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Sellers with a Good Reputation

Christian1095 - 9-21-2008 at 08:11 PM

Over the past few weeks, there have been a number of new ouds being offered for sale on this forum. To be perfectly honest, I'm a little worried about getting ripped off. When I purchased my first oud from a member of the board, I did a seach on his name just to get a feel for his reputation. It helped that he had about a million posts.

I'm putting this thread out there just to see if there is an appetite for keeping a list of people who sell ouds and have a good reputation.

Christian1095 - 9-21-2008 at 08:15 PM

I have bought an oud from SamirCanada - oud was well packed and arrived in good condition. It was sent from Canada to the US. I would buy another oud from Samir without question.

Palmyrami has had a poor reputation in the past. They made some changes to thier staffing and promised to do better going forward. I bought a $400 Sukar oud from them and it arrived safe and on time. "I" would feel confident buying another oud from them - but I would recommend that you read all the feedback about them to get a good feel for thier reputation.

nadir - 9-22-2008 at 05:34 AM

Viken Najarian and Faruk Turunz are also reputable manufacturers and sellers. Sandi (from Cankaya music) is also an additional person that would be reputable to buy from. Maurice Shehata also has a good reputation and comes with PERSONAL recommendations from Mike.

And let us not forget our other members, like Jameel Abraham!

corridoio - 9-22-2008 at 05:49 AM

look at this list with web links provided by Greg months ago
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6564#pid402...
note:
-Samir Azar website doesn't work now, we are waiting for news..
-Yaroub Fadel website has changed in http://www.yaroubfadhel.com
ale.

Brian Prunka - 9-22-2008 at 05:54 AM

Some other boards have policies in place to prevent abuse of "for sale" forums:
you have to have filled out your profile with your real name, etc. to post, or only people with at least 10 (non-spam) posts can put something for sale, etc.
I don't know if it's necessary at this point, but as the forum grows it might be something to consider (if Mike wants to/has time).
I feel the forum has been a great community, so I'd like to see it keep the relaxed attitude, but it's a drag when people try to scam here, or just post the same ad repeatedly.

SamirCanada - 9-22-2008 at 06:51 AM

I think that mikeouds.com should ban commercial sellers from opperating on the forrums. Like you says Brian its a dragg when the first post someone does is something like:
we build ouds, what do you think of our sound!???!!
its the best no!?
buy from us NOW!!

But then to make things worse... when no one responds they keep littering the forums with more of their threads.

I would like to commend Greg who acted well as a moderator for the site.
When someone is acting dishonestly they should be immediatly called out and dealt with.

The buy or sell ouds forum should be for members and members only.
preferably from participating members obviously.
Of course anyone who has been here for a few weeks will be able to recognize the difference between someone who is a contributing member and someone who is trying to shamelesly exploit a gap in the market by pretending to be oud experts while being totaly clueless about the instrument.

They are scum and Fugueses... we should get rid of them since they are a drag on the community and they have no place here.

I am starting to think we may be at the point that there should be a probation period where if you act dishonestly or are just there to scam/take advantage of the comunity then your toast no questions asked.

or even make new memberships invitation bassed only. but we may be punishing others for the actions of a few crooks.

This should be a forum for people of good character with genuine interest in the instrument and the music.

francis - 9-22-2008 at 07:05 AM

The good reputation of a seller means that it's not the first time he sells a oud on the forum.
May be a new seller would have to offer guaranties, more than a recognised one.
My last experience ( see " new ouds sellers " post ) tells that when a damage comes , then we can know the quality and the serious of the seller. I'm sure that most of recognised sellers on this forum are able to take the hand when there is a problem at the oud reception.
May be it would be a good deal to pay half price when order, second half after receive. So the risks wouldn't be only for the buyer. With this way , I would have lost 350$ instead of 700$, and the seller would take his responsability....

nadir - 9-22-2008 at 07:16 AM

Perhaps having a forum oriented buyer-seller rating would be beneficial? For example, a star rating system displayed regarding their buy/sell performance, like on amazon?

It could be the case that people would leave their old ID to come with a new one, but, the IP address can be blocked by either an admin or Mike.

nadir - 9-22-2008 at 07:21 AM

You know, maybe a POLL would be beneficial in this case. Everyone can see it, view the transaction, and then have a rating so that the people would see how worthy a seller would be. Furthermore, it might be beneficial to delete and/or move the older topics (deemed as junk) off of the current forum?

We cannot let con artists take over what Mike and the rest of the community have worked so hard to built protect!

nadir - 9-22-2008 at 07:49 AM

It is also a good indicator to see the percentage of posts made in the forum overall (for example, some members are certainly 100% in the Buy & Sell section).

SamirCanada - 9-22-2008 at 08:13 AM

I am not in favour of the rating system.

The forums are not a comercial hot spot to sell instruments.
Selling ouds here should be reserved for members who have some ouds to sell from time to time. selling and buying ouds isnt what mikeouds is about and that has to be clear.
its about a family, a comunity of genuinely passionate and honest people.

if somebody is proven to have scamed another member, then they would be banned untill the issue is resolved. this has happened in the past.
and it would be the last time anyone would buy something from them. Is it worth it really to pull off a one shot deal and get 1000$ from scamming someone.
Your reputation is ruined after this and the forum members/moderators would advise against anyone from buying from him ever again.

From reading the forums and getting involved in the comunity as a member you can tell who is here to stay and who is a scam artist. You can also ask the other members what they think of buying a oud from person x.
when a member got scamed out of money by another crooked member a few years back, the rest of the members stood up and gave that person money to try and compensate.

let the commercial sellers battle it out on Ebay and Amazon. Thats where they belong not here.

Monawar Al-Jabar - 9-22-2008 at 08:13 AM

The best thing is that we know who is the real i would recommend that the seller need show what type of oud he is selleing and some video clips and the Buyer would need to get some recommendation from the right people in this forum and as someone said pay have of the money and the rest when the oud arrive . Or the seller agree's to refund the money mineus the p+p this way the real selle won't have any problem with. :bounce:

Monawar Al-Jabar - 9-22-2008 at 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SamirCanada
I am not in favour of the rating system.

The forums are not a comercial hot spot to sell instruments.
Selling ouds here should be reserved for members who have some ouds to sell from time to time. selling and buying ouds isnt what mikeouds is about and that has to be clear.
its about a family, a comunity of genuinely passionate and honest people.

if somebody is proven to have scamed another member, then they would be banned untill the issue is resolved. this has happened in the past.
and it would be the last time anyone would buy something from them. Is it worth it really to pull off a one shot deal and get 1000$ from scamming someone.
Your reputation is ruined after this and the forum members/moderators would advise against anyone from buying from him ever again.

From reading the forums and getting involved in the comunity as a member you can tell who is here to stay and who is a scam artist. You can also ask the other members what they think of buying a oud from person x.
when a member got scamed out of money by another crooked member a few years back, the rest of the members stood up and gave that person money to try and compensate.

let the commercial sellers battle it out on Ebay and Amazon. Thats where they belong not here.

I agree with that :applause:

francis - 9-22-2008 at 08:24 AM

I agree entirely with Samir canada, also.
I think this topic is closed to the one I open a few days ago:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8118

francis - 9-22-2008 at 08:32 AM

......but now I'm still judge and jury, I don't forget this particular situation!

nadir - 9-22-2008 at 10:42 AM

After reading Samir's post, I remember how the forum used to be in the beginning. I agree with Samir and was simply trying out of frustration to bring justice to a member that was wronged.

SamirCanada - 9-22-2008 at 11:34 AM

your right to do this Nadir,
but now you remember what the forums used to be and I have to say I am nostalgic about that.

Ultimately the waste of space they create from the conflicts and stupid adds and all that is what kills people's enthousiasm.

Ultimately when and if you decide to buy from a fly by seller.
There is nothing we can do.

Anyways now something needs to be done to ban all comercial sellers who participate only by promoting sales and all that.
Any of the moderators ready to take it hand??

There should be a statement along the lines of:

Effective sept 22nd all commercialy interested oud resellers will no longer be permited to advertise on the forums. You are advised to conduct your sales outside of the forums on websites intended to do so. The use of the buy-sale forum in mikeouds.com is reserved for genuine honest and active members of mikeouds.com and is not to be used by a oud reseller solely interested in profits. failure to comply will see your posts deleeted and your account privileges revoked.
thank you.

this is nothing official just my 2$ as a member.

Mike,
Greg or Victor...
interested to take action on this?

GeorgeK - 9-22-2008 at 12:19 PM

The question Samir is how you would ban such an individual. These past few months has seen a few new members pop in just to make the sale and then quickly evaporate. For me personally, if I were to buy an Oud from a member I'd check out their number of posts...this would be their unofficial rating.

Further, while I whole-heartedly agree with the content and spirit of your proposal, I think back to when I first started as a forum member (not that long ago

) and I remember reading the disclaimer in the "buy sell section". It basically advocates some of the ideas that are brought up here, ie "obtain feedback from at least two other members
who have frequented these forums for long enough to be able to provide objective feedback...". In addition, also based on this Disclaimer, I'm not sure that Mike (or the other admins) want to get into the policing business as it requires a lot of work and is not so fun.

My $2 worth would be to leave things as is, and to remind the members from time to time to always get feedback before making a purchase.

DaveH - 9-22-2008 at 01:21 PM

Hey All

Lots of $2 worth contributed. It used to be 2c. That's the credit crunch for you. I'm going to throw in my $2 too and pretty soon we might just have enough to buy a bargain oud by a famous maker, cash upfront, amazing sound :rolleyes:

.

The first thing I'd say is that, thanks to the incredible knowledge and altruism of many of its members, this forum actually does a pretty good job of screening out the hoaxers. As far as I've seen, when dodgy posts come up, people are onto them like a flash, flagging up the risks and the fakes for the less experienced of us. Kudos to you :bowdown:

.

Second thing is, the reverse applies to the hoaxers themselves. Oudselling is not going to make anyone a millionaire. If you want to earn big bucks by cheating, join an investment bank (oh...oops

). Trying to sell a $50 oud for $500 is a pretty dumb wheeze, as wheezes go. I mean honestly, some of these recent scams look like they originated in Nigeria! In the oud world, if you stay honest and you have some talent, you might just scrape a decent living. So pretty much all the long-termers are genuinely passionate about what they do.

Now, I realise the temptation to say no to commercial sellers - the idea that someon might actually be taken in by one of these fools makes me really mad, and I respect Samir's nostalgia for the time when the forum was small enough to trust people more. But I also think this is now THE English language place on the internet for all things oud, and everyone knows this. That's a good thing, but it's bound to attract some chancers too. On the other hand, some of the commercial sellers who come on here contribute a lot, and I'm talking about makers AND intermediaries. If they do contribute their knowledge, i don't have a problem with them getting a little publicity out of the deal. As others have remarked, if you follow the forums for a little while, you get and idea for who knows what they're talking about, and if on that basis people go to a seller, I think that's a good thing. Sellers play an important role in keeping us abreast of new developments, technologies and innovations.

Secondly, administering some sort of screening system would almost certainly be an awful lot of work for the moderators and I don't think they have the time.

So while I think there might be an argument for banning sales by short-term members, I'm not sure how it would work. Overall, I think I favour individual responsibility and collective good advice. As someone pointed out, the disclaimer pretty much covers everything you need to be warned about. That, combined with the vigilance of the core membership is hard to beat. People are still going to get burned every once in a while, but that will happen anyway on ebay etc. Buying an oud over the internet means you can get some good deals but it's an inherently risky business and people undertaking it should have taken a conscious decision to accept that risk.

Sorry, I've gone on a bit and I'm not even on topic. Good idea to keep a list of trusted sellers.

Brian Prunka - 9-22-2008 at 01:37 PM

Like you, Samir, I remember how the forum used to be and miss it.
However, I do think that it is potentially valuable to everyone who is in the community to have people be able to buy & sell ouds. It helps everyone in the long run, and I don't see an easy way to ban "commercial" sellers only.
Faruk Turunz is a commercial seller, as was Haluk Eraydin. Yet they contributed a lot to the board and obviously have an interest in the oud above commerce.
Should they be prevented from selling ouds here? I don't think so, but part of that is that they are very restrained in their commercial activities on the board. It can be hard to find good or reasonably priced ouds, so it helps to be able to make deals here. The amount of interest this topic has generated seem to indicate that a lot of us feel the same way about the commercialization of the forums.

Some suggested rules:
1. you can only post specific ouds for sale, not general advertisements (no "hey look at our great ouds!"
2. That you can't repost the same instrument repeatedly (though maybe allow people to bump a post after a week or two)
3. that for sale posts must include an asking price; if you want bids, go to ebay
4. That the individual selling the oud must identify him/herself. (In their profile, including real name, location, contact info).
5. No links to one's own ebay ads (possibly a member with good standing could point out an ebay post that they think would be of general interest, or to ask others if they think it's worth purchasing)
6. At least 10 meaningful posts before one is allowed to post in the buy/sell section (this prevents people from simply registering a new name)
7. That buy/sell posters will be held to a stricter standard of propriety in the way they respond to questions/complaints about their products (e.g., no name-calling if someone says your fake sukar oud is fake).

All of these ideas are taken from similar forums for other instruments; I don't know much about running a forum, but I would think some of these could be automated and not require a lot from Mike and Greg. The rest could be implemented by the rest of us flagging messages/users that ignore the rules.

SamirCanada - 9-22-2008 at 01:53 PM

Brian thats a great step forward.
could we say that commercial resellers should be banned from posting. The ones that have nothing to do with the construction of the oud but just make a margin from exploiting their connections in the middle-east.
they are present on ebay so let them stay there.

Makers such as Faruk Turunz, Nazih Ghadban, Veysel, Samir Azar, Haluk Eraydin (rip) and company.
have helped develop the forums trough their posts and trough sharing their knowledge. They are very much contributing members of the boards like any other members. They are valuable members with a lot of knowledge and they do not shy from sharing it with us.

If you have ever noticed these are people that let their work speak for itself. Have you ever heard any of these respected luthiers slander another maker's work? NEVER thats why they are respected and considered to be the creme de la creme.

I firmly believe that by getting rid of resellers and commercial opportunists. We can have a trustful useful oud community again.

Jonathan - 9-22-2008 at 02:00 PM

OK, this isn't going to go over very well, but. . .
I think it's fine the way it is.

Mike's not taking any responsibility for any of the postings. By limiting the forum to only certain sellers, he would be essentially giving them a stamp of approval.
Let the buyer assume the responsibility, and do their homework.
For what it is worth, I have ordered ouds from the following four members of this board, and in each case, they exceeded my expectations.

Cengiz Sarikus (Veyselmuzik)
Dincer Dalkilic
Peter Kyvelos
Faruk Turunz.

SamirCanada - 9-22-2008 at 02:20 PM

Johnathan you give nice examples of people who are great makers and stand up honest members.

I can tell you something thats a problem is that the above people you mentioned very rarely advertised themselves as sellers.

Also the idea is for banning opportunist resellers the members you mentioned are all respected luthiers.

Take Veysel Music for example, at the beginning they where not sure what this forum was all about. But you can tell they understand now what this forum is about and they contribute by sharing pictures and knowledge of their ouds.

it is True, people should do their homework but then again when the information to warn them of a seller is buried 3 years ago, its hard for them.

when one of those resellers places a generic add like, we have the best ouds come by from us.
or even worst when they make believe like they know what they are talking about, then people get duped for the simple reason which is:
experienced members know better to even bother with them and just brush it off but no-one responds something like.
these are resellers they are ripping you off HARD and your better off getting a oud from a respected maker or a respected member.

you know why they dont respond anymore? Its because it has gotten to be a drag and people dont care to answer the same old question again and again. They are too many adds to many shady people that where accepted and tolerated and people dont look out for each other anymore.

Jonathan you remember how it was in the beginning and its definitely since we are allowing greedy people to do business here that its like this.

I am for Brian's idea.

Also proportionally the forum kept growing for years now and the number of moderators is no longer sufficient.
Oudman, (Victor) as been Awol for a bit perhaps he no longer has the time to get involved with the forums.
I think we could have another 3 moderators and it wouldn't be too too much.
Mike can chose them obviously at his discretion.

shareen - 9-22-2008 at 05:26 PM

Another 2cents. Being a relative newbe to Mike's Ouds, at face value, I tended to trust postings from sellers on this forum than say, E-bay. I see this forum as a place for experts and those of us who look to the experts on this forum to educate and mentor us in our magical oud journeys. I want this forum to remain a special place in cybespace where profit is not the motivation, but a genuine passion for the music and instrument. That being said, if a reputable builder or genuinely passionate collector like OudProff wants to sell on this form, then its a benefit to us all. I might be able to find some incredible instruments I'd never be able to find elsewhere. But when a commercial non-oud player, non musician seller describes an oud as "this took long time and lots of efforts to make", they do not belong here. I think there should be a guideline and screening process for sellers. What it should be, I' don't know, but I do know that I don't want the likes of Oud_Man or Palmyrami on this forum. They can stay on E-bay. We'll call them if we want them.

Jason - 9-22-2008 at 09:18 PM

I agree with Brian and Samir.

I don't think resellers should be allowed to post "their" ouds for sale and I don't think people should be able to create threads in the buy/sell forum until they have accumulated a certain number of posts. Like most others I do see luthiers in a different light than resellers... although Haluk is the only actual luthier I can remember who actively advertised his ouds on this site. Mike would occasionally give everyone heads up on Shehata ouds but it's been a long time since that happened.

In my opinion this site has always been, and should stay, about our love for the oud and not a way for businessmen to get free advertising.

One possible suggestion I will make is perhaps a sticky thread with a *listing* of resellers. This list would be maintained by a moderator and would simply have a name, url, and brief description of ouds offered. I suppose this could also list active luthiers with the same information. It would be nice to keep it a rather short list because so many luthier's internet presence seems to come and go.

nadir - 9-22-2008 at 10:03 PM

I believe that Brian has definitely pointed us in a better direction, further refinement of the regulations may very well decrease the negative activities in this forum.

MatthewW - 9-23-2008 at 12:52 AM

greetings all- this is a topic whose time seems to have come, as we see more and more fakes,scams, various problems and less honesty and integrity in general being shown by some people selling ouds.

my £2 worth of thoughts on this:
perhaps one more thing that we could consider doing to help protect ourselves and newcomers to this forum looking to buy a good oud is that when a member of the forum has had a bad experience or serious problem with any oud seller, he/she can list the name of the seller and the nature of the problem in a special place in the forum, sort like we have a special FAQs section.

If the seller makes good the problem then the name can be removed, but this way others can see who to avoid, what the problem(s) were and what to look out for.
Take the recent case of oud_man and the ongoing case that Francis is having at the at this very moment: he bought an oud from a new seller, it got damged in transit, the seller was supposed to have it insured for $700 and made all promises to Francis but so far not one penny has gone to francis for repairs. The name of the seller and the nature of the problem could be noted in the forum. If the seller makes good on the situation then it would be removed:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8118

Perhaps this idea can be taken up, looked into and improved upon by the administrators of this great website, along with the other ideas brought forward by others.
best wishes, MW

nadir - 9-23-2008 at 03:55 AM

That does not make any sense, let us also see what Francis has to say about this. It seems we have chased another false seller out of the forum as well.

To be honest all of these people can be caught, since they have made IDs on mikeouds.com there is an internet code that Mike gets and can send it to the authorities that can get a hold of them.

nadir - 9-23-2008 at 03:59 AM

Chris, this is a VERY good thread that you have started.

nadir - 9-23-2008 at 04:35 AM

What is your address in Switzerland and Germany?

francis - 9-23-2008 at 05:50 AM

I see above that Abdelaal Hassanin could change my oud, if he wants to be serious.
He told me , when I bought "my" Nahat copy oud , it was the last he has. Now another one comes in his home.
It's a curious decision that saying I don't post anymore ouds before the affair is over with the last post. When a problem appears, forget it ( don't resolve ) and go on giving ouds to sell in the forum.....
Abdelaal said the oud he sent me in the last days of august was insure for 700$, after he has tried to say in this forum that I broke my oud myself....
He never send me the paper which can prove the oud has been insured, may be there is no paper....
After the damage , I asked him for to options:
-first: a free exchange of the oud .
-second: money to cover the repair of the oud.

I never obtain satisfaction . He just answer that he send me the insurance money if the insurance believe me!!!

I don't know if speaking about Abdelaal is important now. I don't think he is able to take his responsabilities, sure he doesn't want.....He has my money, that's ok for him, he can go on selling ouds, and here, in this forum.....This fact doesn't let any doubt about his integrity and his motivations.....

That's a part of what I have to say about this , to give and answer to Nadir's post.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8118

Sorry, I know my english is poor, and may be it is not easy to understand why I try to say. It will be easy for me in french, but I think that a minority of people on this forum understand french.

francis - 9-23-2008 at 07:55 AM

Pictures of ouds for sale that Abdelaal post above in this topic have been removed.
Abdelaal himself, a moderator?

Christian1095 - 9-23-2008 at 08:38 AM

You know, it's like the forum has hit critical mass and now everybody and thier brother is coming out of the woodwork trying to make $$$ from our community.

For example, THIS was posted today. Now this guy may be on the up and up... but he's come onto the boards to sell ouds and gives NO information about who he is... He has no reputation here... On one hand, I say let the buyer beware, but on the other hand - in reading about what's happened to Francis and seeing the influx of oud sellers with 6 posts - I think it would be great if we could have some more structure in place to limit the exposure to this sort of thing.

When I bought an oud from SamirCanada... I figured I had some level of protection because if the deal had been shady, he had made over 1,500 posts -- so he obviously had an interest to maintain his repuation on the board - so there might be some consequence if he ran off with my $$$ in terms of his reputation here...

Reputation is what these guys do not have...

dubai244 - 9-23-2008 at 09:42 AM

Hi,

I totally agree with "Black List" idea or what ever you decide to call it. and to keep it simple, personally, i never buy oud from unknow person or maker. Since i joined this great forum, i never have any kind this of problems simply because i dont deal with unknow people and i do a very throu search about the maker or the seller then i decide if i want to order or to but the oud, most of the time i dont get enough informations so i dont buy or order at all.

Lately, i have seen so many new oud makers posting there products pictures in this forum. Personally, i believe it is very good because you can see the options availabe to you when you want to buy new oud and you can see what is the new in the market. Without these posts, i will never know that's there are new makers exist in this world. and from these posts, you might see new idea's, new oud decorations, new kind of woods that never been used before for oud ........etc.

Having saying that, I would never buy oud from these people simply because i dont know them and i have no idea who they are and no body is FORCING me to buy from them.

I have seen some posts from members talking about "insurance" that the maker or seller have to provide for the custemer. Lets be reliastic, These new makers, they barly make money, so i dont expect that these maker will give you any kind of insurance if the oud got damage. When i order some thing from them, i am totally responsible about my decision. So please dont plam others for your mistake.

Last thing, if you want good quality oud from good maker or seller, you have to pay the price, otherwise, if you are looking for cheap prices then you will end up with cheap people. (no offend to any body with respect)

Mike, please kindly add "Black list" section or what ever you want to call it, to this forum to avoid all this headache.

Thanks

Jonathan - 9-23-2008 at 10:06 AM

I think the Black List idea creates a whole new set of problems.
Look back on that list of 5 makers that Samir mentioned on page 1 of this post. I think that we would all agree that every one of those luthiers is top-notch.
Yet in previous years, at least 2 of them have had absolutely horrible things written about their instruments. I think that many of you remember at least one of these instances--the poster has been banned, as well as all of his aliases. The posts have probably all been taken down by now. Would these people have been put on the Black List?

You take a hell of a risk by buying an instrument by mail. Ask for references. Contact others who have bought instruments from them. I've done that, and I know that others have contacted me in the past about what my experiences have been with the luthiers.

Same thing with a "vintage" instrument. If you don't know the guy selling it, think twice. Three times. Then, if you still want it, think about it some more.

As for the hamburglu post--I really enjoyed seeing the inside of the guy's shop, and am glad that he posted. I have no idea who he is, and therefore, unless I could get a reference from somebody that I knew, probably wouldn't buy from him. But why should we ban him? He's done nothing wrong

Personal responsibility--that's the ticket.

DaveH - 9-23-2008 at 11:29 AM

I'm with Jonathan - we've had one example recently (oud_man) which has been pretty much black and white, but there are a lot of others that would be just too hard to call - with all due respect to Francis, his case is a tough one, and most of the really ugly incidents in the past have been over similar issues. I don't think it's fair on the moderators to expect them to act as judge and jury when people's reputations are at stake. Of course, if they want to take that on, fair enough. I like to see what people are offering and I don't think it's fair to tar everyone with the same brush that oud_man obviously deserves.

francis - 9-23-2008 at 12:26 PM

I agree with the personal responsability, but I don't use to consider all the people I don't know as possible dishonest people, not much as great people....
I'm not a very young man, I'm not a new musical player, except on the oud. It seems to me that personal responsability concern everyone in his acts....in our case, the buyer and the seller in the same degree....
Sorry, I don't use to live in a world in which everyone distrust everyone, with the exception of friends or recognised people....At first, I respect the guy who tells he is a seller as a seller, with the responsability closed to this job....
May be I'm wrong when doing like this, but the world I hope to meet is not organised around suspicion.
So, It can be said I'm not responsable when buying a oud to Abdelaal. At first, I'had good feedbacks about these ouds here in the forum and around. Second, the no-responsable people seems to be Abdelaal, no?
I didn't protect myself ( my money, that's different ....) against him, no confusion please.
This is my 2c contribution, after a empty 1000$ one, that's enough for me......ne tirez pas sur l'ambulance, les gars!
( a friend explains me today the meaning of 2$...2£..2 cents.....in french we say : une réflexion à 2 balles......)
Salut à tous,
Francis

SamirCanada - 9-23-2008 at 12:44 PM

its not about making a tough call or not.
its about not allowing random people to sell ouds here when the sole purpose of being here is to make $$$. If you dont have a minimum of posts and your not interested in contributing to the forum other then make making money of of it then you should come and take advantage of the comunity.
this is why.
1- it litters the forums with useless posts
2- there is no protection so its better off to stick to ebay
3- people interested in ouds monitor ebay anyways and so they will let eachother know of something interesting.

the issue is not against having them write and participate,
if they want to show pictures of their shops and if they want to contribute to discussions and if they want to defend their reputation their is nothing wrong with that.
what is a drag are the shameless addverts and the hord of resellers that are using the forum just cuz its there. They have no clue how the forum works, they post their junk in the wrong threads etc... I could go on and on.
Utimately, it is what is killing the forum spirit.
There is an ebay, an amazon or whatever else site you want to buy from where you get protection and ratings etc...

we can avoid this mess here and talk about ouds and music.

nadir - 9-23-2008 at 01:09 PM

Samir has it exactly on.

Christian1095 - 9-23-2008 at 01:47 PM

Indeed - I agree with Samir...

Amos - 9-23-2008 at 05:09 PM

SamirCanada mentioned the time a few years back when someone got scammed and the community helped him out with money...that was me, when I was sold a useless damaged Shehata under false circumstances. I have never forgotten how grateful I felt and still do, to this community and I agree that commercial sellers do not belong here. Its true that most of us can tell a scam artist right away and I think that we all need to be sure to give our advice/support to people posting "I want to buy an oud" posts and to keep a suspicious eye out for people who are selling crap or posting commerical ads. I think we do a good job of this already and I am proud of all of us a group...several friends of mine have safely bought ouds on this forum, and I would like to help that continue.
People like Mavrothis and Jonathan are great sources for Turkish oud info (history, purchasing info, credentials for vintage instruments, etc.) on this board, I have had great exchanges of info with them, and I have heard great things about SamirCanada too. Thats just a few names of so many honest and knowledgeable oud lovers here.
Amos

Mike - 9-23-2008 at 05:41 PM

I appreciate everybody's fervor in regards to this matter. It sucks to get screwed. The fact that Francis is getting this kind of support from a bunch of people who more than likely have never even met each other, but are taking the time and effort to show how much they care is what continues to make these forums what they are. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do or am willing to do at this point in regards to commercial sellers on the forums. My only advice is to read the disclaimer thread carefully, and follow it's instructions. http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=1973

When you think back about it, we only found out about folks like Sandi Sandettin on the Oud Home Page forums. Then we got to know folks like Faruk, Nazih, Dimitris, and many others on here. I hope there will be more and more in the future. Ultimately peoples true colors come out.

francis - 9-23-2008 at 11:07 PM

I agree with Samir, also.
And I understand Mike's post. This great forum ( in which I'm a new member ) has a past, an history made of amazing experiences . The forum is growing up and some dishonest sellers want to use his reputation for their business...
Mike didn't create this forum to get a police control job. I agree that he recalls this by the link of the initial thread .
The forum has to be regulated by each member, we don't have to ask this regulation to Mike...
This topic is full of ideas which help us now. We can gently get different opinions and feelings and this is good . May be we will agree about little changes in the forum to "protect" some new guys here.....At this time , it belongs to Mike to say if this is in the forum spirit.....
Another 2 balles worth ......

DaveH - 9-24-2008 at 01:29 AM

Encore deux balles de ma part: very insignificant suggestion: maybe the disclaimer title could be strengthened to read something to the tune of:

SCAM ALERT: READ THIS BEFORE YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT BUYING.

Great news about our new moderator. I'm sure this will help. Francis, I really hope you can get some satisfaction. I certainly believe that if Abdelaal can go the extra mile for you, it will help him a lot in this forum in the long term.

Good luck to all and soyez prudents!!

francis - 9-24-2008 at 03:13 AM

As a said before, I got punished by ordering an oud to Abdelaal......
It doesn't matter for Abdelaal, he just explains why I won't get anything....He is not personnaly concern by this, he will not have to help from himself.....I don't agree with this attitude, too expensive for me and easy money for him.
And we know he actually belongs the same oud model for selling....The will to help is just in the words . Words are free....
All what I said before, in other posts of this forum, don't tell nothing else.
Each one can built his own opinion about such a seller's position.....
I think that now I will stop to repeat this ..... I don't want to use this forum just for this story. I'm not in ease with all this posts these last days, somewhere I have a part of responsability and i'm not sure this is the more interesting topic, even if it is an important one. During this time, music is far....
When this oud is repaired, it could take a long time for me to play it quietly, without the weight of this sad story...

nadir - 9-24-2008 at 04:47 AM

Abdelaal should be banned from ever coming here again.

DaveH - 9-24-2008 at 05:00 AM

Hi Nadir. I understand why Francis is upset, but given we don't know the facts, maybe it's best if the rest of us avoid inflaming things more.

francis - 9-24-2008 at 06:13 AM

Dave H,
I think all the main facts of this story are in this forum ( read above and with the links ), from my opinion, from Abdelaal's opinion....from members opinion.
A lot of ink has flowed about ....
If I add that the oud differs from his description : wenge bowl instead of palissander, different keys, different bridge, six part face ( = cheap spruce? ), really thick ( an no traditional ) varnish.....
If I add ( but I don't want to, without his agrement ) what contains some Dr Atef's mails ( who deceive who? ).
I could also say more about this "swiss connection", but you can read the posts in "buy&sell" , have a look to the pictures......
I'm not a judge. I believe that what I said is enough for each one who wants to get his own opinion.....
I don't want to inflame things more......that's enough ( and probably too much ).
Salut à toi.
Francis

francis - 9-24-2008 at 06:47 AM

To end with this story.

This story takes most of me free time since one month; it takes each time a long moment for me to write in english ( I only use english , my pre-scholar english ) on these forums.
That's why I believe that it's time now to end it.
I conclude by this:
I ordered this oud for 625$ + 52$ shipping. I paid a lot of banks charges because The seller was in a hurry to be paid. I paid 108 euros ( 150$ ) for the custom charges. At all, 987 $.....
The oud will be repaired for 598 euros ( almost 1000$ ).
I don't think Abdelaal gives any dollar to me ( he didn't even send me the insurance paper, so I can't have any proof ).
This oud will coast almost 2000$.........really a cheap one.
With this money i'd better have order to Maurice Shehata or Nahzir Gadhban......

My position in the forum is very uncomfortable with this story, that's not what I want to give as my contribution. I prefer to speak again about music.

Many thanks to all members who helped me.

This is a great forum and I love it........long long life....

Francis

nadir - 9-24-2008 at 01:01 PM

I would also like to say that while the facts are reported from only Francis, Abdelaal himself has not logically made any justification or acknowledgment for his actions or what he can do to amend it.

I have also asked for an address and have not received any response from Abdelaal, publicly. Also, Abdelaal has DELETED many of his posts or EDITED them.

This is not inflammation but rather justification. I will personally not stand for a seller that has been robbing other members be present in this forum. Abdelaal is clearly acting in an illogical manner for an honest seller and consistently with a dishonest one.

We all know what he has done, yet none are calling for action. Simply ignoring the problem does not make it go away.

saudiplayer - 9-24-2008 at 04:26 PM

thanksssss

Greg - 9-25-2008 at 06:13 AM

This is an interesting thread. I, like many members of these forums, get tired of the one-shot-wonders who appear on the scene and, in their very first post, try to flog one or a number of their "products."
But, dear friends, that is the price we are sometimes forced to pay, when we participate in a public forum.

Mike's forums are hugely successful for a number of reasons. One of the most important, in my view, is that it is easy to join and participate, without an excessive amount of regulation and bureaucratic intervention.

I have joined other forums, where one needed to apply and be admitted by the administrator. Ones that required a set number of logins over a set period of time, before the new member could post. Ones that would not allow the member to edit her/his own posts. ...... and so on.

In my opinion, the administrators of those types of forums have no conception of the self-regulatory nature of quality open community debate. In many such forums, it is obvious that the administrators seem to enjoy the power trip of playing policeman, rather than carefully moderating their forums to provide for maximum community input, whilst ensuring participants maintain civility towards eachother and other outside entities.

When it comes to community forums, give me an Alvin Tofflerish adhocracy over bureaucracy any time.

Sure, there will be times when stuff happens that we are not happy about. But successful online community forums need moderators and administrators who value the freedoms of others enough to avoid applying excessive control that stifles a wide range of opinions and participant types.

If we are to maintain the co-operative flow of ideas that have made these forums so popular and enjoyable, we must tread lightly and we must be prepared to accept the limitations of some members and the excesses of others.

We were all new to these forums once and we have all posted stuff that later made us cringe. Some of us who have gone on to become respected and regular contributors, may have also used the forums to sell less-than-first-rate ouds, at one time or another. It's an imperfect world. By adding too many layers of control to these forums we will "thow the baby out with the bathwater."

Specifically on the subject of suspect sellers - Yes, it annoys me when anyone tries to pass off a fake or inferior instrument as something that it is not. But hey, what kind of fool would try to do that on a forum loaded with experts? The kind of fool who will be exposed immediately and will disappear from the forums within a very short space of time.

What about the folks who buy an instrument without doing their due diligence and then join the forums only in order to blackmail the seller into a refund. We have seen a lot of that over the years. Many of those same folks disapear from the forums the moment they get what they came for. And in some of those cases, the alleged "fraudulent" dealer is not at fault and has been criminally defamed.

To sum up my excessively long post (sorry), I would suggest that there will always be folks joining these forums for less than pure reasons. We have to accept that is the way of the world and be thankfull that the great majority of forum members join for the right reasons and help make the forums a great place to visit.

Sincerely,

Greg

Mike - 9-25-2008 at 09:38 AM

Yep Yep to that Gregorio. Exactly what you said buddy.

SamirCanada - 9-25-2008 at 09:51 AM

Ah yes Greg,
The voice of reason.

ALAMI - 9-25-2008 at 02:31 PM

I agree with Greg's approach to the problem.

The forum's stats read: 1'500 members ! This will inevitably attract all kind of sellers ( a lot..lately): good and bad makers as well as good and bad resellers. And if one day 150'000 members is reached we'll have Yamaha ouds and Yamaha fake ouds made in China. Call it: Globalisation, evil free market or whatever you want..it's a fact.

A forum is by definition a public place with a social mission, I don't think we want to be overprotective to the point of making this place a ghetto or a hermetic society.
The community can be a positive pressure group and it happened and helped on many occasions.

Seeing a good oud is always a pleasure but also seeing poorly made or fake ouds on the forums is in a way educational, it is how many of us (if not most) learned how to make the difference, what to look at and how to make an opinion.

I personally don't mind those people to continue posting here but with some "anti-spam" rules, like having any commercial posting restricted to the buy-sell area with the sanction of being deleted if posted elsewhere or "jumping" into threads to place an ad. We just witnessed an overdose of sugar in the forum's veins (sugar in Arabic being sukkar) 13 ads and still counting..... We had the "Klang" now we have the "Blitzkrieg".

May be each reseller can have a single and unique thread where he can add his new products on top of the old ones. It is better for them, they can be found in an easier way. I think we have tens of threads with the subject "Turkish oud", who would be able to find this particular oud he liked 3 months ago ?

Just my 2 Liras (0,15 c)

Greg - 9-25-2008 at 04:54 PM

Thanks Mike, Samir and Alami.

There are limits to my warm fuzziness though. And I reckon "Mahmoud Sukkar" passed them a long time ago.

Mike, if you decided to delete him and all his posts, I would agree wholeheartedly with your actions

Regards,

Greg

nadir - 9-25-2008 at 05:28 PM

Me too! :xtreme:

Mike - 9-25-2008 at 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Greg
Mike, if you decided to delete him and all his posts, I would agree wholeheartedly with your actions

So let it be written...so let it be done! :airguitar:

Mike - 9-25-2008 at 06:30 PM

I think we've about exhausted this thread, and I have decided to close it. Thanks to everybody for their concern and care for each other. Let's all be smart consumers in the future.

Here's to free speech everywhere! BTW...this round is on Samir! Cheers everybody.