Mike's Oud Forums

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farukturunz - 2-11-2008 at 08:05 PM

The very democratic fundamental attitude of these forums is abused by a user in an unjust way. Someone whose email address is s......@ hotmail.com, using katakofta nick in the forums has recently started an assault against my ouds' fame.


Although a correspondence had started between Mr. Suheil and me by an inquiring mail he had sent me before he started that thread he had not asked from me directly about the “high prices” of my ouds which seems hard to be conceived by him, instead he asked me if I was constructing ouds with floating bridges. I don’t see it is worth trying to convince someone whose aim is not to get information but solely to attack to me by adducing my oud’s price being unjust.
I have constructed more than 1500 ouds so far and still constructing 10-12 ouds monthly on average. I have rarely have ready ouds to sell over the shelf:))
Some of my customers are member of this forum and I am sure that they haven’t noticed his thread “Oud sound Test” probably because they are not interested in the topic, otherwise they would show their reaction, like some already has shown, against someone who is just attacking to a luthier, a faithful servant of the Oud instrument and have made the oud they love very much and have never thought of they might have paid an unjust price for owning that beloved oud.

A SIMPLE NOTE: I noticed that he deleted his E-Mail address in the profile page of the forums. It was in the place two days ago.Why did you suddenly need to disguise Mr. Suheil?:xtreme:

HERE IS HIS EVALUATION BEFORE HE HAD SENT HIS THREAD “Oud sound Test”


From: s.....@hotmail.com Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
To: "Faruk Turunz" <farukturunz@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Oud
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:27:55 -0500
Thanks Mr Faruk for your reply. I have seen so many videos of players having ouds done by yourself. If you are providing such great sound with fixed bridge do you think with a floating one sounds might be better? more resonnance e.g? I just want to know your opinion in comparing both type of fixed or floating brigde.
thanks again
Souheil

mavrothis - 2-11-2008 at 08:38 PM

Dear Mr. Turunz,

I understand your sensitivity to this issue. However, I don't think this person will affect your reputation or the desire so many have to own your instruments. There will always be vocal critics of people doing great work - usually they are motivated by not being able to get what they want from you (like a great oud for next to nothing).

You should defend yourself I think, it is only fair. But don't worry, any oud player with the least bit of sense recognizes your talent and innovativeness, and these are your best advertisements.

Besides, quality handmade guitars and violins typically start at much higher prices anyway. Are they harder to build than ouds? I don't think so. To get a "decent" violin I had to pay $6000 - very cheap in the violin world. Are there violins that are much cheaper and sound as good? Highly doubtful - I tried at least 50 in one week before I chose mine, and have suffered from my impulsive ebay mistakes often enough to know better.

I look forward to the day when our music and instruments are seen as equals to Western music and instruments, and have an equal or larger audience as well. And if anyone thinks that by writing this, I'm helping to raise oud prices, I'd say they are wrong. If oud prices generally become too high for oud players, they will fall. But if oud prices are too low for makers to survive and make a profit, they will go up. Simple economics.

There's nothing wrong with shopping for the best deal, it's only logical. But if you don't like someone's prices, then don't buy from them. Just as if you don't like someone's music, don't listen to it. No need to be negative on such a big scale.

Take care,

mavrothis

Mike - 2-11-2008 at 08:59 PM

Dear Usta Faruk,
I'm with Mav. Your reputation and your ouds speak for themselves. I'm just following this thread you mentioned for the first time. It's unfortunate that ouds of your quality are compared to an inexpensive ebay oud. As a merchant, you are free to ask whatever price you wish. In turn, as consumers we are free to pay whatever we want for our merchandise. I look forward to witnessing the continued happiness your ouds bring to members in these forums. Jassim is the latest and before him have been countless others. Wishing you continued success.
Best,
Mike

P.S. I have edited the email of katakofka out of respect for his privacy.

rebetostar - 2-11-2008 at 10:14 PM

One of the interesting effects of the global marketplace.. the best oud makers can now charge just as much as the best violin and guitar-makers. The downside of selling for such a high price is your buyer may be a wealthy collector rather than a talented player. Still, the best makers may choose to whom they sell, and for what price.
One should treat such vociferous opinions as one treats a mosquito bite.. annoying, but not worth getting upset about.

JT - 2-12-2008 at 12:04 AM

Hello Oustaz Faruk,

Theres no one in the world that can bring your reputation down. You're an amazing person and are superb at what you do, so I wouldnt worry about it, your instruments speak for themselves...I particularly like your Joseph Tawadros signature model:applause::D
Although he is an awful player and he really doesnt deserve such an honour.:))

JT

Ararat66 - 2-12-2008 at 12:59 AM

Hello Faruk

I can see why you are upset. You put your heart and soul into something which means however brilliant and expert you get there is always that vulnerability there - its emotional, very artistic !!

It is this that stops you stagnating and simply just knocking out 'dry' instruments - and why people are queueing to get you ouds.

When I look at your ouds I think of how much time they take to make plus the experience and sensitivity that only years of making can bring. Then if I look at the cost and divide it by the time - for a top quality instrument this makes for amazing value.

I'm not trying to increase prices, just to step back and appreciate the situation. If you charged too much relative to the high quality, people would probably stop buying from you ... but they are not.

Please be reassured that your presence and art is greatly appreciated, and that luthiers give wings to the musician. I know you have also helped many other well known luthiers in developing their art form and carry great respect within both circles.

Best regards

Leon

DaveH - 2-12-2008 at 04:08 AM

Mavrothis, what you say, 100%. I respect Katakofka's opinon that the ouds are over priced IN HIS OPINION, but I respect anyone's right to pay a substantial amount of money for a an instrument whose sound they're going to love. I even respect their right to pay even more for beautiful finishing and loads of inlay (though i personally wouldn't go so much for the latter). And I respect the makers' right to take their money! We are talking about fantastic craftsmen here. And none of these guys are rich - it's not like they're the Armani family and you're paying for their name on a suit or something. Maybe it's best in future to stick to what appeared to be a very gentlemanly unwritten rule on these forums not to discuss prices. That way the client and the maker are free to negotiate privately. And if mentioning the prices does drive them up (which I doubt), this unwritten rule would also overcome that problem.

Greg - 2-12-2008 at 04:18 AM

Dear Faruk,

In my part of the world, we have a term called, "The Tall Poppy Syndrome." The same term is apparently also used in the United Kingdom and Canada.

What it amounts to is that there will always be some people who take joy in trying to reduce highly successful people down to their level (cutting the heads off the tall poppies). The people that do this, usually have an elevated sense of their own importance and their own capabilities, but feel slighted when the rest of the world doesn't agree with their self-evaluation.
You have earned a reputation as one of the finest oud luthiers in the world and your instruments are highly prized by musicians in every part of the world.
Similarly, Jassim has earned great praise on these forums for his tasteful and beautiful playing. He has the rare ability to capture the essence of the music, without resorting to flashy, meaningless and inappropriate displays of technique. A true musician.

On these forums, you have both earned high praise. It was only a matter of time before the Tall Poppy Syndrome would take effect.

Regards,

Greg

katakofka - 2-12-2008 at 06:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by farukturunz


A SIMPLE NOTE: I noticed that he deleted his E-Mail address in the profile page of the forums. It was in the place two days ago.Why did you suddenly need to disguise Mr. Suheil?:xtreme:

HERE IS HIS EVALUATION BEFORE HE HAD SENT HIS THREAD “Oud sound Test”


From: s.....@hotmail.com Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
To: "Faruk Turunz" <farukturunz@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Oud
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:27:55 -0500
Thanks Mr Faruk for your reply. I have seen so many videos of players having ouds done by yourself. If you are providing such great sound with fixed bridge do you think with a floating one sounds might be better? more resonnance e.g? I just want to know your opinion in comparing both type of fixed or floating brigde.
thanks again
Souheil



Dear Mr Faruk,

I pointed out that the greatest Oud done by you when putting low tension strings it makes buzz. Please look back to the sound oud test thread point number 3. Some people like the buzz and some not. I am from the second category. As simple as that. By the way, my email was deleted since I begin to get personal attack in that thread.
You aslo talked about a correspondance between you and me, dated on January 18. Couple of weeks before that my Nahaat 1947 Oud was broken. I got a cheap Oud from the net just to try a floating bridge Oud. I liked the sound and I begin to asking questions. At the time of the email you mentioned, I was hesitating between a floating bridge Oud or a fixed bridge Oud. I emailed you asking about this issue and also I corresponded with many other oudmakers.
Then I emailed you Mr Faruk regarding the prices of a guitar like brigde that I saw in JT hands on youtube. I got no answer from you probably because you put the prices on your website and I didn't noticed. Meanwhile, I asked JT, in this forum, if he preferes the sound of this Oud better that others. JT said no, he found no differences between a guitar bridge-like or a classical fixed brigde.
I was in no way attacking your Ouds. I was just pointing out the fact about the prices and my concern was about the market.

katakofka - 2-12-2008 at 07:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JT

Although he is an awful player and he really doesnt deserve such an honour.:))

JT


Dear JT,

you might loooooove my way of playing if I posted a Bachraf or a Samaa3i or any classical lounga traditional music. I used to play them when I was at your age probably.

I earn my living not from Oud. My work is related to research, medical research. The Oud for me is a hobby. I allow myself to do experimental music on Oud, as I do experiements in Laboratories. Czardaz piece for Vittorio Monti that I posted in the forum I consider it a first draft, a try. I posted it, not affraid, with all the mess in it just to say that it's feasable on Oud. In a year I hope posting it, clean, complete, well done.
Yesterday I found this link, a professional player playing Czardaz on Oud.
http://www.salemabdulkarem.com/music.htm
I didn't like it that much from him.
I would be glad sending you the scores, if you don't have it. Play it, post it, and show us the way it should be executed on Oud. A youtube would be better, because we can see the positions your left hand on the fingerboard.
Thanks
Souheil

katakofka - 2-12-2008 at 07:24 AM

Here is the little discussion with JT related to the bridge issue.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7209#pid448...
My concerm Mr Faruk is the sound quality of the Oud, not at all attacking your work.

farukturunz - 2-12-2008 at 07:32 AM

Mawrudis, Mike, rebetostar, Joe, Leon, DaveH, and Greg,

Thanks to all! I have already known all of you as people who are appreciative of merit

and

Dear Mr. Souheil,

None of your explanations has to do any thing with the art of oud making. I do not assume you to know the technical details of this issue but every serious person must gulp twice before saying something dealing with a subject which is far from his or her branch of knowledge. The buzzing sound may come out as the result of several factors: 1- lose brace, 2- thin face and weak bracing, 3- a detached rosette, 4- little action.

I make the braces as resistant as possible and needed in accordance with my special brace tuning method. Several times I posted pictures to these forums showing the bracing of my ouds. Every body capable to evaluate them will admit that they are stiff elements not to cause a weak bracing syndrome.

The thinnest soundboard that I may have built so far is thicker than 1,5mm.

Eventually the sole cause is the very little action.

There is no need to say that it is as easy as shelling peas for me to make an oud with 2,5mm action which never cause "a buzzing sound".

I always adjust the two parameters: 1-the neck angle, 2- the hight of the holes on the bridge so that the action becomes just 1,5mm. I do not apply the easiest way: make the action 2,5mm and no buzz!

Because I am responsible for the future lives of my ouds. I know that they will retrieve a stable state in a year's time and there will be no more a buzzing.

Best regards,

katakofka - 2-12-2008 at 07:41 AM

Thanks Mr Faruk. Now I got the answers. Forgive my ignorance in that field. All what I am looking for is a good oud sound.

Best

farukturunz - 2-12-2008 at 07:52 AM

Not at all Mr. Souheyl
For what I have devoted 25 years of my life is good sounding ouds.:)

Best

katakofka - 2-12-2008 at 08:08 AM

okay, hard and bad feelings aside (I hope :)) back to the old issue. I didn't get your point of view when you said that floating bridge Ouds do not have an oud "taste" in one of the correspondance between us. Do you mean that the sound is not an Oud sound? Physically speaking, what would be the explanation for that? is it related to strings ossiallition that affecting the sound or to the way a floating bridge oud is constructed?
Thanks

farukturunz - 2-12-2008 at 08:25 AM

Both:))

Thread closed

Mike - 2-12-2008 at 08:42 AM

Dear Usta Faruk & Mr. Souheil,

Just a few things, and then this thread will be closed.

First: I want to thank you both for resolving your issues like gentlemen. I was worried that this thread could erupt into another full on controversy, but because this issue is now resolved, I will close this thread. I'll also close the other "sound test" thread, as Greg pointed out, the topic of the thread transformed into another topic altogether. (Decided to keep it open) I welcome katakofka to open another thread with a similar theme for everybody to enjoy.

Second: Thanks to all of those who showed their appreciation and support for Usta Faruk. His instruments are truly works of art. In my opinion, he is one of the top Turkish oudmakers in the world today. Anytime somebody emails me for advice when looking for Turkish ouds, Usta Faruk is always recommended.

Third: Mr. Souheil . . . Joe (JT) was not referring to your playing, but rather his own. The honor was that of having a signature oud made by Usta Faruk. He was in no way criticizing your playing. It was confusing, so I can see how you misunderstood it as a reference to your playing.

Finally: I just want to clarify a few things about Mr. Souheil. All he is doing is his research before purchasing an instrument. I think we can all appreciate and understand that. He is obviously a very fine player (who I enjoyed listening to a lot) for the oud only being a hobby. I commend him. Also, he contacted me asking about Maurice's ouds. After a few back and forth emails and a nice phone conversation (Souheil is really a nice guy...I could tell from the phone call), he kindly told me that he decided not to go with Maurice, but rather a different maker. One thing I want to point out, is that who he decided to go with was MORE expensive than the prices Maurice quoted him for a floating bridge oud. So that just goes to show that Mr. Souheil is not cheap, and appreciates quality craftsmanship and instruments. Personally, I look forward to katakofka's continued involvement in the forums.


Thanks guys,
Mike

Mike - 2-12-2008 at 08:44 AM

Hi Usta Faruk and Souheil Bey,

I just noticed that you guys continued the discussion regarding the floating bridge. You did it as I was typing my last response. :-)

I would like to ask you guys to open a new thread please with an appropriate thread title, as this one is now closed.

Thank you,
Mike