Anne Marie - 2-6-2008 at 02:49 PM
Hello everyone
First of all I want to say thank you for the kind and informative replies I've had from my first post. This really is a most marvelous site! I've
been asked by two people to send some pictures. I don't seem to be getting it quite together to send all five, so I am (hopefully) including one in
this post and Mike has kindly agreed to put up the other ones.
As I explained to Ronny Andersson, I have, because my oud really was unplayable, (the strings were virtually touching the soundboard because the
bridge was so low) asked my house mate who is a guitarmaker, to put a strut across where the bridge is, so what you are seeing is the repaired
version. It is playable at the moment, but it has lost quite a bit in sound quality.
Here's my problem: I have now spent £900 on an instrument that is still sick. And here is why it's kind of important that I know whether this is a
new or a second hand oud:
Back in August last year I paid Ahmed Mukhtar £600 which he wired over to Basra to have a new instrument made by Fawzi Munshid. I then paid £50 for
said new oud to be transported to Dubai, where Ahmed's brother, who was flying to London anyway, had kindly agreed to receive it and take it with him.
Because said new oud did not arrive in time the brother missed his flight and of course I paid for the cancellation fee of the flight, another £50,
plus handling fee of oud £20 (which of course I would have done under any circumstances) and for taxi of brother from Heathrow to London, because new
flight arrived at night.
£750 so far.
Then I paid another £100 for repair (which unfortunately didn't work), as the sound board had begun to warp soon after I got it, (I really began to
notice it after a month and it was getting worse, but it could have started earlier). The man who repaired it then told me that someone had put a
piece of wood under the bridge to make it higher, which he had taken away again, and he was also the one who told me that he recognised it as Ahmed's
brother's oud, at which point I began to smell the proverbial rat. He also suggested to plane down the fretboard a bit, because of fingernail marks.
Just for everyone's information, I don't have fingernails, I am also a piano player, and they're really not very good for playing the piano. And
anyway, I couldn't possbly have pitted the fretboard like that within two months of having the oud.
The latest repair has been done virtually as a favour, another £50, which brings the total up to £900.
I have been told by a German oud maker that Ahmed has bought a new oud from Fawzi Munshid only a few months ago, he actually saw it. A horrible
suspicion has crept into my mind. Of course, I am open to persuasion otherwise, but really there are a lot of indications that this is a second hand
instrument, whether it is Ahmed's brother's oud or not ultimately doesn't matter, but if this is not a new oud then I do not have the oud I bought.
Which is why I asked if anyone knew Fawzi Munshid's number because I figured he would be able to tell me whather he would make an oud in 2007 and put
a label inside that said 2002.
I am currently a student at SOAS University, studying for an MaMus performance degree in Middle Eastern music, this is how I know Ahmed. He was my
darboukka teacher for two years. But I have even spoken to my University about this and they were very sympathetic, but since I don't have a receit or
anything written down, without any conclusive proof they can't do anything. Just before Christmas though at least they got us both into a mediation
meeting, after which Ahmed agreed to sell the oud for £400-£450 (because it had been repaired, it had lost in value!), if I put new strings on and
put the bridge back to 'normal', However, I think it would be kind of immoral to sell an instrument in this state, especially because it was just
getting worse and worse.
In some way I have been quite stupid and naive. I saw the old strings which were on the instrument when I got it, (a fact Ahmed has admitted) but
somehow it didn't register. I saw the warping quite early, but I thought maybe this was the way ouds were made. I saw the action was quite high, and I
thought that was a little odd, I do know a little bit about guitars and I play bass guitar, so I knew that a good instrument should have an action
that makes playing the instrument feel a little bit like touching velvet, but I just didn't think to find anything strange, because I had no reason
to.
Anyway, I think I better stop now. I'll just say, that really this has been a story that's been going now for a few months and I've been really quite
upset by it, especially because Ahmed's been so unhelpful in this whole affair. But it's been really good to get some of this off my chest.
And I am finding a lot of help from people on this website, thank you Mike and thank you Ronny Andersson.
Anne Marie
Mike - 2-6-2008 at 03:59 PM
I barely read Arabic, but it looks like the label says 2002. Hopefully somebody can confirm. If I was you, I'd demand to have the oud you paid for,
and I'd also demand to be refunded half, if not all, the extra costs incurred. This is quite ridiculous. Taxi cab fee??? Unbelievable that he could
even ask you to pay for that, as well as the other costs that had absolutely nothing to do with buying an oud. I'm surprised he didn't ask you to pay
for his ticket and lodging while he was at it. How was his brother going to get to wherever he was going in the first place? You're upset? Well, so am
I after reading your story A.M. Anything we can do to help, please let us know. I'm glad Ronny is involved too. The way you were taken is beyond
unethical.
JT - 2-6-2008 at 04:21 PM
Hello Anne Marie,
That is an awful thing to happen...I had similar situation when I was younger and it really makes you upset that a human, musican or artist could do
this to his fellow one.
Its quite a ridiculous story, and I doubt the maker would put a 2002 label if it was made in 2007, definitely a rat involved. You should not only get
a FULL refund, but a free oud from whoever wronged you, thats the only way to sort it out. And to pay 900 pounds makes me more angry.
Mike, Im with you Im upset too because its people taking advantage of people who trust them...unbelievable!
I think we're gonna have to start our own mikeouds crime fighting unit MCFU...whos in?
JT
SamirCanada - 2-6-2008 at 05:52 PM
word up...
thats not a new oud.
you can also tell by the tale tale greenish marks above the pick guard. This is caused by the tarnished strings being struck on the face. It takes a
while to develop.
Oud players do not keep long nails on there fingerboard hand by the way. Groves in the fingerboard happen from the strings digging in and is a normal
wear and tear issue. exept it usualy takes 2 years of playing or something to need a fingerbord leveling.
also Fauzy has changed his label picture to a more updated color one. I saw it in a oud on this site and on my friend's oud who plays here. And his
was made in 2006.
The face is really sunk in isnt it?. I am surprised its holding up. By the way you should get your money back from the repair person as well. 100
pounds and still not playable is another rip off you got there.
oudplayer - 2-6-2008 at 06:19 PM
Hey a.m
sorry to hear what happaned. and i know of a similer story like yrs and its crazy to hear them all the time.
my great uncle is a pro oud player and he played stupid and went to a maker and the maker not only overpriced the oud more since he thought my uncle
was a novice and tryed to take advantage of him and after he b.s.ed him a bit my uncle said can i try to play it and started playing farid and other
arabic music and the maker turned red and left the room and nothing else was said.
all i can say is fight what what you beilve in and also get as much as you can .
thx sammy
Jameel - 2-6-2008 at 07:15 PM
I've been in the same boat. Sorry to hear of your troubles. One good thing about forums, is they provide an outlet for raw deals like this, and force
crooked dealers to shape up. I know of another forum for woodworking where the CEO of one of the largest machinery manufacturers in the world
regularly participates, and he takes the good with the bad. I hope this thread helps you on your way to getting things right and getting and oud that
you're delighted with.
charlie oud - 2-7-2008 at 12:25 AM
Anne Marie, I feel for you. I am saddened by the lack of collective pride in the oud making/dealing community which serves to undermine trust between
player and maker. In Europe & the U.S. & other western nations there is an accepted code of practice amongst guitar makers/players &
dealers. This is unwritten of course, but exposes a rat in no time due to the power of its integrity. You have clearly been wronged. Where you take it
from here is for you to decide but thankyou for shareing this experience with us and I sincerely hope there is some small comfort in our responses
which eases the stress and disappointment you feel. Rogue traders be warned, we will not be treated this way.
Ararat66 - 2-7-2008 at 12:55 AM
Hi Anne Marie
I can appreciate the difficulty of your situation - you do right to get this off your chest particularly as it can't be easy given Mr Mukhtar's place
at SOAS.
Here's my opinion on the information you have given - you ordered a new oud, that's what you should have and it should be in good order or else the
luthier should repair the problem. I have to agree with others that those other costs (Taxi, air fares etc)are really taking the Micky - they are
just bizarre given that you have not got a new oud !!
My guess is that Ahmed has got himself into a pickle about this for one reason or another and misguided pride on his part is stopping an honourable
resolution of this situation.
I can't help directly, I don't know Ahmed at all although I had enquired about lessons a while back, but you have my moral support in this as with the
others. I hope Ahmed can see the case with a clearer mind and do the right thing - he has a duty of care to students and is in a position of
responsibility as a teacher at SOAS.
I hope Ahmed can read all this and do something to recompense you, sort out a decent instrument for you and get back on good terms with you.
Best wishes
Leon
Ronny Andersson - 2-7-2008 at 02:20 AM
Anne-Marie, The oud is off course not new and the transaction has nothing to do with Munshid when the crook is Mukhtar.
There is only one solution is that he give you the money back and compensation for repairs.
I find the story indeed pathetic and devastating for Mukhtar.
The oud itself come with a multi ribbed bowl that Mukhtar have on special order from Munshid.
The depression on the soundboard is typical for Munshid ouds but it depends on how severe it is if the oud is playable or not.
I had Shammas first Munshid oud for some time and it had been repaired with a piece of plywood glued under the bridge area inside the soundboard to
support it. Apparently it didn't give any support when the depression was indeed severe and the oud was unplayable.
It is not possible to repair unless a luthier strengthen the soundboard and then you don't have a Munshid oud!
The sound depends on the fragility of Munshid and I play on an oud by Munshid that has a depression but it looks to be little bit less than on your
oud but still so much that some players consider the oud to be difficult to play since the risha strikes the soundboard for them. I have a very
advanced risha technique using a eagle risha and I don't have problem with the low string action. Actually it's low just at the lower edge at the
sound hole as one can see on your excellent photos.
I don't think it's possible to repair this in such way that it still can be recognised as a Munshid oud. If you have a new soundboard done, well
sooner or later the depression is there. That was happened to Shammas oud I had repaired by a lute maker. He just copied the original soundboard and
it took only a week and the depression was on the way....
It's a wast of money and energy to deal with this type of repairs especially when you have been fooled.
So Anne-Marie, go and get you money back plus compensation!
I attach a photo of the label on my own oud.
Melbourne - 2-7-2008 at 03:42 AM
Sorry about what happend to you Anne Marie...
This Mukhtar guy has truly committed such a disgraceful act. And if this guy somehow hears about this story, well he'll be glad to know that he's
earned the reputation of being the lowest of the low amongst human beings... To try to fool someone by the assumption that they don't know meaning of
a label is just - silly, dumb even.
And if there is any good to have come out of this story; this guy's reputation is virtually down the rocks! In fact I would be very suprised if his
career doesn't suffer greatly from this, especially in this information age, where the world is suuuuch as small place:
http://www.amukhtar.com/en/index.html
Tah Dah buddy (mr mukhtar) - happy ouding 
abusin - 2-7-2008 at 05:35 AM
Hi Anne,
Express my sorrow in you dilemma and offer my support to you firstly as a homey and secondly a fellow forum member and oudist. I’ve had similar
experiences with fraudulent eBay purchases in the past and I am still reeling with anger and disappointment whenever I remember it but definitely I
learnt from it.
I know ustaz Ahmed and I like his music talents and have attended one of his concerts a while back in Manchester, and since I emailed him few
times.
From the detailed explanations you gave I am speechless, but don’t want to jump to conclusions before hearing the other party’s point “I am not
saying I do not believe you” but it would help finding out the other side of the story and try and resolve the issue.
To achieve that I sent an email to Ahmed Mukhtar asking him to explain his part and inviting him to join the discussion by contacting the admin, I
think this way we will be able to reach an amicable solution and clear the air.
And more importantly getting you back to your oud learning. 
As soon as I get a replay from Ahmed I’ll discuss it with you all.
Best regards,
Awad
Mike - 2-7-2008 at 08:59 AM
Hello Awad, aka, "The Voice of Reason"....
I totally agree with you buddy. Until now we have only heard one side of the story, and we shouldn't jump to any conclusions. I'm glad you are in
contact with Ahmad. Hopefully he can - and will - resolve this issue with Anne Marie as soon as possible. Let him know that this website gets roughly
40 thousand hits per day. Albeit, in the grand scheme of things, that's not a lot considering how many people there are in the world. But I would say
that pretty much anybody who is familiar with the Net and is involved in the world of oud, know about...and visit this site frequently. His reputation
is on the line here, and hopefully if that is important to him, this issue will be resolved soon. I'm sure we all would welcome him to provide his
side of the story, and for him to man up and correct the "alleged" wrong he and his brother have committed. I don't mean to sound biased here, but I
use the word alleged very loosely here. I don't see why A.M. would want to ruin this guy's reputation for no reason. As it stands right now, with only
one side of the story, it is pretty clear Ahmad is in the wrong here.
Let me also reiterate what Ronny has stated. This has nothing to do with Usstaz Munshid, and the quality of his ouds. He is a reputable Iraqi
oudmaker, and in no way should he be connected to the wrong doing mentioned above.
We all are waiting.
Thanks my friend,
Mike
Anne Marie - 2-8-2008 at 01:38 PM
Dear All
First of all, I really want to thank everyone for their replies. I am not generally an immense lover of all this new technology (I'm probably one of
the only people left on this planet who doesn't have a mobilephone) but places like this forum are really a wonderful thing, and I am rethinking my
views on the Internet.
Awad, in a way you writing to Ahmed could possibly be the best way to sort this out, since my only option left to get any satisfaction before coming
onto this forum was to take him to court, but for that I needed at least incontrovertible proof that this oud was not new. And this was and is not a
road I particularly wanted to go down. So thank you for taking this step.
From the information you all have given me, and from the picture Ronny sent (the date is 2004 isn't it?) it is quite clear that the oud I have is an
earlier model.
I also want to stress that all this really has nothing to do with ustad Munshid. I suppose if it had been a new oud, I might have wanted to speak to
him because I would have hoped that it was under some sort of garantee, but all I wanted to do by speaking with him was to establish beyond any doubt
that the oud was not new for the reasons given above.
And this as you all have confirmed does seem to be the case. So this is really good to know.
But despite everything there are many things I do love about this oud. I couldn't believe how light it was when I first got it. Like a feather. And it
did (and sort of still does) have a beautiful sound. Yes I am still quite a beginner on this instrument (and as you said Sammy, this sometimes doesn't
help when buying one) although I have been a musician all my life, but I have been trying to practise four hours a day or more if I can, because I
really do love the oud and I would like, if I can become at least quite good at playing it. It's been a bit difficult to know what and how I should
be doing it given all the difficulties I've had with low action and buzzing notes, but I still lhave been learning a lot, which is just as well.
Well this has all been quite some learning process, some of it not what I particularly wanted to learn, but hey there we go. Mike, you did mention
this, and it is true, I would not say any of this if it were not the truth, I should be a very strange person, if I wanted to invent such an elaborate
story, if anything it was my naivety that got me into this situation. I seem to have been not the only one, as some of you have told me. But this
whole story really is so ridiculous that I hope I will be able to laugh about it as soon as possible. I shall be very interested what Ahmed's response
will be and it would be absolutely amazing if we could come to some sort of agreement.
Ronny, you seem to think if I got it right that there is not much more one can do without losing the Munshid sound altogether. Well, I suppose you
must be right, especially after what you said about having put a new face on one of your instruments and it still not working. As I said before, at
the moment it is playable, be it with reduced sound quality. I suppose, since I cannot afford to buy a new oud on top of the one I have, it would
really be the best if I could get a refund from Ahmed which is what I had asked him for as part of an email correspondence I had with him before
Christmas. Well, I am now waiting, too.
In the meantime best to everyone
Anne Marie
(since it might become relevant, at my University I am enrolled as Patricia because that's what's in my passport, but I really prefer the name Anne
Marie)
dubai244 - 2-8-2008 at 11:00 PM
Hi Anne,
I feel really sorry about what i happend with you. I been in a similar situation with one guy. that's why i always order direct from the maker rather
than having third person in between.
Any way, I noticed some thing that makes me feel that your oud it is not even Munshid oud. I am sorry i dont want to make things worse here but it
might help you to sue the "Theaf" Mukhtar. The telephone numbers which displayed in the post card in your oud is different than what displayed in the
postcard of Ronny's Munshid oud ????!!!
In your oud the telephone number start with "2" while the telephone number which is displayed in Ronny's Oud (which is orignal Munshid oud), start
with "6" (in arabic). Plus there is two years period between the two ouds. Your oud made in 2002 while Ronny's made in 2004. so i dont think so
Mr.Munshid will change his shop location or telephone numbers in two years. and i never heard that Munshid change his location or his telephone
numbers, otherwise i will be a first one to get his contact address from my iraqis friends here in Dubai.
Any way, i hope you will have solution for this problem soon ....
Thanks
Ronny Andersson - 2-9-2008 at 02:20 AM
Anne-Maries oud is an authentic Munshid and there is no doubts whatsoever about that. However his ouds are being copied and faked Munshid are on the
market.
The phone number on the label in my oud is no longer working. My oud was collected by my friend at Munshid workshop.
dubai244 - 2-9-2008 at 05:15 AM
Hi Ronny,
I am really glad that your oud is authentic munshid and you did right thing by ordering the oud directly from Mr.Munshid. And thanks for the new
numbers for Mr.Munshid, I might order oud from him soon.
Thanks
Melbourne - 2-9-2008 at 06:09 AM
Order me one too dubai244 
Seriously though, if it's as simple as giving him a call - I would be interested. I was under the impression that it was very hard to get an oud
directly through Fawzy...
dubai244 - 2-9-2008 at 11:36 AM
Hi Melbourne,
Your impression is correct. I know it is very hard to get it outside iraq borders because it is considered as national culture instrument which can
not be taken out side iraq. But ..... If you know some body to bring to you then it will be easy ......
I know a pilot working with cargo airline, going to Al-Basra international every occaion, so i can ask him if i want to or i have got iraqi friends
who can bring it for me if i want to ......
But this is not what i ment in my previous message. In my opinion, if you want good quality oud, it is better to get it from the source, the maker. As
Ronny said that his friend collected the oud from Fawzi Shop, is that consider directly or in-directly from Mr.Fawzi ??!! it is your call,
Melbourne.
I wish i can help you with ordering oud from Mr.Fawzi, but so many people will be involved and it will be too complicated. I prefer that i dont do it
at all. I will try to order one for myself and i will see the right way to order one, and i will let you know.
Thanks
Melbourne - 2-9-2008 at 06:50 PM
Thx for the info dubai244...I was just entertaining the thought anyway . But if
you do get one, it would be good to know how the whole process goes...
cheers
Samer
dubai244 - 2-9-2008 at 11:26 PM
Hi Melbourne,
Sure i will ....
Thanks