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Analysis of an Early Oud Woodcut

jdowning - 6-22-2008 at 07:34 AM

Browsing through a few of my old files the other day I came across this woodcut of what appears at first sight to be a rather quaint depiction of an early oud. However, a preliminary analysis of the geometry of this illustration, assuming that it is not a rough drawing but an accurate and precise representation of an early oud, has revealed some interesting and close correlations with early lute design that will be posted later.

First of all does anyone know the original source document from which this illustration is taken and its date (14th C?). The wood cut is unfamiliar to me but may be well known to other forum members. Identification of the source should help confirm that the illustration is indeed that of an oud and not some other closely related instrument

ALAMI - 6-22-2008 at 10:37 AM

The title on top of the page is : ..?.. Al Oud.
So it is a oud.

No idea regarding the source, but the six branches star may be related to a jewish luthier. I've heard from a luthier of some Moroccan-Jewish oud luthier old manuscripts he saw once in France.

Peyman - 6-22-2008 at 11:14 AM

I have the exact image in a book on persian musical instruments. The only caption says that it's from old persian manuscripts, which might be erroneous. The image is included with another oud picture from "kanzoltohaf" which I posted about in these forums some time last year. The pictures from kanzoltohaf are rough and not as refined as this one but they are from about the same time period, which makes me think that this picture is relatively newer.

jdowning - 6-22-2008 at 12:52 PM

Thank you ALAMI and Peyman - this is a promising start to this little investigation. Using the search tool, I could not find references on the forum to the "kanzoltohaf". Do you have a date for those pictures Peyman?
If the script at the top of the page reads 'Al Oud' then we might assume that the image is indeed that of an oud but, at the present time, the provenance or historical time frame of the image is unknown.

ALAMI - 6-22-2008 at 01:41 PM

I was sure that I've seen this before, I searched my bookmarks.
The same pic is on a website, it is a long page, the pic is around 20% down.

http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-2.html

the legend says:

Oud-lute, 5 course, fretted, Arab music theory treatise, c.1334

and it seems to be scanned from page 81 of a book

Peyman - 6-22-2008 at 02:31 PM

It seems like the posts have been deleted. I scanned it again. The oud on the left is from the Kanzoltohaf which is included with your picture. The Kanzoltohaf image is about 6 centuries old. There are 4 copies that survive. It's unknown when Kanzoltohaf was written, but from the context, it's estimated to be 6 centuries old. Just to point, the old ouds did have 4 or 5 frets and were strung with 4 or 5 single strings. This one being doubled could be more mdern. Just my 2 cents.

jdowning - 6-22-2008 at 05:55 PM

Interesting.
Both posted images appear to be identical in all respects (with the exception of the double line border) and there is at least some confirmation that the woodcut image may date from around the 14th C.
So, starting at the top of the image, the drawing of the peg box is clearly not intended to be a 'real life' representation, but nevertheless conveys important details of design. The oud is shown with 5 double courses and the pegbox, fitted as it is with 10 pegs, confirms this fact. (this is an important detail as early illustrations of instruments sometimes do not show this agreement between the number of strings and number of pegs).
The peg box is 'sickle' shaped unlike the 'S' shaped form of modern oud pegboxes or the straight sided pegboxes found in lutes and some early ouds. Sickle shaped pegboxes are also found in some early Western European plucked stringed instruments like the guitar shaped viola da mano, lute shaped 'gitterns' and citterns for example but with a difference - in all of these instruments the peg boxes are set back at quite a shallow angle to the neck. The peg box of the oud , on the other hand, is represented in the woodcut as being set at an extreme angle to the neck so in this respect is strictly oud (or lute) like. I am not sure of the purpose function of the sharp 'finial' at the end of the pegbox - simply decorative perhaps?
The fifth course on the oud was introduced by minstrel Ziryab at the court of Khalif Harun (d. 809) according to scholar Dr. Henry George Farmer "Studies in Oriental Musical Instruments".

jdowning - 6-23-2008 at 05:25 AM

Examining the image more closely, I have come to the conclusion that the print may be part woodcut and part engraved - but as I have little knowledge about early printing technologies I am open to correction here.
Printing from wood cuts is a form of relief printing where the surface of a wooden block is cut away to leave raised areas of the design to be printed. The surface of the block is then coated with ink and pressed onto a sheet of paper to leave an ink impression.
In intaglio printing the design is cut into a flat plate of stone or metal with an engraving tool. The surface of the completed plate is first inked and then wiped clean - leaving ink in the fine engraved lines of the design. The plate is then placed on a moistened sheet of paper and subject to pressure sufficient to force the paper into the engraved lines and pick up the residual ink to form a print.
The print of the oud may have been accomplished in two stages. The more precise line details are likely some kind of intaglio printing. Note the criss-crossing of the lines representing the strings and frets on the fingerboard and at the corners of the border of the print which might be difficult if not impossible to achieve in a wood cut. Note also faint traces of what seem to be layout marks made by a compass at the bottom of the image - careless work by the engraver perhaps as the marks seem to be cut into the original plate (more on this later). One way to confirm if this technique was used would be to examine the original print as intaglio printing normally leaves a distinctive depression of the plate in the paper.
The Arabic script and the cruder design of the pegbox may be a woodcut print overlay on the engraved printed image - the printing plates being registered to ensure correct alignment of the components of the print?
Engraved intaglio prints were first used in Europe around the mid 15th C but the technique may have been adopted from other cultures (Middle East?) where it was used at an earlier date than this?

jdowning - 6-23-2008 at 06:11 AM

Continuing to review and comment upon details of the print, the oud is fitted with seven frets. It is generally accepted, from the research work of Dr Farmer and others, that early ouds were fretted at least into the 14th C but that some oudists of the time - such as Ibn al-Tahan - had abandoned use of frets because these players knew the place of every note on the fingerboard without need for frets. If the engraving is a precise representation of the geometry of an oud then the fingerboard is wider and more lute like than is found today on modern ouds. Early lutes were usually fitted with seven or eight frets but expert lutenists would often play with equal facility in higher (fret less) positions on the soundboard. No doubt oudists of the era did the same.
Frets may be tied on the neck of a lute either as a single or double strand but is is not obvious from the engraving if the frets are single or double.
The engraver has taken the trouble to represent binding around the edge of the soundboard which may possibly also serve as a datum point needed for layout of the oud geometry.
The fixed bridge has decorative carved ends in a style similar to bridges found on some surviving lutes of the late 16th C.
It is a striking (and unusual?) feature that the oud only has two small sound holes. If it is to be argued that the engraving is an accurate geometrical representation then perhaps this is how the oud was - without a larger main rose. However, it is possible that the main rose was omitted by the engraver for clarity - to avoid visually confusing the string layout - however that is just speculation but an idea worth exploring a little further later.
ALAMI suggests that the oud represented in the print may have been made by a Jewish luthier - because of the Star of David design in the roses. Another possibility might be that the engraver of the plate was Jewish - perhaps a gold smith expert in engraving metals - working in a tolerant cross cultural environment (Moorish "Spain"?). Interesting thoughts but speculation nevertheless.
Now to examine the external geometry of the oud.

Peyman - 6-23-2008 at 06:59 AM

One interesting point is that the oud from kanzoltohaf is floating bridge but the other is fixed bridge. I'd be interested to know which type was more prominent at the time. But it seems that the fixed bridge was more of a European tradition, because most persian miniatures (from the middle ages) I have seen show the oud with floating bridge. Perhaps that gives strength to the idea that there is a good chance the print is of European origin.

jdowning - 6-24-2008 at 09:19 AM

ALAMI - Thanks for the link to the R.E. Blumberg website on early European fretted instruments and the Cipher. It all looks very interesting and informative so look forward to reading what the author has to say when I get time. Also, there are a large number of good quality images of the instruments for information and for detailed study - most that are well known to researchers in the field but some that are not so well known.
Unfortunately, although an identical image of the oud currently under examination in this post appears on the site, the original source of the print is not given by Blumberg - only that it is from an Arab music theory treatise of the early 14th C.
I am interested to know the title of the original source, when and where is was published and by whom

Peyman - I am a bit confused about the "kanzoltohaf" book. Is this the early 14th C 'Arab music theory treatise' referred to by Blumberg or is it just a collection of early images and texts taken from a variety of original sources relating to early Persian instruments?
The images of the floating bridge instruments that you have posted do not look like ouds to my Western eye any more than I would regard a 19th C American banjo to be lute. If the oud is the direct ancestor of the European lute - as I assume that it is (although some may disagree) - then I am looking for and expect to find close similarities or correlation in structure and geometry between the two instruments in both their ancient and modern classical forms. Both instruments should be unequivocally identified by characteristic defining features - including a wooden staved half-pear shaped bowl, a braced wooden soundboard and a fixed bridge. The modern floating bridge oud would appear to be a very recent development dating from the late 1950's(?) so is excluded from these historical comparisons.
Surviving gut strung European lutes - as far as I am aware - all have fixed bridges which I assume was an important feature adopted directly from the oud rather than dictated by any European tradition.
I doubt if the source of the original print is European but remain open minded about that possibility. The possibility of the development of the Arabic oud being in part influenced by European lute design is an intriguing thought

jdowning - 6-24-2008 at 12:52 PM

The geometry of the oud will be examined in stages - for the sake of clarity.
The first stage is to look at the external geometry.
An exact tracing was made of the engraving of the oud and the geometry was determined - by trial and error - using dividers. The craftsman who made the original engraved plate for the print made an error in engraving the contour of the bottom left quadrant of the oud profile (it is too large in radius) but the right hand quadrant, like the rest of the profile, appears to be precise in its execution. The engraver also left faintly scribed layout markings on the print plate but (fortunately!) did not take the trouble to erase them.
The first datum point to be established is the line XY drawn through the centres of the two small rosettes or sound-holes. Scribing the arc R1 from the centre of of XY precisely defines the geometry of the bottom curve of the oud profile. Arc R2 is a curve of radius equal to the maximum soundboard width and precisely defines the geometry of the upper part of the oud profile. R3 - drawn from a point where the circumference of radius R1 intersects the centre-line of the oud and meets R2 at a tangent, defines the width of the neck at the end of the fingerboard (i.e. the width of the neck joint).
The distance from the bottom of the belly to the front edge of the bridge (AB) is equal to a sixth of the overall length of the oud soundboard (AC) i.e. a distance measured from the bottom of the soundboard to the neck joint.
The diameters of the small sound-holes are one fifth of the maximum width of the belly XY.
So far so good!

Peyman - 6-24-2008 at 04:12 PM

The manuscript known as kanzoltohaf is a rare breed as far as music manuscripts go. For one, it was written in Persian and not Arabic. Also the author goes in length to describe how several instruments are built and gives the ratios. The drawings are not to scale because that type of drawing was not practiced at the time. The instrument drawings are also a unique feature to this manuscript as far as I know.
But this discussion makes me think that perhaps there were separation between different styles of oud, just like it exists today. There are a variety of ouds now (Iraqi vs. Turkish and so on) and maybe that holds true for then. Just a thought.

jdowning - 6-25-2008 at 03:48 AM

Thanks Peyman. So has the precise engraving of the oud currently under examination been taken from another original source (i.e. an 'Arab music theory treatise of circa 1334'- a source yet to be determined and verified) and incorporated in the kanzoltohaf manuscript by its author? Is the script associated with the engraving - ie the title and identification of the nut, bridge and strings - Persian or Arabic?

jdowning - 6-25-2008 at 05:48 AM

Checking Dr. H.G. Farmer's work "Studies in Oriental Musical Instruments" he makes several references to the Persian manuscript "Kanz al-tuhaf" (that I take to be the very same as kanzoltohaf).

In "The Structure of the Arabian and Persian Lute" chapter 5, Dr Farmer adds the following footnote about the Kanz al-tuhaf manuscript "Its date is fixed by a chronogram which is either 1346, 1355 or 1362. Manuscripts are to be found in several libraries. In the present case it is the British Museum copy, Or. 2361, fol. 261v, which has been used"
In his "Was the Arabian and Persian Lute Fretted" chapter 3 Farmer observes that out of hundreds of pictures depicting ouds dating from the 13th to the 20th C not one shows any trace of frets but that Persian writers al-Shirazi (died 1310), al-Amuli (14th C) and Ibn Ghaibi (died 1435) all refer to frets. He also mentions that the author of Kanz al-tuhaf was Muhammad al- Amuli and that almost every instrument depicted in the manuscript is out of proportion whilst the strings are entirely omitted.
What is really puzzling is that Farmer makes no mention at all of the engraving of the oud currently under investigation in this thread which is rather odd considering that here, apparently, is an early example of an oud depicted in proper proportions and shown with both strings and frets. So what is the origin of this print?

ALAMI - 6-25-2008 at 06:42 AM

This print seems to be fairly known, it seems to be commonly attributed to the Arab Music Treatise of Safi al-din Al Urmawi (1216-1294).
I have a scan of the manuscript of Kitab Al Adwar, I checked and it is not there (but I am not sure if the scan I have is complete).
What is sure is that in his work, Al-Urmawi is considering a 5 string oud as the common oud.
Al Urmawi wrote a second book ca 1265 called al-Risala al-sharafiyya fi al-nisab al-ta'lifiyya (The Sharafian Treatise on Musical Proportions). maybe the drawing is from this book

I am attaching a long article on Al urmawi by Dr Fazli Arslan

ALAMI - 6-25-2008 at 08:20 AM

After some googling around I found on the site of luthier David Van Edwards a reference for the same pic:

http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/Ud.htm

It is referenced as courtesy of lute player Davide Rebuffa who confirms that it is from Al Urmawi's Kitab Al Adwar. (but without citing a reference)

This very drawing was also the subject of a discussion on the lute boards of Dartmouth College between Van Edwards and rebuffa and others.
Rebuffa insists on the Urmawi origin (BUT .... still without mentioning a solid source):

-------------
"the picture of the 'ud is from the book of Safi al Din 'Abd al-Mu'min b.Fakr al-Urmawi" Kitab al -adwar" written in 1333-34.
It is an important arab treatise on musical theory ( he also wrote onother
one) and it was written while Safi ad-Din was working in the library of the
Caliph al-Mustassim.
The oldest known copy ot the kitab al-adwar was finished in 633/1236 ( Ms
Nuruosmaniye 3653) when the author was only 20 years old.! ( did he write
it?) Cronologically it is the first scientific treatise on music after that
of Ibn Sina.
-----------------------

The full discussion link:

http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg01602.html

I also found out accidentally that Rebuffa posted once on these Forums in a topic about an old egyptian oud

Internet is still (sometimes) amazing

Peyman - 6-25-2008 at 10:52 AM

Alami, thanks for posting the article on Urmavi. I know about his treatise on music but haven't taken the time to read it.
As far as the picture goes, I am pretty sure it's not from Kanzoltohaf. I also doubt that it would be from Urmavi's "original" book. It might have been added to it later. The only way to find out is to see if any of Urmavi's actual hand writings survive.

I also wanted to add to the discussion on frets. I remember discussing (within the three of us) some persian words such as "Dastan" and "Pardeh" both of which can be interchangeably translated to frets. Dastan, lit. "Hands" could also mean hand positioning. So one could think of these frets as Hand positions rather than actual wrapped gut frets. (The repertoir of persian music is sometimes called Dast-gah, meaning hand positioning.)
The other point about Farmer not finding frets on ouds could also come from having different types of ouds. Abdolghader Maraghei wrote 2 manuscripts where he discussed musical instruments. I have to re-read to be sure but he mentions different types of ouds some of which are: Oud-al-ghadim (old oud), Shah-rood (king oud, some kind of a bass oud), Oud-al-Mokemmel (the Complete oud with 7 strings, I think). I am guessing that some musicians decided to remove the frets. Anyway, I am curious to read more about your findings.

One last question I have is about the origins of the European Lute. At one point did the oud come to Europe? Is there a clear answer to this? Was it through the Moors or was it from the East?
I have a cool Urmavi picture that I will post later...

jdowning - 6-25-2008 at 12:22 PM

Thank you for posting the information ALAMI and for your additional interesting observations Peyman.
Farmer mentions both Risalat al-sharafiyya and kitab al-adwar of Safi al-Din in his research paper "Was the Arabian and Persian Lute Fretted" (Farmer seems to prefer to use 'lute' rather than 'oud' for some reason). He was clearly very familiar with the original manuscripts as primary source documents for he writes
" Indeed every other manuscript of the Risalat al-sharafiyya and Kitab al-adwar of Safi al-Din which I have examined contains a single line for each string" and he then lists, in a footnote, each of seven manuscript sources that he consulted in his research. Yet he makes no reference to this engraving of an oud when arguing in support of fretted ouds. Therefore, I would agree with Peyman in suspecting that the engraving does not appear in Kitab al-adwar (or in al-Risala al-sharafiyya) - unless added to manuscript copies made after the death of Safi al-Din (in 1294).

Farmer in "Was the Arabian and Persian Lute Fretted" concludes that the absence of frets from iconographic sources of the period can only be explained by recognising that by the 13th C. the use of frets on the oud had already generally fallen into neglect.
Farmer is convincing in his arguments in support of 'dasatin' being interpreted as tied on frets by quoting several original sources in support of his arguments. In particular he quotes Ibn al-Tahan (14th C) as recommending that "four rolls of gut string were required to fret an oud". This, of course, is Farmer's translation of the original text that I am in no position to verify.
The question about the origins of the European lute is a good one and may not be as clear cut as Western researchers in the past would have us believe - i.e. simply that the oud was introduced through Moorish Spain. More recently others have argued that the lute came to Europe from the East via the Balkans, Byzantium etc. I suspect that both possibilities may be valid but likely impossible to prove with any certainty a millennium later. No harm in trying though!

jdowning - 6-26-2008 at 06:42 AM

In stage 1 of the analysis the profile of the oud is precisely defined by arcs R1 and R2.
In retrospect, the construction given by arc R3 will now be discounted in defining the position and width of the neck joint. Currently the position of the neck joint has been taken directly from the engraving - represented by a line drawn between the intersection points where the sides of the fingerboard meet the upper curves of the soundboard profile. The total length of the body of the oud is then defined as the distance AC from the bottom of the soundboard to the neck joint. Arc R3 does not determine this position. Also the width of the neck joint is dictated by the location of the neck joint relative to the body of the oud not by arc R3.
So far there is no obvious geometrical construction that defines the exact position of the neck joint.

Moving on to stage 2 of this analysis. Turning to the faintly scribed lines visible at the bottom of the engraving, these appear to contact the inside edge of the banding profile at the bottom of soundboard. By trial and error, using dividers, the best match is given by the arc R4 with its centre located at the mid point of line ab drawn just above the two soundholes. We can speculate, with some degree of confidence, that the soundboard might be supported in this area by a brace located on either side of the soundholes. Let lines ab and cd represent the positions of these braces.
Speculating further, we will conclude that arc R4 touches and defines the position of the inside edge of the neck block. We will also assume that it touches and defines the inside edge of a shallow end block located at the bottom of the oud body. This feature would be better described as an end plate - a thin reinforcement plate glued inside the bottom of the bowl. This type of reinforcement is the standard form of construction found in surviving European lutes of the 16th and 17th C and is usually a strip of softwood about 2-3 mm thick - but can also be found in older ouds.
From this construction we can see that the distance measured from the bottom of the soundboard to brace ab (i.e. distance AE) is exactly 1/3 of the total distance measured from the bottom of the soundboard A to the front edge of the nut G. Interestingly, if the length of the neck is defined as including the length of the neck block (i.e. distance FG), then it can be seen that the length of the neck is almost exactly 1/3 of the overall length of the oud - a ratio that, apparently, is often to be found on modern ouds (except that in the latter case the neck measurement does not include the neck block).

jdowning - 6-26-2008 at 10:15 AM

Correction! The neck length on a modern oud of traditional design is 1/3 of the string length - not 1/3 of total overall length as stated in the previous post.

jdowning - 6-26-2008 at 12:31 PM

Moving on to stage 3 of the analysis. In order to explore the geometrical construction possibilities further we must again speculate.
The oud engraving is shown with only two small soundholes but it would be interesting to investigate the geometry of an oud of this profile that has three sound holes but how would we determine the location and size of this sound hole?

Those of you who have been following threads of this nature over the past year may recognise the geometric profile of the oud. It is identical to the earliest known construction of a lute in a mid 15th C manuscript by Arnault de Zwolle - so let us use the Arnault geometry as a guide. (A search on the forum for 'Arnault de Zwolle' will show the Arnault lute drawing for those not already familiar with it).
The single sound hole of the Arnault lute is located mid way between the "head" of the lute and the front of the bridge. The "head" in this case is determined by drawing an arc R3a from the inside edge of the neck block (from the same centre point used for arc R3 in stage 1 analysis). This arc intersects the centreline of the oud at point H which is the "head" location of the Arnault lute. Dividing line HB into two equal parts gives the centre of the large sound hole at R (i.e. distance HR is equal to BR).
The diameter of the soundhole in the Arnault lute is 1/3 of the transverse line ef drawn through the centre of the soundhole. The lower edge of the sound hole touches our first bar ab. Where the upper edge of the sound hole intersects the centre line of the oud is the location for the centre of arc R5 which contacts the sound board profile at a tangent and defines the location of the neck joint - the missing geometrical connection!
We can now locate braces at ab, cd, ef and gh necessary to support the sound board over the area weakened by the sound holes.

SamirCanada - 6-26-2008 at 01:24 PM

you are going really deep with this document.
Hopefully your curiosity leads you to reconstruct this oud.

wishful thinking perhaps but you are close enough that I would be tempted to try it.

jdowning - 6-27-2008 at 04:52 AM

Sooner or later I shall get around to making a reconstruction of an early oud - based on evidence of this kind - possibly modelled after this instrument, if the original source can be confirmed.
I do not recall having seen any European paintings or iconography that depict a lute with two (or three) sound holes in this configuration - which is an indication that the the original source is likely not European. However, are there any examples of paintings from the Middle East (or Moorish Spain) that depict ouds with just two small soundholes?

jdowning - 6-28-2008 at 09:58 AM

A couple more observations before moving ahead.
The centre of each small sound hole - measured from the edge of the sound board is given by the distance from the front edge of the bridge (B) to brace cd.
Although the position of the neck joint in this case is given by arc R3a, in practice the exact position would depend upon the width of the fingerboard at the neck joint. In this case, if the width was to be made slightly narrower, the position of the joint would be repositioned a little towards point H and the relationship found on modern ouds of the neck length (fingerboard length - nut front edge to neck joint) being 1/3 of the string length would apply.

Having established possible brace locations from the external geometry of the oud engraving and the identical external geometry of the Arnault lute, we can now examine how this compares with other historical lute bracing geometry.
Marin Mersenne writing in 1636 gives the precise basic barring layout of a lute of his time. Dividing the sound board into eight equal parts - the 8th part being 'where the neck begins' - six braces are glued to the sound board on parts 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. The centre of the rose is located in the middle of part 5. The bridge position is determined by dividing part 1 and 2 into three equal parts, the bridge being glued upon the second part - which is placed above the bridge. (In other words the second of the three parts defines the front edge of the bridge).
The 8th part is the inside edge of the neck block not the neck joint position - so Mersenne's barring placement refers to the length of the sound board free to vibrate i.e. from the inside edge of the end plate to the inside edge of the neck block.

In our earlier analysis of the oud engraving we found that the arc R4, faintly visible in the original print, also defines the same vibrating length of the sound board. Dividing this distance into eight parts - we find that the braces ab, ef, and gh are located on part 4, 5 and 6 and that the centre of the main rose (if there was one) is in the centre of part 5 - all exactly as given by Mersenne. Mersenne calls for a brace on parts 2 and 3 but the oud only has a single brace cd located, however, midway between part 2 and 3. Mersenne also calls for a single bar on part seven to support the area above the rose. Instead of a single bar at part 7, some surviving lutes have two bars located equidistant on either side of part seven. Interestingly, on our oud, the distance between the centres of arc R3a and R5 is exactly 1/3 the distance between the top edge of the main sound hole and the inside edge of the neck block giving the possible location of two more bars (represented here as dashed lines).
Dividing part 1 and 2 into three parts we find that the front edge of the bridge lies exactly on the second part of the three parts as given by Mersenne.
This is probably about as far as we can go in speculating about brace positions on an oud of this particular geometry and might apply regardless of whether the oud has one, two or three soundholes.
The correlation of the brace arrangement with that given by Mersenne is astonishing. The lutes of Mersenne's time were generally longer and narrower in profile than that given by the oud engraving - which likely explains the substitution of two braces at parts 2 and 3 instead of the oud's single brace in this location. Ouds of a later period having longer narrower profiles also have two braces in this location like the lute. Ouds of a later period also often have a single bar positioned below the bridge (unlike lutes which do not appear to have this feature).

jdowning - 6-28-2008 at 12:43 PM

For comparison, the attached image shows the equivalent geometrical construction for the Arnault de Zwolle lute. The many similarities are obvious. At variance with the oud engraving (and our proposed construction) the Arnault lute has a single large soundhole, a large end block, and three braces. Arnault makes it clear that the neck of his lute is long (of undefined length but much longer than the neck of any surviving European lute of the 16/17th C or that shown in the oud engraving) - so long in fact that Arnault explains that he could not correctly represent it full size on the page in the space available!
On the Arnault lute braces are placed at the top edge of the sound hole (equivalent to brace gh on the oud), at the maximum width of the sound board (equivalent to the centre line of the small sound holes on the oud) and at the location of brace cd on the oud.

Scales A and B represent the division of the sound board into
8 parts in accordance with the Mersenne instructions. Clearly the fit of scale A measured between the inside edges of the end and neck blocks (representing the free vibrating length of the soundboard) is not the best match but scale B is pretty close. This could mean that - given the margin of error in measurement - our oud either might have an Arnault sized end block - or that the Arnault lute had a thin end plate - the block shown being only part of the lute mold and not incorporated in the bowl of the lute itself. Also, while it is possible that a brace might have been positioned across the centres of the small sound holes, this would not conform to practice found in modern ouds where a brace located on each side of the small sound holes.

Arnault de Zwolle Geometry (454 x 600).jpg - 43kB

jdowning - 6-29-2008 at 12:43 PM

To complete this study, it would appear that the engraving is an accurate representation of the exterior profile of an oud of the late 13th/early 14th C (?) but what about the frets? Assuming that these are also accurately represented and positioned (although they may not be) and calculating fret positions as they would be on a lute ( Western equal temperament) we can see that the
neck/fingerboard is just long enough to accommodate seven frets based on the Westen European scale. Seven frets are also represented on the engraving but they obviously do not match the lute fretting arrangement.
However, fret number 7 on the engraving corresponds to fret 5 on the lute fretting geometry. This fret position is 1/4 of the total vibrating string length which may be significant.
Farmer in his "The Lute Scale of Avicenna" translates into English part of the text of the Kitab al-shifa of Ibn Sina (died in 1037) which deals with fretting of the oud and the ratios of string length to fret positions, including" the oud is divided between the bridge (musht) and the nut (anf) upon a quarter of the whole length and there is tied the lowest fret (i.e. the last fret) called the 4th finger fret (khinsir) fret".
So does the 7th fret in the engraving represent the khinsir fret? If so, how do the other fret positions match the scales given in the various Arabic theoretical works? I am not in a position to comment with any authority on that question but there may be others who can?

Oud Fretting (518 x 600) (388 x 450).jpg - 42kB

ALAMI - 6-29-2008 at 01:17 PM

Some links related to oud fretting theories:

a practice in the mathematics of tuning instruments and analyzing scales
http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm

Arab Lute Frettings
http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/arablute/arablute.htm

Very "heavy" material !

I was able to understand (and I may be wrong) that the little finger fret (khinsir) is the 9th fret which is placed at 1/4 of the distance between the meeting point of the strings and their other ends attached to the bridge.

[

jdowning - 6-30-2008 at 06:09 AM

Thanks for the links ALAMI. They look interesting and worth reading.
The whole field of surviving early Arabic and Persian theoretical works is well documented and, no doubt, thoroughly analysed by many researchers over the years. Reading and comprehending the published works and translations of translations is indeed heavy going for those of us who are not otherwise 'immersed' in this specialised field of interest. Hopefully there may be some 'easy to follow' guides giving a general, less technical overview, for the uninitiated. One readily available summary (although still pretty technical) can be found in chapter XIV, on the 'Arabic and Persian Musical System' of the publication "On the Sensations of Tone" by Hermann Helmholz (with extensive additional notes by the translator Alexander J. Ellis). This work is available in paperback edition from Dover Publications, New York.

Farmer quotes the instructions of Al-Masudi (died 957) who directs that the fret next to the nut be placed on the fingerboard a distance of 1/9th of the string length from the nut and that the fret nearest the bridge be placed at 1/4 of the string length from the nut - which is the 4th finger fret given by Ibn Sina.
Looking at the translation of the Kitab al-shifa it is explained that the first finger (sabbaba) fret is given by the distance 1/9 of the string length from the nut - confirming the Al-masudi directions. Ibn Sina then goes on to give the position of the third finger fret from the first fret which is 1/9 the distance from the first fret to bridge. Taking 1/8 of the distance from the fourth finger fret to the bridge gives the position of "The Old Persian 2nd finger fret" (measured from the 4th fret towards the nut). He then goes on further to describe several intermediate fret placements.
What is interesting is that when the above fret positions are laid out according to the proportions given on on the engraving of the oud they conform pretty closely with the equal semitone fretting system used today in Western music. In other words the first finger fret coincides with fret 2 Western shown in my previous posting, the Old Persian 2nd finger fret coincides with fret 3 Western, the third finger fret with fret 4 Western, and the 4th finger fret with fret 5 Western.

As there may be several intermediate frets in the various Arabic/Persian systems (for example between the nut and first finger fret) it is quite likely that the 4th finger fret could be designated as fret 9 in some cases. However, as I understand it (but I cannot find the appropriate reference at the moment) oud players did not necessarily use or instal all of the frets dictated by the theorists - so in practice an oud might only be fitted with (say) 7 frets, with the fourth finger fret being the the last or seventh fret?

This may mean that the fret positions shown in the oud engraving are not accurate as is the rest of the engraving geometry but simply confirm that frets were fitted to the oud - their exact placement being given elsewhere in the original manuscript.?

jdowning - 6-30-2008 at 06:22 AM

I should add the obvious comment that the oud is would likely have been played fretless beyond the last (4th finger) fret position. Lutes in Europe were not generally fitted with frets above the last tied fret
(number 8) on the fingerboard yet were frequently played unfretted up to position 12 on the sound board by expert players. So both instruments might be considered as only partly fretted.

jdowning - 7-1-2008 at 12:03 PM

Is the script in the image of the oud clear enough to be translated into English. I assume that the script written above the nut and bridge means "nut" and "bridge" but what does the script over the strings mean? This might possibly help towards eventually identifying the original source document?

jdowning - 7-16-2008 at 12:55 PM

My next project will be to construct an oud based upon this engraving as well as other historical evidence presented in this forum. As the oud is fretted, I would be comfortable playing it as a lutenist and would also be able to experiment with the fret positions in order to play it as an early oud (with help from my friends on the forum!).
My question is - should I construct the prototype with just two sound-holes - in accordance with the engraving - or with three sound-holes , as is the modern norm? Are there any early manuscript illuminations, paintings or engravings that show ouds with only two small sound-holes - or is this engraving just some historical anomaly?

Title

spyrosc - 7-16-2008 at 03:12 PM

I wonder if the word that ALAMI indicated as ...?..Al Oud on the title above the picture maybe:

DAFR AL OUD perhaps meaning how the oud is tied (intertwined? meaning the strings?).

See also the sideways picture.

Also I wonder if the word above the "nut" is ANF perhaps meaning the "nose" or the "ridge" of the oud.

Spyros C.

jdowning - 7-16-2008 at 03:49 PM

Thanks for your helpful comments and observations, spyrosc.
Unfortunately, I am not able to read and translate the text (is it Arabic or Persian?).
If the meaning refers to how the oud is tied (ambiguous), I would tend to take this to mean that it is the frets that are tied, not the strings? - but, obviously, I can not know for sure.
I do know that "anf" translates as "nut" (according to Dr. Farmer and other Western scholars).
I still find it strange, however, that Farmer does not reference this engraving in his paper setting out to prove that early ouds were fretted - what better proof would he need?! So he may not have come across the print in his research which referenced many primary source documents?

jdowning - 7-28-2008 at 11:59 AM

Here is an image of a miniature representing an
oud (?) with a 'sickle' shaped pegbox. The diamond shaped flat plate at the terminal end of the pegbox seems to 'stick out at the back' which might explain the peculiar pegbox 'finial' so quaintly represented in the print of the oud?
Does anyone know the source of the miniature and its date? Persian perhaps?

Peyman - 7-28-2008 at 12:32 PM

It's actually Ottoman. Here is a picture of a kopuz (or "Rood") player in the same style:

ALAMI - 7-28-2008 at 01:07 PM

Here is another miniature with a peculiar pegbox shape, what is also interesting is that the face has no central large hole, it looks like having 2 small holes on the sides and one near the neck, or may be this one is an inlay, I could only identify the words "dastan" and "Sfendiar". But like in many miniatures, the painting could be more recent and not related to the manuscript (we can see a line of script covered by the drawing),
What do you think Peyman ?

Peyman - 7-28-2008 at 03:14 PM

Nice find Alami. The illustration is Persian (the Shahnameh story of Esfandiar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esfandiar). It's a poem so there isn't any technical info on the oud. "Daastaan" means story and "dastaan" means frets. That might be a little confusing.

theodoropoulos - 3-7-2009 at 05:38 AM

:applause:

excellent work

Anija - 11-9-2009 at 02:59 PM

Hello John- I just came across your woodcut in Musikgeschichte in Bildern, Islam, Bd. III, Lieferung 2, ed. Henry George Farmer. It is not from page 81 of the book as suggested above- in fact it is example #81 on page 97.
Here is the text regarding the diagram:
"Die Abbildung der Laute (Abb. 81) wurde dem Kitab al-adwar des Safi al-Din 'Abd al-Mu'min (gest. 1294) nach einer Handschrift der Bodleian Library Ox, datiert 1333-1334, entnommen. Dieses Instrument weist fu:nf Doppelsaiten auf, die in Quarten gestimmt sind. Die Absta:nde der sieben Bu:nde (dasa|ti|n) ergeben eine Tonfolge con limma, limma, comma u:ber zwei Oktaven und einen Halbton hinweg." (p.96)

There is a fantastic depiction in this volume (p. 71) of an oud in an Egyptian miniature. I'll scan it up- the 'ud has an interestingly shaped pegbox!

jdowning - 11-10-2009 at 12:37 PM

Thanks Anija - this then supports earlier information about the engraving appearing in an early 14th C. manuscript copy of Kitab al-Adwar. Is there any reference in the text to the Bodleian Library shelf mark to confirm the identity of this copy?

(The German text also confirms that the oud (as described by Safi al-Din) has five double courses tuned a fourth apart fitted with seven frets covering a range of two octaves and a semitone).

Any information in the iconography concerning early oud peg box shapes would be of interest.

Anija - 11-10-2009 at 04:43 PM

Hello John- yes, sorry for not including a translation... my german is enough for comprehension, but I don't have the confidence to post up my english version

I will email you the scans, actually, since the text makes them quite extensive. Then you can post up whatever segments you would like to include in the forum. Unfortunately I do not have a scanner at home! I will try to get these to you in the next couple of days.

jdowning - 11-11-2009 at 04:54 AM

Thanks Anija - Looking forward to reviewing the scans.
If there is no footnote in the text identifying the manuscript copy in the Bodleian then I shall contact the library direct for that information. At least we now have a location for the manuscript version in question. It will be good to be able to positively confirm that the oud engraving does indeed come from a copy of the Kitab al-Adwar.

My previous limited grasp of German is now almost forgotten but I work on the principle that there are many forum members fluent in both German and English who will be kind enough to correct any gross flaws in my translation attempts.

Aymara - 11-11-2009 at 02:52 PM

Hi everybody!

Quote: Originally posted by Anija

yes, sorry for not including a translation...

... just wait a moment, Chris will do it

"The image of the lute (fig. 81) was taken from the Kitab al-adwar of Safi al-Din 'Abd al-Mu'min (died 1294) based on (or do they mean "regarding to") a handwriting of the Bodleian Library Ox, dated 1333-1334. This instrument has five courses tuned in perfect fourths. The intervals of the seven frets (dasa|ti|n) form a tone sequence from limma, limma, comma over two octaves and a half tone."

jdowning - 11-11-2009 at 03:00 PM

Many thanks for your translation Chris - appreciate it.

Aymara - 11-11-2009 at 03:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

... appreciate it.

No problem, J. ... and I appreciate your efforts regarding the history of the oud.

Nice to know now, that the courses were tuned E-A-d-g ... that supports the theory, that the oud is the "grandfather" of the guitar.

jdowning - 11-15-2009 at 06:23 AM

The early 14th C Safi al-Din manuscript copy - topic of this thread - refers to a 5 course instrument with all of the courses tuned a fourth apart.

What I have suggested is that the early Spanish four course guitar tuning (developed from the 16th C Spanish vihuela) may have originally been derived from an alternative ("non-traditional") tuning proposed by Avicenna (Ibn Sina) in the 11th C in an effort to design a more perfect fretting system for the 5 course oud. Here the courses are tuned (from the bass) a 4th, 4th, 3rd, 4th apart.
Of course, the actual pitch of the strings will depend upon the size (string length) of an instrument and the 'pitch standard' chosen.

For more information see my posting of 10-18-2009 in "Old Oud - New project" on the Oud Project forum.

Aymara - 11-15-2009 at 10:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

For more information see my posting of 10-18-2009 in "Old Oud - New project" on the Oud Project forum.

Yep, I'll give it a second look ... I vaguely remember, that your findings were different.

Anija - 11-15-2009 at 04:15 PM

Hi Chris... thanks for the translation!! note though, there is a typo, i'm sure you noticed... "von", not "con".

By the way, Farmer does sort of mention this woodcut in 'Was the Arabian and Persian Lute Fretted?'- very passingly, of course, and only in his section on how strings must not have been in double courses. odd. Gotta love Farmer though.

I keep reading a mis-information/contradiction in so many sources on early ouds. i.e/ that Al-Farabi was the first to outline a system of fretting for a five-course instrument. However, I was reading Al-Kindi's Muʾallafāt al-Kindī al-mūsīqīyah with a friend the other night, which at the beginning clearly describes four-frets + five-courses.
Similarly, I remember reading George Sawa saying that Al-Farabi increased instrument's range to 2 octaves. However, Al-Kindi describes at GREAT length (haha) the two octave range of his oud.

Am I confusing something here? It seems like Farabi's "4 + optional 6" fretting system would not be so different from the 1333 woodcut. How are the two systems fundamentally different, if at all? Why are the 7 frets depicted equally spaced apart?

jdowning - 11-15-2009 at 05:42 PM

I don't think that the fret spacing depicted on the oud engraving is intended to be accurate only representational - it is the number of frets that would appear to be important - like the pegbox and the correctly depicted number of pegs.

Early lute players extended the range of their instruments well beyond the 8 tied fret limit on the fingerboard (up to fretless position 12 on the sound board).
I imagine that early oud players did the same for their fretted instruments - leading eventually to total abandonment of frets on the oud for performers (but not the theoreticians).

Farmer summarises the history of the musical scale in the Near and Middle East (which he describes as 'full of perplexities'!) - including the scale of Al-Farabi - in his article "The Lute Scale of Avicenna". However, he does not go beyond Ibn Sina's improved fretting sytem leaving us all in suspense by concluding that "it was not until the time of Safi al-Din .... that an absolutely perfect scale was evolved"!

Anija - 11-15-2009 at 07:04 PM

Any further leads for the approx. dates of the Ottoman sickle-shaped pegboxes?

Aymara - 11-16-2009 at 02:31 AM

Hi again!

Quote: Originally posted by Anija

note though, there is a typo, i'm sure you noticed... "von", not "con".

Oops, I missed that and corrected my translation accordingly.

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

... leading eventually to total abandonment of frets on the oud for performers (but not the theoreticians) ...

Interesting thesis.

jdowning - 11-16-2009 at 11:51 AM

Thesis? Not according to Farmer's analysis in his research paper "Was the Arabian and Persian Lute Fretted" in trying to explain why there is not one example of a fretted lute depicted in the iconography from the year 1300 onwards (and so was obviously unaware of the existence of the oud engraving, subject of this thread).
His conclusion was that use of frets had already fallen into general disuse by the 14th C although the authors of the surviving theoretical works such as Quth al-Din al- Shirazi (early 14th C), Muhammad al-Amuli (14thC) and Ibn Ghaild (early 15th C) all continue to mention frets.
So, of course does, Safi al-Din who died at the end of the 13th C.

Farmer scorns researcher Baron Carra de Vaux for daring to suggest that Safi al-Din's oud had 5 double courses based on a fretting tablature that appears in a single example of a manuscript copy of Safi al-Din's other great work the "Risalat al-sharafiyya" where double lines had been drawn by the copyist to depict the strings. Clearly, Farmer might have been persuaded otherwise if he had been aware of the oud engraving - and he cannot have overlooked it as he examined seven copies of both books without finding another example of the double lined tablature (or the oud engraving).

The oud engraving in the Kitab al-Adwar may, therefore, have been a unique addition by the early 14th C copyist of the manuscript.

Aymara - 11-16-2009 at 12:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

Thesis?

Yes, regarding the question WHY the oud became unfretted and not WHEN.

Did Farmer write about the WHY too?

jdowning - 11-16-2009 at 01:31 PM

I don't know that Farmer was interested or clever enough to speculated on WHY - he just accepted the historical fact.

What is your thesis on the WHY of the general obsolescence, historically, of oud frets Aymara?

Aymara - 11-16-2009 at 02:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

What is your thesis on the WHY of the general obsolescence, historically, of oud frets Aymara?

If I understood it correctly, the fretted oud had only a few frets (not the whole fingerboard) and was fretless below, so that it might be possible, that some virtuosos of these days used this fretless area too?

Maybe a famous oudist of these days tried playing a fretless oud, while exchanging the frets, which he might have done by himself, because they were made of gut. Maybe he liked it that much, that he furthermore only played fretless and made this fretless custom oud famous too? So that more and more people tried it too, just to find out, that it has big advantages.

If it happened that way, it's maybe possible to find hints who these first fretless players were, though I don't expect this research to be easy.

But who knows, maybe I'm totally wrong.

jdowning - 11-26-2009 at 01:39 PM

The attached detail of a pre-14th C miniature painting is an example of the two sound hole oud design (thanks Anija).
Note the third small sound hole or 'window' (fenestre) sometimes seen in the European iconography depicting oud/lute-like instruments.
Also note the six point star design of the rosettes, the edge banding of sound board, fingerboard and pegbox, and the enigmatic pegbox shape - straight sided except for the abrupt curve at the end finishing with the 'cloven' peg box finial seen in profile view.
Note also the absence of a mizrab or risha. The oud player appears to be using thumb and forefinger to pluck the strings - like a 16th C lute player would.

This image shows some evidence of tampering with the original - particularly in the depiction of the number of strings. Some of the strings - still faintly visible - appear to have been erased. Why?

Aymara - 11-27-2009 at 06:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

Note also the absence of a mizrab or risha.

Very interesting ... makes me curious about the origin (when and where) of this image.

Quote:

Some of the strings - still faintly visible - appear to have been erased. Why?

Maybe they weren't erased, but painted this way, so that the soundholes become better visable?

jdowning - 11-27-2009 at 07:46 AM

I shall ask Anija to provide the correct answer concerning the strings depicted in this miniature painting - time permitting.

According to Dr Rahab Saoud "The Arab Contribution to Music of the Western World" the use of first finger and thumb to strike the strings or with the sequence thumb, first finger and thumb again - a technique known as "Jass" - was described in the 10th C by Al-Khawarzimi in his "Mafatih al-Ulum". Dr Saoud uses this and other related early references of that period in time to support the argument of Muslim influence on the almost coincidental 'discovery' of the organum (earliest form of polyphony) in Europe.

Dr G.H. Farmer also writes that Ibn Sina (11th C) unmistakably describes the performance of the simultaneous consonance of the fourth, fifth and octave in the practical part of his treatise.

This first finger/thumb (either " thumb under" or "thumb out") technique was prevalent among lutenists during the 16th/17th C in Europe with the switch from plectrum to plucking with fingers generally assumed to have occured around the end of the 15th C - or did it?

Aymara - 11-27-2009 at 09:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

This first finger/thumb (either " thumb under" or "thumb out") technique was prevalent among lutenists during the 16th/17th C in Europe with the switch from plectrum to plucking with fingers generally assumed to have occured around the end of the 15th C - or did it?

Regarding the Europian lute the german Wikipedia explains, that the index-finger/thumb technique came up around 1500 for melody oriented playing, while the middle and ring finger were used too to play chords. The finger's angle was nearly parallel to the strings, which changed to a nearly 90° angle in late Renaissance and early Baroque to better suit the bass lines in compositions of that era.

jdowning - 11-27-2009 at 10:01 AM

Yes - well understood techniques still practiced today by those of us who play the 'Renaissance' lute and other plucked instruments of that era and who have long since been 'weaned' away from the classical guitarist right hand technique - nails and all!

Baroque lutes as well as large extended neck lutes (arch lutes etc.) are played by extending the thumb - rather like classical guitar player - in order to reach the bass strings beyond those stopped on the fingerboard. These lutes can have up to 14 courses - quite a handful!

What is the evidence in support of German Wikipedia's claim that the switch from plectrum to finger plucking occurred around 1500? Speculation perhaps?

Aymara - 11-27-2009 at 10:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

What is the evidence in support of German Wikipedia's claim that the switch from plectrum to finger plucking occurred around 1500?

There's no footnote, just a source list below the complete article, but HERE I found a userpage on a server of the University Berlin, which is based on:
Ermanno Briner: Reclams Musikinstrumentenfuehrer, Stuttgart: Philipp Reclam jun. 1998, 272-286.

This article dates the upcoming fingerpicking technique to the early 16th C too ... parallel to the introduction of frets and increasing prominence of polyphony. Regarding a Venice treatise the plectrum is still used around 1550, but only seldom.

But further info about this treatise is missing.

jdowning - 11-27-2009 at 12:50 PM

Frets on the oud were introduced much earlier than the early 16th C - witness the subject of this thread. So, if the European lute was a direct development of the oud then it would likely have come with frets as well.

If oud players were already 'into' polyphony by the 11th C (using their fretted ouds) it would be of interest to know when the Europeans adopted the same technique for their musical preferences. I doubt if anyone knows for sure but it is likely to be much earlier than the beginning of the 16th C.
Conversely, it would be of interest to know when the oudists finally abandoned their polyphonic interests to focus only on the monophonic - but I doubt if anyone knows that for sure either.

The only certainty, as far as the lute is concerned - evidenced by the earliest surviving printed lute tablatures appearing during the second decade of the 16th C - is that the finger picking style was in use at that time. This does not mean, of course, that finger picking arrived coincidently with the invention of lute tablature at the beginning of the 16th C.

Sazi - 11-27-2009 at 02:59 PM

Pardon the interruption, but I just noticed in that miniature, it is a floating bridge oud!

jdowning - 11-27-2009 at 03:18 PM

Yet none of the strings run over the bridge! Curiouser and curiouser!
(however, is not the floating bridge oud a modern invention dating back to the 1950's with no earlier historical pedigree?)

Nevertheless, all the more reason to find an original 'unimproved' copy of the miniature.

Aymara - 11-28-2009 at 01:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

So, if the European lute was a direct development of the oud then it would likely have come with frets as well.

That's why I would expect the Europian lute to never have been fretless. Or did it become fretless parallel to the oud and refretted in the 16th C?

But regarding the lute and early European music history we have a major problem: especially in the middle ages clergy were nearly the only people, who were able to write and most music was considered devil's handiwork. So especially documentation about music started late in Europe and I expect a lot of early documentation to be falsified.

Quote:

If oud players were already 'into' polyphony by the 11th C (using their fretted ouds) it would be of interest to know when the Europeans adopted the same technique for their musical preferences.

I also bet it started earlier as is documented. Clergy censorship is very likely. I think besides the devil's handiwork problem, they also weren't happy about muslim's influence on European culture. I wish, what happened in Toledo, that Jeweish, Christian and Muslim scientists were working peacefully together, would have become a positive example for whole Europe.

Quote:

Conversely, it would be of interest to know when the oudists finally abandoned their polyphonic interests to focus only on the monophonic - but I doubt if anyone knows that for sure either.

Yes, that's an interesting topic too.

Quote:

This does not mean, of course, that finger picking arrived coincidently with the invention of lute tablature at the beginning of the 16th C.

Yes, because of the mentioned documentation problem. Maybe there are better chances to find muslim based documentation of that time?

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

..., it is a floating bridge oud!

Yes, it seems so, because it would make not much sense, when the strings are below this "bridge" ... I expect this to be a painting error.

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

..., is not the floating bridge oud a modern invention dating back to the 1950's with no earlier historical pedigree?

Maybe the floating bridge concept is much older and we found one of the first documentations here? Maybe the modern floating bridge is just a reintroduction?

jdowning - 11-28-2009 at 04:16 AM

Lots of ifs, buts and maybes!!

Aymara - 11-28-2009 at 06:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

Lots of ifs, buts and maybes!!

Shure ... and it will be a lot of work to find evidences or something, that disproves this theories.

jdowning - 11-28-2009 at 11:26 AM

That's the problem with speculating but I wish you luck in your quest for evidence Aymara.
As theories about the history of floating bridge ouds (beyond the certain knowledge that they are a modern invention) are way off topic, the results of your research should be posted as a new and separate topic on the forum. I have no doubt that the subject matter will be of interest to many members.

However, before pinning too much faith in the miniature painting as providing proof of an early floating bridge oud, be aware that the example of the image as posted is said to have been altered from its original state in fairly recent times (hopefully a photographic image was modified and not the original!).

Although it can only be positively confirmed by examination of the unaltered original (or a high resolution photograph of the original), it is likely that the artist did not represent the strings (or frets if there were any) - not because of error or incompetent draughtsmanship (!) - but because he chose not to include that detail (often the case with these early miniature paintings apparently).
A close examination of the lines that are being taken to be 'strings' reveals that not only do they run under the bridge but also under the rosettes, fingerboard decoration and side banding. Further evidence that these lines are unlikely intended to represent 'strings' is that the peg box is devoid of pegs.
What is more likely is that the multitude of lines - some faintly visible extending outside the bridge - is intended by the artist to represent wood grain - important possibly because this is a representation of al-ud - an instrument with wooden and not a skin sound board.

The 'improvement' of the image can be seen in the five heavy red lines that ARE meant to represent strings - allegedly added by a certain modern researcher needing to illustrate an early oud with five single courses. (There may also be some erasure of the original lines to further 'clarify' things a bit?).

Of course, none of this affects the subject matter of this thread as the image of the miniature painting was only included as another example in the iconography of an oud with two large sound holes, six point star rosette pattern, sickle shaped peg box and with that enigmatic peg box terminal - no more, no less.

Sazi - 11-28-2009 at 05:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Yes, it seems so, because it would make not much sense, when the strings are below this "bridge" ... I expect this to be a painting error.

Maybe not...

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/files.php?pid=54341&aid=82...

This is a Syrian oud by Zaher Khalife, photo courtesy of Fadel.

Aymara - 11-29-2009 at 12:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

Maybe not...

Interesting, though this Khalife oud also has a floating bridge, but the strings don't go over it, but through it.

Regarding the painting I first thought, that it might be a bridge over the strings, with the purpuse to support the hand while finger picking ... remember, in early finger picking the fingers were parallel to the strings.

But if this bridge in the painting would be a "hand support", the heel of the hand would be placed above it and not behind it.

So I interpret this painting as a vague hint to an early floating bridge oud.

PS: Regarding to JDowning's hint, that the current floating bridge discussion is slightly off-topic and many people interested in this topic might not find it here, I started a NEW DISCUSSION about the history of the floating bridge.

PPS: I hope it is ok, that I posted the painting in the other thread? I pointed to this thread as the source.

jdowning - 11-29-2009 at 07:12 AM

No problem Aymara.

danyel - 3-15-2013 at 04:02 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

Here is an image of a miniature representing an
oud (?) with a 'sickle' shaped pegbox. The diamond shaped flat plate at the terminal end of the pegbox seems to 'stick out at the back' which might explain the peculiar pegbox 'finial' so quaintly represented in the print of the oud?
Does anyone know the source of the miniature and its date? Persian perhaps?

It is Ottoman, indeed, found in the Sûrnâme of Murad III, 1582, fol 19r.

danyel - 3-15-2013 at 04:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

Browsing through a few of my old files the other day I came across this woodcut of what appears at first sight to be a rather quaint depiction of an early oud. However, a preliminary analysis of the geometry of this illustration, assuming that it is not a rough drawing but an accurate and precise representation of an early oud, has revealed some interesting and close correlations with early lute design that will be posted later.

First of all does anyone know the original source document from which this illustration is taken and its date (14th C?). The wood cut is unfamiliar to me but may be well known to other forum members. Identification of the source should help confirm that the illustration is indeed that of an oud and not some other closely related instrument

It is not a woodcut nor an engraving. It is a drawing with qalam and ink. I have seen the microfilm of this manuscript and countless manuscripts like that. Though block printing was common in China since the Tang dynasty, the only block printing in the islamic world at that time (mid 14th C CE) I am aware of are amulets, maybe playing cards. Copyist was a profession, some scribes were specialized on scientific manuscripts with exact drawings. Many scribes were equipped with compass and ruler which were very common. No doubt the scribe here attempted to render the rough proportions as described in various other oud-manuals or chapters (like Kanz at-Tuhaf, but not in Urmanwî's works!) and he had obviously seen 'îdân (unlike the later scribes who copied the extant Kanz at-Tuhaf manuscripts), but this does not mean that this rough sketch would delineate the geometry of a period oud in a reliable way. The scribe was not in any way attached to the author (working 40 years after the latter' death) and Urmawî does not even touch upon oud geometry anywhere in his extant writings. Hence the drawing was meant to be a diagram in which to point out the names of strings and parts of the oud, even the number of silk threads used for the strings.

This illustration is valuable because it shows an oud with clearly attached neck (as opposed to the prevalent tear drop shape) and a nice musht (bridge) and two auyun (small roses).

cf. http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8488&pa...

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10010&p...

danyel - 3-15-2013 at 06:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning

Thesis? Not according to Farmer's analysis in his research paper "Was the Arabian and Persian Lute Fretted" in trying to explain why there is not one example of a fretted lute depicted in the iconography from the year 1300 onwards (and so was obviously unaware of the existence of the oud engraving, subject of this thread).
His conclusion was that use of frets had already fallen into general disuse by the 14th C although the authors of the surviving theoretical works such as Quth al-Din al- Shirazi (early 14th C), Muhammad al-Amuli (14thC) and Ibn Ghaild (early 15th C) all continue to mention frets.
So, of course does, Safi al-Din who died at the end of the 13th C.

Farmer scorns researcher Baron Carra de Vaux for daring to suggest that Safi al-Din's oud had 5 double courses based on a fretting tablature that appears in a single example of a manuscript copy of Safi al-Din's other great work the "Risalat al-sharafiyya" where double lines had been drawn by the copyist to depict the strings. Clearly, Farmer might have been persuaded otherwise if he had been aware of the oud engraving - and he cannot have overlooked it as he examined seven copies of both books without finding another example of the double lined tablature (or the oud engraving).

The oud engraving in the Kitab al-Adwar may, therefore, have been a unique addition by the early 14th C copyist of the manuscript.

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jdowning - 3-16-2013 at 11:27 AM

Thankyou danyel. This is rather an old thread my opening remarks being made in June 2008 so a lot of water has flown under the bridge since then with new information coming to light all of the time.
I have been aware for some time now of the source of the illustration being attached to a copy of the Kitab al- adwar in the Bodleian Library, Oxford Marsh 521 and that the illustration is a later addition but thanks for the confirmation.
Like you I have not examined the original illustration but if you say it was drawn by hand with pen and ink then I am fine with that.

That Urmawi does not describe the geometry of an oud is not relevant and he otherwise obviously had no hand at all in the drawing. The drawing does give the names of the strings etc and confirms that it is meant to represent an oud but it goes further than that. So for you to nickname my replica of the oud as 'Urmawi' might be misleading to some. Perhaps it should be identified as 'Bod. Marsh 521 Urmawi' or some such name - or simply a 14th C oud?

The profile of the sound board of the oud has been drawn with the aid of a compass to a specific geometry based upon a figure that is considered to have sacred significance by many early societies - not some random shape imagined by the scribe (although he did screw up a bit with the manipulation of his compass in the bottom left hand corner and unable to erase the error it survives to this day).

The geometry is known in Western culture as the 'Vesica Piscis' (fish bladder - sturgeon perhaps!!). It is formed by the intersection of two circles of equal radius with their centres on each circumference - see attached diagram.
In two dimensions it is said to represent the first stage (or sometimes step zero) of creation, the organic egg or cell - a simple circle (or a sphere in three dimensions). The second step represents the division of a fertilised cell/egg into two parts forming the 'vesica piscis'.
How the ancients were able to figure out organic cell division without the aid of a microscope is beyond me.

This procedure is then developed by the addition of more circles to eventually form the geometrical pattern of intersecting circles known as the 'Flower of Life' One of the earliest examples can be found engraved in stone at the temple of Osiris at Abydos, Egypt - dated to around 535 BC. Interestingly it is also the design of the rosette found on the early 19th C Brussels M.I.M. Egyptian oud #0164.

As shown in the attached sketch if a circle of the same diameter as the original 'egg/cell' circle is placed in the centre of the 'vesica piscis' then you have the form of the 'Urmawi' oud drawing (as well as the profile of the 15th C Arnault de Zwolle lute). This shape is later found in the 16th C described by Albrecht Dürer as an 'egg line' which is very close geometrically to an ellipse and found in lute geometry of the late 16th C.
If the geometry is represented in 3 dimensions and then 'cut in half' along the longitudinal axis then you have the shape of the oud bowl with its depth of half the width of the sound board.

More detailed discussion on this subject can be found here on pages 2 and 3.

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11186&p...

I have also attached a couple of images of leather covers from 15th C Ottoman/Persian/Syrian manuscripts that carry designs similar to a 'vesica piscis' for interest - although I have not tested the geometry to confirm if they are.

I am familiar with some of those nice miniature paintings that you have posted danyel. Could you also provide information about origin and date of those posted?
Farmer was also convinced that the early ouds were fretted yet declared that he had never seen a fretted oud depicted in the iconography - not even the 'Urmawi' drawing (he examined that manuscripts version among others). Perhaps he did not recognise any of these instruments as ouds? Strange?

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