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RagMakamtar test #3

Edward Powell - 3-28-2009 at 04:37 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JdkITc87hM

just back from Cairo, and now working on voicing the new ragmakamtar which is a fretless guitar inspired by the oud and the sarode.

the oud side: i am now experimenting with some light steel strings, and just this morning the idea of tuning some of the double courses to 4ths and 5ths....

katakofka - 3-28-2009 at 06:05 AM

Both sound gorgeous Ed...wooww. The voice of the oud sound is amazing. Nice bayati by the way

Edward Powell - 3-28-2009 at 06:52 AM

Really? Thanks so much!

I've been really struggling with the oud voice... the sarode sounded perfect right away, but the oud is really tough. With normal oud strings it sounds pretty uneventful. I need something that 'strikes you' immediately.

After much experimenting - also with steel strings - I was getting a pretty good sound from everything except the 3 and 4th strings - then decided to try this 5th tunings. It really opens up the sound - but will make some makams "cloudy".

However, at this point I think it is important for me to find my own voice and not try to be (copy) authentic Arab/Turk. Rather, to be and authentic "me".

Anyway, if I go with this new tuning, I will have to compose a whole new repertoire just for this (was planning that anyway).

katakofka - 3-28-2009 at 07:00 AM

I would stick on that. Not a oud but a oud like sound with a sound base. I like it

Owain-Hawk - 3-28-2009 at 07:18 AM

Wow, that Sorade sound is AWESOME. :xtreme:

Very spiritual sound.

I think the Oud on the other hand is leaning towards the Turkish sound and to me it sounds more like a Saz/Baglama than an Oud, espesically the high notes.. But, if you started making and selling these, I would SO buy one.

Edward Powell - 3-28-2009 at 07:44 AM

...thanks again!
I've just been playing much more and getting a much much better feel- and figuring out how it "coax" the sound out of it... even some bluesy things.

I am tempted to take this clip down because already I am getting it sounding 10X better. But I will leave it for now, and put up another test soon.

YES, as soon as I "let go" of the idea that I should sound like an oud - then I started getting ideas which began to work. ---what stuck in my head was 2 weeks ago seeing at Antar's place in Cairo a syrian made fretless buzuk with steel strings. ---this came back to me yesterday and I started picturing a sort of buzuk (baglama) tone in my mind... and sure enough it is much more condusive then trying to get this 'guitar' to sound like an oud.

regarding making and selling. I do do that - sort of - ...not as an outright business, because I only build for myself generally. However last year I built an instrument for Nadishana (http://www.myspace.com/nadishana) which was a mixture of a mandola and a guitar/sitar... took 3 months of solid work so I had to ask a lot of money - he REALLY wanted it so he agreed.

Lately I have toyed with the idea of coming up with a standard model of double-neck and making perhaps 10 at one time - and therefore bringing the price down. But at this stage that is just an idea.

Luttgutt - 3-28-2009 at 10:55 AM

Wow Edward.. WOW!!

This was just BEAUTIFUL!

It does not sound exactly like a oud. But why should that be a problem??
I sounds just like it should.. like a dream

Two questions (may I?):

1- How havy is this baby?
2- I would love to hear the "oud" part plaid fast (Anouar Brahem style-like). Wonder how it would do then??
Is it possible that you could post one, please?

I might just be among the lucky 10 people on your list :'D

Continue the wanderful quest.
Best luck
Luttgutt

Edward Powell - 3-28-2009 at 11:53 AM

Thanks!
Sure.... here is a fast_play_test on oud neck...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JCK-jStEpU

....I haven't weighed it, but it is relatively heavy. It could be made lighter - it has an enormous neck block. You can see pics of the build on my website.

http://www.edwardpowell.com/rmtar.html

Luttgutt - 3-28-2009 at 12:16 PM

Thanks Edward for your fast reply and play :bounce:

This is a new "sound" you have created! And I LOVE it :xtreme:

Is it possible to play this beauty with the usual oud pick? Or are the strings too close to the sound board to be able to do that?

I'll be waiting for the new clips.
And PLEASE, make them longer.

Edward Powell - 3-28-2009 at 12:45 PM

Thanks Luttgutt for your encouragement! It means a lot!

about the "pick" issue:
with this instrument, when I was using nylon strings for the oud side, using a normal oud pick gave a much better sound than the medium thickness guitar pick that I am using here. However, the problem comes with switching to the sarode neck, because the sarod likes a VERY hard pick (they use coconut shells!) - - - so I had to find a compromise.

Otherwise a normal oud pick works fine --- the strings are very high off the soundboard. 15mm.

I will post some longer clips.... it is a question of making the final decision about what stringing to go with. . . . then moving forward completeing the rest of the instrument... putting on sympathetic strings, and finally varnishing. . . . then composing and doing a lot of practice. Everytime I create a new instrument I also have to LEARN how to play it!!! But this one was designed for ergonomics so it is coming fast.

katakofka - 3-28-2009 at 01:21 PM

Ed..what is the sting length on both sides?

Edward Powell - 3-28-2009 at 02:08 PM

67cm both!

this is normal for a sarod, but baritone for an oud.

Reda Aouad - 3-28-2009 at 02:09 PM

And how do you manage to finger on 67cm string length?

Edward Powell - 3-28-2009 at 02:11 PM

:cool:

don't forget, I have played sitar for 20 years, and sitar has 88cm minimum!

Reda Aouad - 3-28-2009 at 02:15 PM

Ok but the sitar has frets. I mean on fretless instruments it's more difficult to hit the exact note if you are used to a ~60cm string length oud. Or is it? I dunno.. I was just wondering.. sometimes people find it difficult to move from 59cm to 61cm for example..

Reda Aouad - 3-28-2009 at 02:17 PM

And by the way.. what strings are you using for the oud? I mean all strings are made for the string lengths we are used to.. which affects their tension. What about that?

Edward Powell - 3-28-2009 at 02:27 PM

actually, the longer the scale, the easier to get the intonation right. Plus I never have trouble jumping from one scale length to another - I find it totally easy as long as I have orientation markers.

i am now using a combination of different types of strings, but mostly plain steel... some wound, some classical guitar, some nylon. . . . yes it is a major testing procedure with an original instrument to find the "right" strings.

So many other factors affect things majorly also - like bridge hight, action etc etc

Luttgutt - 3-28-2009 at 02:33 PM

Edward! I know exactly what you mean.
I got my new oud one month ago (58,5 cm floating bridge arabic oud). And I have already tried 5 different sets on strings on it! Nothing seems to work!! :shrug:

I would like to follow your progress and hear all the strings you are using, if possible.

About the pick problem (Just an idea):
What about using two picks at the same time: one aroumd the thumb (country style) for the Surud, and one in hand for the oud!?
Do you think it could work?

Anyway, I think you have something real good here.
At least I love the sound :airguitar:

katakofka - 3-28-2009 at 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Edward Powell
67cm both!

this is normal for a sarod, but baritone for an oud.

I guess it's not easy to duplicate the oud sound with this string length and strings quality. I would look forward to generate a new sound rather than duplicating the oud sound. So far, I pretty much in love with the sound you have on the oud. Felicitation !

Edward Powell - 3-29-2009 at 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luttgutt
Edward! I know exactly what you mean.
I got my new oud one month ago (58,5 cm floating bridge arabic oud). And I have already tried 5 different sets on strings on it! Nothing seems to work!! :shrug:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=edwardpowellmusic&view=vide...

here on my youtube channel you can see test 4 and 5 which I did before Cairo... this was basically with all nylon almost all normal oud strings, but the tuning was one semi-tone higher to give more tension on the soundboard (also the bridge was much more high) What I find is that with nylon strings the tone can VERY VERY EASILY get lost completely if the tension on the soundboard is not exactly right --- too much or too little tension and the tone is dead. Steel strings sound good almost to matter what you do.

Yes, a switchable pick would work. Made frow turtle shell- one side hard -one side thin... just flick it back and forth.

I'm sorry to hear about your tone problem. Like I said it can be relating to other things like bridge hight and string action.... if you post some close up fotos and sound clips we can probably help you solve it here.

I am also now feeling very satisfied with the sound of the ragmakamtar now - - - it is opening up more and more! But if I stay with this it is going to greatly change how I do music, because the makams will not be pure anymore. ---but this will be good for me

) At least I learned them more or less correctly to begin with. This is my philosophy anyway -- DO FUSION, but FIRST try to learn the correct/original thing!

Edward Powell - 3-29-2009 at 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by katakofka

Quote:

Originally posted by Edward Powell
67cm both!

this is normal for a sarod, but baritone for an oud.

Thanks so much! I really love it also and it is opening more and more. The thing is that I decided that with this instrument I would absolutely not settle for any sound less that something that I absolutely LOVE! I would keep trying until I reached that.... no compromise! My first ragmakamtar i was not totally satisfied with the oud sound (using Thomastic PJ116 strings on the oud side - tuning VERY TIGHT) - - but i settled with something less than satisfactory

---and the result was that i had to build another instrument :shrug:

About string lengths: I think that the string length has less to do with the sound than does the shape of the body and soundboard. Here is a clip - the background track is my recording from my SPIRITDANCE CD... the oud is the first one I build and it's body was a copy of an Arab oud, but the string length is 68cm. And the bracing is like a guitar X-bracing (but extremely light) Strings are normal oud strings... and I think it sounds just like a normal oud almost.

Edward Powell - 3-29-2009 at 09:45 AM

here is a longer, more relaxed test...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpvX3d3bII8

Luttgutt - 3-29-2009 at 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Edward Powell
[
I'm sorry to hear about your tone problem. Like I said it can be relating to other things like bridge hight and string action.... if you post some close up fotos and sound clips we can probably help you solve it here.

This is my philosophy anyway -- DO FUSION, but FIRST try to learn the correct/original thing!

Totally agree with that philosophy
Thanks for the link.
I definetly love the last 2 with metal strings best!!

Yes I am sure you guys could help! My problem is that I don't have a camera. I posted a picture of one of my ouds using my mobile camera, and it was a disaster

But I 'll try to borrow one soon...

Edward Powell - 3-29-2009 at 11:32 AM

the very top string is nylon :rolleyes:

Luttgutt - 3-29-2009 at 11:56 AM

Ragmakamtar :applause:

Edward Powell - 3-30-2009 at 10:55 AM

the dillemna is continuing... as much as I really love the tone of the 3 and 4th course tuned to fifths- -they began to start irritating when it comes to playing a recognisable makam...

however, the 3 and 4th courses, tuned in unison, are proving really tough to get a very nice resonant tone with the strings I have - for example, for the 3rd course which normally is the thickest nylon, using nylon is fine but a bit lifeless. Using very thin plain steel (as I am with great success on the 2nd course) is sucking on the 3rd course. I have now found some success with plain bronze sitar wire as a double course, however the guages I have are just slightly too thick..... I would need to order some slightly more thin wire to really know if this can sound great or not. At the moment, with slightly too heavy sitar wire, it sounds pretty good but not great.

As much as anything it is also a musical dillemna. Going for the parallel fifths give a very very unique and very rich tone - BUT it definitely leads the music away from the traditions. To make this work would require inventing a new way of playing...