Jonathan - 2-20-2009 at 08:04 AM
Im about to start bowl #6, and I would really love to use a solid form for this one. I hate the idea of making one, though. Sounds like it would
take me forever to do a good job. I know Kyvelos uses fiberglass. Turunz, I believe, uses wood.
I really don't feel like making one, although I have all of the dimensions that I want. Any suggestions? Is there some type of shop that would make
a fiberglass mold to my specifications?? I have no idea. It's a long shot, I know.
jdowning - 2-20-2009 at 09:24 AM
Companies that work in fibreglass - such as boat builders, surf board manufacturers etc - could probably make a custom mold in fibreglass for you.
However, as a precise wooden pattern would have to be made as the first step there would not seem to be any advantage in making a fibreglass mold?
Besides, fibreglass cloth/resin is horrible stuff to work with and the hard surface of the finished mold would not allow use of pins to hold the ribs
in position when building a bowl.
The general procedure for making a fibreglass mold would be first to make an exact wooden pattern to the precise finished dimensions required - sanded
and polished to a smooth finish. Coat the pattern with release wax (to prevent sticking) then apply a resin gel coat. Cover the pattern with several
layers of fibreglass cloth/resin and remove from mold when fully cured. This makes a female form from which the final mold can then be cast. The
inside of the form is waxed, given a gel coat and then covered with several layers of fibreglass cloth/resin to form the finished mold. After removal
from the form the completed mold would then be trimmed level and fitted to a supporting baseplate. A lot of work!
With your woodworking experience in making ouds Jonathan you should have no problem in making a solid mold from wood. Build the mold from pine
bulkheads glued together on a baseplate of the required profile and then just shave off the small amount of surplus material from the bulkheads to
produce the finished shape of the mold.
Jonathan - 2-21-2009 at 04:48 AM
I guess you're right. I sort of dread the idea of spending all this time on the mould, but I think it will be the only way I'm going to get it
done.
I think I will skip the fiberglass, though, and make a solid mould from wood.
Thanks for the response.
Jameel - 2-21-2009 at 05:14 AM
What would be really slick is if you knew someone with a large CNC mill or router. The cost would be outrageous, but if you had a friend...
Tom Moran - 2-21-2009 at 08:44 AM
What would be really slick is if you knew someone with a large CNC mill or router...
Or someone with a laser to cut the ribs 
Jonathan, I recently made a mold per pictures from one of Jameel's old posts. It was easy to do and didn't take much time. Now if I can find that
laser...
Jonathan - 2-21-2009 at 08:55 AM
A solid mold, Tom? I've made a few of those traditional oud molds, but now I want to make a solid one. There was a nice 2 part article on Kyvelos in
a couple of recent issues of the Guild of American Luthiers, where here talks a bit about his solid molds. I guess it shouldn't be too
difficult--just a bit time consuming. I guess I want to jump right away into the fun part--making the bowl, rather than making the mould.
So, about the laser---
I would absolutely love a way to make a bunch of perfectly identical ribs and see if I can make an oud that way, rather than shape each one
individually.
Thanks again, guys.
I'll post some pics when I am done.
Tom Moran - 2-21-2009 at 09:31 AM
My mold is the five bulkhead type. I was inspired by Dincer Dalkilic's method.
http://www.oudmaker.com/photoshow.asp
For right now, I'm trying to decide whether I want to spend the weekend actually practicing my oud or cutting out ribs. Decisions, decisions...
theodoropoulos - 2-21-2009 at 10:24 AM
the oud is a musical instrument with symmetry in the bowl.every point of the bowl belongs to a half-circle.so the mold doesn 't need bridges.it can
be done ....on air.Dimitris Rapakousios uses this method.so,if every rib follows the previus it can shape the bowl...
so follow the shape of mother rib (1 rib) and there is no problem
Jonathan - 2-21-2009 at 07:31 PM
The oud is symmetrical at every point, but I really would like to use the mould to help guide me. If have built about 5 bowls using the traditional
bulkhead model, but now I want to try something different.
So, I spent the entire day making (or starting) a solid mould.
Here goes:
First, I drew out the shape that I wanted.
Jonathan - 2-21-2009 at 07:32 PM
Each line corresponds to a semicircle, as the oud is made up of a series of half circles.
Jonathan - 2-21-2009 at 07:34 PM
I had some scrap particle board from some shelving that was being tossed out of an office, and from this I cut the corresponding semi-circles.
Jonathan - 2-21-2009 at 07:36 PM
Taking shape.
Now, to sand out the final form, and join the semicircles together.
theodoropoulos - 2-22-2009 at 06:51 AM
wow!!!!!!!
3 things to say
1)by sanding the previous shape i see that the loss of the model rid is quite a lot.I mean that the steps between the half circles are about 1 cm as i
can see ,so the final mold won't be perfet
2)instead of creating more than 20 half circles as i can see cut less let say 10 using an angle in the table when cuting the wood in the ripsaw.
see this site
http://www.khalafoud.com/Jameel_OudConstruction.htm
see the 4th picture from above.see how it is cut....do this in the most half circles....
then the step's height will be reduced......
3)if you want to avoid all these things take a bowl from an old oud ,fill it with a material which dries such as gypsum or i don know what ,and there
you have it.....
my opion ???follow the mold of this site..
http://www.oudmaker.com
it is very good
Jonathan - 2-22-2009 at 07:29 AM
hmmm.
I really appreciate your input. I am not a woodworker--I am just trying to figure this stuff out as I go along. So, any help is greatly appreciated.
I never did any woodworking at all until I made my first oud in 2006
But, I think. . .
The more semicircles, the closer to perfect the mold will be. Sanding these to the correct shape will be relatively easy--I will use the adjacent
half circle to scribe a guide line on the previous half circle, and then use a disc sander to make the correct angle. It should end up close to
perfect. We will see.
The picture you reference in Jameel's site is the neck block--and yes, each of the half circles above will end up being sloped in a similar manner.
oudmaker.com is Dincer's site--A great oud maker, and my experience with him (I have one of his ouds) was top-notch. I actually patterned the above
dimensions on a Dincer oud that I own. And, on the previous bowls that I have made (5), I used a mould similar to Dincer's.
I am still very new at this, so I am experimenting with different types of moulds, different oud shapes, etc.
Thanks for your input.
jdowning - 2-22-2009 at 01:28 PM
Looking good Jonathan. That is how I build solid molds (see 'Old Project - New Lute') except that I prefer to use a soft wood for the bulkheads such
as White Pine or even better Limewood, Basswood or similar (but more expensive) good carving woods and - having a bandsaw - I would also 'cut the
corner off' the bulk head profiles, at the appropriate angle, to remove as much of the waste as possible to save time. Particle board is fairly hard
stuff (and not very pleasant to carve) so may have to be worked with a power sander (and dust mask!) or by hand using a coarse wood rasp specifically
designed for use on this material (such files are not very expensive - available from hardware stores). You might also make a template of the
longitudinal profile of the mold (in thick card, hardboard, thin plywood or metal) to guide progress during the shaping operation.
theodoropoulos - 2-22-2009 at 02:03 PM
take a look at Faruk's mold....if this can give you any idea...
Peyman - 2-22-2009 at 02:25 PM
I was just thinking about this. With a solid mold, one can also build a graphite bodied out. like those cellos. The carbon fiber type or even a
cheaper version with papier mache!
Jonathan - 2-22-2009 at 05:33 PM
starting to take shape.
You're right, jdowning, this stuff is a bit of a pain to work with. But, I didn't really know any better and, heck, it was free.
Theo, thanks for the photo. That is sort of what I am shooting for.
Peyman, I don't know what a graphite body cello is, but it sounds interesting. I remember reading an interview with Kyvelos a while back where he
talks about building a really good sounding oud, as an experiment, with plastic for the bowl (I guess kind of like Ovation guitars). Heck, I'll try
anything.
Once this thing is smooth, I'll paint it, draw in the lines (or use auto pinstriping), and go to work.
Peyman - 2-22-2009 at 06:18 PM
Nice effort man. I thought the particle board might chip but this is looking great.
I think there is a utube video of those cellos, and how they are made. I haven't been able to find anything about ovation's process. I think they keep
it secret.
theodoropoulos - 2-23-2009 at 02:32 AM
i see we have the same enthousiasm about what we have in mind.
my congrats.its very good.i think you know all what we advise you and the second mold will be 100% professional.
keep the good work.
my opinion is about the wood of the mold.it must be a simple wood such as pine to work better and glue better...