I'm wondering guys, If anyone can recomend a good place to get a bone nut to replace the wooden one on my Ali Khalifeh "tourist" oud?
Also is it worth the trouble to sand off the laquer on the face and replace the pegs (horrible!) with some nice properly fitted ones? I have already
exactoed the glue off of the rosette and sanded it into really nice shape. Will all this effect the sound enough to make it worth while?
It was a gift from family, and it's actually not that bad in comparison to others Ive seen. I bought a nice intermediate walnut oud from Yehia
at nileshop a few months ago, so the Khalifeh would be nice to get into a learning expierience regarding oud building/ maintainance/repair-
I would appreciate some feedback, thanks everyone.
Tarik
Top nut
spyrosc - 5-19-2004 at 03:22 PM
I get the nuts from the local guitar shop, then trim them to make them fit the oud's neck, and put in the right notches.
Good luck
Spyros C.billkilpatrick - 5-19-2004 at 11:57 PM
i wait for my dogs to get distracted and steal one of their bones. nuts are easy and very satisfying to make. slice off an ample piece of bone,
attack it with a file or coarse sandpaper and finish it off with fine grade abrasive paper. if need be you can cut a small piece of wood for the base
and glue it to the bone.
if the rosettes are removed, dr. oud suggests placing some sort of support around the circumference of the sound hole. asthetics aside, the only
function rosettes have is structural.
pegs are a constant source of interest. you can find them on the various egyptian ebay shops.
i've got one of these "tourist" ouds - mine was a gift as well. i'm pretty ambivalent over their merits, however.
- billElie Riachi - 5-20-2004 at 12:26 PM
Sounds very familiar. I replaced all 3 roses on mine with one made of 2.5 mm birch plywood which I designed the pattern for then sent the digital
file of pattern along with material to be laser cut. See picture.
As for the pegs, they needed replaced since the slipped very bad it made it impossible to tune the oud. So I made my own. The process of properly
fitting pegs requires the proper reamer and a matching peg shaper which costs about $75. Luckily a buddy of mine loaned his set. There are other
ways for the pegs where you would use a file to file down shinny spots on the pegs and so on but you have to start with a nicely tapered hole.....
here is a link http://www.bearmeadow.com/build/methods/setup/html/installing-peg.h... But I think it is tedious and requires a lot of skill and eyeballing and I do not think it will produce as good of a fit as using the reamer and peg
shaper set. Her is a link to making your own set http://www.art-robb.co.uk/pegs.html
Rosette
spyrosc - 5-20-2004 at 12:44 PM
Hey Elie,
I always wondered if I could get somebody to laser cut the rosette patterns for me, rather than doing it the hard way. Do you have more information on
that part ? Who does it for you ?
Thanks
Spyros C.billkilpatrick - 5-20-2004 at 12:54 PM
yeah elie, how did you do that? they look absolutely fabulous! please spill the beans...
not only as to how it was cut and who did it but also how did you mount them without removing the soundboard? when wood is cut as finely as that does
is it bend sufficently to slip into the sound hole?
pray tell...
- billexcentrik - 5-20-2004 at 01:17 PM
Thanks Elie, I'm not exactly sure how to remove the face of the oud without damaging it (I dont have many tools, so if I mess up, it will be
difficult to fix) . I dont think replacing the rossette is possible, unless someone has an idea...
Thank you guys
tarik
Rosette
spyrosc - 5-20-2004 at 02:11 PM
Oh I can tell you how to replace the rosette without removing the face.
Tarik, in your case it would be a snap, because I think your Khalifa rosettes are plastic. But even if they were wood you could do it (with a bit more
work and patience - and luck ? )
Spyros C.
Don't Remove the Soundboard
Mike - 5-20-2004 at 02:21 PM
Hey guys,
What they usually do is make the rosette with a notch that can be used to slip the rosette into the face. See pic below.
Mike
heat the glue?
excentrik - 5-20-2004 at 02:35 PM
so I should just heat the glue a little bit and slip it off? The notch graphic helps but the rossette has a very convoluted designed (its says Ali
Khalifeh above a treble clef, and a bunch of "shamy" -as in bilad al-sham- designs) I'll try to send a picture, but I dont have a dig.
camera...
shukran
TarikElie Riachi - 5-20-2004 at 03:38 PM
Spyro C,
Laser cutting at http://www.pololu.com/laser_cutting.html , I think all 3 roses cost me about $30 in cutting and shipping I provided the material. I have to warn
you that the edges will be charred by the laser, but I think that is okay because it hides the layering of the plywood and it is un-noticable. It also
hides the thickness of the wood.
Bill & Tarik,
As Bill figured, I didn't remove the face to install the new roses. The way I put in the new roses is I cut sort of a V notch into the perimeter
of the rose which created a path to one of the gaps in the pattern. Holding the rose perpendicular to the hole, this allowed me to slip the rose in by
sliding the rose such that the edge of the soundboard passes through the notch. Now the opposite edge of the rose has cleared the edge of the hole,
so I carefelly pushed the rose in. Before I started this, I passed a string through the rose (see picture.) I used the string to control the rose
like a puppet while I applied glue. Then used the strings and some stick to hold the rose to board while the glue sets. The strings and sticks idea
I got from Dr. Oud. As for the idea of sliding the rose in such a way I'm not certain if that is how Dr. Oud would have done it exactly this way
but his remarks steered in this direction!
Note: the V notch will have a narrow opening slightly wider that the thickness of the board. The wide opening of the V is about 3 times the width of
the narrow one.
Well I hope this helps!
Rosette
spyrosc - 5-20-2004 at 03:47 PM
Tarik,
I find the easiest way is to heat a thin blade (like an exacto) and slip it between the soundboard and the rosette. If the glue is hide glue (usual
case) the rosette will come unglued. The fact that it is probably plastic will allow you to just bend it slightly and pull it out. If it's not
plastic, then there either it has the notch that Mike described, or it is not a full circle. Either way you can pull it out.
Here's the secret. Before you start, tie a string through the bilad al-sham designs so that even if the rosette falls inside the oud you can pull
it up.
To put it back on, you will need to do the string thing with 6 string loops holding it as you are inserting it. You can look at Dr. Oud's book on
how to do this, and. interestingly enough, you can see another way of doing it if you watch that German "Oud" video that Mike has posted.
They use the strings with some wood blocks that are wider in one dimension so they can lift them up which pulls the string loops and tightens the
rosette against the inside of the face.
However, I don't know why you would want to mess with your rosette in the first place. It's fine for the oud you have, and is not really
affecting your sound in this case.
Good Luck
Spyros C.Elie Riachi - 5-20-2004 at 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by excentrik
so I should just heat the glue a little bit and slip it off? The notch graphic helps but the rossette has a very convoluted designed (its says Ali
Khalifeh above a treble clef, and a bunch of "shamy" -as in bilad al-sham- designs) I'll try to send a picture, but I dont have a dig.
camera...
shukran
Tarik
You could take an Exacto knife and very carefully slide it between board and rose, imagine you are cutting the glue layer and do not rush or force
things.
You do not need a lot of space as I explained in post above. All the space you will need is the width of the border of the rose that you make.
Tookrum khayoo,
Elie
Crossing in the mail !
spyrosc - 5-20-2004 at 04:39 PM
Hey Elie,
Thanks for the laser info.
Looks like you and I been posting almost identical descriptions just seconds appart without knowing the other person was doing it ! OK, you go first,
I'll shut up
Spyros C.
No problem
Elie Riachi - 5-20-2004 at 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by spyrosc
Hey Elie,
Thanks for the laser info.
Looks like you and I been posting almost identical descriptions just seconds appart without knowing the other person was doing it ! OK, you go first,
I'll shut up
Spyros C.
No problem dude. Same happened with Mike's post. It took me a while to get mine up. I had to run over to sister-in-law's house, in the
middle of composing the reply, since she called with an emergency. My 3.5 year old son got his finger stuck in a plastic funnel toy. Everything is
okay though.
Where is the video?
Elie Riachi - 5-20-2004 at 05:36 PM
Spyros,
Could you tell where the video is? I cannot seem to find it. Thanks.
Elie
The Movie
spyrosc - 5-20-2004 at 08:07 PM
Elie,
For some reason I can't find it here either, but I have it on my computer. It's about 5MB. If your e-mail can take it, tell me your e-mail
address and I will send it to you.
Basically what they are doing, is they use two small blocks of wood that are wider than they are high. So they pass the string loops through the
rosette and the blocks as normal, they tighten them loosely (like your lollypop sticks) and then they flip the blocks onto their narrow side, so the
wider side now becomes the height, and it naturally causes the strings to stretch and pull the rosette up against the face.
Spyros C.billkilpatrick - 5-21-2004 at 05:18 AM
love it! - low tech is where it's at...
your correspondence (collective) is positively inspirational - can't wait to try the rosette replacements on my "down in the pits" - as
opposed to "top of the line" - kahalifeh oud. i removed the tasteful plastic rosettes by cutting through the soft plastic with an exacto
knife (boy, did that feel good). that part of the rosette that was glued to the underside of the sound hole simply peeled off with out a hitch.
in the same vein, do you-all have any similar strokes of genius for "righting" the neck to bring it back up in alignment to the sound
board?
plastic rosettes?... warped neck?... who gives a sh*t craftsmanship?... don't you wish you owned one too?
- billMike - 5-21-2004 at 06:24 AM
Hey guys,
I put that video up again. It is now on the Video Clips page for good now. And Bill, thanks for entertaining us all with your very amusing posts!
Take care fellas,
Mike
Thanks
Elie Riachi - 5-21-2004 at 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike
Hey guys,
I put that video up again. It is now on the Video Clips page for good now. And Bill, thanks for entertaining us all with your very amusing posts!
Take care fellas,
Mike
Thanks Mike. I was trying to find Astrid's video clip making an oud. Is there one anyway or maybe I misunderstood someone?
Spyro,
Thanks for the offer. I think my email is right at 5 MB. I'll just watch it. Thanks anyway.
Elieexcentrik - 5-21-2004 at 09:40 AM
THank YOU GUYS!!! I appreciate the immediate help, People are wondering why I'm doing this; simply to learn more about the construction and
restoration process of oudism... I know its really not worth it for sound reasons, but the expierience is actually a lot of fun. Ya know? Thanks
again spyros, elie, mike, and bill for throwing me the info-
Ill send pictures when I can...
Ateek al afia-
TarikElie Riachi - 5-21-2004 at 12:46 PM
I know this might sound strange, but I'm getting ready to put the original pegs back after I re-shape the shafts and of course have to install
bushings in the holes and ream them.
I am doing this because the ones I made out of cheap dowel rods were supposed to be an experiment and temporary. They do work well but the shafts
ended up being too large in diameter which made it a little too sensitive when tuning, in otherwards a small twist will cause a half a step. I
thought of getting violin tuning pegs but the decided to maintain the original look of the pegs "rectangular heads".
Tarik,
If your tuning pegs stay in tune, you might want to consider just letting them be and save yourself the hastle.
Good luck,
Elie
Warped neck
spyrosc - 5-21-2004 at 03:28 PM
Hey Bill, are you really looking to straighten that neck out ?
Is yours also one of those "false" Ali Khalifa's that have been going around ?
Spyros C.billkilpatrick - 5-21-2004 at 10:23 PM
yes, my wife bought me one of these dud ouds for christmas and yes, i'd like to straighten out the warped neck.
this happened on my egyptian oud as well. the luthier i brought it to glued a wedge of ebony onto the existing fingerboard to compensate for the
drop in level.
if there's something i can do that saves me a trip to "mr. money" i'd really appreciate knowing about it.
ciao - bill
Neck straightening
spyrosc - 5-21-2004 at 10:53 PM
Bill,
1) Where are you located ? Are you anywhere close to the SF Bay Area ? If so I could take a look at your oud. I've dealt with a few of those
Khalifas already.
2) Can you describe the problem exactly ? How old is the oud ? You said it was a recent Christmas present ? was it new ? Can you look inside and see
the year on the label ? It is in Arabic but you can recognize Arabic numerals easily, you will see something like 199.... probably, except that the
tails of Arabic nines go the other way (towards the right), and it will be followed by another symbol which will be the year. If you removed the
rosette already you could probably take a picture and let me see it. You probably have the likeness of Mouafaq staring at you with his mustachioed
glory.
Spyros C.chuckerbutty - 5-22-2004 at 12:51 AM
Great thread, very informative. Pure comedy as well, but then so are Khalifeh's ouds by the look of things!
Cheers Mike for that brilliant video, I'd never seen it before. Bill, a warped neck on one oud is unlucky, but on two?billkilpatrick - 5-22-2004 at 05:57 AM
spyros -
i live in italy. i lived in s.f. briefly in the '70's.
we're talking about the same instrument. i had a look at the tag inside but couldn't distinguish numbers from letters in the arabic script
so i have no idea when it was made. there's a little telephone symbol with - what i imagine is - a telephone number underneath it but it's
been crossed-out with a ball point pen. this would indicate that they've changed address so sending 'round some syrians in suits to
remonstrate with them forceably for their shoddy workmanship is, alas, no longer an option.
if you were thinking of talking me through a major, wood-working type operation i'm afraid i'll have to say no. i enjoy fiddleing around
with little bits like bone nuts and risha but anything that involves a face lift and re-arranging the oud's innards is beyond my capacity,
i'm afraid. if it's low-tech and simple to do, i'm your man.
chuck - yes, two warped necks are unfortunate but as they were both gifts, i think i've been blessed.
ever hopeful - billElie Riachi - 5-22-2004 at 07:29 AM
Hi Bill,
Could it be that there is too much tension in the strings attached to the farthest away pegs?
Fixing a warpped neck is a major operation. It involves sawing off the neck at the block.
Take care,
Eliebillkilpatrick - 5-22-2004 at 01:28 PM
ahhhh...i was afraid of that.
i don't know what tarik is going to do with his khalifeh oud but what i'm going to do is put it back in its bag, put the bag in the closet
and then i'm going to close the door.
kind regards - bill
Warped neck
spyrosc - 5-22-2004 at 08:58 PM
Dammit Bill, and I was going to do the video surgery thing with you man, just like in the movies.
I'll be in Greece this summer, maybe I can stop by in Italy and visit with you and your collection.
Anyway, I'm attaching a little blurb by Dr. Oud (Richard Hankey) on crooked necks and some remedies, but I'm afraid most of them require a
medical degree in oud surgery, which, sadly, leaves you out.
Good Luck
Spyros C.
SF?
excentrik - 5-24-2004 at 09:39 AM
Spyros,
I live and work in San Fran- Let me know if you want to take a look at my project, I dont know if it is one the "fake" Ali Khalifehs or
not- Maybe you could help me out
Tarik
Getting together
spyrosc - 5-24-2004 at 03:38 PM
Hey brother,
You're in Oakland, I'm in Concord and I go to Hayward 3 times a week. We can meet no problem.
Here's my e-mail, send me your phone # and other details and we can set-up a meeting.
