Mike's Oud Forums

Arabic oud

spartan - 12-23-2007 at 08:42 AM

Unfortunately in Greece we have not the possibility to see and hear arabic ouds. Turkish ouds are most popular, but i think the reason is the proximity between the two countries.

Personally I prefer the deep, bass and "round" sound of arabic ouds, but it's hard to find.

Can anyone mention the best oud makers for arabic ouds?
Of course "best" is a very personal thing, but all opinions will help.

amtaha - 12-23-2007 at 12:21 PM

http://www.dimitrisouds.com/ ... ?

Oud Freak - 12-23-2007 at 02:09 PM

I once asked the difference between Greek and turkish ouds. The answer was that they look practically the same but with different characteristics. That's fine, but what are the main differences, and what are the characteristics?
Do these differences arise from the type of wood used, or more from the bracing?
Cheers,
OF

Melbourne - 12-23-2007 at 06:28 PM

OF - you will find that there is no difference between Greek and Turkish ouds. Basically when it comes to the role of the oud in Greek music, the Greeks have adopted the Turkish oud, and Turkish method. So, when an oud is made in Greece, it is simply based on the Turkish oud. Its a bit like an oud made in Syria, and an oud made in Egypt, they are both Arabic ouds, only difference being is the country of manufacture. Of course some characteristics will change from country to country, but these can apply just the same between maker and maker. Gulf ouds on the other hand begin to have thier own character, with the wider bodies and flatter bottoms etc. In the long run, one can only begin to identify ouds by been esxposed to the work of many many luthiers. For example, it is very obivious that Jameels ouds are inspired by Nahats' work, and the giveaways are the nature of the ornamentation inlays and woodwork. On the other hand, an oud made by Johnathon (also a memember of this forum) is clearly Turkish inspired; not only becuase Johnathon says that he is building a Turkish oud, but also because the clues are all there, ie the string length, the body shape, the rosette desgins, and minimalist approach to inlay and decoration work, not to mention the pick guard design. Then of course there are the different structural approaches where things like bracing and wood species begin to differ. Hope that helps. It is my personal observation btw.

Oud Freak - 12-24-2007 at 04:14 AM

Thanks melb. So I can now confirm my thoughts that turkish and greek ouds are relatives and have the same spirit. I guess the armenian ones too. It's weird that despite their hate for everything turkish, the armenians and the turks have a lot of similarities in their ouds and music, and most of the armenians speak turkish. I have a CD from Richard Hagopian, an armenian oud player living in the states I believe... The shape of the oud on the cover is turkish, the sound and the tuning too. I also beleive that Viken Najarian makes turkish ouds, according to the pics on his website.

See the CD cover in the below link:

http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Hagopian/artist/B000APZ2U8

The track number 9 is a light and quite fast Bashraf (Pesrev), really pleasant to hear.

Amos - 12-24-2007 at 04:30 AM

oud freak, i usually do not get involved in historical/cultural conversations on this forum, but i feel that your last comment stating that armenians 'hate everything turkish' and 'most of the armenians speak turkish' as being a bit of an oversimplification. i wont get into the events around the genocide and displacement of armenians, but the musician you mentioned, the great master and historian richard hagopian, performs in both armenian and turkish because many of the ethnic armenians who were annihilated and deported from all over anatolia by the ottomans were from turkish speaking areas and spoke both armenian and turkish...they brought those tunes with them into the many countries of the diaspora.
i would dispute that armenians 'hate all things turkish'. there is much shared between the two and characterizing a people as being generally hateful is unfair regardless of how many people among them share the anger and hurt of the genocide. there is room for healing, and continuing the idea that turks and armenians are mired in hate wont get us any closer. thats just my two cents.
amos

Oud Freak - 12-24-2007 at 06:22 AM

Amos, I have ntg against both. I have armenian and turkish music. They are very close in style. There are many armenians in Llebanon and whenever anything is mentioned about anything turkish, they unfortunately feel bothered. I am only observing what I see. My comment is neither absolute nor universal. Am just considering the common points between the two cultures, despite the reminiscences of hatreds and misunderstandings, that's not an insult! Moreover I would have perceived my last comment in a positive way: despite all the violent history (armenian and turkish) and the different opinions, music is somehow alike in the two cases and that's something really good, because it shows that music and ouds unify and are against discrimination and hatred.

I hope we close this discussion once and for all. When I posted my comment I wasn't the least expecting a reply. Am glad though to read what you say, cos I hope too that all the conflicts between human people will cease, and that the actual and next generations will go beyond the very big mistakes of our ancestors.

mavrothis - 12-24-2007 at 08:48 AM

Quote:

Basically when it comes to the role of the oud in Greek music, the Greeks have adopted the Turkish oud, and Turkish method. So, when an oud is made in Greece, it is simply based on the Turkish oud.


Sorry to barge in on this thread, but the above is not completely correct - or at best incomplete. What is called the "Turkish oud" is obviously not just a "Turkish" oud. Why? It's the same reason that Ottoman classical music is not just "Turkish" classical music.

The first luthier to make what we now generally call the "Turkish oud" was Manolis Venios - "Manol" - who was a Greek furniture maker and luthier originally born on a Greek island but who moved to Istanbul in the 19th Century. That's not to say that ouds weren't played or made before this in Turkey - but the form that is generally used now was first made by Venios. There were many Greek and Armenian oud makers known before and after Manol as well, among others. This shows how cosmopolitan and multi-ethnic Ottoman society was. Along with the luthiers, there were many very important non-Turkish composers, musicians, etc throughout the history of the Ottoman Empire and early Turkish Republic. Was Tatyos writing Turkish music? Not in my opinion. He was writing the classical music of his society, that happened to be multi-ethnic and based in Turkey - Ottoman classical music. Didn't Tanburi Cemil Bey learn kemence (lyra) from a Greek player?

I don't want to get into all the unnecessary history b/c it is painful and unneeded here. However, Greeks, Armenians, Arabs, Assyrians, and Persians, etc. were living and making music in what became the Ottoman Empire before the Turks conquered the area. It makes sense that since there was already such a vibrant and influential culture that existed for so many years, that elements of that music were absorbed into the Ottoman court music. I think this is a reasonable statement.

So what am I saying? I'm saying that no, it's not just Turkish or Byzantine or Persian or Armenian, etc, but a mix of all these, which soon became Ottoman classical music, or court music.

I just don't like it when this music and this instrument are characterized as only Turkish, and that the rest of us from this region have no real rights to it other than that our countries are "close by" so we took it too. It's just incorrect.

Political mindsets throughout the 20th century in Greece, and perhaps in Armenia, have characterized these instruments as "Turkish" - in other words "foreign, belonging to our political enemy" - in an attempt to Westernize/modernize Greece and get us away from our "Eastern" past. But these are just political mind games, nothing based in reality. This has made it necessary for Greeks today trying to get into this music to go to Turkish players, makers, etc, to try and connect the history and theory with today's practice, since until recently in Greece these instruments and this music were taboo. This has been a very pleasurable experience for me, because by meeting these great Turkish masters, I have not only learned a great deal about music and the oud, but I have also made great friendships that have broken down all the nationalistic prejudice against Turks that was poured into my brain growing up. I'm a much better person b/c the oud has exposed me to so many different people.

Melbourne's statement is probably based on what is going on today in Greece in regards to going to Turkey to learn about the music and the instruments - but still, I have to make it clear that as far as I am concerned, calling this oud and the music just "Turkish" is not correct. This instrument and music have come out of a multi-ethnic culture, region and society, including Turks, Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Arabs, Jews, Persians, Kurds, Gipsies, and many more groups of people over the millennia. I don't think I'm going to change anything by saying this, and hopefully I won't upset anyone, but these are my thoughts. You can't oversimplify this by saying it historically belongs to just one group of people.

Sorry again to barge in on this thread.

Take care,

mavrothis

Oud Freak - 12-24-2007 at 01:26 PM

Yeslam temmak mavrothis, u r absolutely right. I agree (as I already mentioned) that turkish, greek and armenian music have globally many similarites, as two sisters in the same family. In fact the said "style" cannot be considered purely greek, turkish or armenian. Each people was influenced by and influenced the neighbors too, which made music more rich and interesting. I'll try to ask a teacher of history of arts about his opinion. He is very charismatic, objective and cultured.
Cheers!

Amos - 12-25-2007 at 06:21 AM

excellent reply mav, very well said and very important information for all of us...thank you.
amos

Melbourne - 12-25-2007 at 10:56 PM

Hi Mav...

Like I said that was my observation, and wasn't particularly sure that it was 100% accurate. But thank you for your clarification, which now really completes the picture. I wasn't for one moment saying that the turkish oud was so in a nationalistic sense, but more so in the sense that it's the "label" that came to be applied to an oud that is made in Turkey or Greece, or Armeinia, and like you say, the grandfather of what is now, "popularly" referred to as the turkish style oud, was Manolis Venios, a Greek.

By no means I was trying to declare that the so called turkish oud is Turkish, in a chauvinistic or "haha its ours not yours" kinda way that is commonly popular old school urban legend opinion. Again I say all this to clarify and not create tension...and based on you info Mav, the picture is now more complete than it was otherwise. And before there was anything Turkish, there were things Byzantine, whose influence was just as great and influential throughout that same region.

Regards

Cheers

mavrothis - 12-26-2007 at 06:25 AM

Hi Melbourne,

Thanks for your words - I thought that was what you meant, so please don't think I was being angry or something. The reason I made the post was b/c this whole labeling issue is something that maybe most of us understand, but still for someone coming from another background, it is easy to just accept the label and not look deeper.

Even in Greece and Armenia I think this is a problem b/c of all the politics and propaganda that have tried to separate instead of unite us. Many there or in the diaspora write things off as foreign when they really are not. Regionally specific perhaps, but not foreign.

So you see, I was not so much addressing you Melbourne as just getting out my thoughts which have come about from meeting and talking with all kinds of people. We all love this music and are a part of it, but if we get caught up in the labels of things, it can feel like some of us are being left out. That's all.

Take care, and thanks again.

mavrothis

Ottoman Court Music and the Istanbuli Night Club Scene

Butrous - 12-30-2007 at 08:58 AM

The Ottoman Court did not commission music to be composed out of thin air. It drew its inspiration from many sources, including the Istanbuli night club scene, where the cross culturation of various traditions occurred in an unpretentious environment.

Many of these musicians came to New York City after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They kept alive the idea that ethnicity and religion should not create barriers in musical performance. Many of them performed in a vibrant night club scene on 8th Avenue.

Look at the musician credits on most American belly dance LP's from the 1950's through the 1980's. You will find representives from all the above mentioned ethnic groups performing together. Musicians from the second and third generation are still performing today.

The best way to eduate your ears is to listen to more music. A good place to start would be to listen to recordings issued on the Traditional Crossroads label. It can be found at:

www.traditionalcrossroads.com

Listen to the music and read the booklet from the following cd's and you will learn a great deal:

Lalezar, Vol. I-IV

Gypsy Fire

Sulukule

Richard Hagopian, various reissues

Women of Istanbul

Selim Seslar

Tatyos Effendi, Vol. I-II

Laco Tayfa

Kef Time, various reissues

Tanburi Cemil Bey, Vol. I-V

Armenians on 8th Avenue

Istanbul 1925

Marko Melkon

Udi Hrant, Vol I-II

Ozel Turkbas, various reissues

Mustafa Kandirali

Udi Yorgo Bacanos

spyros mesogeia - 12-31-2007 at 06:02 AM

Hello my friend
There are at least 5 makers that I really apreciate in Greece,and they are all making wonderfull ouds,arab style ouds.
Dimitris Rapakousios
Tasos Thodorakis
Markos
Aleksandris
Nihad Rajab

Just take alook and I am sure that you can find many wonderfull instruments.
Just give me a call
I wish you all a happy new year oud-brothers.May God always unite us in the wonderfull OUD-FAMILY
Mavro,we really miss you Bro,I will do my best to come to Greece with 2 surprises:airguitar:.YOU KNOW:wavey:
Regards to all of you
Spyros Koliavasilis

gregorypause - 2-21-2008 at 02:59 AM

Spyros, that Iraqi style oud of yours by Dimitris really sounds good for sure! I enjoyed listening to your myspace page. I especially like 'Flame' and 'Huseyni Saz Semaiakyriazis'. Epharisto para poli!

Is there any way you could turn off the video automatically starting though? Both the music and the video starts at the same time, which can get confusing...