Mike's Oud Forums

POST COLONIAL "arabic" music & culture

Edward Powell - 3-9-2009 at 12:34 AM

...perhaps opening up a topic that nobody really wants to talk about of look at? But, I feel, for those of us who love oud and oud music - we better get busy and face the reality of the situation.

First of all, this "oud community" found here at Mike's, is only a fleeting "virtual reflection" of a great music which existed in the past. When reading this forum and visiting youtube etc. we are left with the impression that oud and it's native music are alive and well in the world today.

Well, I am sorry to tell you folks, but after 3 months living in the heart of Cairo - this is far from the true reality according to the "facts on the ground".

So.... what happened? Where did the oud's native music disappear to? ...or how is it that it has changed into something unrecognisable and at the same time retained it's original name?!

This is my take on it, it's called "post-colonisation".

I think that partly nobody wants to talk about this or even look at it because in truth it is very embarrassing for both Arabs and the colonisers. In school when I was beaten up in the playground, I wanted myself and everyone else to completely forget the incident as soon as possible, and therefore ignored all future reference to the incident.

If I can use the playground analogy to explain how I see the situation call Post-Colonisation". If we are on the school playground (or the 'global playground') and the new Bully comes over to me and beats me up --- what will be the result of that? For sure, secretly I will probably forever hate him but I will also always respect him because he proved that he was stronger than I. Now, if I later notice that this Bully is also living a pretty comfortable lifestyle, maybe has a really nice new car, beautiful cloths, going to partys and having sexy girlfriends etc etc etc... then I compare how he is living to my own level... then for sure I am going to start respecting him even more and even try to copy his way of doing things.

In my opinion this is exactly what has happened in the Arab world. British, French, and American Bullies came around and beat up the Arabs. Then propogated the idea that Western lifestyle is the best. So Arabs, although secretly resenting the West, began to greatly respect their conquerors and consequently copy unquestioningly everything about Western culture except religion.

But we know that even if certain ideas and ways of doing things work well in a particular socio-geographic-ecomonic situation, it does not mean that those same ideas will work equally well in a totally different part of the world. A plant which evolves and develops in England, suddenly uprooted and planted in the Sahara will not fare very well for very long.

The last wave of colonisation experienced by the Arabs not only came from a source which was culturally VERY far away (unlike the Ottomans, Persian, and Greek rulers of the past who shared a strong cultural link with the Arabs), but this colonial period came to an "end" very suddenly. The result was a cultural shock for the region of unprecidented and dramatic proportion.

Arabs were forced to make far-reaching cultural, political, and ecomonic policy decisions very suddenly without first having time to breathe and to reflect. Being an oppressed people they currently lacked the educated brain power to think it thru and act in their own best interested.... in fact, all they know was how their colonisers had done things so there seemed no choice but to continue in the same mold. And furthermore, this seemed most desirable considering the power and high living standard boasted by the West.

Cars and highways are not something belonging to Arab culture, and I can tell you that they have utterly ruined Egyptian cities. I was just in Alexandria ("beautiful Alex"), and yes, it must have been beautiful at one time.... but now... well, if you don't mind the incredible noise and pollution and ugliness of the omnipresent automobile, then you may like it there.

Not even talking about music, Egyptian culture has been twisted out of recognision - just walk down any street in Cairo and try to imagine how the same street looked 100 years before! You will not even find one single public park in Cairo - the concept doesn't exist. Yes, you can find beautiful green parks in ALL Western cities - - now doesn't this prove that Arabs have taken the worst from the West, and ignored to best things?



I lay my words wide open to critisism:) fire away:buttrock:

danieletarab - 3-9-2009 at 10:10 AM

Thank you for your post Edward..
I agree with you and I always think of what you said when I get involved into "philologiacl" discussions about traditional music.
I play "folk" and "medieval" sicilian music myself, and I realize day by day that this music lost its main feature: it's not popoluar anymore. What I want to say is that while I'm searching for old sicilian tunes, my parents care just about italian pop songs from 60s and 70s, and I have to teach them the songs that they were supposed to sing when they were young!
Sicily, as well as arabic countries passed through a very quick and shocking colonialism (even thought it was mainly a cultural colonialism), and from the poor and rural country it was, it had to become a european country in few years with the result that now when you come in Sicily you don't understand if you are in europe or in North Africa.

Lots of musicians here re-arrange old sicilian tunes in an "arabic" style, since the arabic domination has been very strong in Sicily and oud and ney were very common and widely used instruments.
But obviously, this is just an intellectual way to approach music.
When you play traditional stuff, you don't play for the folks, for the people, but just for some intellectuals of the middle-high class. People from the countryside want to hear just italian pop songs.

And the same thing happens in arabic countries, where a terrible "arabic pop" (which mix togheter the worst sides of arabic and western music) took the place of traditional or maqam art music.
Here it's the same.. Sicilians shop owners call their shops (broadway, Las Vegas, House of shoes, american pub etc..), the 99 per cent of young musicians play rock from Engalnd or USA, and the only italian music that becomes famous is usually copied from english or american pop.

We are tring to keep alive something that is completely dead, and we have to accept that what we are doing, it's not going to change anything, but it is just a warm blanket for our poor poetical mind that still dreams of ancient times, purity of music, ancestral sounds.

Arabians have been beaten up, sicilians have been beaten up, we have been beaten up.
Now we have 2 choihes: following the winner (in that case we could sell our beautiful ouds to buy a nice midi electrical guitar!), or keep on living our dream despite of all..

The positive thing is that there are always more and more people that are getting fed up with modern music (heavy drums, electronic, lots of sounds, keyboards, overdrive guitars etc), and they are looking for something more authentical, something whose meaning stands in History.

Thanks again for your intresting post, and may the sound of oud never leave this world!

daniele

Edward Powell - 3-9-2009 at 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by danieletarab
We are tring to keep alive something that is completely dead, and we have to accept that what we are doing, it's not going to change anything, but it is just a warm blanket for our poor poetical mind that still dreams of ancient times, purity of music, ancestral sounds.

Arabians have been beaten up, sicilians have been beaten up, we have been beaten up.
Now we have 2 choihes: following the winner (in that case we could sell our beautiful ouds to buy a nice midi electrical guitar!), or keep on living our dream despite of all..

The positive thing is that there are always more and more people that are getting fed up with modern music (heavy drums, electronic, lots of sounds, keyboards, overdrive guitars etc), and they are looking for something more authentical, something whose meaning stands in History.

Thanks again for your intresting post, and may the sound of oud never leave this world!

daniele


Very very well said Daniele!

Yes, the one thing that nobody can take away from us is our dreams.

However I do apologise for being negative minded - partly it is the cumulative stress of being in Cairo for 3 month without a break... I have not had one short breath of fresh air in almost 3 months.

I think there is a great value in discussing these issues (but to a point of course), and raising awareness.

I guess I have always been at a point of acceptance that Art music is almost always simply for a very small and select audience. Of course there have been exceptions to this - for example in various forms of Art music which had perhaps just a touch of pop influence that made it into the big time. Om Kalsoum herself is an example of this. Or in the West, prog.rock groups like YES. ...and of course not all pop music has been bad. The Beatles for example gave us really great music, which of course was very much pop.

Anyway, as long as we are alive, and there are people like us who really care about quality in music, then there is still hope - and nobody can take our dreams and our values away from us :xtreme:

Christian1095 - 3-11-2009 at 10:07 AM

I think you lay too much at the feet of Western Oppressors.... Speaking only of music.....

Empty souless, techno crappy music is extremely popular EVERYWHERE.... If you listen to pop radio in ANY country... you'll mostly hear bad music.

For the folks on this board, we all got into the oud not because we heard it on a pop song, but because we heard the sounds the instrument make and are touched by it.... But this is the same for guitar as well.... If you go to an accoustic guitar board, chances are they're not asking eachother for the notes to pop songs... Same here... For the most part, music is kept alive by musicians.... I think that as musicians, we'll invest our efforts into making music that we find has value... and that is where things are alive and well....

But, if we're using music as a reflection of cultural values, then we're in a cultural mess across the board... cause there are very few songs out there that are popular to the masses that I really dig... and my musical tastes are pretty varied.

But using this as another example of how "Western Influence" has ruined the culture of Egypt is false logic in my opinion.... Popular music sucks just about everywhere... and as musician's we're better able to hear it sucking as opposed to mindlessly bobbing our heads in tune with the music.... That makes us more sensative to the badness of modern pop.... And while there may be something to the ideas you present around colonialism... I think that's a topic for another forum... But music-wise - I think Egypt is just a victem of the same thing the US is... the masses like crappy music....

Edward Powell - 3-11-2009 at 02:37 PM

All very very good points Chris.

Very likely I have a resentment against Western colonialists, and use the "pop music issue" to channel my anger against them...

Being in the heart of Cairo for 3 months puts you face to face with a lot of things to feel frustrated about... however, I would not trade this experience!

fhydan - 3-13-2009 at 11:21 PM

I think what you say about music is correct to a degree. Popular arabic music nowadays is trash, I would not even listen to it. Arabic music maybe slowly losing its soul, but I don't think it is at that stage yet. But then, you seem to really know what you talk about with regards to music and I think in the other post you mentioned going to classical music symphonies there and had acquired that impression.
However, I disagree with you broadening that to all culture...
Quote:
Arabs in general don't know who they are anymore.[\quote]
This would have given me a terrible impression about you if you hadn't mentioned you were visiting Cairo for some months on a forum all about ouds and their music. It sounds to me like you are disappointed that your experience was not as "exotically beautiful" as you had expected it to be. I may be judging you by your post by saying that, but so were you judging my culture from a few months in a country I've never been to. Just because the arabs you encountered in egypt are not the arabs you were imagining on your flight to cairo doesn't mean they don't know who they are, it just means that you didn't.

Yes, I wish that we had the time to slowly adopt to all the changes in the world in a way that retained the beauty of the past, but that wasn't the case. This doesn't mean we lost our culture. I've never been to egypt, and I'm sure what you said about Alexandria being a noisy metropolis is true. That doesn't mean it lost it's culture, only the touristic shallow shell.

I'm sure you don't mean it, but that comment just reeks of orientalism and it bothers me.


Oh and, how many streets do you know looked the same a hundred years ago?

Edward Powell - 3-14-2009 at 12:16 AM

Yes, I knew when I wrote that comment that I was 'going too far', but in fact I left it in in order to provoke a little bit in the hope of getting a good discussion going.

It is a GROSS overgeneralization, and I apologise - however, to a large degree, I still believe there is a lot of truth in that statement - HOWEVER, what I neglected to add is that IT IS NOT ONLY ARABS who don't know who they are anymore... in fact, it would have been just/or more accurate to say that HUMANS don't know who they are anymore.

Afterall, does a Canadian know who he is more than an Arab??? ...definitely not! Even less! Does a North American person think daily about the genocide committed by his forefathers against the native indians?

Globalisation has had a profound effect on the worlds indiginous cultures. On the one hand, in general - in terms of 'facts on the ground' and mass/pop culture, globalisation is simply destroying (in-directly of course) localism in all forms of culture.

But on a more positive note, globalisation has transformed the FACE of culture. It is weird, really! In Egypt literally nobody cares at all about oud..... but look now at the internet, this forum, youtube etc etc etc and the free availability of oud culture (for example) is staggering, therefore a tiny community like ours, of oud fans scattered around the entire planet can exist, thrive, and keep that culture alive.

So maybe it is enough just to say that Arab music culture is CHANGING dramatically, and perhaps my disappointment is a result simply of my expectations - and I was expecting to find something different that what I found.

But getting back to the original point of this thread - it does seem to me that Arab music lost much more than, for example Indian music. Indian music is just now caming out of a GOLDEN ERA which seemed to have begun AFTER independence. ---they did not lose their original music.

Of course Arab music also experienced a golden era just after independence - the OUM KALSOUM era... but someone recently mentioned that it was during the O.k. era that things started going wonky - and this went unnoticed because of O.K.'S stature (adding tons of violins and making the tunes a bit more poppy etc).

I have spend 5 years in India, and about 2.5 years in the middle-east/northafrica, and my overwhelming impression is simply this:
-
Indian culture has remain more strongly intact simply because it is geographically further away from Europe and America.
-
Whenever i have been in the M.E./N.Africa I can FEEEEEEEEEL everywhere how close Europe is. Europe is simply very very close, and therefore it's culture influence (positive or negative) has been profound.

----

again, these are only my current opinions, subject to revision at anytime. All of the above is wide open to critisism - THANKS

fhydan - 3-14-2009 at 12:36 AM

Well, you certainly provoked this one. :)

Yeah, I was actually just reading that other post and listening to all the dawr recordings, wonderful things.

On a more serious note, though. I've only been reading this board for about a day and it seems like there is this shared notion of music degenerating from more complex forms and maqams towards a haifa wahbe kind of dystopia.

If you'd like to see an Arabic culture that has its own rich musical tradition and is much less westernized than northern africa I'd recommend looking into yemen. I don't have the musical background to tell you how but I can always tell the difference between yemeni or arabian(meaning the arabian peninsula) and music from northern africa and the laveant which are very rich in their own but are quite different. I can sometimes often hear turkish elements in egyptian music, french in lebanese music. I've been told that our music(the peninsula) has some indian and persian influences in it, but I haven't listened to enough of either of those traditions to spot the similarities.

fhydan - 3-14-2009 at 12:40 AM

Oh and you may want to look into sudan for the fun of it. Sudan has its own musical tradition that sounds like no other 'Arab' music. I don't know much about the sudanese music except that it is pentatonic (sp?)

Edward Powell - 3-14-2009 at 12:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fhydan

However, I disagree with you broadening that to all culture...


In fact, this is off the original topic somewhat, but I must say very strongly that this loss of culture is very very strongly felt in all areas, not only music.

I have had contact with many egyptians from various levels of society, and one thing is STRIKINGLY CLEAR, is that they embrace the MODERN INDUSTRIAL MATERIALISTIC DREAM unquestioningly! Their idea of success and getting ahead is unwaveringly based on getting a high paying job (doesn't matter at all if it is in an extremely polluting industry), and owning a new car.

sorry to sound cynical, but it is clear that the VAST majority of egyptians are mostly interested in money, cars, and pop culture. In fact, you only need to walk anywhere in cairo for 2 minutes and this fact is totally obvious. There is absolutely no care or consideration for the natural environment. In a city of 25 million people there are NO public parks (ok, someone mentioned to me there are a few patches of grass in alahzer park?). No pollution control on vehicles. Every water-side walkway has an enormous road just beside. . . and very highly educated egyptians are beeming with pride at how BEAUTIFUL the seaside walk in alexandria is!!!!?

I truly apologise if what I am saying offends anyone, I do not mean it that way ---- but I like to think of myself as person who tries not to hide his head in the sand --- CAIRO IS AN ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER AREA, PERIOD! ...on the other hand I LOVE IT! but the cars, traffic, and TOTAL (!!!!!) environmental disregard have completely ruined the place. If you don't agree, then come here and have a smell for yourself. Just walk out the door and count how many cars you see! The situation is just totally absurd, but we humans now have become so totally accustomed to cars, pollution, noise, and utter lack of vegatation and fresh air/water that we don't even notice anymore.

.....or, maybe they are noticing - but what is the REACTION? When I asked my good friend here why she just bought a new car, she said that it is impossible to walk anywhere anymore in Cairo because there are too many cars and too much pollution.... so therefore it is NECESSARY to have your own car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????

Islam is still strong here, but the REAL God is the car. Is the "car" a part of Arab Culture??

NO!

Edward Powell - 3-14-2009 at 01:15 AM

YES! Yemen (and Sudan)

In fact I was just over at Antar's place and we were listening to yemenese oud.

Actually, at first I was explaining to him some differences between Ragas and Makams and saying that in makams generally you have 7 note 'scales' and you play up and down and do not need to "leap-frog" over any notes. However in many ragas, you must do this leapfrogging, and in general have to pay attention to particular specific ascending and descending orders of notes.

One common raga form (found in for eg. ragas bhim palasi, multani, madhuvanti, desh, jhinjhoti and many others) is 5 notes up and 7 notes down. When I mentioned to Antar that this doesn't exist in makam, he screamed and said that it DOES EXIST in Yemenese makam!

We then listened to some Yemenese oud music and sure enough they were playing Bayati 5 notes up and 7 down... Antar said that he thinks that they got this idea actually from Indian music. It is beautiful and totally unique - to me sort of halfway between the fully pentatonic style of Sudan, and the 7 note "Arab" style.

Funny how what we "expect" tends to often be the opposite. I had alway expect yemenese music to be not the REAL Arab music, and that REAL Arab music would only be found in Cairo..... I think, as you mention, the total opposite is probably the real truth. ---and looking at the map, yes, yemen is just hidden way down there under everything - - -

fhydan - 3-14-2009 at 01:38 PM

The yemeni musical tradition is indeed very unique and really old. I don't know about calling it anymore real arab than say the egyptian one. They're all just as 'arab', I would think, except that the egyptian is much more influenced by Turkish music. Arab music is actually pretty diverse in the sense that calling any one tradition as the REAL stuff is, I believe, misleading. This may sound to be political-correct crap, but listen to Iraqi music and then to sudanese music both of which are arab and try to find anything shared between them!

If you'r still looking for musical forms that are arabic and rather different than the turkish school of music that you, you might want to look into music from the gulf as well. Musical theory over there is not refined at all and it is as far as I know a mostly oral tradition in terms of learning. I hear the same maqams in egyptian or even turkish music, but the way they are used is completely different. For example, huzam sounds really different, so does bayat, and to a lesser degree rast. Nahawand is much less commonly used traditionally, so is kurd. I've never heard anyone play ajam except for one yemeni oudist.

If you want a more expressive system in terms of being 'refined' and 'complicated', then I'd suggest iraqi music. I don't know much about it, but it has its own maqams as well as somethings called maqams but are not exactly the same as what we may call maqams.

Edward Powell - 3-14-2009 at 01:52 PM

Thank you for these inspiring thoughts and suggestions!

...then there is always Azeri "mugham"... and even Persian - - - -....... there really is SO much left. We must preserve it all!

Christian1095 - 3-16-2009 at 11:39 AM

CAIRO IS AN ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER AREA, PERIOD!

When was the last time you were in Philidelphia? :))

II was there in Cairo in 88' and it was a noisy crowded city. At the time I was living in Naples Italy, which was, and still is, a noisy, crowded city. Also, realize that cities in NA tend to be a lot more spread out... There were no real parks in Naples either... but here in Charlotte, they're everywhere.... Also, in NYC, other than Central park, how many parks are there? (I honestly don't know... )

I think the broader issue is around how a government chooses to allocate it's resources.... It's hard to think about parks and what not when you have a larger issue of unemployment, economic stability, etc.... This pain will be a lot more noticable in Cairo than in Hamburg or London since the economic problems are of different scales.

------------------------------------------
In terms of music, I really like what little music I've heard from the Sudan... Mostly Hamza el Din.... so if you have any other artists I should look up, please share.... Also, who are some good oud players from Yemen?
-------------------------------------------

One of the things that has struck me is that I don't hear a lot of Oud in popular music.... But on the board it's alive and well.... From my own perspective, I think it's changing to something more primal.... For example, there's all this synth music out there that most of us think is trash... but I would be curious as to how many of us play in groups with a keyboard player in our group? And how central is the role of the oud in our ensembles.... I would imagine the role is pretty important.... and most of us aren't too keen on a keyboard....

In your travels in Egypt... what do the oud players there do? Is it taqsim performances, or are they playing in small accoustic groups... From my perspective, a half a world away and only connected by the internet, I see the oud as part of a sort of 'folk rock' movement away from the synth music -- but getting back to the roots....

For me, that's the music I want to make... so no synth for me... just give me the raw accoustic tunes with a little bit of guitar or violin thrown in.... but then again, I live in North Carolina, USA -- so I realize that my experiance will be far removed from many others.... That being said, I look at what we as a group are doing and it spans from jazz ensembles, to small groups playing folk music (like Marina) and I see it alive and well... But I listen to pop music and even though I don't hear the oud, I wonder what it would sound like 'unplugged' -- once my skill level is there I will be curious to try it out and integrate it... but for now, I'm just trying to learn the instrument and not butcher the maqams....

So, for me, my 'vision' of where the oud fits in with ME music would be most similar to how the Grateful Dead, Phish, and Rusted Root fits in with popular Western music..... I don't see it as being mainstream... but I do see it having a place.

Edward Powell - 3-16-2009 at 02:57 PM

unfortunately there are no small groups (good ones) focused around oud --- and there are no solo oud concerts (very very little of this going on in Cairo).

There are a lot of these sort of "Egyptian Songs" groups - and there is some oud used.

Also there are the standard sort of "State Ensembles" playing post-colonial-style Arab classical... and might hear the occational taksim.

But really serious small ensemble - high musicianship - art music groups I have not seen here. Quite a disappointment.

But still it has been a great trip because there is still enough oud going on here - and combined with the ENORMOUS amount available on youtube - I can sort of fill in the missing pieces of the puzzel quite well this way.

Funny, the way life is always 50/50... somehow a balance is always maintained - - - for example, and the availablilty of oud music "on the ground" dries up, the availablility on the Internet skyrockets!

SamirCanada - 3-16-2009 at 06:22 PM

While your in Cairo...

try and get in touch with the Al-Oyoun guys...

They are a band/taqht who played with Naseer Shamma on his CD Hilal.
Hany el-Badry is the nay player there perhaps Mohamed knows him. He is one of the most amazing nay players I have ever heard and he was really friendly to when I met him in montreal 2 years ago.

anyways these guys played the real stuff at that concert even though they accompanied Naseer they were playing classical arabic and egyptian music in a brilliant way.

frao - 3-17-2009 at 05:31 AM

it's an interesting topic you brought up here.

it's really difficult to understand how colonialism works but i think it's rather shallow to state that locals simply see something that is 'better' (shiny cars, sexy girls, all in all Power). what is 'betterness' is a relative concept given that it can not be autonomous from the sphere of everyday life that locals inhabit.

the colonized communities are first deprived of their means of living by imposing a new objective reality that no subject can escape. what is this objective reality (surely constituted by a multitude of subjects) is really difficult to say. the fact is that it deprives people of what they are and gives them identities to cling to. for instance, in case of musicians, before colonialism (that works on both colonized and colonizer countries) musician was someone who plays music. that's it - a given person is called-musician because of his gestures, because of what he does. in the colonized space a given person is no longer a musician but a person that is seen as a musician, someone with an identity of a musician. a given person works an ordinary job and is a musician in spare time, thus he is not a musician and music is his hobby. the other given person is a professional musician and works as a musician, thus he is not a musician and music is his job. music, just like everything else, is incorporated into the logic of the colonizer culture and is seen not as a fact, not as a gesture among people, bus as a new kind of identity. there is a whole lot of music as a commodity and no musicians at all.
perhaps there is another situation that would illustrate the same condition more clearly. take the listeners. what is music in the community? it is something that is shared with the people around, with the people present. how could any of those people say that he or she 'listens' to this or that type of music in a sense in which we use the word ('i listen to sharqi music', 'i listen to rock', etc)? it's only when music is turned into a commodity people have a choice to 'listen' to this or that type of music. however, no-one has a choice to hear it as a gesture among people who are present.

and what does the beating up mean? the new objective order is nothing but economy. politics of oiconomia. culture of oiconomia. and society of oiconomia, which for the first time becomes that which it is called by - a mass of people connected to one unitary order of Things. however, Cargo Cult is nothing universal thus communities have a certain immunity for things that are imposed of them. this situation requires thousands of ways in which individuals are incorporated into the new systems. i have been trying to figure out what connects all those people to the systems of colonization that are so harmful in possibly any way imaginable. my hypothesis is that the colonizer system is based on insecurity, on making individuals feel insecure in any way possible. that is why people are deprived of traditional ways of dealing with illnesses, hunger, shelter and so on. by this communities are forced to accept security by the sovereign colonizer. what does music have to do with all that? music is 'culture', that is a psychical tie with the world and it's affections. in words of marilyn monroe (left in her suicide note), "culture is the worst commodity of all - it is the one that makes you buy all the others". on the other side of the spectre, communities do have immunity for all that is being imposed by power. the present 'social' condition in almost any country in the world clearly reveals this fact.

i think it's rather meaningless to search for 'authenticity' because there is no such thing in a culture that is based on the fact that nothing is authentic. however, there are un-colonized spaces almost anywhere. what i call un-colonized space could also be called community, or sharing. it happens everywhere where people are present to share their music with others without falling into the claws of commodity. for it does happen, for sure. the thing is that one can not look for something authentic in a traditional sense. there is nothing that escapes present reality that is irrepairable. that is why there might be techno freaks in the streets collaborating with oudists or traditional singers. it might be the only thing that is authentic in a post-modern (or even post-post-modern) sense.

i personally seek this presence. i try to find a way to share the music with the people who are present. however, i am myself nothing but an example of this post-modern condition. i come from a background that has nothing to do with ouds. but in this de-localized era probably there rarely is any cultural background (at least not in the 'west'). what matters much more, i think, is not authenticity of the sound, but the authenticity of presence, of being with ourselves and being with others.

music, just like any other gesture, is an endless becoming. one can not preserve culture because it is not to be preserved. it's always in a state of becoming something else and that happens through playing, singing and hearing. there is no way to 'save' that which is left for us from the past. you can only play it.

tell me what you think.

charlie oud - 3-17-2009 at 07:45 AM

Hey Ed,

Two ladies come to mind, 1) your fellow country woman and fine singer, Joni Mitchell; "They've paved paradise, and put up a paking lot"........." They took all the trees and put em in a tree museum" etc.......With her song "Big yellow taxi" she was telling a part of your story back in the 60's.

2) The other lady who comes to mind is an ex monarch of my own realm, Queen Victoria. I am refering to your comment on the stability of Indian music in its homelands. You may be aware that Victoria named India Her/our "Jewell in the Crown" of the British Empire, such was her admiration for the people and culture of this land. Yes, they fought us on and off and we could have done a better job of the transition to their independance, but there still exists a unique and special relationship between Great Britain and India, one of genuine mutual respect. Especially culturally, and Indian culture flourishes here in our Indian ethnic communities.

Now, regarding the demise of the oud. Its not the ouds fault. I believe it is a problem with Arabic music. Its so formulaic with its "seyirs" and it's stuffy rules, its do's and dont's. How many more times do we have to hear people debate what is and is'nt a "real" Nahawand, bayati or any other. Its Arabic music's overly self righteous view of itself which is making the oud an uncool option for someone who wants to make music. Especially musicians who believe in the true spirit of improvisation.
For a would be musician the gutiar is far more attractive because the whole world and its many cultures say to that person, " Its ok you can play whatever you like on your guitar". Where as with the oud you are immediately under pressure to play this way or that way, self proclaimed experts appear and start saying what's right and what's not, what's good, what's bad. It is absurd.

Cairo sounds bloody awful.

Edward Powell - 3-17-2009 at 07:54 AM

Yes, there is a big irony here: "trying to SAVE a particular music"... when in fact the very nature of an "alive/present" music is the fact that it is always growing/changing/developing/evolving.

In fact it is the listeners choice - if he/she doesn't enjoy the new way that that music has "evolved", then he doesn't need to listen to that anymore. It has no sense to complain about what can't be changed.

Furthermore, if I don't like how a particular music has changed, then I am free to play that music in the way I feel it would be better played --- in fact I think that this is my duty as a musician. Perhaps this is the constant job of the musician, to try our best to 'lead' the music in a direction that we feel has value.

charlie oud - 3-17-2009 at 08:18 AM

Bravo Ed,

Now get yourself home mate, take your sitar for a trip to the rockies, sit in front of a glorious sunset, breathe some fresh air and play what you see, re-connect with the "natural" world, that freedom. Its funny you know, when I play my sarod I feel in touch with the earth. I want to feel that way with my oud too.C

Edward Powell - 3-17-2009 at 08:49 AM

Funny you should mention this... my partner and I want to go to the mountains of BC this summer for some serious nature questing - - - and she always wants me to play the sitar... :) She says that the sound of sitar opens her heart :rolleyes:

charlie oud - 3-17-2009 at 10:19 AM

Hey Frao,

Thats a fine piece you contributed to this thread. Am I correct in assuming you are familiar with the works of any of the following existential philosophers: Simone de Beauvoir, Merleau-Ponty , Albert Camus, Kierkergaard, Martin Hiedeggar, Jean-Paul Satre.

The only reason I ask is because some of the material in your post is reminiscent of Existentialist thought. Camus' paper, "An authentic way of being oneself", comes to mind.

Either way, it is true that an individual exists in a constant state of becoming which places a percieved reality at the centre of this individual's understanding. Culture (therefore music) reflects or challenges this understanding. This is why it is not possible to preserve culture, because preservation requires a static state and it would not be culture if it did'nt evolve continually with the becoming person.

Preserve onions, eggs, ouds, or anything else which is not subject to percieved reality only. We can agree on an ojective reality for an onion or an egg.

Charlie.

Edward Powell - 3-17-2009 at 10:23 AM

....yes, and hense the death of music from comoditization.

Christian1095 - 3-17-2009 at 11:05 AM

But the cool thing is that all this connectivity has opened up VAST resources for those of us who have a passion for the instrument, but little or no outlet.... We've got mountains in North Carolina... but not very many Oud players.... That is why forums like this one are such a blessing. MikeOuds has opened up a whole new world for me and I suspect many others...

frao - 3-17-2009 at 12:39 PM

charlie: you might be right that i know all those names. it's a shame how fast we start communicating in codes/names. actually what i had in mind was Agamben's notes on community that have much to do with Heidegger. that is, paying attention not to what of things but to how of things. but i say this not of an academic interest. what i'm worried about is not whether one or another culture is going to stay or fade away (this has been happening since the first cultures, from folk to written). what i'm truly worried about is whether cultures are going to <u>happen</u>. by using this word i mean taking place of cultural elements inside the space that belongs to this or that culture.

charlie oud - 3-18-2009 at 12:38 AM

Agamben, yes. I'm not that familiar with his work but am aware of some of his themes. I understand your concern over the "happening" of culture. Culture as action. Maybe we can take some comfort from Agamben's notion of our existence consisting as "the possible" and "the potential". Now, if we can view "culture", the "happening", as we can view human existence as "happening", or to use Agamben, as the action of "possibility" and "potentiality", then it becomes highly unlikely that culture can cease to happen as there is no motionless state available to it. C

:wavey:

frao - 3-18-2009 at 02:05 AM

i'm afraid there is a motionless state given to almost anything in the colonizer oicono-culture. anything that falls into the colonizer (aka spectacle aka simulacra aka whateveryouwannacallit) framework is doomed to become its own representation. then the culture dies and we simply watch it convulse and call it liveliness.
i hope there are people from the middle east who don't understand anything of what we're talking about. because this would mean that there are things happening there. cause i know there are (that's why i'm leaving 'the west' (why do we keep referring to the colonizer like that? do we still believe the earth is flat?)). anyhow, in the face of shiny cars, skyscrapers and high-tech despair those who still share their music with their neighbors/families/friends in a communicative way will eventually find themselves in the underground of the metropolis. cause anything that is communicative, anything that is happening goes underground in the current framework.

p.s. one of Agamben's main notions is that we deprive ourselves of the potential.

however, culture is not autonomous, dead and cold gadget. it happens, thus make it happen, do it. i suppose it's rather useless to complain that there is no culture. it takes place the second you start it.

Edward Powell - 3-18-2009 at 03:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by frao

...anything that is communicative, anything that is happening goes underground in the current framework.


UNDERGROUND... yes...

londonoudi - 3-19-2009 at 06:53 PM

Some really true stuff in your posts Ed.

'Islam is strong yet the real God is the Car'; is this the real problem? People worshipping money.

It is sad.

The important thing - what is the way forward? (I am sorry if I have missed the solution in another post).

Edward Powell - 3-20-2009 at 02:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by londonoudi
Some really true stuff in your posts Ed.

'Islam is strong yet the real God is the Car'; is this the real problem? People worshipping money.

It is sad.

The important thing - what is the way forward? (I am sorry if I have missed the solution in another post).


Please watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8527248226048886347
It is made very lightly and easy/entertaining to watch and follow... it is a MUST see.

What she suggests here is that currently the world's richest entities are not anymore Governments, but Corporations - 49/51... I believe the corporations own more than 51% of everything, even 51% is enough to dramatically change the global "landscape" for the worse.

At least Governments are supposed to acting on the Peoples' behalf, but Corporations?? They only are expected to answer to their shareholders, and the only thing the shareholders want is financial profit. Therefore at the present moment in our world the most important consideration (practically the ONLY consideration) for those who hold power, is FINANCIAL GAIN.

Keeping this in mind, it is easy to understand how humanity has become so inhumane.

WFBustard - 3-20-2009 at 07:51 PM

The ship survived
storm passed
sun rises and sets
over stilled winds
changing tides,
becalmed-
she bobs, the crew wrestles in their hammocks, as before, dreaming, all may be lost.

Interesting topic but I couldnt think of much to say so I wrote a poem-

I think the world anyway one perceives it is truly a wonder.

oudemir - 3-20-2009 at 11:41 PM

WFBustard - Thanks for the inspired work!

Edward - You raise a unanimously perceived concern amongst ethnomusicologists, anthropologists, musicians and, really, the diminishing number of people who care about culture; the imminent disappearance and dissolution of indigenous musical traditions (which are anachronistically being subsumed, largely by "western" aka colonial musical traditions) threatens the direction of currently developing culture. Old tunings, melodies, rhythms, techniques, and perhaps most importantly, the understandings of what they all mean in context, are dying out faster than they can be documented!

Even some world/fusion/eclectic music paves over some of the finer details of the culture(s) it indubitably honors and draws from. e.g. "Let's take that cool sounding hocketing "clip" and put it over that "groove" you programmed earlier." And then the next generation "buys that cd/mp3 album instead of researching Pygmy culture.

But is this inexorable trend a "bad" phenomena? Can it be stopped? Should it? Maybe it's westernization. Human nature? Maybe it is just the tip of the iceberg that melting into the tepid body of chaos theory. Entropy?

Thus I divulge er, diverge.

Sorry for the long post, but this one hits close to home.

Butrous - 3-21-2009 at 04:33 AM

Edward,

Alsiadi, a Phd student and instructor at Rutgers, is teaching a course titled "Introduction to Arab Music" this semester. His students are posting questions and comments to issues that concern you on the Forum page of alsiadi.com under the heading "Introduction to Arab Music".

He also has Maqamat and Music Scores pages which plays music notation using the real Aleppian maqamat as taught by Nadim Darwish the son of the musician composer Ali Darwish.

You can see his oud taqasim on youtube.com on the channel "rastsol".

jaron - 3-21-2009 at 06:18 AM

Is it possible we're worrying too much? There are frequent occasions in cultural history when cultural memory travels afar before revisiting old haunts. For instance, the "West" forgot its classical heritage for centuries. It was remembered, however, by Arabic scholars. And then it traveled back to Christendom. Who is to say that the legacy of the ancient Greeks has only one home?

When I visit some Asian countries like Korea, I find that they are doing more to keep European classical music alive than the Europeans are- and meanwhile I show up playing ajaeng, which is an instrument almost no one in Korea thinks about these days.

The oud is on a journey around the world. We who love it give it shelter where it roams.

Edward Powell - 3-22-2009 at 04:37 AM

Well for sure, the bottom line is to DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT!

oudemir - 3-22-2009 at 11:43 AM

Yes! And we must be sure to document in a way that does justice to what we are documenting! Simply recording a performance does not capture the tradition and reasoning a performer is guided by. We must know what questions to ask, how to ask them, and how to interpret/ relay the responses. It is essential to tune our information filters to what is relevant within the system or culture we are studying. This is part of the insider/outsider dilemma in ethnomusicology.

Judging from your posts Edward, you have had/continue to have sufficiently rich immersion in arabic music culture; you seem to have the "insider" perspective. That perspective is absolutely essential for the integrity of cultural studies and documentation. You seem to be, among too few I am certain, a passionate ambassador of the oud tradition. What, if I may ask, inspires your passion?

Edward Powell - 3-22-2009 at 01:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oudemir
What, if I may ask, inspires your passion?


I think I am on a life-long quest to get at the core of what beauty means to me.

I think that in the past humans were in constant danger from wild animals and such things, but now we are in the modern era, we think: "we are safe".

The vast majority of us are not aware of the dangers all around us. The corperate quest for profit is threatening every aspect of our lives and existance... right from advertising unhealthy "food" as healthy, to grossly overcharging for healthcare when we get ill from that, to causing wars to steal from other countries, to making money from selling weapons... to ...to ...to on and on...

We don't live in a safe period of history at all.

My "alternative" interests and views on life and art, culture, music, medicine, politics... etc etc are alternative simply because the "norm" seems insane.

I guess, I feel that human culture is under the influence of mass delusion - a kind of mental illness. Sorry if this sound arrogant and judgemental. But I think that the answer to the question of what inspires my passion - is that I truly want to experience and witnes what lies underneath this layer of modern human insanity. There is something truly and humanly beautiful still alive there...

oudemir - 3-24-2009 at 11:44 PM

Quote:
I think I am on a life-long quest to get at the core of what beauty means to me.


A noble goal indeed!

I recently listened to an interview with Carter Straud (see link below) about his first book titled Natural Selection's Paradox I which he discusses, among many things, how the worship of money in modern culture has lead us away from healthy, sustainable values, true wealth, and triggered the current global economic crisis. He argues that (at least in North America) the majority of wages are far too low, and the growing economic disparity between super-rich and poor is fueling this economic collapse.

Perhaps if people were paid a decent wage and not systematically brainwashed to love money, they would have more time and energy to care about the integrity of their culture (and learn the oud :airguitar: or another instrument/art form!)

Thoughts? Let's keep this thread alive!

http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/49408

acryl1 - 4-2-2009 at 03:56 AM

Hi from Japan!

Thank you for such an interesting topic!

Post-colonization issue is also a deep problem to us Japanese.
After we were defeated by the Allies in the WWII and the American occupation policy, everything changed.
and I always regret the loss of　Japanese good traditiion including cultures, spritual cultures, etc. in the past.
But this will be far from this topic, so　I digress.

It was interesting that in YouTube video about "oud in Cairo", there were two opposite opinions.
Naseer Shammma said "Now is the golden time of oud" and Fathi Amin said "Oud tradition is dissapearing more and more"
Which is close to the reality?

Edward Powell - 4-2-2009 at 05:34 AM

PLEASE TELL US ABOUT JAPANESE POST-COLONIZATION! THIS IS VERY INTERESTING!
For me personally, Japanese was the first foreign culture that I became VERY interested in. I am very interested to hear your opinions.

Both Naseer and Fathi are telling the truth. Oud is getting more and more popular - BUT original "oud tradition" is disappearing fast. Naseer plays oud more like a guitar than an oud, and perhaps this is one of the reasons he has been so successful at luring people back to the instrument. There is a paradox there.

acryl1 - 4-2-2009 at 05:00 PM

Edward,

I understand "paradox" you mean,
how you explain is a good help to understand this "paradox".
I respect Naseer as oudist though some of his style is not traditional one,
because he is a big power to enable many people to notice ouds anyway.
and I think we should estimate highly his style as making oud music gain capacity.


Regarding JAPANESE POST-COLONIZATION,
Firstly, Japan was NEVER colonized historically by any foreign countries including the West as a matter of fact. 　
Our ancestors strggled and fought so that we would not be victimized by the West when they approached us from hundreds years ago. Those days the world was like the West's hunting field. Not only America continent, Middle East, Africa continent, but also India and China which are near us fell victim to the West and they were suffering from hard times.
So we had to be westernized in science in order to fight against the West.(*)
But later there was the similar incident, which was Allied Nation's (mainly America's) occupation after WWII. It was just like colonization to Japan.
That had some big points as below.

1. The whole Japan was completely under hypnosis of the GHQ implemented War Guilt Information (Brainwashing) Program and was made to believe everything Japanese before WW2 was evil. Japanese are still bound by the spell.

Both General MacArthur (arrived Japan on August 30, 1945) and the Japanese Government at the beginning correctly interpreted that the acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration by the Japan did not mean “the unconditional surrender of the Japan,” but it did mean “the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces” as stated in the Article 13 of the Declaration. Therefore as long as Japan complied with the Declaration Japan should have had the equal right with the Allied Nations and the Japanese Government should have rejected the GHQ’s censorship.

2.We were made to abandon all our traditional ethics, spiritual culture, traditional culture as evil ones. Everything concerned to Japanese tradition were linked to "Evil war caused by Japan".

3.Tokyo Tribunal of War Criminals　enabled not only Japanese but also the poeple all around the world to believe that only Japan was bad and nothing done by Allied Nations were to blame , even hundreds thousand of civilian victims by America's bombing including nuclear bombs to Hiroshima , Nagasaki
(Not only big cities like Tokyo or Osaka, but small local towns were attacked by indiscriminate bombing, and with the death of enormous numbers of noncombatants. Industrial bases like factories, communication and transportation systems, and even schools, hospitals and houses were burnt to ashes.)
The indiscriminate bombing by B-29 bomber and machine-gun fire by fighters killed numerous number of people, including the elderly, women and children.Many Japanese officers and soldiers were hanged to death, but no Americans.

4.Japan's present constitution was promulgated in 1946, the year following the end of the Pacific War, and went into effect on May 3, 1947.
It enabled Japan to kowtow to　USA.

Theodore Cohen, one of the most importan personells of GHQ reflcted on his role and witnessed later,
"Our main goal was to make Japanese family system collapse , make Japanese generations divide, and make Japanese people feckless, and our 3S policy worked so well, that means
Sex, Screen (movies including music , TV and other entertainment), Sport. We made them addicted to 3S and made them forget about their identity and not interested in their tradition and culture and politics. They were best tools for our intention."
I think music has pretty powerful effect on our mind directly, that is why they tend to use it as controling us.
and so, it is natural that such pop music is always American one.


This might sound too political to members of this forum, but this is historical truth.
and due to this, even playing Japanese traditional musical instrument was regarded as bad thing.

(*)
But even before this big turning point, our losing tradition was beginning.
That was Meiji Era when we abandoned our Samurai system and started westernization
as restoration of Imperial power in 1868. The biggest reason why we chose it was that we did not want to be colonized as lots of other colonized countries by the West.
In order not to be invaded and colonized by the West, we had to be voluntarily westernized not only in modenization in all sytems like science including military arsenal but also in cultures like music. We were made to believe modern werstern classical music like Mozart and Beethoven have more artistic value than all Japanese traditional music.

Having said that, untill the WWII defeat, we had held much more traditional cultures compared to now.
"Japan Day by Day (Hardcover)"
by Edward S. Morse is a MUST-read to know the amazing cultures of old Japan.

acryl1 - 4-2-2009 at 08:30 PM

there's something I forgot to mention.

About pop music here in Japan, the situation is the same as in other countries like people discuss in this thread.
Traditional music is dissapearing faster and faster, and there are so many awful copies of American pop music.

I personally learned Japanese traditional music in my musical history, after reaching middle age.
Like many Japanese young men, I was hooked in western pop music when I was young and got interested in music. I was made to believe that all our traditional music is too old, boring , out-of-date and worthless in school education and media.
It took so many years for me to recognize what I really like and have to learn.
(But I don't want you to misunderstand.
Even now I don't deny all the value of such western pop music.
Now I think that the reason why I was so attacted to rock , jazz, blues, was that I felt and liked the essence of non-Western　music in them . To me that was like a doorway to such as various kinds of traditional music .)
And then later I came to love oud and Arabic traditional music.
and I did believe that there is rigid universalities among all the traditional music in the world. and truly there was a link between Arabic music and Japanese music in the ancient times.
I think modern western classical music is like a mutation evolution in musical history of human being. Of course that has evolved from its medieval times music (which still had similarity with such "universal music " of the world , but it changed so much.
That was linked with industrial revolution, slave trade、etc. of the West.

and as danieletarab says,
Quote:

The positive thing is that there are always more and more people that are getting fed up with modern music (heavy drums, electronic, lots of sounds, keyboards, overdrive guitars etc), and they are looking for something more authentical, something whose meaning stands in History.


We have a same situation here. Yes, that is positive.
For example, Sanshin (Okinawan lute) and Tsugaru-shamisen (three string lute) are much more popular now and quite a few young people are trying it.
but still, such music style is more understandable from the viewpoint of western pop music , due to the pumping rhythm and easily acceptable melody line , but other traditional music with essential qualities cannot be popular.

Edward Powell - 4-3-2009 at 12:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by acryl1I think modern western classical music is like a mutation evolution in musical history of human being. Of course that has evolved from its medieval times music (which still had similarity with such "universal music " of the world , but it changed so much.
That was linked with industrial revolution, slave trade、etc. of the West.


me2!

I am really sad to hear all those things about how American colonization has affected Japan. When will humans "wake up"?

Can you post some pics of traditional Japanese oud-type instruments and suggest some clips??? Does Japanese music have anything like MAQAM?

acryl1 - 4-3-2009 at 02:36 AM

Our musical instrument ( and my specialty )is called "Biwa", and
it is said that biwa has same ancestor( barbat) as oud,
and as you watch this YouTube video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfOA20OY1fk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl_GXQIzAUM&feature=related
I hope you will understand
this vocal melismatic style has some similarity with Persian music.
Like oud music, traditionally Biwa was always with vocal music. not as solo instrument.

Surprisingly, there is an Irish player of Biwa even though very very few Japanese care for Biwa... I think he has gained the essence of Biwa music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm9Sw4hhqYk
and another non-Japanese player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywmCtZvibhY&feature=related
But it might not be so surprising, because it's a bit like me, as a Japanese, playing the oud...

Some people say biwa sounds more like Indian sitar, and
the tone does not sound like oud so much.
and we don't have maqam system but anyway we have different scales from western modern simple scale,major/minor . Some musicologist claim it comes from ancinet Egypt and Arabic music later.

And about price, because there are ONE luthier of Satsuma Biwa and the other ONE for Gaku-Biwa, total only TWO in Japan now, they are all very expensive.
the cheapest one costs you $5000.
and this kind of Biwa costs from $8000!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsrS2w6sq-4&feature=related
Oud's pricing seems much lower compared to this....

Edward Powell - 4-3-2009 at 02:43 AM

I guess it is similar to the PIPA?

Are there microtones in japanese music - or is it based on diatonic and pentatonic scales?

acryl1 - 4-3-2009 at 03:22 AM

Yes, Chinese Pipa is the relative of Japanese Biwa as you suspect it from their similar name.　But Chinese Pipa is much newer instrument which became the present shape and playing method in 1950's.
About Biwa, you can see its photo here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biwa

And yes, we have pentatonic scale and some more.
They are mainly
C, D, F, G, A, C
D, F, G, A, C, D
E, F, A, B, C, E
And of course we have micronotes between each note.
and especially, the E, F, A, B, C, E scale is said to be similar to
Phrigian or Spanish scales, all of wihich is taken for "queer" to the present western classical music theory.

Darwinism and the death of classical Arab music

shareen - 4-6-2009 at 12:09 PM

Hate to say it folks, but music, art, culture, etc, all over the world has been subjected to Darwinism...survival of the fittest. What happened to traditional Japanese music, Chinese music? Indian music is retaining its traditionalism??? Puleeze...look at the music of Bollywood. I studied Indian classical raga singing from the Kirana school in the 70's. All but dead now. By the fittest I mean, unfortunately, commercially fittest. I think mass culture rules. That's just the way of the world. Too bad mass culture falls to the lowest common denominator of commercialiam. I always laugh when I see rappers in other countries rapping in their own languages and dressing like and making the street gestures of American Ghetto Blacks, like the guys I grew up with in High School. Makes me laugh, and cry at the same time. There will always be purists out there maintaining their traditions. Its up to the conservatories to keep a country's classical music, what ever that country may be, alive.

hope

eyeland3 - 4-7-2009 at 01:54 PM

I would like to thank all the contributors to this discussion topic (which is really important). I would like to make several personal observations about traditional culture and music in Syria. I spent in total almost 2 years there, and found many oud instrument makers as well as much ‘traditional’ music. It was not hard to find in the old part of town. There was plenty of popular music too, in fact it was everywhere, but that is another story. The question is, will the traditional music we respect survive?
I am an archaeologist with an interest in very early periods, so my time scale can be measured in hundreds of years. Archaeologically speaking the colonial period in Syria was very short. There is a period now when Syria is being woven into a larger international whole. I was of course bothered by what I saw to be the decline of traditional culture. Things are changing quickly. However, I consoled myself with the fact that no one can be sure how a culture changes. The assumption that western based popular music will replace everything might not hold in the coming decades. As an example, Syria was for a time part of the Roman Empire, and several Emperors of Rome were Syrian (http://syria.vsdi.net/04.htm). Indeed Syria was far more ‘western’ then than now. Syria is today still distinctive and not part of ‘Rome’. No one could have foreseen this result.
Keeping the traditional arts alive is essential now. This is a time of change, and some things can die out. Flint knapping really is a minority pursuit, but then again some modern surgical tools are made using flint blades. I think that there is good reason to be cautiously optimistic about traditional music. So many people from so many different parts of the world value it. After listening to more oud music I am convinced that maybe the community should prepare for worldwide interest rather than decline. It is hard to be sure what will happen, but I know the kind of future I would like to see...

Edward Powell - 4-7-2009 at 11:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by eyeland3 After listening to more oud music I am convinced that maybe the community should prepare for worldwide interest rather than decline.


I participate on this forum and also the fretless guitar forum, and am amazed at how much more interest there is in ouds than fretless guitars --- [but of of course I am not speaking about normal electric guitars].

Part of the reason why electric guitars are taking over is because they are so easy to play. Just a very very light touch and you have a MONSTER of a sound. You really don't have to work at all hardly compared to acoustic instruments.

I think there will always continue to be a small audience for quality and traditional music --- but anyway, it has always been like this. Funny thing, I was walking in the woods yesterday and was thinking about the nature of humanity and our world - and it struck me that although there are billions and billions of us humans, in fact, in terms of high quality music - we are just a small village. Kind of cosy actually :rolleyes:

the dynamic tension of musical evolution

eastmountain - 4-11-2009 at 07:46 PM

Fascinating thread! Thanks to all for your insights and observations.

I have almost no knowledge of Arabic or oud music, being quite new to the instrument. But if I might draw an analogy to American musical forms, please permit me.

American blues music, itself derived of African forms, has changed dramatically from its origins. The same is true with jazz and American folk music forms. Often people lament over how it has changed from its source or how you can't find "authentic" music anymore. But I think evolution is the natural state of music. "He not busy being born is busy dying," as Bob Dylan once sang. Sometimes the evolutionary branches are dead ends and nothing comes of it. Sometimes people return to the roots of the tree and try to start again. It's all good.

The danger, I think, is trying to make music stand still. The western classical music idiom is like that somewhat, insisting on playing the same pieces by the same composers with the same instruments in the same way. But to me, that is a kind of death. Mozart was the rock star of his day. It's wonderful music, but exploring new styles does not have to mean the death of the old forms.

I was once talking to an old jazz trumpet player. He told me a friend of his was very focused on playing a particular style of jazz, to the exclusion of all else. He told the trumpet player that he had "found his groove."

The trumpet player shook his head as he told me the story and said, "Man, the only difference between a groove and a grave is the shape of the coffin."

charlie oud - 4-11-2009 at 08:36 PM

I like what eastmountain is explaining, seeing things as they are, fluid, at the mercy of creative tension. Forming, fragmenting then re-forming, each new generation energizing. The there is a tendancy amongst many musicians to mourn over some past practice or tradition. No one is stopping them playing and their grievance starts to sound a little hollow. To those of us who do not see the present state of music as being unhealthy this can sometimes sound like they are almost playing the victim. There is nothing "wrong" with music., this is not possible.

acryl1 - 4-12-2009 at 04:45 AM

If the situation were just the result of natural selection or the survival of the fittest, it would be alright.
But the reality is not so simple. As the Modern Western colonialism spread the rest of the world, it meant that the art forms including music were affected - either the art was destroyed, stolen or saturated by western influence - which meant that it DIDN'T naturally evolve, or just naturally vanish (if that were the case, then it would be ok as long as it is natural although it is regrettable ).

Giving a rather more graphic example, we cannot say it is OK or healthy that ALL Tasmanian indigenous people were killed. It is historical fact that literally all the people on the island of Tasmania were killed - not one remained, meaning that their unique culture was unnaturally wiped out. It wasn't just natural evolution. Of course there are so many races who suffered genocide and hard times all over the world. It goes without saying that indigenous people on the American continent and Africa, West Indies, India, etc.etc. met such appalling disaster.　The population of victims runs into astronomical numbers.　That was a unprecedented incident in the history of our species.

If this sounds too political for this thread, I can focus on just the music issue. I just want to emphasize that it is not so simple as music evolving - of course I agree that no music is "wrong". But If music culture of a certain ethnic group is wiped out, can you say optimistically "It is the result of the survival of the fittest"? And this is not "if", there have been so many cases of it historically all over the world. Not only genocide but also colonization by Modern Western European countries unnaturally actually killed either intentionally or unintentionally so many unique art forms of many areas of the globe. The situation is similar to languages as we know.
"No one is stopping them playing", that is right , but it only means on a superficial level . What if we are deprived of chances of knowing unknown music? It is like we are stopped playing some kind of music, I think.
Colonization had a powerful tool as well---brainwashing---and in the present days there is "softer colonization" born. And more and more commercial music is being pushed on us by a mass media with so much money. Is this a kind of "fittest surviving" as well?

If we try to get to know some forgotten and unpopular music forms that were the victims of the present music as it became the "fittest" and if we think about why such music was "thrown away", it would be meaningful to our views on music.
Suppose you believe you only like a certain type of music now, and then you discover some other music buried in a "grave", you might be able to realise what you really like.