

Woodlandjustin - 11-24-2007 at 10:28 PM

Quote:
Thanks for your replies guys:


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Ghadban is considered one of the top makers in the world. I don't think you will be disappointed by one of his ouds. He should be able to help you choose a nice combination of wood for the oud. For old style arabic music maybe get a Nahat copy?



What about the ones he has currently for ale on his site:
http://www.oudnazihghadban.com/users/current.asp

I did mail him to ask about this, and he kindly replied that all of his ouds are suitable for old Arabic music. I was hoping for something a bit more specific, but I do not want to trouble him him more questions. So could you guys give me some advice about that? I heard that the old Arabic style uses a lower deeper tuning. Nazih says all of his will be fine for that, but do you guys think some of those on his site would be more suitable than others? Also, I am much more concerned about sound that beauty. I like beauty, but I am hoping the money will mainly pay for the sound, so I want to concentrate on sound. I'll really appreciate what you have to say.
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What kind of instruments do you build?


Shakuhachi. They look like simple 5 holed bamboo flutes. Simplicity in Japan generally has great complexity behind it. Shakuhachi is certainly no exception.
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I think you will find that a handbuilt oud is one of the greatest values in modern instrument making.


Yes. What about high humidity? Japanese Summers are very hot and humid. That's why also I am afraid, of having an expensive instrument with a short lifespan!
Also, I see a lot of people on the forum seem to make their own ouds. If I do that can what kind of time and money do you think that takes? And then is the sound terrible? I am skilled with my hands.

Thanks very much
Justin

Maurice Shehata is another builder that gets a lot of respect and admiration around here. His Arabic ouds are top notch

Jason - 11-25-2007 at 08:12 AM

I own a Ghadban floating bridge oud. You can play old style arabic music on it but I think it sounds it's best when playing a more modern Iraqi sound. When I think of floating bridge ouds I think of people like Bashir and Shamma moreso than Farido.

I think something like Oud #970 would suit your needs wonderfully. It has a fixed bridge and long scale length which is a staple of the old arabic sound. I'm not sure what effect the cedar top would have on the sound. On guitars Cedar is usually a little warmer and less snappy than spruce but it also doesn't mature the same way that spruce does.

As long as you have a hard case and some type of humidity regulating device your oud should be fine. I can't remember the website from memory but there is a Japanese oud player who has a site... if you contact him I'm sure he could give better information on how to take care of the oud there.

There is also a member here named 'Japan'... I'm not sure if he's still active but he always had really nice ouds for sale. Maybe he would have something for you to try out if he's close by

MatthewW - 11-25-2007 at 02:02 PM

dude, as Jason says if you buy an oud from Nazih you will NOT be dissapointed. His ouds may be out of your budget, but are worth it. Perhaps his reply to you was out of courtesy? if you really WANT one of his ouds and are ready to buy, then get to the point and tell him.
Just go out and get something in your budget and start playing....if you have only touched an oud twice in your life then it's not worth making too much fuss about how deep it will sound or how Arabic it will sound and how good it will look and so on. If it's an Arabic style oud you are after then get one and make it say something. everything else will fall into place later. string length can be from 58.5cm-61.5cm This aspect is a personal decision. with a string length of 58.5cm the notes are slightly closer and may make faster playing easier. however many of the great players have had 60cm- 61.5cm-62cm string lengths. I personally like spruce tops, but then others prefer cedar. Shehata does fine ouds, as does Samir Azar and Ibrahim Sukar. They may be closer to your budget. check out this thread, contact these guys, get some prices and just buy one in your budget. Can't get more specific than that mate.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6564#pid402...
good luck!

Woodlandjustin - 11-25-2007 at 06:24 PM

Thanks guys. MatthewW, as for rushing out to buy a cheap Arabic oud, and letting things fall into place later, ..... I would rather get an oud now that I never need to replace. Anyway a cheap oud will be expensive! Plus shipping. If I judge poorly now, if I continue playing I will surely need a good instrument later. So, I want to save the hassle, and buy one now which I never need to replace. My disadvantage is that I am ignorant. So that's why I thought you guys could advise me, to save me buying one in ignorance now, and one that suits my needs correctly later!
Could you tell me a bit more about the string length? (Should I make a new thread for this question? I did search already but can't find an explanation). Okay, thanks MattewW, about fast and slow fingering. How about the tone colour? Is the tone different from 58.5cm and 62cm?


Jason, I also thought Oud #970 looked excellant. Unfortunately, it is one of his more expensive ones! Another I thought looked excellant, and was cheaper, was #1133
http://www.oudnazihghadban.com/users/current.asp

But, I noticed that the neck looks different. It only runs down to where it connects to the body, whereas the others all run down as far as the sound hole. Why is that? Do you play the neck down to the sound hole area? Will this oud therefore be unable to be played normally? (Do you know what I mean?) I would love to understand this, because I think that looks very nice to me, except I worry about that neck.

Thank you very much all of you, for helping me.
Justin

Brian Prunka - 11-25-2007 at 07:28 PM

Hey Justin,

I think the reason you haven't gotten a lot of replies is that a lot of your questions have been answered several times in the forum already if you search. Do some searches and you will find a lot more information.

As for trying to get an oud you never need replace, it's hard to predict what will ultimately suit you. in my experience, every oud is different and you can only find an 'irreplaceable' oud by playing a lot of ouds. But I think you're right about not buying a cheap oud. You should buy a good instrument that you can play professionally (if that's what you want); but I wouldn't recommend spending a whole lot of money thinking you'll get the perfect instrument for you. You originally asked what's the highest quality instrument for $500-800 . . . so a Sukar or (at the upper range of that price) a Shehata is a possibility.

But without playing for a while (to find out what kind of sound etc. suits you) and trying different instruments, you simply can't predict what you'll ultimately want.

As for the fingerboard differences, it doesn't really affect your ability to play higher notes--you can still play on the face. I personally like the extended fingerboard, but it is more a matter of taste than anything. The shorter fingerboard is more traditional.

the string length does affect the sound, but not in a particularly predictable way. a whole lot of other things are way more important. in general, 60-62 cm are the usual 'arabic' lengths, but some ouds are even longer (i've heard of Nahats over 63 cm). 58.5 is the usual 'turkish' length, but plenty of Arabic ouds have scales from 58.5-60 cm. and still sound 'Arabic'. You may end up choosing one particular brand of strings depending on the scale, but I wouldn't recommend choosing an oud based on the string length. The one exception would be if you intended to tune the whole instrument lower than current practice, in keeping with how a lot of musicians used to tune (i.e., 'g' is f# or f concert). You would need a 60+cm length to really make that work IMO. However, if you tune that way, you won't be able to play with a lot of other musicians (or they would have to retune, or it would be pretty challenging).

If you can, try to find someone who has an oud from some of the makers you are considering (i know this is difficult, but there are some oud players in Japan). Sukar sounds very different from Ghadban, who sounds very different from Shehata; all the makers are quite distinct. And their sound varies from one instrument to another. I have played Ghadban ouds that sounded very different from one another, likewise with Shehata.

as for prices, you can ask makers about their prices if they're not posted, though good luck if you want a Sukar, he doesn't seem to bother with sales outside Syria.

Brian Prunka - 11-25-2007 at 07:32 PM

Incidentally, I've played Sam Zayed's Ghadban oud and thought it was a very good instrument. If he's still selling it, you should maybe consider that.
As far as I know, it's rare that anyone has been disappointed in a Shehata.

Woodlandjustin - 11-25-2007 at 08:20 PM

Quote:

As for the fingerboard differences, it doesn't really affect your ability to play higher notes--you can still play on the face. I personally like the extended fingerboard, but it is more a matter of taste than anything. The shorter fingerboard is more traditional.



Are those higher notes modern then? Not used in traditional playing? With the shorter fingerboard, playing on the face for the high notes, does that give a different(/bad?) sound?

If people could give their various opinions about shorter vrs longer fingerboard, I would appreciate it.
Thank you
Justin

SamirCanada - 11-25-2007 at 08:25 PM

there is no such thing as "ONE" oud...
your under the impression that this will be the first and last...
well...
unfortunately it starts with one.... it could end with 4... 5... 6... and up.... :)
I speak out of experience and also from seeing many players lose the fight.

SamirCanada - 11-25-2007 at 08:33 PM

Justin... if I could just give you my honest advice here.
before you buy a oud...
or ask more questions...

take at least 1 or 2 weeks and start reading the treads in the forum from the begining and on...
look at the titles for things that might be usefull for you.

you will learn so much and you will be better guided in buying your oud. trust me you will not regret it.

Also like Brian said... there is only one way to find out what your tastes are for ouds: sound wise, string lenght etc... you have to play them and you need to compare them. and experiance is necessary to understand what your looking for when comparing them.

there is also a level of experiance required in order to appreciate a professional grade instrument... without ever having played a low quality oud how could appreciate a top class oud. I know I couldnt because when I held a professional instrument for the first time it was like nite and day and I think somehow that shock is necessary.

Woodlandjustin - 11-25-2007 at 10:54 PM

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take at least 1 or 2 weeks and start reading the treads in the forum from the begining and on...


Thank you. Yes, I have spent several hours reading the threads, and searching, before I posted my questions. I am trying my best.
Quote:

Also like Brian said... there is only one way to find out what your tastes are for ouds: sound wise, string lenght etc... you have to play them and you need to compare them. and experiance is necessary to understand what your looking for when comparing them.



Unfortunately I can afford neither the time nor the money for such experience, before buying an oud. However I know I would like a warm deep sound. If you can advise on this, please do.
Quote:

there is also a level of experiance required in order to appreciate a professional grade instrument... without ever having played a low quality oud how could appreciate a top class oud. I know I couldnt because when I held a professional instrument for the first time it was like nite and day and I think somehow that shock is necessary.


Yes, I understand this. I can agree with it, but not really in this case. As I just mentioned, unfortunately I don't have the time or money to afford the luxury of such experience. In that case, I would like to buy one oud, and then be satisfied. Kind of like, once you are married, you no longer think about other women, other options. In that case, if I know the oud is good, then the only job left is for me to adjust to it. Think of it as an arranged marriage. Now I am looking for what will seem the most suitable for me, though, due to circumstances I cannot meet this new oud until I buy it. With you kind folks helping me, I am sure the match can be excellent, and we may live happily ever after.

Justin

MatthewW - 11-26-2007 at 04:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woodlandjustin
Thanks guys. MatthewW, as for rushing out to buy a cheap Arabic oud, and letting things fall into place later, ..... I would rather get an oud now that I never need to replace.

hey Justin- who said anything about rushing out to buy a CHEAP oud? The makers I have mentioned, and all the makers listed in the link to the thread in my posting do not make CHEAP ouds. What I am saying is: you got a budget, you got plenty of info here in the forum including a list of the best oud makers, go for it and don't look back. Any oud made by any one of these makers would be a very good oud to get started on.

Woodlandjustin - 11-27-2007 at 03:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woodlandjustin
Quote:

As for the fingerboard differences, it doesn't really affect your ability to play higher notes--you can still play on the face. I personally like the extended fingerboard, but it is more a matter of taste than anything. The shorter fingerboard is more traditional.



Are those higher notes modern then? Not used in traditional playing? With the shorter fingerboard, playing on the face for the high notes, does that give a different(/bad?) sound?

If people could give their various opinions about shorter vrs longer fingerboard, I would appreciate it.
Thank you
Justin


I think maybe still someone has a comment about the above ^ ? :wavey:

Justin

Jason - 11-27-2007 at 08:17 PM

I don't think higher notes are necessarily more modern. Playing way up high is more associated with Iraqi or Turkish playing but I'm sure all of the old Arabic masters explored that register of the instrument.

I think it depends on the oud's construction whether the extended fingerboard makes a big sonic difference. It's not like you can listen to a player and say "oh he just went off the fingerboard on to the face there". In my opinion it shouldn't be a deal breaker when considering an oud.

Some ouds have the extended fingerboard raised and some have it sit flush with the face, also. I prefer it to be raised but many others prefer the opposite.