Mike's Oud Forums

degenerated MAQAM system?

Edward Powell - 2-6-2009 at 07:53 AM

At the risk of sounding cynical...

while it seems obvious that oud technique has greatly improved in recent years, it is equally obvious that the maqam system has degenerated and continues to do so.

however, I am the first to say "better a degenerated maqam system than NO maqam system".

what I am trying to point out is that there are literally hundreds and hundreds of maqams... but what do we hear these "TOP" oud performers playing again and again and again and again and again........

RAST
NAHAWAND
BAYATI
HIJAZ
...maybe Hijazkar or Huzam if you are lucky...

perhaps a MAXIMUM of 10 maqams at the moment in common use with an overwhelming predominance of the 3 or 4 above mentioned.

....sorry, but this gets boring after a while.

Is it becoming the MACDONALDS of arabic music? I mean, the condition of arab music is clear to me after being 6 weeks in cairo - - - but is this monoculture of maqam choice helping matters any?

I read that in the heyday of the Ottoman times there were dozens and dozens of makams in constant common use, and composers were constantly creating new makams and combined makams. . . . . .

why do we not at least hear an occational BASTANIKAR, KARJIGHAR, SIKAH, NAIRUZ, MUSTAAR, or SUZIDIL MAQAM taksim???

Is it because the performers are afraid to depart from what they hope will be somewhat recognisable... or do they simply lack the vocabulary?

[perhaps they are spending most of their practice time developing speed rather than melodic depth. . . . . this anyway seems to be what the audiences are best responding to]

Ararat66 - 2-6-2009 at 12:05 PM

I have a great soft spot for Husseini
:rolleyes:
Leon

Arto - 2-6-2009 at 12:30 PM

And I for Ussak...
:xtreme:
Arto

Edward Powell - 2-6-2009 at 12:46 PM

yes Huseini!!! I never hear Arabs play it as a "feature" maqam. However it seems to be done in Iraq. Jamil does a great rendition!

Ussak is also one of my huge favs.... and to be honest it irritates my a bit how Arabs tend not to make much differentiation btw Ussak and Bayati. They seem to have just mixed the two together and called it Bayati, but from my understanding originally Bayati was restricted only to the middle region, and would not-for example- play much around the root-tonic, except in final cadance. Mohammed Antar actually calls Ussak "Dugah Maqam". ---I wonder why he doesn't just call it Ussak? ...especially since Dugah Makami in Ottoman music is something totally different than Ussak (according to what I was taught)

thanks for you interest in this thread guys.... I would like to hear from others about what are some favourite maqams out there - especially those that rarely get played.

Thanks!

katakofka - 2-6-2009 at 01:20 PM

Makams on youtube:)
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=FantasticoTube&view=videos
Makes you deciding which one you like. My best Makam is Tarzanwiin:D figure out what is that ;)

Edward Powell - 2-6-2009 at 02:10 PM

http://www.youtube.com/user/basilazah

check this out!
Fantastic! ...just created last week.

charlie oud - 2-6-2009 at 02:59 PM

I like this one but I dont remember the name, can someone tell me?, Here are the notes: C D Eb F Gb A Bb C

corridoio - 2-6-2009 at 03:11 PM

Hi Charlie
looking on my sheets this is Nahawand Murassah:
Nahawand on C then Hijaz on F
Ale

JT - 2-6-2009 at 03:35 PM

Edward,

We do hear these modes, but usually within a taqasim. The 'popular' maqams you mentioned are the parent Maqams, head of the families in which the others branch out. Its a middle Eastern thing I guess, you wait on your father to start eating first before you dig in...:)

Because these maqams are branches and not the head of the table, the others are stronger and much more accepted to branch from them, ofcourse there are cases. But believe me this 'degenerating' system (I dont believe it is) beats major and minor and should be given credit for what it is. As for popularity of the maqams and taqasims its personal taste of the player, gathering and what music they want to play before or after...


All the best man,

JT

charlie oud - 2-6-2009 at 04:10 PM

Thanks Ale, Murassah. I will remember that. Charlie

eliot - 2-6-2009 at 06:27 PM

It's not as if Karcigar was ever a widely used maqam in Egypt. It's quite clearly a mode that is most frequently used in West Asian (particularly in Greco-Turkish stuff found along the Aegean) regional folk musics, was later incorporated into the Ottoman art music makam system, spread through the Arab world due to Ottoman control of Arab territories, and then experimented with in 20s-40s Egyptian compositions, only to fall by the wayside.

Some of the other maqamat you list also have no longstanding basis in Arab traditional music practice but are "foreign imports." Arab music NEVER had compound maqamat akin to the 19th century Turkish murekkeb makamlar (and it's through the compound makamlar that the numbers of possible makam mushroomed in the Turkish music purview). So their current non-use is perhaps less of a degeneration rather than a shedding of Ottoman art music influences.

If you want to decry the lack of an experimental tendency in today's performers and composers, that's another matter, one that hasn't been discussed much. I'm with you on the strangeness of the technical tendency in playing - I have a hard time "feeling" long streams of 3-octave scales, arpeggios, and endless streams of 32nd notes, regardless of whether in a familiar or an obscure maqam!

katakofka - 2-6-2009 at 07:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by eliot
Some of the other maqamat you list also have no longstanding basis in Arab traditional music practice but are "foreign imports." Arab music NEVER had compound maqamat akin to the 19th century Turkish murekkeb makamlar (and it's through the compound makamlar that the numbers of possible makam mushroomed in the Turkish music purview). So their current non-use is perhaps less of a degeneration rather than a shedding of Ottoman art music influences.


mmm....this is controversial Eliot saying that Arab traditional music never had compound makamat. On what structure "al muwashahaat" were composed if no compound makamaat exisited at the time of the Abbasid empire before the turkish empire?
This is part of al mowashah "mala el kasat".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4IVhOAbbFo&feature=related
Most of the arabic singers at the time of the ottoman empire used to sing for the Sultan or the governor of the region in palaces. They introduced the word amaan in their mowashahaat to please the turkish Governor. One might be mislead by hearing the "amaan word" and would say this is a turkish form; however, it 's not the case.
Arabic music before the ottoman empire had developed makams as well as developed rythms.
check that..there is a muwashah, an old one, with 5/4 rythm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwwcc7hMGEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj9RUg1xjkM&feature=related
Of note is that a big part of the nomenclature of the makams are from Persian origin too. Arabs took from the Persians and the turk took from the arabs, developed the makam system in more details and made new makams of course.

Masel - 2-7-2009 at 02:40 AM

Edward Powell I wanted to add that most countries that use arab maqam were never as interested in theory as the turks. The turks were the head of a huge wealthy empire and had lots of time to pursue and develop dozens of obscure maklamar based on regional influences or pure theory. It might also be geographic proximity to europe that influenced their temperment. Other peoples of the middle east on the other hand were less concerened with theory, maybe also because of temperment or economic reasons, and were more concerened with developing long themes without jumping constantly between maqamat, which you can appreciate also.

For example persian dastgah, iraqi maqam, moroccan/algierian nuba, syrian muwashahat. Each of these systems is very complex in its own way. I agree its less exotic (and I admit sometimes less exciting) to hear the same maqamat over and over but you are looking at it I believe from european eyes, looking for more complicated theory, where in effect the true art is the practice. Try playing maqam rast and ONLY rast for one hour and you will see that it takes great mastery to keep the spirit of one maqam for a long time can be harder than jumping to a different one every phrase.

It reminds me of the time that I asked Yair Dalal about Salah al-Qweiti's song "ya hafer elbir". I asked him if the iraqis that wrote and play this song would say it is in maqam muhayyer (because of the descending seyir) or simply call bayat. He gave the example of Avraham Salman, the great qanun player. "He can play anything, if you ask him if this song is muhayyer he will say 'yes maybe it is muhayyer', if you ask him is it bayat he will say 'ok so call it bayat what is the difference'".

But what you say about modern players I agree with. I would like to see people learning more seriously about all the different systems and learning to use their similarities and differences for creating new interesting music. Since the modern world changes everything I think the way to go is to learn about the different systems so that they dont collapse into one big mess, but then learn how to combine them in new ways, this is how music has always developed.

Masel - 2-7-2009 at 02:50 AM

By the way katakofta that muwashah is not 5/4 the rhythm is samai (that comes from turkey of course). But there are many irregular muwashahat rhythms. Can you recommend some good muwashahat albums, groups, singers?

Ararat66 - 2-7-2009 at 03:17 AM

I also have a soft spot for Paklava and coffee, which may also be modal;)

Leon

Edward Powell - 2-7-2009 at 03:23 AM

Thanks so much guys for engaging in this discussion -
So many points to discuss... I will start by responding to Joe's post.

Yes, I "got" the jist of what you are mentioning when I analysed the modulations you and Mamdouh make on your "meeting" clips. Obviously it is in the modulations where the maqam system is alive in Arabic music.

Perhaps the problem is my unfamiliarity with the details of Arabic "classical" music. I have been much much closer to Ottoman music and can therefore speak about it with much more conviction and accuracy.

Hense, I really don't know how it is in Arab music: it is really as you say, that there are just a small handful of "parent maqams" and a greater number of "off-spring maqams" which only get attention as a modulation from a Parent Maqam? If this is how it has always been done with the Arab maqam (even in it's heyday --- when was THAT?) then what can I say?

However, my experience with maqam has been very Turkish so I get my reference point from there. For example in Turkey - although of course some makams are much more popular than others - still every makam (I am not including each and every obscure multicompound makam that was ever contrived in existance, but rather, well over 100 REAL makams) shares an equal status in terms of its capabilities and potentialities. Every makam has it's own AYIN composed for it. Some makams have several AYINS composed for it however, according to Necati, there is only one AYIN for each makam that became famous, remembered, and hense became the standard AYIN for that makam. -

- Each of these makams has it's own SEYIR, which is the complex GRAMMER and ROADMAP which comes with it. [it is the differences in SEYIR which make such a huge difference btw makams like shehnaz, hicazkar, chedaraban, suzidil, turkish suzinak, evcara, -all of which have the same scale but different tonics.
- another example is makams USSAK, BAYATI, ACEM, - all 3 have exactly the same scale AND EXACTLY THE SAME TONIC ALSO... yet the difference in SEYIR gives them all a unique mood of their own.

The specific grammatical differences give each of these makams totally different characters. And thru the SEYIR (which governs: melodic direction, important and not important notes, shiftable notes, temporary stopping points on nearby makams, and common full modulations) each makam has the potential to be a PARENT makam. ---this is how it is in Ottoman music anyway... but as I said, I really don't know Arab music well enough yet to know if it was ever this way down here??

Of course, in terms of strictly MODAL music, if all we get are MAJOR and MINOR, then that is of course ultra-limited. but if we are thinking about JAZZ or Western Classical music, the major/minor becomes much more than that thru the use of the underlying Harmony.

- - -

Hey is that Eliot from Istanbul???
Thanks for offering these clarifications... very helpful in my quest to put these puzzle pieces together.
You mention Arabs not having indulged in the compound maqam... yes, in general, this seems evident - however how does one classify maqam SIKAH-HUZAM, or BAYATI-HUSEINI?

However, you get my main point which is that there perhaps seems to be a general lack of experimental tendency amount arab oudis, or should I say - rather EXPERIMENTAL IN TERMS OF MAQAM USAGE.

- - -

yes... as KATA points out, to really understand what is going on here it is necessary to understand what was going on musically in these regions before the Ottomans and beyond. Where are which makams coming from? Where is the concept of the SEYIR (composed makam) coming from? Where and when did modulation become the norm (it doesn't happen in the RAGA system)? When did this music shift from 'musical tendencies within an oral tradition' to 'fixed grammatical standardised melodic rules'?

- - -

one day while in istanbul a couple of years ago I was talking to a brilliant young oudi and questioning him regarding common modulations of various makams. I used to do this with every musician I met in order to expand my knowledge of which makams I AM ALLOWED to modulate into from a given makam. Finally he really turned the whole thing upside down for me and brought it all back down to earth when he said - "You are free, yani (he always said "yani" at the end of each sentence)! You can go anywhere you want! If you have the feeling to go there, then GO there, or there, GO there --- nobody is judging you or watching you to make sure you do it CORRECTLY - - - if it sounds good, and feels good, then you are free to do it!"

Other players tempered this slightly by saying that although we are free, still it greatly helps the music to sound smooth, if there is at least a minimum of logic in the proposed modulation.

Edward Powell - 2-7-2009 at 05:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by corridoio
Hi Charlie
looking on my sheets this is Nahawand Murassah:
Nahawand on C then Hijaz on F
Ale


anyone know of some clips of this one??

katakofka - 2-7-2009 at 06:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Masel
By the way katakofta that muwashah is not 5/4 the rhythm is samai (that comes from turkey of course). But there are many irregular muwashahat rhythms. Can you recommend some good muwashahat albums, groups, singers?


There are 3 muwashahaat in those link I posted. At min 3:29 is the beginning of muwashah "ma htiyaali ya rifaaki" which is 5/4.
the rhythm 10/8 samai is not a turkish one. You can find it in many mouwashahs coming from Andalusia meaning coming from the Omawiyyin empire (before the abbasid). By the way, the word samai is coming from "samaa" which means "Listening" in arabic, like Oud, Oudi, samaa, samaai. Why would the turks use an arabic name for a form they created?
Sabri el mudallal is one of the best. You probably can find CD on the net.

katakofka - 2-7-2009 at 07:02 AM

Here is muwashah "ma htyaali" the 5/4 but a studio version sung by Suaad Mhammad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeDZ8qdmmdk

Masel - 2-7-2009 at 07:17 AM

I stand corrected. Thank you!

katakofka - 2-7-2009 at 07:21 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ5oounu_Ps
very popular one from the same album of suuad mhammad

Edward Powell - 2-7-2009 at 07:53 AM

I stumbled upon this clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AauI-PZsXnw

It seems to be in SIKAH-HUZAM... now THIS is the kind of Arabic music that sends shivers up my spine! ...it's nothing at all like you will find anywhere else in the world - certainly not Turkey!

Masel - 2-7-2009 at 08:35 AM

Eddie baby (do you like monty python?), that clip is not a muwashah. That is the great Riadh elSunbati, a modern egyptian composer. This is a "textbook example" how you say in english of arabic music, his style and voice are one of the best but it is not revolutionary or unique in a way different from other arabic music .The maqam by the way is not huzzam it is maqam iraq - segah on B-b- and bayat on D. I like this maqam alot, and i I did once an analysis of a samai iraq composed by Salim alNur, I wanted other people to do something similar but I guess no one was interested.

Here it is: http://arabicouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7427#pid46649

katakofka - 2-7-2009 at 09:06 AM

You would love this Ed for Riad Essombati. Typical riad !
http://www.sawari.com/torath/fateen/Riad%20Essonbati%20Bayne%20wa%2...

eliot - 2-7-2009 at 09:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by katakofka
mmm....this is controversial Eliot saying that Arab traditional music never had compound makamat. On what structure "al muwashahaat" were composed if no compound makamaat exisited at the time of the Abbasid empire before the turkish empire?

Arabic music before the ottoman empire had developed makams as well as developed rythms.

Of note is that a big part of the nomenclature of the makams are from Persian origin too. Arabs took from the Persians and the turk took from the arabs, developed the makam system in more details and made new makams of course.


Dear Katakofka,

I think we're disagreeing not on the basis of musical practice and analysis but on the usage of terminology. "Compound makam," as I was using the term, refers to a very specific and quite recent entity in Turkish practice and to specific makam types, not to the makam system as a whole.

You mention "al muwashahaat" - let's take this genre as an example. Were there ever muwashahaat in Sedd-Araban? In Nuhuft? In Ferahfeza? Not to my knowledge. These kinds of named makam entities are themselves only a comparatively recent creation in Turkey. They specify a fixed motion between different qarar pitches. In Arab compositions, can you go directly from Bayyati on D to Rast on C to Hijaz on E half-flat? Is this a named maqam structure?

I would never argue that Arab music in Egypt doesn't have modulations, nor that it doesn't have complex systems of modulations (both in taqasim and in composed forms), nor argue that Arab music hasn't had many maqamat that are now no longer performed!

I was responding to Edward's list, which includes many "maqam" names that simply were never part of Arab music performance practice. We know the years when the makam-s Suzidil and Nuhuft were invented by specific Ottoman composers living in Istanbul. They didn't really catch on in Turkey, let alone in the Arab world. I don't see their non-use necessarily as a "loss" in the same way Edward suggested on the first post.

Thus what I said was not at all a value judgment, although I apologize if it came across as one.

eliot - 2-7-2009 at 09:21 AM

The other broader question, one that has surfaced only occasionally on this and other boards, is the extent to which "Arab maqam", "Turkish makam," "Persian mugham" (there was such a system before the radif/dastgah system was established) and/or other neighboring modal systems are actually similar or different (both historically and in the present). Yes, there is a Rast in Turkey; yes there is a Rast in Egypt; yes there is a Rast in Iraq, and yes all of them would appear to share a similar scalar structure.

But are they really the same? Sayyed Darwish's Rast compositions sound very different than Turkish şarkı which sound very different than... you get the idea. How much of this is a result of different composers, and how much can be attributed to what makam Rast/ maqam Rast actually represent or signify?

katakofka - 2-7-2009 at 09:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by eliot
although I apologize if it came across as one.


No need for an apology:) we're just discussing. My understanding for compound makams is those are "composed" makams in opposite to simple ones (3 to 4 notes maximum able to give you the needed mood). Reason why I misunderstood you.
Best

katakofka - 2-7-2009 at 09:46 AM

Takasims for Riad

http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_5.ra...

http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_1.ra...

http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_2.ra...

http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_3.ra...

Edward Powell - 2-7-2009 at 11:56 AM

I love Monty !!! But DONT CALL ME "EDDY-BABY"!:)):xtreme:
(joking!)

wow, I stummble upon the KING himself! That guy is the ESSENSE!

Elliot, what you writing is very interesting and helpful! Can you expand a bit more on this sentense:

"These kinds of named makam entities are themselves only a comparatively recent creation in Turkey. They specify a fixed motion between different qarar pitches."

You mean that the compound makam is in fact more of a combination of makams and a very specific and pre-composed way to travel thru the makam?

Would not a better term be "composed compound makam"?

From my notes I have written that compound makam can mean several things - or, there are several types of compound makam;

-one type is Dilkesaveran or Bestenigar -- in which you play a certain makam but FINISH on a different one. For example by making huseini or saba and then finishing on iraq. - i have this described as a "mixed makam"

-now... in the above type the IRAQ KARAR will cancel out the karar of the original makam.
But with makams like bayati-buselik or hisar-buselik would there be a DOUBLE KARAR? ...a karar from bayati or hisar, then FOLLOWED by another karar from buselik?

-what I have written down as the TRUE COMPOUND MAKAM is when both makams co-exist 50/50. --like kurdili hicazkar or bayati-araban.

-or there is another type of kind of ROADMAP complex makam... with very complicated SEYIR going thru many makams in it's course -
Is Sevkefza one of these? I have it written as:
-hicaz from gerdaniya
-to nikriz on acem
-to hicazkar on cargah
-karar nikriz on acemasiran
---mayan in saba on dugah

- - -

furthermore, the list I previously wrote BASTANIKAR, KARJIGHAR, SIKAH, NAIRUZ, MUSTAAR, or SUZIDIL MAQAM.... are all from my books on ARAB MAQAMAT and the ARAB MAQAM website http://www.maqamworld.com

...so obviously to one degree or another all these maqams are part of the most common arab maqamat.

THANKS!:wavey:

Edward Powell - 2-7-2009 at 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by eliot
The other broader question, one that has surfaced only occasionally on this and other boards, is the extent to which "Arab maqam", "Turkish makam," "Persian mugham" (there was such a system before the radif/dastgah system was established) and/or other neighboring modal systems are actually similar or different (both historically and in the present). Yes, there is a Rast in Turkey; yes there is a Rast in Egypt; yes there is a Rast in Iraq, and yes all of them would appear to share a similar scalar structure.

But are they really the same? Sayyed Darwish's Rast compositions sound very different than Turkish şarkı which sound very different than... you get the idea. How much of this is a result of different composers, and how much can be attributed to what makam Rast/ maqam Rast actually represent or signify?


Excellent point about RAST - and actually that is why I am down here in Egypt!... I wanted to check out first hand what these differences are.

Rast for example is clearly different in many ways. First of all the "segah" note have different intonation. Also Turkish Rast immediately touches on Turkish Segah, Ussak, and Huseini makams.

The latter 3 makams don't even exist in that form in Arabic maqamat.

Arab Rast seems to immediately move to Suznak, Nahawand, Nawaathar, Sikah Baladi (which doesn't exist in Turkish music!)

So there you go!
And on top of that the way of decoration is totally difference as well...

Edward Powell - 2-7-2009 at 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by katakofka
simple ones (3 to 4 notes maximum able to give you the needed mood).


...are you considering a 3 or 4 note tri/tetrachord to be a maqam?

of course yes... when you play RAST tetrachord it MUST be RAST! or HIJAZ tetrachord it MUST be hijaz.... etc.

but you are considering the tetrachord as a full maqam?

so does that mean that Hijaz Maqam is a compound maqam because you combine hijaz with rast (turkish)?

katakofka - 2-7-2009 at 12:25 PM

Yep...My understanding for the makams is that it's related to the mood generated. IF 4 notes are able to give a specific mood they are called makam precisely primitive makaams. Early middle eastern music was mostly based on those simple primitive makams. I am here influenced by an ethnomusicologist, a priest name Father Elias Keserwaani. http://www.musimedialogy.org/Meso.html. He calls those Modes rather than makam. Check his CV, very interesting. http://www.musimedialogy.org/Elias.html
In this view, all current makams are composed makams

Edward Powell - 2-7-2009 at 01:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by katakofka
Takasims for Riad

http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_5.ra...

http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_1.ra...

http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_2.ra...

http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/114/eyd/2/azf/sunbati-3ood_3.ra...


These are truly great! ...really capture the essense of what Im after in this music!

Edward Powell - 2-7-2009 at 01:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by katakofka
Yep...My understanding for the makams is that it's related to the mood generated. IF 4 notes are able to give a specific mood they are called makam precisely primitive makaams. Early middle eastern music was mostly based on those simple primitive makams. I am here influenced by an ethnomusicologist, a priest name Father Elias Keserwaani. http://www.musimedialogy.org/Meso.html. He calls those Modes rather than makam. Check his CV, very interesting. http://www.musimedialogy.org/Elias.html
In this view, all current makams are composed makams


I am really glad to hear that, and hear someone express it in this way because I totally agree.

In fact it fits in completely with what I am doing with my own music in the last couple two or three years.

Having studied the Raga system indepth I began to notice that in fact often-times Ragas can be broken down into tetra and penta chord - the ones that capture a particular mood in and of themselves.

So in order to finally try to make some sense and actually put to use all of the studying I have done, it began to make sense to me to attempt to merge these two systems. In fact what I have begun to do is to identify a multitude of Raga tetra/penta chords and use them in conjunction with compatible makam tetrachords, and thereby compose new compound makams - or "cross-cultural makams"... I actually call them "ragmakams".

At first I was ashamed of myself for attempting it - but after allowing myself to get comfortable in this, I realised that, at least to my own ears, it offers a whole spectrum of new melodic colours to either the raga or makam system - however you see it.

Now.... don't SHOOT ME please! ...but lately I have been having thoughts about taking this one step further. For example, I am NOT an Arab, Turk, or an Indian... my roots are in Canada and with basically blues-based music.

So, I began to also notice that essential Blue music is also fundamentally based on tetra-chords. Very primative Blues riffs are just phrases of 4 notes or so. So actually, there is another potential storehouse of characteristic melodic tetrachords available.

Taking this even further I am starting to be convinced that the very essense of all the world's modal (or semi-modal) music is in fact the tetrachord. Therefore it seems wholey possible to expand and develop the makam system to include characteristics from every musical culture the world has every seen (or heard)... a true WORLD MAQAM SYSTEM.

.....my God, now that starts to sound like something Bush would say if he was a musician:D

katakofka - 2-7-2009 at 02:16 PM

Makam Bush :buttrock:
Why not? Universal makam sounds great. Hope it will end up successfully:wavey:

Edward Powell - 2-7-2009 at 02:56 PM

yes... maybe with the "corner-sewers" (like Bush)

...sorry:))

now back to the degenerated maqam discussion:bounce:

katakofka - 2-7-2009 at 03:05 PM

honestly I am with that..Degenerated makams just to make things easier. What is the purpose of giving a new name for one makam having siga on B and Bayaat on D? we know that this makam is composed of 2. Why giving it another name?:)

Edward Powell - 2-7-2009 at 03:18 PM

Well, I am a very firm believer in "preservation is only possible thru evolution".

Of course there is a great paradox here.

but the maqam simply will not survive unless it begins to reflect the nature of our times.

What we live in now is the age of no borders - no limits - instant global communication - and universal synthesis... so why not preserve the old thru the new... recycle the beauty of the old into totally unique new forms?

...also this way each musician can create his/her own makam, or even system. Someone from siberia might know some siberian tetrachords, someone who has listened to a lot of thai music might add some thai tetrachords to the system. . . . and on and on.

katakofka - 2-7-2009 at 03:26 PM

As I see it it's a preservation of the name rather than the music:) because the moods are present it's just a matter of nomenclature. By the way, the Tarzanwiin makam that I mentioned before, it's a Kord on C and hijaaz on F (Do, Do#, MIb, Fa, Fa#, la, Sib, Do)

charlie oud - 2-8-2009 at 12:01 PM

Hey Edward,I welcome the Blues comparison. Take that Murrassah for example:
C D Eb F Gb A Bb C. Omit the D and you have a 4 note pure blues lick: C Eb F Gb up or down the notes. Even with the D its still quite bluesy. Now my point is that we can modulate to this tonality within any maqam and it works. I have heard Egyptian players do this and it kind gives new life to the Taqsim, kind of refers to the world beyond the Arabic without losing the true oud colours . C

Edward Powell - 2-8-2009 at 02:32 PM

EXACTLY!!!!!!!

in fact, C Eb F Gb is precisely the very first Blues tetrachord I identified!!!
actually, yes, mamdouh does this a couple of times on the JT clips... wonderful.

I would like to experiment with actually forming new "makams" with these sort of 'new' tetrachords'. Rather than just limiting them to fleeting modulations. BUT OF COURSE THIS IS A VERY VERY VERY TRICKY UNDERTAKING.... how it is done could either produce magic so powerful that it could lure a whole new audience to makam music - or it very easily could be a complete disaster --- as well as all points btw these two extremes are possible - and subject to opinion.

I occationally sneak a few blues riffs into an ALAP or TAKSIM when I reform. I usually only do that when I am already playing in exactly those notes, and the only real difference is in accenting and phrasing --- usually like a very subtle kind of jest, just to see who is really listening.... and of course return immediately straight back strong to the raga or makam home base.

But in future i would like to try this more "officially" and courageously - cuz after all this is the music of my roots. . . and if we do not honour our roots, what are we??

Oudini - 2-10-2009 at 04:16 PM

hey guys, im new to this forum and i wish i had 10 % of your guys knowledge of the maqams, i travel to egypt every chance i get (bcos im british born egyptian in love with egypt) and im going back for a short holiday on the 15th feb, half term (im a teacher)
I love listening to the quran being recited especially with maqam and often meet up with Ahmed Mustafa (vocal coach and expert on maqams)
i will post some videos on my youtube page (ilovemydeen)
anyways, check out my playlist on maqams expressed vocally.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9CBB831104C9607A