Mike's Oud Forums

How to clean the soundboard?

katakofka - 6-29-2008 at 09:26 PM

Dear all,
I want to clean the face of an old instrument but I don't know how.The source of the dirt is mainly from the right arm while I am playing the instrument as shown in the photo below. What should I use to make the soundboard clear as it used to be?
Thanks for your suggestions

dubai244 - 6-29-2008 at 10:03 PM

Hi,

You have to get Block of wood, cubic retangular shape and cover it with sand paper and rab it on the sound board to remove the dust.

Thanks

DaveH - 6-30-2008 at 01:32 AM

...on the other hand I seem to remember reading somewhere that some luthiers will only ever plane the face, not sand it, as the dust clogs up the grain in the face and somehow inhibits the acoustic.

My own feeling would be, unless it's really dirty, to leave it well enough alone. Any old instrument is going to have a patina - surely that adds to its nobility?

On the other hand, the face of my lute was getting quite sad looking - mainly from the wood drying out, and a luthier friend gave it a coat of tung oil, which is very light and gave the face a very faint sheen. Now if sanding dust is going to get into the grain, surely you would think oil wouldn't be that great either, but he swore by it and it didn't seem to have any effect at all on the sound. If you were going to give a coat of tung oil, I wouldn't think there would be any harm in giving an extra rub around the areas of wear and I would imagine some of the staining would come off.

Hopefully some of the luthiers could comment on whether they think this is worth a shot or oud heresy.

katakofka - 6-30-2008 at 04:29 AM

thanks Dubai, thanks Dave !

SamirCanada - 6-30-2008 at 05:52 AM

Like Dave says old instruments have a patina that adds to their value. If you sand or plane it, you will have to do the entire face and possibly remove the pickguard for it to look new. Its quite complicated and you have to know how to do it. the other thing is that if it is indeed sweat from your arm that went in It could have gone trough the whole face and stained it deeper then you would want to go with a plane or sand paper.

Otherwise I have had succes in removing some the dirt with and standard pencil eraser. the big white kind are real good. It will remove a lot of the superficial dirt and grime.

DaveH - 6-30-2008 at 08:58 AM

...and if that's YOUR sweat, then it's even more part of the history of the instrument - all those long hours of practicing and all those long nights of jalsah...?

katakofka - 6-30-2008 at 11:37 AM

hmmmm dave...ur making thinking:rolleyes: but this buzuk has a great value to my heart. It belonged to Matar mhammad my spiritual music master. I had the chance to seeing him performing live in 1987. During the break I approached him and began asking him tones of questions regarding the bozok and I mentionned that I play bozok too. You won't imagine the happiness I lived when he said he owned it.
In my mind this instrument should be clean and pure forever similar to Matar Mhammad playing, pure and Magical. If you don't know Matar I'll post an audio tape for him. You'll see how magical was this person on the buzuk.

carpenter - 6-30-2008 at 12:05 PM

Put that sandpaper down, son, you're scaring me. I say, don't touch it with anything! If you want a shiny, new-looking instrument, buy one. This pretty thing has fought hard for the look it has and deserves a comfortable old age without undeserved abrasive attacks. History trumps looks.

Lose the sandpaper, put the oil on the kitchen cupboard doors.

jdowning - 6-30-2008 at 12:42 PM

I agree with carpenter and Samir - sanding is a severe and irreversible action that might very well affect the instrument acoustically by making the soundboard thinner in places where it is not supposed to be.
Samir's non destructive suggestion of using an eraser - if it works in reducing or minimising the staining - would be the way to go.
The soundboard should not be given a finish of any sort as it likely never had a finish originally. Adding a finish would again alter and make the instrument different from original. As DaveH suggests, the markings are what you would expect to find over time with an instrument with no soundboard finish - part of the instrument history - but a purely cosmetic concern (you either like it or you don't) unlikely to affect the sound of the instrument. Wearing long sleeved shirts while playing would also help minimise any future staining.
For information, the soundboards of surviving, centuries old, European lutes show an even colouration or patina on their soundboards - indicating that they may originally have been treated with some kind of thin, transparent finish or sealer. The battered, well played, old Egyptian lute that I have in my possession seems to have some kind of thin wax finish on the soundboard - although it appears as if there is no finish, like bare wood - and the soundboard does not have any localised staining of the kind that you describe.
Leave well alone and conserve the original state of the instrument as far as possible. If it 'aint broke don't fix it.

suz_i_dil - 6-30-2008 at 01:42 PM

Hello Katkofka
As you were saying, if one day you have the possibility to put record of Matar Mohammed on this forum that would be great.
I only saw one video of this great player without finding other records from him.
thank you

katakofka - 6-30-2008 at 04:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by suz_i_dil
Hello Katkofka
As you were saying, if one day you have the possibility to put record of Matar Mohammed on this forum that would be great.
I only saw one video of this great player without finding other records from him.
thank you

Here you go Suz

katakofka - 6-30-2008 at 05:00 PM

The first recording was live performance in 1972 in West Hall Beirut concert theatre. The following one is a studio recording.

katakofka - 7-1-2008 at 01:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jdowning

The soundboard should not be given a finish of any sort as it likely never had a finish originally. Adding a finish would again alter and make the instrument different from original. As DaveH suggests, the markings are what you would expect to find over time with an instrument with no soundboard finish - part of the instrument history - but a purely cosmetic concern (you either like it or you don't) unlikely to affect the sound of the instrument. Wearing long sleeved shirts while playing would also help minimise any future staining.
For information, the soundboards of surviving, centuries old, European lutes show an even colouration or patina on their soundboards - indicating that they may originally have been treated with some kind of thin, transparent finish or sealer. The battered, well played, old Egyptian lute that I have in my possession seems to have some kind of thin wax finish on the soundboard - although it appears as if there is no finish, like bare wood - and the soundboard does not have any localised staining of the kind that you describe.


guys:
1-what is "patina"???
2-Old Nahat oud have finished soundboard?

jdowning - 7-1-2008 at 03:41 AM

A patina (on woodwork) is the natural surface appearance after years of use and exposure to the environment - such as darkening of the wood due to exposure to light, polished smooth and worn areas, etc. - even a few dents and scratches here and there. All signs of age and authenticity in an antique.
Any idea about what the finish might be on the Nahat oud? Is the soundboard finish original or could it have been added later by others as an 'improvement'? Do all Nahat ouds have finished soundboards?

Sasha - 7-1-2008 at 01:03 PM

Here's the important question - what is more important:
How the instrument looks or how it sounds?

carpenter - 7-1-2008 at 06:25 PM

Here's an experiment - put on your favorite oud audio recording. Turn it up. How does the oud look?

I've got a quarrel with appearance when it compromises tone. Start sanding a soundboard to clean it, and there goes all the time, expertise, and fine judgment that the maker brought to it.

katakofka - 7-1-2008 at 06:47 PM

Capenter...don't you think if the soundboard is cleaned the sound might be better?
the dirt on the soundbaord does not inhibit the sound projection?? My gut feeling is yes.

carpenter - 7-1-2008 at 08:42 PM

I'd have to say "not much," but jdowning or DrOud would be the guys to ask for solid acoustical information - all I have is shade-tree theories.

The sound might be different, but better? And - gentle cleaning would be one thing, sanding not something I'd ever advocate.

"First, do no harm" would be something to keep in mind.

Dr. Oud - 7-4-2008 at 11:34 AM

DO NOT SAND OR PLANE OR SCRAPE THE SOUNDBOARD! You will certainly alter the sound and may damage the instrument requiring a new soundboard. I have replaced several soundboards "cleaned" by their uninformed owners. The sound of the aged wood is then lost and may never be recovered.You can use a fast drying solvent (alcohol, laquer thinner, MEK, etc) although I don't reccomend this either. The safest cleaner is a soft ereaser, but rubbed very lightly across the grain to avoid erasing the soft wood. - best to leave it. The instrument will have more value with the patina of age instead of a "clean" soundboard. Dirt does not inhibit the sound, but removing material from the face certainly does. The only finish used on the old ouds is an egg white wash, applies just to cover, then wiped clean to remove any excess.

katakofka - 7-4-2008 at 11:42 AM

Thanks Doc for your input.
Doc, what about the soundboard of old Nahaat Oud? Do they had finished soundboard?

katakofka - 7-4-2008 at 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Oud
The only finish used on the old ouds is an egg white wash, applies just to cover, then wiped clean to remove any excess.


Got it. Thanks

suz_i_dil - 3-13-2009 at 08:19 AM

About cleaning of the soundboard I have heard a few time ago ago about Wolfang Fruh in Paris, it seems he uses cotton he humidify with soapy water ( just humidify, in order not to drop mcuh water on the soundboard)...but I wasn't confirmed by himself, just someone else who told me.
And by the way...i have missed your answer in this thread. So being late but thank you for those records.

Tarbool59 - 6-8-2009 at 08:15 AM

Hi all,
after tested it, i do recommend the "danish oil" to protect unvarnished soundboard. I was a bit suspicious, but a long chat with Alexander Batov, a famous baroque guitar maker , convince me.
It is very easy to apply (i'm total woodworker newbie) and contrary to Shellac which adds mass (result in what Sacconni referred to as ossification of the wood) , certain hardness or stiffness, this oil is "non destructive" in term of sound :airguitar:. Plus the wood is looking great after that. Just apply 2-3 times and that 's it.:applause:

jdowning - 6-8-2009 at 03:22 PM

'Danish Oil' is a combination of linseed oil and an oil varnish - more readily absorbed into the wood than a pure oil varnish (that covers wood surfaces like a 'skin').

Surviving examples of lutes from the 16th and 17th C have soundboards that are not varnished in the ordinary sense yet have some kind of finish, for they are - after centuries of use - of a uniform, oxidised, brown patina with no signs of dirty patches and stains sometimes found in the unfinished sound boards of ouds.

Richard Hankey suggests egg white, as a clear protective sealer, was traditionally used for oud sound boards. This can be used alone or diluted with water. It dries to a slight gloss and forms an elastic waterproof film. However, the treated wood surface remains pale in colour and still can show accumulated dirt.

An alternative sound board finish for lutes and early guitars - proposed by Ian Harwood (FoMRHI Comm. 173, Jan 1979) - is to mix a whole egg (yolk and white) with boiled linseed oil and water.
The egg is broken into a glass jar and shaken until the white and yolk combine. An equal quantity of linseed oil is then added, thoroughly mixed by shaking. Then up to two equal measures of water are added followed by thorough shaking to combine the liquids.
The egg/ oil/ water emulsion will not keep for more than a few days so must be freshly made before each application. The freshness of the egg is important.

This finish has a yellowish, milky appearance when first applied. However, this clears with time to a uniform hard. brown, waterproof yet elastic film.

Drying of the finish is partly through evaporation of the water, oxidation of the oil, and chemical change in the egg - all helped by fresh air and sunlight.

rabab-lover - 3-21-2014 at 07:07 PM

I am horrified at most of the "solutions" offered here. I am late to this discussion, but if anyone looks up this topic in the future, the following will be helpful. I hope you are talking about a really cheap oud, if you follow any of the advice above! A general rule when you ask a question: if you want a good answer, ask someone who really knows, not people who think they know. Conservation of wood items has been practiced in a scholarly and professional manner by museum conservators for very many years, and they are your best source of info, because they get to see what happens to valuable and precious objects that are very old, and they are trained in chemistry, and materials used in fine instruments and art and so on.
They strongly suggest professional conservation cleaning substances like Groom Stick and Smoke Sponge, available on line. You do not rub much at all when you use these things, but press or stroke lightly, as the material lifts off dirt, so you do not damage wood fibers.
Now:
1 - Egg white undiluted with water has been for ages a traditional finish for bare wood, especially oud and lute faces. Egg white sizes the wood fibers, like starch, as it dries and hardens, but it is still water-permeable.
2 - ANYTHING with ANY amount of water included in it will soak thru' the eggwhite, even isopropyl alcohol. Use alcohol, and you may get some of the surface stuff off, but you are actually dissolving soil and soaking it deeper into the grain where nothing will ever get it out.
3 - Sandpaper and planes will only reduce and further damage the surface.
4 - Soap is worse than alcohol - it forms an emulsion with the natural oils in the wood, which eventually degrades the wood fibers. Long before the wood fibers disintegrate, you will notice a mysterious cloudiness wherever the soap made it thru' the finish. You may try to refinish it, thinking the lacquer got cloudy, and then you realize the cloudiness is deep in the wood itself.
5 - ANY kind of oil will eventually penetrate thru' a breathable lacquer finish, loosen glue, and cause discoloration (at the least) of the wood.
6 - Kneadable rubber erasers like the kind artists use are usually NOT pure rubber, and have petro-chemicals in them, and if you rub them onto bare wood, you are sending those chemicals into the wood, and you are leaving behind microscopic amounts of eraser that clog wood pores and reduce vibration.
The thing is, if you use the wrong technique or chemicals like soaps or oils or alcohol to clean your instrument, you may not see the harmful results for a while - but the damage is done, and cannot be undone.
To clean surfaces that are varnished or lacquered, the best thing you can use is a gloved hand with a section of FINE nylon stocking, and rub the dirt off lightly.
Last word - why and how is your oud getting dirty in the first place? Do you not wash your hands before you play? Do you not wipe the fingerboard and neck after you play, with a soft cloth? About the right forearm (if you are right-handed), it is better to play with a long-sleeve shirt and only the cuff rolled back so the fabric protects the edge of the oud ... or get a sock and cut off one end and wear it on your arm to protect the oud while you play: you will see women who play the harp wear something like that. A good instrument is a friend for life. - Daniel O'Donnell in Portland Oregon

rabab-lover - 3-21-2014 at 07:28 PM

Well, ooops. The two images in my previous post are of Ilyas Cakan, an oud builder in Izmir, and they were meant for another post. While I am here, I should observe, the original question about how to clean an oud soundboard wandered in several directions ... two separate and very different topics were mixed in: #1 where to find recordings by Matar Muhammad (have you heard the UNESCO anthology LP by the way?), and #2 what kinds of original finishes can be applied before the instrument is handled and perhaps soiled. Best wishes to all. - Daniel

hussamd - 3-22-2014 at 05:17 AM

If the discoloration is bothering you, rub your sweat on the rest of the face to get it uniform.

JUST KIDDING...:D

I have seen Simon Shaheen with a cloth napkin where his arm rests on the face presumably to protect the wood. Wear long sleeves and wash your hands before playing. It may be late at this point but like others have said just ignore it and focus on the sound. It is part of the character of the instrument.

Dr. Oud - 3-22-2014 at 07:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by katakofka  
Thanks Doc for your input.
Doc, what about the soundboard of old Nahaat Oud? Do they had finished soundboard?

I have never seen a finish on any old oud, (30 years or older). It seems to be a characteristic of modern oud makers. I don't know how to test the wood for any other treatment, but definitely there was not any finish on any Nahhat oud I've ever seen. I'm guessing a test using material analysis methods might reveal some information. Anyone got access to an Electron Microprobe (EMP); Energy Dispersive X-ray (EDX); Wavelength Dispersive X-ray (WDX); or a X-ray Fluorescence (XRF)?