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How to hold oud with right hand?

halawaterrouh - 2-22-2009 at 10:31 PM

Hello all --

I am brand new to playing the oud, and it seems that in order to play the oud correctly with my right hand, my right forearm has to hit the edge of the oud in a very uncomfortable way. I'm afraid this is going to give me carpal tunnel syndrome or press my nerves in the wrong way. Is my right forearm supposed to hit the edge of the oud?

Whenever I "hug" the oud with my elbow so that my entire forearm comes across the front of the oud, my right hand ends up being in the entirely wrong place to play the instrument. Does this mean my oud is too small? It's 66 cm - a nice Egyptian oud. I measured my arm against my teacher's and we have the same arm length approximately - he has no problem playing this oud.

Please help! I want to make sure I'm learning it right the first time so I don't have to "unlearn" it.

Thank you so much in advance!

Marina - 2-23-2009 at 03:29 AM

The oud is OK.

That happens in the begining, just keep going.

Find the most comfortable spot for yourself - balance it first withoud playing atall in the way that just the balance keep the oud on your legs, without the left hand .The RIGH hand just RESTS on the oud - it does not "keep" the oud. If you "keep" the oud with the right hand - the edge will have to hurt you - because you are pressing the arm.
Good luck.

Don't think too much, just do. Too much thinking take us away from playing - start to think after 6 months.

MatthewW - 2-23-2009 at 07:21 AM

hello and welcome to the forum! many of us have had some problem holding the oud when we started off, I recall the thing just wanted to keep sliding out from under me! What many oud playes find useful is a foot rest, something most classical guitar players place under their right foot to elevate it and make holding the guitar easier. You can adjust the height. It works equally well for the oud, and you may find it helps you get the right balance. For example here's Naseer Shamma using one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Thvk4h_25g&feature=related
They can be bought at most any music shop. most of all, relax, and go with the flow!

Arto - 2-23-2009 at 10:33 AM

Wierd... this is EXACTLY the same problem I have and have been thinking about asking it here.

If I let my arm "hang down over the oud" like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUbDxEbIzWE

... my oud stays very nicely in place, but I have to bend my wrist really lot to pick over the pickguard instead over the soundhole. (In his tutor John Bilezikjian shows this even more pronouncedly.)

And if I keep my arm "coming round the oud" like Naseer Shamma above, it´s easier to pick at the right place, but the oud does not feel as stable and the arm not as natural (to me). Many Arab players seem to keep their arm even lower, forearm almost parallel to the strings.

Is it anyway best to keep the edge of the top at the bend of my elbow? If I place the edge at the middle of my forearm, it feels really bad and leaves red lines on my skin, just from the weight of the arm, not pressing...

I surely understand it´s "practise, practise and practise" and great player get great results with different positions, but ideas and hints would be welcome. (And yes, I do keep my right knee raised a bit like Matthew suggests, it helps but does not eliminate the problem for me.)

thanks, Arto

halawaterrouh - 2-25-2009 at 07:16 PM

Thank you all so very much for your posts. I am relieved to know I am not the only one. Marina - when I looked at your concert pictures, I thought "that is how I want to hold my oud" (I have a very similar build to you) so I am very glad you wrote back.

My teacher also told me that I would have this problem at first, and that I just had to work through it and that I would eventually find a position that worked for me. So I'm going to keep plugging at it. I am determined beyond all measure to learn the oud. I think there is some secret trick to holding it that can't be explained in words, because a couple of times I've been able to play it without "holding" it with my right hand and without my arm feeling pressure, and yet it stayed in place.

Arto - I'm getting the same red lines you are. I will keep practicing and see if I can get to the point where they go away.

Salaam, halawaterrouh

DaveH - 2-26-2009 at 12:50 AM

I'd be interested to know what others think about this observation.

I find I can prevent a lot of wrist strain by angling the face up slightly. THis initially makes balancing the oud a little more difficult, but you work it out fairly quickly.

I think people are usually told to keep the oud face perpendicular to the floor. I even initially found it very tempting to position the instrument so that the face was pointing very slightly down towards the floor because the edge of the face then digs in to your thigh a little and stays in place more easily, rather than slipping off. The problem with this though is that if the face is pointing down slightly, or even if it's perpendicular to the floor, I need to bend my right wrist more and I tend to grip the oud rather than rest it (the mechanics are easier to test out in practice than to explain). With it pointing slightly upwards, my whole arm is more relaxed and the natural weight of the arm keeps the oud in place, rather than my having to exert muscular pressure to "hug" it to me.

The other advantage of this is for sound projection. If you're playing in public (OK, for a few of my more tolerant friends), I feel the sound carries better if the face is pointed slightly (say 10 degrees) upwards into the room, rather than down at the floor or straight ahead. You're always warned about this with a lute, which is much quieter, but I've not heard it discussed in relation to the oud.

The other trick lutenists often use is a piece of material draped over the legs to grip the instrument better - often a piece of chamois leather or one of the soft plastic mats that people use to stop things slipping off car dashboards.

Marina - 2-26-2009 at 02:15 AM

DaveH: "The other trick lutenists often use is a piece of material draped over the legs to grip the instrument better - often a piece of chamois leather or one of the soft plastic mats that people use to stop things slipping off car dashboards. "

I sometimes use the cloth (against carpet slipping) too!!!!
At first, I use to give the cloth to my older student (70 or so ;-)))), because I thought that they need "extra" help. But than I realise I this "extra" cloth help is really COOL. It "sets" the right hand too - just give a try!
:bounce:

DaveH - 2-26-2009 at 03:59 AM

That's the stuff, carpet underlay (the thin type you use to stop rugs slipping, not the thick, bubbly type). It works great. Thanks Marina!

Ararat66 - 2-26-2009 at 03:03 PM

Hi halawaterrouh

Ignore all this advice ... what do they know

- to really master oud you need to follow the example of my daughter Freya and utilise all the body to achieve perfect musical equilibrium ...

Leon

MatthewW - 2-26-2009 at 03:16 PM

great risha technique she's got there Leon! when will be she posting something in the Member's Sound Clips section?

Arto - 3-2-2009 at 02:36 AM

Sweet girl. You are a happy man.

TR Oud - 9-28-2011 at 02:50 PM

I'm curious about opinions on this as well. I'm an absolute beginner and had the same problem. I thought the most interesting thing about Naseer Shamma's position was that he was holding the oud at a diagonal to his body, with the neck farther from him than the bridge. When I did that, it was much easier to play and keep the oud in place. Do the more experienced players here do the same? Thanks!

Microber - 9-29-2011 at 01:21 AM

Leon,

Your daughter makes me thinking of the angels playing lutes on the fresques in the churches.

Robert

fernandraynaud - 9-29-2011 at 11:47 PM

The reason for keeping the oud parallel to the walls is so you can't see the fingerboard. This is clearly more manly and help develop character, as well as hearing and intonation.

Brian Prunka - 9-30-2011 at 10:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DaveH

I'd be interested to know what others think about this observation.

I find I can prevent a lot of wrist strain by angling the face up slightly. THis initially makes balancing the oud a little more difficult, but you work it out fairly quickly.

I think people are usually told to keep the oud face perpendicular to the floor. I even initially found it very tempting to position the instrument so that the face was pointing very slightly down towards the floor because the edge of the face then digs in to your thigh a little and stays in place more easily, rather than slipping off. The problem with this though is that if the face is pointing down slightly, or even if it's perpendicular to the floor, I need to bend my right wrist more and I tend to grip the oud rather than rest it (the mechanics are easier to test out in practice than to explain). With it pointing slightly upwards, my whole arm is more relaxed and the natural weight of the arm keeps the oud in place, rather than my having to exert muscular pressure to "hug" it to me.

Hmm... I find it to be quite the opposite; if the oud is very slightly angled down it is easier to hold without tension and and a more relaxed risha. Pointing it upwards seems to cause more problems. Not sure about the effect on sound projection, but since projection is 90% technique, anything that improves technique will be more effective at improving projection than the angle used.
Of course, this is just my experience.

jdowning - 10-1-2011 at 11:47 AM

For playing the lute I use a square of carpet underlay to help prevent slipping and to provide a cushion against the edge of the lute digging in to my left leg.
Another device that I use to cushion my right arm against the edge of the lute - useful in hot weather when wearing short sleeved clothing - is a woven, elasticated 'elbow support' available at low cost from pharmacists or sportswear suppliers. I saw an oud player using the same thing so it works for ouds as well.
It also protects the sound board edge against staining.

Also - if you happen to make a lot of mistakes when playing - you can always blame it on a temporary muscle injury of your right arm to try to evoke some sympathy from your audience!!

alidaood - 10-31-2011 at 07:17 AM

Greetings all.

Holding the oud is usually uncomfortable for the first three or four months, if you practice.

The positioning of the right hand can very depending on the technique of your teachers. My teacher taught me to to drape the arm over the edge of the oud, bending the elbow over the edge of the oud. Where your reesha makes contact with the strings will very depending the school of oud. (Egyptian style plays it closer the the bridge, and Iraqi style plays it further from the bridge.) Avoid the temptation to bend the wrist when you are using your risha. When you are trying really hard to get the tremolo or double crosch (sp?) the wrist often wants to bend to a 90 degrees, this is not good. The wrist bends a little, but is mostly straight. Its harder but allows for more natural movement.

Holding the oud so it doesn't slip is hard at first, but I didn't use any aids to keep it on my lap. You will find that when you practice a lot, it will become easier to hold. The body finds the balance point naturally, and you will forget that it was even a problem. I would avoid using aids like the carpet underlay, because you will become reliant on them.

When you are first learning the maqam fingering you will want to look at the fingerboard, my teacher said this is ok, after you know by feel and sound where your fingers should be. Then it is easier to make the face of your oud sit vertically.

Enjoy your practice.

Fernando of Sor - 11-8-2011 at 05:58 PM

I'm also completely new to playing Oud, after playing guitar for 30+ years, it's quite a change in terms of playing position. The slipping away off the leg thing is a pain, but not as bad as when I'm trying to tune it. My Oud currently requires the strength of the mighty Hercules to stop the pegs from slipping (has major issues, and is about to go for repair), this results in a sort of Charlie Chaplin routine taking place, where the Oud launches itself all over the place.
I would agree with Fernandraynaud that having the face of the Oud vertical promotes a proper approach to the fingerboard. If I angle the face of the Oud, I find it impossible to depress the strings at the lower positions properly. And, anyway if there was ever an instrument to play by ear, and feel, this is it. I initially tried looking at the fingerboard, but without frets or dot markers, it struck me as a bit pointless. I even started using the neck ornamentation as a position guide, but abandoned that as obviously a bad habit that would need to be unlearned.
At the end of the day, it's an Oud, not a guitar, which took me a while to get into my head.

fernandraynaud - 11-9-2011 at 03:51 AM

Charlie chaplin never had to do this level of contortion. To turn and push the AA pegs I have to wrap my arm behind my head or the neck or my neck or something while the oud fights back. Not sure as I try to regain some dignity and forget the whole adventure as soon as possible. If the A course is a hair out of tune I tell myself it's probably close enough, by tomorrow the whole instrument will catch up and, besides, windings will click and it won't get a lot better anyway. Another approach is "the firing squad" where you face the oud and tune that way. Very often I wish I had a tail.