mavrothis - 2-25-2009 at 10:46 AM
Hi,
Does anyone have the sheet music or a recording of this piece?
I'm researching this makam these days...
Thank you very much!
mavrothis
eliot - 2-25-2009 at 03:40 PM
I only have the Mehmet Ağa notation - I didn't know Refik Fersan had written a Selmek SS...
mavrothis - 2-25-2009 at 03:42 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he did. If anyone has it, I would really appreciate a copy.
Thanks!
m
umut - 2-27-2009 at 07:15 AM
hi mavrothis,
here is the sheet music for the saz semaii
http://www.guzelsanatlar.gov.tr/BelgeGoster.aspx?F6E10F8892433CFFE0...
if you're interested in the makam, in the link below, you can find the notes for a mevlevi (sufi) ritual fersan composed,
http://dosyalar.semazen.net/ayinnotalar/Selmek.zip
enjoy,
umut
mavrothis - 2-27-2009 at 08:24 AM
Thank you Umut!!!
You are the best!
Take care,
Mavrothis
mavrothis - 2-27-2009 at 08:56 AM
Here is the recording I have of the piece, with Udi Yorgos Bacanos and friends. 
Before, I wasn't 100% sure if this was the Refik Fersan piece, but now I can know for certain.
Thank you again Umut!
m
eliot - 2-27-2009 at 10:36 AM
Mr. M and Umut,
It seems that this Pençgah moment is pretty essential in Selmek - but Özkan doesn't mention this in his very terse description of Selmek. Özkan's
analysis of what he calls "Pençgah-ı Zaid" starts to look a lot like Selmek, although the musical example he uses doesn't look at all like his
dizisi.
What's your take on things?
-e
Masel - 2-27-2009 at 11:39 AM
Mavrothis I wrote you once an email with some questions about ottoman makamlamar and usuller but you didn't reply. I would like to learn more about
these, I don't know if can find a teacher for this in israel. If any of you would be willing to share your knowledge I'm sure I would not be the only
one to appreciate it.Would you be willing to help with short analysis of turkish maklamar? It would be a great asset. I know one website that does so
but it's all in turkish..
Thank you, Yaniv.
mavrothis - 2-27-2009 at 11:41 AM
Hi Yaniv,
I actually did reply to you, back on January 29th.
Here's what I wrote:
Hi Yaniv,
Nice to hear from you. I'm glad you like the Oud Cafe, I appreciate that. Sometimes life gets in the way of updating the makam lessons, but I am
trying to make more time for that. I think I've also come up with an efficient way of showing more ornamentation exercises, so I will try and work on
that too.
The sites I know of (there may be more I haven't seen) which show Ottoman Usuller are David Parfitt's site, and also Phaedon Sinis' site
(makamweb.com). Makamweb is still being designed/constructed, but when it is finished, it will be really something.
Parfitt's site has a lot of great information: http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/usuller.html
In case these are not enough, I highly recommend you buy this book: http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=zBK980282DN312
It is a very good reference for makamlar and usuller.
I hope this helps!
Take care,
Mavrothi Kontanis
mavrothis - 2-27-2009 at 11:50 AM
Hi Eliot,
I'm just getting exposed to this makam myself, but I see what you mean, that the Pencgah/not quite Nikriz movement is pretty important, though not as
prominent as in Pencgah.
Pencgah doesn't seem to stress Dugah note as much as Selmek, but there are definitely some close parallels going on, at least at a glance. I guess
the book is a little incomplete around Selmek (I couldn't even find it in the Table of Contents in my copy).
It's kind of, but not exactly, like how Mahur often has a pretty serious Nikriz reference in it, but then there is a whole makam based around the
Mahur-Nikriz relationship too: Zavil.
umut - 2-27-2009 at 02:01 PM
you're welcome mavrothis,
in ozkan's makam book, (mine is the 5th edition), on page 552, there's a very short description of the makam, in case you haven't seen it already.
ozkan says that selmek is a combination of rast and huseyni scales, (without transposing them - "yerinde"). he writes that selmek is essentially makam
rast with a lot of shifts to huseyni during the seyir of the piece. in this, it is the exact /symmetrical opposite of gerdaniye. (which is a,
descending, combination of huseyni and rast and ends at dugah).
the famous taksim by yorgo bacanos gives some clues as to how this combination goes:
http://www.turizm.gov.tr/Genel/medya/muzik/muzik_kulturu/osmanli/se...
i recognize though that refik fersan's saz semai has at times a different flavor (as you discuss above) i'll check and see if there's any other
description of selmek anywhere else...
u
sufi connection
MatthewW - 2-27-2009 at 02:22 PM
hello everyone- while reading this post I was especially interested in the reference to Sufi music, and some of the notes umat posted above. While
following the link to the book Mav mentions, I noticed this book on Sufi music which seems to be for the ney but I'm sure the songs would work for the
oud:
http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=MU940901DE398
I'd appreciate any feedback on this book, and any other links to notation for sufi music which can be played on oud. regards, MW
mavrothis - 2-27-2009 at 02:43 PM
Thank you Umut, that makes a lot of sense, having played through a few pieces so far. The comparison to Gerdaniye is very good, and very
interesting!
Unfortunately, my 6th Edition does not seem to have that information, so I really appreciate you mentioning it here.
I have always loved Bacanos' taksim in Selmek, but until now, I didn't really know what this makam was about. It's really nice!
Matthew, this book you've mentioned looks really nice. If it has recordings too, that perfect. Ney is a great instrument to use as a guide for your
ear.
Let us know if you get, and what you think of it.
Take care,
Mavrothis
Masel - 2-28-2009 at 03:03 PM
Mavrothis sorry I never got that email, and thank you for answering!
By the way, who is this Ozkan (I've heard this name before) and what is this book? Is it available in english?
mavrothis - 2-28-2009 at 03:20 PM
Hi Masel,
This book is a very good reference written by this author, who I suppose, is a musician and musicologist with a thorough knowledge of makamlar and
usuller.
I don't believe the book is available in English, but I don't speak much Turkish and I still find it very useful. The diagrams and examples are
mostly self explanatory, and a basic Turkish-English dictionary can help you understand most of the terms used in the descriptions.
I hope that is helpful.
Take care,
Mavrothis
eliot - 2-28-2009 at 07:00 PM
İsmail Hakkı Özkan. Türk Musikisi Nazariyatı ve Usulleri. Istanbul: Ötüken Neşriyat. (8 editions, 1984-2008).
Available at Tulumba.com (I have no affiliation with them).
A good reference work, although there are many inaccuracies, particularly in the usul section. From reading the posts on this thread and digging
deeper within the examples for some makams, it appears there are a few inaccuracies in the makam section as well... but still, it's better than
not having reference info on 150 makams!
Masel - 2-28-2009 at 10:36 PM
Thank you both. I am waiting to order two books -
walter feldman, "music of the ottoman court" (1996)
karl signell, "makam, modal practice in turkish art music" (1986)
Are they useful as well? If I have enough money should I get all three?
Arto - 3-1-2009 at 01:27 AM
I have found both books excellent - I only hope that I would have more self-discipline to really study them... Feldman´s book is dedicated to the
earlier Ottoman music, but he makes many connection also to the later repertoire. How I´d love to have a book about "later" Turkish classical music
by him, for example around 1780-1920, but such a book doesn´t exist... I have Owen Wright´s books about Cantemir, too, but Feldman seems much more
interesting and useful to me. You´ll really enjoy both books, I´m sure.
(I don´t really understand much about makam systems, I´m a total beginner, but really like those two books.)
Arto
mavrothis - 3-1-2009 at 09:18 AM
Hey,
I just want make a note that the Son Pesrev and Son Yuruk in the packet Umut shared with us are actually in Segah, not Selmek (both are on one
page).
They must have snuck in there by accident - they are very nice pieces. The other ones definitely seem to be Selmek.
Thanks again Umut!
Masel, I think all three books should be very good and helpful to you.
Take care,
m
umut - 3-1-2009 at 01:34 PM
hi mavrothis (and others),
i just checked the notes... you're right, the son peshrev is segah, which is actually the first hane of neyzen yusuf pasa's segah pesrev. i know that
transitions from makam to makam is common in mevlevi pieces and so is using another composer's piece as part of a larger mevlevi ritual music. (son
-last- yuruk semai is also segah).
about the makam books, signell and feldman... i think both are great books. feldman's book, though may at times be more advanced. it is more than a
book on makam, but rather a book on the social and historical aspects of earlier ottoman court music. even though he has a large section on makam, it
is mostly about the makam system of the pre 1800 era. feldman's book is fascinating though as a work of ethnomusicology and history of music.
signell's book, on the other hand, would be a better resource if one wants to learn the makam system. it is more focused on what he calls "model
practice in turkish art music". i find it to be one of the best sources in english on makam system in turkish music.
umut
adamgood - 3-7-2009 at 05:19 PM
Hmm this is interesting, compare some of the tastes in the Selmek repertoire to those in Suzidilara:
http://www.adamgood.com/turkish_nota/piece.php?id=1993&size=494
I'm betting there's a logical connection between the two but then again I don't know anything about Suzidilara. Check it out though, you'll see what I
mean.
I also notice that neither Selmek or Suzidilara seem to use Ussak cesni in the obvious way that one needs to use in order to show Rast.
adam