Mike's Oud Forums

New to forum

timlink - 6-4-2004 at 05:50 PM

Hey all. I recently discovered this site while doing a search for Oud tunings and strings. I came across mine a few years ago and have been religiously into it since. I'm primarily a guitar player and got interested in the Oud after a Tea Party concert in Seattle. Anyway, here are some pics of my Oud. I'm trying to determine what type it is, Arabic or Turkish, though I'm leaning towards Turkish. Maybe somebody can help.

timlink - 6-4-2004 at 05:52 PM

Sorry...don't know why that pic came out so big. I'm scared to post the back pic now!

Oud type

spyrosc - 6-4-2004 at 06:06 PM

Dear friend,

This is a Syrian Oud, made in Damascus by "the family of Ali Khalifa".

Please check the threads on this. It's a commercial grade (tourist) oud.

Spyros C.

mavrothis - 6-4-2004 at 06:07 PM

Hi, welcome to the forums. This oud definitely looks Arabic, probably Syrian (Ali Khalife). What tuning do you use?

Take care,

mav

Elie Riachi - 6-4-2004 at 06:10 PM

Hello,

From the ornamentation I would say it is Arabic (Syrian). Usually the scale length is used to determine this. You can also search the forum on this subject, I remember seeing a number of posts on this matter.

Elie

We did it again

Elie Riachi - 6-4-2004 at 06:15 PM

Hello friends,

It appears that all three of us posted at the same time.

I'll take a break for a while.

Catch you later,
Elie

Mike - 6-4-2004 at 06:26 PM

Hey Tim,

Welcome to the forums. Go ahead and attach a shot of the back. I'll resize the photos later and put them in one post.

Take care,
Mike

timlink - 6-6-2004 at 10:19 AM

The soundhole is about 4" inches, and I think the string length was 24.5. On the inside, there is Arabic writing and a picture of a middle eastern Clark Gable looking fellow. For a tourist instrument, it sure holds it tuning well! (I recall a friend ordering a sitar from Lark in the Morning and it was awful.) I actually do get sick of the wood keys and I'm curious about everyody's opinion on machine heads. I probably need to have them refinished too.

I like to tune it in the regular Arabic tuning, but I like tuning it to an open chord too, usually G# B G# so on. I haven't had any luck with regular strings for it and usually end up picking out a few single classical guitar strings to use for the high end. Also: the nut on my oud has no groove for the bass string. Thought that was odd.

nadir - 6-6-2004 at 02:31 PM

Lark in the Morning does not have a very good reputation... Haha, it's good that you like your oud. I remember having a dreaded tourist oud, I actually ended up giving it away to an Iraqi kid that loved it!

As for strings, I'm sure that many members here can hook you up with oud strings. :D

Elie Riachi - 6-6-2004 at 03:22 PM

Try using D'Addario's string set J47. Discard the thinest string (the high pitch E in guitar.) Then for tuning oud High pitch to low, then use the following:
String P/N --> Oud open note / Tension
J4702 --------> C4 / ~ 12.32 lb
J4703 --------> G3 / ~ 11.44 lb
J4704 --------> D3 / ~ 14.57 lb
J4705 --------> A2 / ~ 13.34 lb
J4706 --------> F2 / ~ 14.1 lb

Then if you decide to use a sixth course, I found the D'Addario string NYL054 can be tuned to C2 at a tension of 14.65 lb.

These calculations are based on string length 24.8" which is close to the length of you oud. The tensions will be slightly lower on your oud.

If you decide to try this, please let me know how you like it.

Good luck,

Elie

have fun homey

excentrik - 6-8-2004 at 10:39 AM

Hey cuz, welcome to the forums-
you know those are whole lot of fun to fix up- please though, for sake of our time tested traditions, don't put machined pegs on that thing- We can give you some tips about how to hold tuning and what not- I got the same one (a little older though) it is a Ali Khalifeh. Good Luck

Tarik

Opinions

Elie Riachi - 6-8-2004 at 01:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by timlink
I actually do get sick of the wood keys and I'm curious about everyody's opinion on machine heads.


Here is what we think: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=405

Regarding tuning pegs, checkout the threads below:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=779
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=862

Hope this helps,
Elie

Word of caution

Elie Riachi - 6-9-2004 at 08:26 PM

Hello,

It seems that a more common string tension for the oud is around 8.8 lbs or 4 kg.

D'Addarios oud strings set from juststrings.com, on average is 14.9 lbs per sring if you use 11 stringsand the tuning they specify which maybe for Turkish ouds. Compared to others including lute this seems a little high and I am not certain if most ouds can handle this much tension.

On the other hand using the D'Addario Classical guitar strings set, J47, normal tension, the Pro Arte series on my oud, I compute the following tensions which seem to be acceptable in theory!

String Tension

spyrosc - 6-9-2004 at 08:43 PM

Hey Elie,

I meant to ask you. What method do you use to measure string tension on your oud ?

Thanks
Spyros C.

Measuring string tension

Elie Riachi - 6-9-2004 at 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spyrosc
Hey Elie,

I meant to ask you. What method do you use to measure string tension on your oud ?

Thanks
Spyros C.


Hi Spyros C,

The way I measure the tension in a string is by hanging a known mass from the middle of the string and measure the displacement of the string at the midpoint due to the hanging weight. Then:

Tension (in mass units) = mass*(Scale Length^2 / 4 + Displacement^2)^.5/(2*Displacement)

For Example; The mass I used is .6508 lb resulted in a Displacement of 7 mm for a scale Length of 630 mm, the tension computed turned out to be 14.65 lb (Caution: maybe to high tension for oud!). The string was tuned to E2 for experimentaion.

To check the accuracy of my measurement, I worked backwards using the tension and string "linear" density to compute the frequency and the results matched to within 0.1 Hz.

I think one can obtain very close results when care is taken in taking the measurements. It is important to know the mass value as accurate as possible and the displacement to within .5 mm. I used a triple beam scale to measure mass and a metric ruler to measure displacement.

Let me know if I need to post an illustration or if I need to make more sense.

(P.S. You meant measured string tension and not calculated as refered to in the table in the previous post?)

Regards,
Elie

String Tension

spyrosc - 6-10-2004 at 01:09 AM

Dear Elie,

Thanks for the information. I understand your set-up completely.

My only trepidation with it, is that by hanging the weight in the middle, you are in effect modifying the linear mass by stretching the string, and you are affecting the tension force somewhat as well.

However you say you were able to backtrack it to within a fraction of a Hz, so that's very interesting.

Keep testing
Spyros C.

Elie Riachi - 6-10-2004 at 08:45 AM

Hello Spyros C,

Regarding the linear mass, the calculation of frequency is made for the string without the weight hanging. The weight is only used to measure the tension in the string when the string is tuned to a known frequency.

As for adding tension from the hanging weight, I thought of that also and could probably do better there but given the small weight, it doesn't seem to alter it by much.

I went back and subtracted the value of the hanging mass from the measured tension so now the predicted and measured tension are within .3 lb.

When I started this experiment, my intention was to get a rough idea of what the actual tension of the string in my oud is compared to what I compute in theory. So I am pleased with this method being so simple and low tech but yet yeild fairly decent results.

Anyway, I am always open for suggestions on better ways?

(p.s. Tensioning the string to 14 lb made it sound very nice. It sounded very strong and rich and I could realy feel the back of my oud resonate when the string is plucked. However I am not certain the oud could handle such high tensions. Next maybe analyzing the strength of glue joints in ouds for type of glue and joint also wood material strength?;))

Regards,
Elie

Measuring tension in an installed string, to be continued

Elie Riachi - 6-11-2004 at 11:53 AM

:wavey: Since there has been some interest in this subject, I have refined my equation to calculate the initial tension in the string prior to attaching the weight in the middle. The same experimental procedures are used but repeated for two different values of weights. The refined new derivation is a bit more involved but should give a better match to the actual initial tension. I will post the new procedures and equations in a new thread.

Regards,
Elie