Mike's Oud Forums

Turkish time signatures

Jason - 7-1-2008 at 09:42 PM

I've been looking through some Turkish pieces and have noticed odd time signatures like 28/4, 32/4, etc.

Usually it works out that the 28 quarter notes occur every 6 written measures. So you have a phrase that works out to each measure containing 6/4 - 4/4 - 4/4 - 6/4 - 4/4 - 4/4 for a total of 28 quarter notes.

It's usually pretty simple to figure out how to phrase things but I just would like to know the theory behind writing the time this way. Is there a certain rule as to when to use a compound signature? Is it something still common today?

I've noticed a lot of pieces have the time written more in line with what would be expected of western music.

Brian Prunka - 7-2-2008 at 05:48 AM

I think it has to do with the rhythmic cycle the percussion would play, but I bet Adam Good or Mavrothis can give you a more complete answer.
The same thing happens in some old Arabic Muwashshahat, with rhythmic cycles like 32/4 and 128/4 . . . you could write it more simply, but then it wouldn't reflect the unique relationship to the underlying rhythmic pattern.

Incidentally, these aren't compound time signatures, they are simple time signatures, since the bottom number denotes the actual beat and not a subdivision (as in 6/8,which is compound).

katakofka - 7-2-2008 at 05:50 AM

Jason
I am not familiar enough with Turkish notation but I had hard time understanding the "quarter notes" ur mentionning. How are you subdividing 28/4 into 6/4 - 4/4 - 4/4 - 6/4 - 4/4 - 4/4? If it's 6/4 you have on the signature 6/4, or 4/4, with 6 or 4 "noir" in each measure respectively. When you have 28/4 it means that you have 28 "noir" in each measure. Can you upload a picture of the notation ? it would be easier to understand.
Brian was writting in the same time as I:) yep, the rythm won't be the same if it's 4/4 or 28/4. Totally different rythm concept.

adamgood - 7-2-2008 at 06:10 AM

for the 28/4 rhythm you've come across, I'm sure it's the usul called Devri Kebir.

if you get a chance to hear the usul played at the same time as the melody of say, Segah Pesrev by Yusuf Pasa you'll be amazed at how it all lines up. The phrases in the usul, the rhythms, etc. are built into the melody. Of course it's hard to find recordings of this so the best thing to do is record the usul, loop it and play along with it.

like you say, devri kebir is grouped in (6 + 4 + 4) + (6 + 4 + 4)
but when I hear it, i don't hear these groupings. It baffles me and I need someone who really understands it to show it to me. I love it though. I just wish i understood some theory behind the usuls and I can't read Turkish :(

Maybe there's noting really to understand, it is what it is?

Jason - 7-10-2008 at 02:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by adamgood
like you say, devri kebir is grouped in (6 + 4 + 4) + (6 + 4 + 4)
but when I hear it, i don't hear these groupings. It baffles me and I need someone who really understands it to show it to me. I love it though. I just wish i understood some theory behind the usuls and I can't read Turkish :(

Maybe there's noting really to understand, it is what it is?


That's what I thought. I think looping it would be a great idea when a recording isn't available.

I was just browsing the transcriptions on your page and came across a few like that. Without hearing them or trying to play them you can imagine my confusion. I kind of figured it was grouped in a way to convey the melody more clearly.

Jason - 7-10-2008 at 02:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by katakofka
Jason
I am not familiar enough with Turkish notation but I had hard time understanding the "quarter notes" ur mentionning. How are you subdividing 28/4 into 6/4 - 4/4 - 4/4 - 6/4 - 4/4 - 4/4? If it's 6/4 you have on the signature 6/4, or 4/4, with 6 or 4 "noir" in each measure respectively.


The bars work out to be two groups of 6/4 - 4/4 - 4/4 which is a total of 28 quarter notes. Even though the music is written in this pattern it just given a generic 28/4 time signature at the beginning.

I think this also keeps the transcriber from having to write in so many signatures.

katakofka - 7-11-2008 at 07:50 AM

Got you ! Intially I said what the hell is he taking about as quarter notes for me means quarter tone, the half of a flat or # :D. Thanks for the info