Mike's Oud Forums

FORMS of Arab music

Edward Powell - 2-15-2009 at 08:54 AM

I want to write something more detailed about my current understanding of these FORMS, and question I have... but in 5 minutes I must rush off to see a concert at the Opera house in Cairo.

basically I would like some help in understanding these different forms... and if anyone can share some youtube links with concrete examples of these forms - that would be amazing.

I know there are the instrumental forms semai, and bushraf, and longa. . . . . but what is a mystery to me are the various forms of vocal music. Like DAWR for example.... I've been recently told that this is the most serious vocal form and you never find it anymore today. . . .

THANKS!

katakofka - 2-15-2009 at 03:07 PM

Hey Ed
Arabic singing forms can be classified into 4 categories (probably more but those that I could count)

1-Muwashahaat
2-Dawr
3-Mawaal
4-Taktuka

the first, el muwashahaat we mentioned elsewhere in other posts

al Dawr, it's a form that resembles al Muwashahaat. Al dawr was developed mainly by Egyptian musicians like Sayyed darwish. Usually it's a complicated singing form.

Al mawwal, it's a kind of free vocal improvistion, no measures or rhythms

Al Taktuka, the most popular form. It's usually have the following structure: beginning- part-1, back to the beginning, part-2, back to the beginning (refrain, couplet, refrain sorry my french is better than my English:D)

Below you find some examples from different web sources

Dawr
1-ana haweet wentaheet
http://www.sawari.net/torath/folk/ana_haweet.mp3
sung by souad mhammad in here but you see the Satus of sayed darwish in the begining of the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfKqxdLLjQ

2-Dawr "ana esheqt"
http://www.sawari.net/torath/folk/ana-esheqt.mp3

3- Sabah fakhri does some Dawr from time to time, repeating old ones. Emta al hawa in 3 parts on youtube below originally for Om kaltum (music zakariyya ahmad)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0fK56CmHg8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQy0k8DPdN8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBoHeDpTQig&feature=related
DAwr Sibuuni ya naas, also orignally for Om kaltum (music for Zakariyya ahmad)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMsG1u-LEWA


This resembles a Dawr, the song that makes abdel wahaab popular, Ya Garata alwaadi
http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/Top/1/yajarat-alwady.mp3


Mawwal.
Wadih al safi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4289VtAwvEo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GC4Altx5zM

Karawaan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynMqgedF6WU

Eliya Bayda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUrZre-2IHA

Lotfi Bushnaak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jppOedo4_II

Taktuuka
Farid el atrashe
http://www.sawari.org/torath/5/Khatam-A-Sabro.mp3
http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/Top/1/eshtaqtellak.ram
Farid used to add a Mawwal within the taktuka as seen in estaqktellak

Abdel wahaab
http://www.sawari.com/torath/torath/Top/1/yajarat-alwady.mp3
http://www.sawari.com/torath/mb3/abdulwahab/lelt-elweda.mp3
http://www.sawari.com/torath/mb3/abdulwahab/khay.mp3

Zakariyya ahmad
el ward gamiil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odD8JCd48RQ&feature=related
Ya salaat azzeen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVAMDqc9GvA&feature=related

Saleh abdel hay,
leeh ya banafseg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sugMjGAiWGM&feature=related

hope this would help
Best
Souheil

Edward Powell - 2-15-2009 at 04:08 PM

Souheil!

This is great! ...my last email check for the day - - - 2am here... I'm off to dreamland :-)

I'm going to check all this out tomorrow first thing.... THANKS SO MUCH!!!

JT - 2-15-2009 at 06:28 PM

Dont forget Qasidah and Monologue, but these are vocal forms to do with poetic forms as musical.

JT

Owain-Hawk - 2-16-2009 at 01:34 AM

Katakofka, thats some nice music, thanks!! Edward, you'll have a lot of pleasure listening to that! Here is some more music from Adbdel Wahab...

http://lyle.smu.edu/~saad/abdelwahab/

"Below is a brief description of the different styles:

Qadeem: songs before 1928.

Mawwal: traditional arabic mawwal that starts with
Ya Leil Ya 3ein.

Dawr: traditional arabic dawr with choir interaction.

Moursal: this form does not have a clear dominant
melodic theme but it is based on a mode like etudes
in classical music. It is not mawwal because it
contains progressive melodies specially towards the
end. Two of the songs in this style contain choir
harmony. Some of the songs are characterized by the
absence of a traditionally present rhythmic pattern.

Khafeef: this style contains songs that are
composed of a number of parts separated by a single
melodic phrase that gets repeated. It conforms to the
taktouka form in traditional arabic music.

Qaseed: these are obviously poems; however, not
every poem belongs to this style. Except maybe for
Al Hawa Wal Shabab which I included in this style,
all of the songs in this style are similar in their
composition.

Jadeed: this style contains songs that were made
during and after 1933, the year when Abdelwahab
started composing his movie songs.

Watani: these are political, national, and arab
national songs."

Edward Powell - 2-17-2009 at 11:48 AM

cool!

unfortunately I can't get the Sawari clips cuz I can't read Arabic. . . .

Edward Powell - 2-18-2009 at 05:01 AM

Thanks all, especially Souheil... last night I went thru ALL of those posted clips... and am making some progress.

This is turning into an enormous task and will take me a while to digest and comment - - -

thanks - and happy listening!!!

Owain-Hawk - 2-18-2009 at 05:09 AM

I too would like to thank Souheil, it must have took some time to dig those out and post them. Thank you!!

By the way Edward, check out 'Mala El Kasat' in the Qadeem section, it's just such an amazing Arabic song (in Rast).

http://lyle.smu.edu/~saad/abdelwahab/qadeem.html

Edward Powell - 2-18-2009 at 05:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Owain-Hawk
Katakofka, thats some nice music, thanks!! Edward, you'll have a lot of pleasure listening to that! Here is some more music from Adbdel Wahab...

http://lyle.smu.edu/~saad/abdelwahab/

"Below is a brief description of the different styles:

Qadeem: songs before 1928.

Mawwal: traditional arabic mawwal that starts with
Ya Leil Ya 3ein.

Dawr: traditional arabic dawr with choir interaction.

Moursal: this form does not have a clear dominant
melodic theme but it is based on a mode like etudes
in classical music. It is not mawwal because it
contains progressive melodies specially towards the
end. Two of the songs in this style contain choir
harmony. Some of the songs are characterized by the
absence of a traditionally present rhythmic pattern.

Khafeef: this style contains songs that are
composed of a number of parts separated by a single
melodic phrase that gets repeated. It conforms to the
taktouka form in traditional arabic music.

Qaseed: these are obviously poems; however, not
every poem belongs to this style. Except maybe for
Al Hawa Wal Shabab which I included in this style,
all of the songs in this style are similar in their
composition.

Jadeed: this style contains songs that were made
during and after 1933, the year when Abdelwahab
started composing his movie songs.

Watani: these are political, national, and arab
national songs."



Yes! Great!

...but what happened in 1928 to shift the music so much??

Are there any clips to show these FORMS/STYLES??

thanks!!

Owain-Hawk - 2-18-2009 at 05:29 AM

Sorry, but what do you mean 'shift' the music so much?

Edward Powell - 2-18-2009 at 05:31 AM

Why is the QADD song only existing before 1928? Why did it disappear in 1929?

Owain-Hawk - 2-18-2009 at 05:37 AM

Ah yes, I actually don't know! I know no more than you, I'm also learning about Arabic music in general, I just wanted to share that website with you... However, I think perhaps Qadeem means 'Songs before 1928' and not a particular rhythm or form.

Edward Powell - 2-18-2009 at 05:48 AM

Souheil sent me some scores of DAWR, and I found it interesting that there is a BASS LINE written along with the main melody. I never saw this before in MODAL music, where there is more than ONE SINGLE LINE WRITTEN. Of course cello players tend to simplify what they do to make it sound more fundamental and supportive. . . . but I never knew that these lines were actually written. When did this practice begin?

Of course these "bass lines" are not counterpunctal and counterpoint does not truly exist in traditional middle-eastern music. . . .

But anyway now listening to example of DAWR on the WAHEB site (which is GR8, by the way) I can hear that there is definitely a main melody and a bass line under it.

Edward Powell - 2-18-2009 at 05:58 AM

This MOURSAL style/form is amazing... there is no repeating theme at all! It is like a long written improvisation... wow!

Just imagine if some POP singer would do something like THIS TODAY!?? It really shows how degenerated things have become. . . .

...for my ears this MOURSAL form seems to come the closest to what I could call "classical" music. It seems to me that as soon as you have short repeating themes you are already in the area of pop...

Owain-Hawk - 2-18-2009 at 06:03 AM

Cool, I'm glad you enjoy it. I agree with you, it would be great if modern musicians used this style, but it seems they don't, however listening on the Radio I heard some pop singers in (I think it was) Syria still use the old Maqams and Rhythms.

By the way, could you post those Dawr scores?? Thanks. :D

Edward Powell - 2-18-2009 at 06:04 AM

This Abdel Waheb site is really great and is exactly what I need to help me hear the specific differences in forms and styles!

Does anybody know of a site which similarly showing OK's music in this way - broken down into styles??

Owain-Hawk - 2-18-2009 at 06:06 AM

http://almashriq.hiof.no/egypt/700/780/umKoulthoum/Songs/

There is a list of 'Mode' and 'Genre' lower down on the page.

Edward Powell - 2-18-2009 at 06:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Owain-Hawk
Ah yes, I actually don't know! I know no more than you, I'm also learning about Arabic music in general, I just wanted to share that website with you... However, I think perhaps Qadeem means 'Songs before 1928' and not a particular rhythm or form.


MAQAMWORLD describes QADD as a light pop song originating in ALEPPO, usually love songs but were originally religious.... they say nothing about 1928.

Edward Powell - 2-18-2009 at 06:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Owain-Hawk
old Maqams and Rhythms.

By the way, could you post those Dawr scores?? Thanks. :D



what are the OLD MAQAMS and RHYTHMS???

I think Souheil mentioned that it would not be legal to post those scores on the net, therefore he kindly sent them to me as an email.

THANKS SOUHEIL!:xtreme:

Owain-Hawk - 2-18-2009 at 06:16 AM

By old I just meant, instead of just playing Western Minor on electric Guitar all the time, somtimes they add in a bit of Hijaz on Violin and use rythmes like Muwashahat or local tribal rythmes.

Edward Powell - 2-18-2009 at 06:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Owain-Hawk
http://almashriq.hiof.no/egypt/700/780/umKoulthoum/Songs/

There is a list of 'Mode' and 'Genre' lower down on the page.


OH MY GOD!!!!

...looks like my RSI (sore hands from too much oud practice) will recover, because these GREAT sites are offering fantastic INFO.
Wow, it even lists MAQAM, FORM, COMPOSER, YEAR, and title translation!

Too bad you can't download the entire song.

They say OK has 280 songs. . . . but many of these are 45 minutes long!!! It is quite misleading to call them a "SONG". A 'song' is usually 5 minutes max! I was told that OK's epic songs which are about 45 minutes actually repeat quite a lot and in fact contain about 15 minutes of non-repeating material. . . so wouldn't it be more accurate to say that she has 280X3 (!) "songs"???

But not ALL of her songs where long epics. Does anyone know approximately what percentage of her repertoire are these long epics? ...and when did she shift to the long epic style? ...and finally, once she shifted to the long epics, did she ever return to the short piece style?

I was reading that she used to perform in CAIRO on the first Thursday of every month... so I guess this means that she had several composers continuously composing for her, and each month she would sing a totally new, fresh, and very comprehensive 45-60 minute show!

In fact, this is just like making a totally new and complete full ALBUM/CD every month!! NON-STOP!! ...incredible!

Of course, this was quite a highly organised and almost industrial entertainment enterprise.... she had a whole team working for her... well paid full time orchestra fully trained and prepared with all the new material --- new composition ready and waiting each month --- all she had to do was learn the new material each month.... but still, wow, she must have worked incredibly hard!

Edward Powell - 2-18-2009 at 06:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Owain-Hawk
By old I just meant, instead of just playing Western Minor on electric Guitar all the time, somtimes they add in a bit of Hijaz on Violin and use rythmes like Muwashahat or local tribal rythmes.


yes, this NAHAWANDIZATION is a true catastrophy...:mad:

Owain-Hawk - 2-18-2009 at 06:46 AM

I just mean it's good when modern Arab pop singers use traditional instruments instead of using electric guitar all the time...

Masel - 2-18-2009 at 07:01 AM

Great topic. I'm in a hurry but before I go I will make a few short comments. When I have more time I might be able to add more information.

Qadeem in arabic simply means ancient. A friend of mine travelling in egypt told me that when she explained the owners of the cassette shops that she is looking for old egyptian music they would call it qadeem. I think again (like with the arabic maqam thread you started) you should look at it through the eyes of an avarege egyptian, not a european musician - meaning that qadeem probably just refers to the songs from "back then", that changed as all music changes with time, and not a specific musical genre, but maybe I'm wrong. In 1928 by the way was the first (and only?) convention of arabic music, organized by the french of course, which many people feel had a very negative affect on arabic music because it was contrived to fit 24 tone scales and other theoretical practices that only the europeans were concerned with. I guess this also changed many things about the way songs were written and played.

I heard it used to take O.K.'s orchestra two weeks to learn each new song (in her modern period with the longer songs). I guess they had the budget and public support for this. But as always the truth is less exciting (though more enlightening) than the mystery it stands behind - the practice of large orchestras and long songs lasting an hour or more is actually borrowed from western opera, which probably came to the middle east through colonialism, the same way you can hear french chanson influences in some lebanese music. Egypt was the center of entertainment for the arab world, with the large cinema industry and radio shows helping to spread this new practice.

p.s. there did of course exist suites that would take all night to play like turkish fasil, iraqi maqam, or north african nuba/malhoun, but these were more traditional and in general the modern revolutionizers of arabic music - Oum Kulthum, AbdelWahab, Farid...- did not play the older styles anymore (whether they knew how to or not is another question).
Yaniv

katakofka - 2-18-2009 at 08:09 AM

Hey guys, there was no effort in posting all those links. The only concern was what music should I post to really give good examples of the different forms. I am glad that you find those links useful
cheers
Souheil

DaveH - 2-18-2009 at 08:39 AM

The Cairo Congress was in 1932 not 1928. I'm not saying this to be pedantic, Masel, but because it makes me wonder why Owain's reference talks about Qadim meaning pre 1928 - is there another reason for the cutoff?

In any case, 1932 appears to be to Arabic music what 1066 is to us Anglo Saxons, and, as Masel says, I think the conference is key to this debate.

Here is a very good article - good as in interesting and well written - I'm not an expert so can't vouch for how well it represents the musical controversies. But it's a good lesson in the dangers of assuming that the world can always be divided neatly into western or pro-western modernisers (aka innovating geniuses or soulless copycats, depending on your point of view) and non-western upholders of tradition (aka stickinthemuds or noble savages, again, depending on your viewpoint).

eliot - 2-18-2009 at 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward Powell
But not ALL of her songs where long epics. Does anyone know approximately what percentage of her repertoire are these long epics? ...and when did she shift to the long epic style? ...and finally, once she shifted to the long epics, did she ever return to the short piece style?


you have to read Virginia Danielson's book, it's a very well researched work on Oum. Much of what you ask is answered in there, and it would be silly to simply recopy what Virginia wrote much better than most of us could paraphrase.

but responding to this question (which isn't covered in the book), you'll want to look at a progression of recording technologies that were used for her works at very specific historical points and the "maximum record time" available.

Masel - 2-18-2009 at 01:20 PM

DaveH you're right I'm sorry. I still stand by my point but it makes 1928 seem like a random date. I hope I didn't offend anyone, I didn't mean to say what you said about dividing the world into modern west and traditional east at all. Now I will read the article thank you.

DaveH - 2-18-2009 at 11:26 PM

Masel, please don't be defensive! If there's any offence caused, it's by me and my fault alone. I wouldn't dare presume to correct you when you post such beautiful music. (Just listen to any of my music clips if you want to see just how small a leg I have to stand on).

I wasn't trying to criticise at all! Like you, I assumed the original reference to 1928 must have been to the Congress, but then I had a feeling I remembered the date as 1932 so I went and checked - not to correct you but because, like you, this makes me wonder about the significance of 1928.

And the point about modern west and traditional east was a general point, not at all directed at you - there seems to be a tendency to make this generalisation when people engage in lamenting the decline of any non-western culture.

Profuse apologies for the misunderstanding!

DaveH - 2-18-2009 at 11:31 PM

PS. the Mark Thorn article references a book chapter by Ali Jihad Racy that I photocopied. I'm going to go and look that out too.

Masel - 2-19-2009 at 03:36 AM

Ok Dave, but I do want to say that I don't know how the official argument ended but obviously the piano (or synthisyzer) was brought to the middle east along with electric guitar and other intstuments, and now, 71 years after the legendary conference we can look back to the past and see what was for them still the future - I have very rarely (with some north-african music and maybe Omar Khorshid aside) heard middle eastern music that uses western instruments like piano or guitar, or musical infuences in a way that I liked.

I am old fashioned when it come to middle eastern music because most people making these experiments do not succeed in keeping true to the spirit of the music and end up making something mediocre.

I should add though that I play in a hard/classic rock band and our "vision" is to combine these two different musical worlds (for me the perfect yin and yan of music!) into one, but only in a way that is true to what is really beautiful about middle eastern music and yet rock at the same time. We are still not there. This takes alot of practice and again I've barely heard any experiments that I've really liked.

Edward Powell - 2-23-2009 at 07:31 AM

...this is a continuation of my latest rant over on the another thread - in which I try to make a case for the Turk makam system as being the original and more highly developed and worthy of greater recognition.

Now, just taking some time to think about what I wrote, and also what possible reasons could be behind the current status quo--- it occured to me that the issue of FORM is also significant.

For example I was just about to write that although it appears that the Arab maqam is not as 'developed' as it's Turkish counterpart, I would add that it does appear that Arab music has developed very highly in terms of FORM.

No question however about the sophistication for in Turkish FORM as exemplified in the AYIN... however, the AYIN and other forms of Turkish music have not seemed to develop or even do too much since the end of the Ottoman times....

On the other hand, really a lot has happened in Egypt since the departure of the Turks... in fact this country has witnessed an unprecidented Golden Age of maqam music in the middle of this last century harolded by the careers of such monsters [meaning GREAT] as Kalsoum and Waheb.

It seems to me that about 100 or so years ago FORM in Arab music was not particularly highly developed [correct me!]... but what has happened, thru primarily the GREAT career of Om Kalsoum is that this FORM has developed magnificantly, and Arab maqam music has absolutely thrived [even if it is now dead].

It occured to me that THIS is the primary reason why the Arab oud and the Arab maqam is considered the original and the greatest - simply because of the tremendous validity it has proved of itself in the last century ---- compared to not much happening on the Turk front since the Ottoman times.

The result of which seems that the world seems to have forgotten that the primary source of today's makam music internationally is in fact Turkish in origin.

...that is, unless we start looking at where it came from before it developed so highly in Turkey.

- - -

ps- all of these are only my not very perfectly informed opinions. Please correct me if need be.

ALAMI - 2-23-2009 at 11:05 AM

Edward, I have to disagree with you on the form development issue,

The impact of Oum Kalsoum (and Abdel Wahab) great carreers has probably led to some regression in musical Forms.

The second part of the 19th and first half of the 20th century witnessed a renaissance in music known under the name of "Al Nahda", the fathers of this renaissance were Abdo Al Hamouli and Mohamad Osman both composers of great Adwar, Mouwashahat and Mawals.
The leading form was Al wasla, it is a long form where the ensemble (Takht) and the singer would immerse the public in one single main maqam (with a lot of modulations) for 45 minutes or an hour with alternated musical pieces and songs, the musical pieces were: Tahmila, samai, doulab, bashraf and the songs were Dawr, Mawal, Mouashah, Qasida and sometimes it ended with a rhytmic Taktouka.

Al wasla was the ultimate immersive tarab form mixing all forms with an emphasis on improvisation, this form sticks with the true ethymoligycal meaning of Maqam: "A place to stay", they used to stay 30 minutes to one hour in 1 maqam.

The controversial 1932 convention is only a theoretical breaking point, the convention labeled the living Hamouli and Osman school under the "traditional" etiquette (what Masel refers to as Qadim), but the change didn't deeply occured until the fifties and it was more for political reasons:
The new republic wanted to break with what was called "the Khedieval music" (the khediv being the King of Egypt ), Oum Koulsoum and Abdel wahab supported Nasserism and the "modern progressive future" that Nasser was promising. The regime was controlling the ultimate "musical weapon": the radio.
The "old school" was doomed.

I will try to put on ftp some surviving records of full waslas.

Hamouli and Osman used to compose with Improvisation in mind, what the great Abdel Wahab, Kasabji and Sunbati didn't. For me this is where things really changed and where Form started regressing.

One final note, referring to Turkish/Arabic schools a century and so ago can be misleading in the way that it didn't meant then what it means now, they were both still under the Ottoman empire and nationalisms where just starting to take form, Abdo Al Hamouli was sent to Istanbul by the Khediv and he went back with the Hijaz Kar that was unknown in Egypt, back then it was just a maqam "from another region" not "a Turkish" Maqam.

Masel - 2-23-2009 at 01:45 PM

Thank you ALAMI I would LOVE to hear those records please share them with us.

Edward Powell - 2-23-2009 at 03:06 PM

Great!
This [and on the other thread] is the kind of response I was hoping for---- I really need this education and look forward to follow up by studying these posts much further. . . and hopefully with examples of everything...

I hope to get my laptop back tomorrow from service, so let's hope my research can continue...

THANKS SO MUCH

ALAMI - 2-24-2009 at 08:02 AM

The Egyptian Wasla:

1- Wasla Bayati - Saleh Abdel Hay

2- Wasla Rast - Marie Joubran

3- Wasla Nahawand - Marie Joubran



The Aleppian Wasla
1- Sikah - Adib Al Dayekh

2- Bayyati - Adib Al Dayekh

The Aleppian wasla is also called Al Fasel and is more oriented towards Muwashah, Mawal and Kasida

Better to right click on the abv links and choose "save link as.." (the files are about 10 MB each)

Edward Powell - 2-24-2009 at 08:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ALAMI
Edward, I have to disagree with you on the form development issue,

The impact of Oum Kalsoum (and Abdel Wahab) great carreers has probably led to some regression in musical Forms.

The second part of the 19th and first half of the 20th century witnessed a renaissance in music known under the name of "Al Nahda", the fathers of this renaissance were Abdo Al Hamouli and Mohamad Osman both composers of great Adwar, Mouwashahat and Mawals.
The leading form was Al wasla, it is a long form where the ensemble (Takht) and the singer would immerse the public in one single main maqam (with a lot of modulations) for 45 minutes or an hour with alternated musical pieces and songs, the musical pieces were: Tahmila, samai, doulab, bashraf and the songs were Dawr, Mawal, Mouashah, Qasida and sometimes it ended with a rhytmic Taktouka.

Al wasla was the ultimate immersive tarab form mixing all forms with an emphasis on improvisation, this form sticks with the true ethymoligycal meaning of Maqam: "A place to stay", they used to stay 30 minutes to one hour in 1 maqam.

The controversial 1932 convention is only a theoretical breaking point, the convention labeled the living Hamouli and Osman school under the "traditional" etiquette (what Masel refers to as Qadim), but the change didn't deeply occured until the fifties and it was more for political reasons:
The new republic wanted to break with what was called "the Khedieval music" (the khediv being the King of Egypt ), Oum Koulsoum and Abdel wahab supported Nasserism and the "modern progressive future" that Nasser was promising. The regime was controlling the ultimate "musical weapon": the radio.
The "old school" was doomed.

I will try to put on ftp some surviving records of full waslas.

Hamouli and Osman used to compose with Improvisation in mind, what the great Abdel Wahab, Kasabji and Sunbati didn't. For me this is where things really changed and where Form started regressing.

One final note, referring to Turkish/Arabic schools a century and so ago can be misleading in the way that it didn't meant then what it means now, they were both still under the Ottoman empire and nationalisms where just starting to take form, Abdo Al Hamouli was sent to Istanbul by the Khediv and he went back with the Hijaz Kar that was unknown in Egypt, back then it was just a maqam "from another region" not "a Turkish" Maqam.


Thanks SO much for this music!!!
Do you know approximate what year these were recorded?

Other than composing in such a way as to perhaps limit improvisation - in what other ways to do you feel that Waheb and Sombati's composing signifies a degradation of form and a modernisation? Certainly the maqam usage remained intact, no? ...to my ears, this "new" music sound more complex in terms of individual melody length. . . of course one can hear in O.K.'s most recent work, a definite shift towards even Western pop - but O.K.'s older stuff sounds a lot like these Waslas. . . . . but my ears are not well trained to hear all differences yet...

thanks

ALAMI - 2-24-2009 at 12:59 PM

The Egyptian waslas recordings are from around the thirties, they are shorter than regular waslas due to recording media limit.
Adib Aldayekh recordings are from a recent CD (early 1990s) but in the ancient form (he died 2 years ago)

The degradation of form can also be perceived in the the bigger ensembles, the takht of Oum Kalthoum reached 15 musicans in the late 30s and kept growing to a full orchestra with guitar and keyboard in the 70s. But already with 15 musicians, oud and Qanun were unable to compete with the bowed instruments in term of volume. Abdelwahab went very far with the use of western instruments. The role of the musician was reduced in term of individuality and takasims were no longer allowed on stage. They were reintroduced much later on by Farid but then they were more the expression of the master's virtuosity than a maqamian establishing.

Another aspect is the simplification of the melodic phrase, it was done by all the composers of the new school: Qasabji, Zakariya Ahmad, Sunbati and Abdel Wahab. Maqams were still there and even unusual maqams were used (Qasabji wrote a song for Oum Kalthoum on Mahur which was never used as a main Maqam), the fact that the public should be able to easily learn and repeat a song has become a la mode, something that the press was praising: "The next day, everybody in the
streets was singing the new song of Al Sitt". (Al Sitt=The Lady= Oum K)
Long complex phrasing has become old school..."Qadim".

Abdel Wahab was a master of modulation but there was no time left for any maqam rooting, even the mawal was precomposed. Oum Kalthoum kept improvising but in a well framed parts of the song, even the voice ornamentations were pre programmed.

I know that it seems contradictory to call "the Golden era" a regression in form and many may disagree. The fact is that the regression that started with the New School was invisible due to the immense talent of Sunbati, Oum Koulthoum, Abdel Wahab, Sayed Darwish, Zakaria Ahmad and Qasabji. Those guys were formed at the old school and they were the heirs of a secular musical knowledge, those who came after this generation took their "regressed" form but without their talent and their ancient knowledge and that's when and where we, suddenly, realized the regression.

Edward Powell - 2-24-2009 at 01:34 PM

well.... this is ALL very interesting, insightful, and enlightening....

clearly i need to do a lot more listening to this "old school"... and wondering how I can do that...?

up til today I was under the impression that before this "new school" Arab music was much more simplistic. Short melodies which repeat - soloist once, then the chorus etc etc... I was thinking that it was the 'new school' composers that brought in these very long non-repeating complex composed melodies?

But now that I think of it, a few weeks ago I sat down and tried to learn one of O.K.'S very very early pieces. It was just a short piece with a very smal takht... but i soon realised that THIS MELODY IS REALLY REALLY COMPLEX! And I simply could not find or recognise ANY sort of verse/chorus shape or form... it just seemed to meander all over the place never repeating anything!

So i think that whay had fooled me was the short length of the piece. Whereas the newer pieces are so long - but now that you mention it.... i was also recently learning a newer OK piece (Baid Annak), and could very easily recognise the verse/chorus structure, and YES even sing along after only 2 or 3 listenings.

So, I guess these OK pieces from the late 20's are good examples of the OLD SCHOOL, right?

Now, how long has this old school been going on for --- meaning, when did these melodies begin getting so complicated?

- - -

So it is very interesting to note all of this... that in fact the degeneration began much earlier than i had ever imagined. It seems that the REAL "golden age" must have been - what - from around 1850ish to 1930???

So Qudud is actually the most sophisticated and developed stuff? Wow...

I learning, slowly. . . .

Masel - 2-24-2009 at 02:04 PM

THANK you ALAMI, for the music which I am now downloading and for sharing your great knowledge. It is always interesting when you contribute.

katakofka - 2-25-2009 at 06:41 AM

Great recordings Alami. Thanks
Adib el deeyih..wooww... beside the music the erotic lyrics (the poem) are amazing especially when he says " al nahhhhhd" (woman breast), he's emphasizing on the "h".
Alami, do you know for whom are the lyrics??

ALAMI - 2-25-2009 at 08:46 AM

Hi Souheil, you're from the Mashriq, you're predisposed to be touched by this repertoire.

Adib El Dayekh was an amazing guy, he started his life as Muezzin and was a confirmed sufi, his poetry is medieval, the tracks are from a CD called "L'amour courtois", here is what we read on the cover:

"Ghazal, the refined art of the Arab courteous poetry From Persian origin, the ghazal is regarded as the highest kind of Levantine of poetry and the great mystics who were Hâfez, Sa' di and Rûmî were the most refinet poets of the art. Very quickly this poetry of love with spiritual resonances was spread in the majority of the Oriental countries of Islamic culture and more particularly in the educated social class linked to the various brotherhoods of the Sufism. From Turkey to India,, the Arab world in the Central Asia, this refined lyric kind inspired by many artists, sensitive to subtleties with dialectical erotism in which the human love becomes the symbol of the mystical union, the spiritual reference makes it possible to justify the flow of the most terrestrial passions.

Adib Daiykh adulated, artist in his country, Master of the qasîda (impromptu poem) and the vocal improvisation, expresses the most purified erudite tradition the Arab East. He is perhaps the only contemporary singer whose so flexible and high perched voice recalls with a certain nostalgia the Arab singers of the beginning of the century."

ALAMI - 2-25-2009 at 09:09 AM

Edward guess is right, the "Nahda" period in Egypt is between the mid 19th century and the 1930s.

But before going back to Egypt at the period where "Al Dawr" was considered as the highest musical form and the star of Al Wasla, I propose 2 recordings of 2 popular and well known classical Egyptian Dawrs composed by Muhamad Osman with the voice of another great voice from Alep: Muhamad Khairy, he was the teacher of Sabah Fakhry and an amazing "old school" singer

1- Muhamad Khairy - Ebaatly Gawab


2- Muhamad Khairy - Asl El Gharam

All the "New School" composers we talked about have also composed great Dawrs (Adwar) :

Abdel Wahab - Ya Garata Al Wadi by Nour El Houda

Sunbati - Leh Ya Banafsag

Zakaria Ahmad - Dayaet Moustakbal Hayati

Be patient to download, those pieces are long....