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ORIENTAL MUSIC NOTATION with Finale?

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Edward Powell - 4-27-2009 at 09:44 AM

Hi Friends,

I am writing some music with my FINALE program but I do not have the oriental fonts, or the "quarter-notes" installed in my program...

Does anyone out there have some experience with this??

I need help...

thanks!!

katakofka - 4-27-2009 at 09:54 AM

Ed
I tried a lot with Finale with no sucess, It seems the program does not support oriental notation. Mayble I am wrong but I recently switched to Sibellius also Myriad has a nice program that allows you to write turkish and arabic notation

Reda Aouad - 4-27-2009 at 11:44 AM

Ed you're touching on a problem that has been a real headache to me!

You can write quarter notes in Finale.. but this creates a problem.. you will not be able to play it back correctly..

What I mean is that the music sheet looks perfect and I would definitely recommend doing this.. much better than Sibelius.. but when you play it.. the DO natural will sound DO.. DO1/4# will sound DO#.. DO# will sound RE.. DO3/4# will sound RE#.. and RE will sound MI.. this is because the MIDI synthesizer doesn't accommodate for microtones and understands only 1/2 notes.. then you quarter will be a half.. and your full note will be 2 notes.. so the intervals will be redefined.. and that's what you technically need to do in Finale to write oriental music sheets.. redefine the intervals..

I've tried Sibelius but it doesn't have the Arabic quarter tone character.. it has only the Turkish ones.. like the inverse flat sign (a mirrored 'b').. but it plays back correctly..

So if you still want to do what you want to do in Finale.. tell me so I can tell you how to do it..

Reda Aouad - 4-27-2009 at 11:46 AM

I forgot to mention.. I searched for that a lot.. and it's a messy configuration to do in Finale.. but in the end it works.. you can even have key signatures with microtones in them.. to some extent.. a feature which is also not available in Sibelius..

And I also spent too much time trying to change the synthesizer for Finale and create pitch bends for quarter tones and a lot of different things.. but nothing worked for playing back correctly in Finale..

Reda Aouad - 4-27-2009 at 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by katakofka
Ed
I tried a lot with Finale with no sucess, It seems the program does not support oriental notation. Mayble I am wrong but I recently switched to Sibellius also Myriad has a nice program that allows you to write turkish and arabic notation

Souheil.. can you have key signatures with microtones in Myriad? and does it support the Arabic microtones accidentals?

Edward Powell - 4-27-2009 at 12:09 PM

Well that's great. It is not too important to have the play back because I am recording the tunes just playing them... that is more correct anyway... but I NEED to oriental notation - and the only program I have in finale. . .

So if you can drop me a few pointers regarding HOW to swing it - that would be GREAT ! :bowdown:

katakofka - 4-27-2009 at 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reda Aouad

Quote:

Souheil.. can you have key signatures with microtones in Myriad? and does it support the Arabic microtones accidentals?

I guess yes. I played with the program I while ago there is a demo version that you can download. My guess is that Myriad is the best for oriental notations.
http://www.myriad-online.com/en/products/melody.htm

but I am sticking on Finale since I rarely do the playback

oudtab - 4-27-2009 at 12:45 PM

Hello Edward,

I have tried 3 softwares :

- TablEdit V2.65 (http://www.tabledit.com) : you can see examples on my website http://sites.google.com/site/oudguitare/lestablatures/listetabs and http://sites.google.com/site/oudguitare/lestablatures/tabledit

- Lylipond (freeware) : http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond/Writing-p... and http://lilypond.org
Writing with Lylipond is a bit difficult, but it works very well and it's free.

- Sibelius : CTRL+ALT+K to have the notation symbols menu then F12 to have the quarter tones symbols.

Try to download the demo version ( http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/download/get.pl?com=sh∏=sibde... ), then write your music with it and save your scores by printing with pdfcreator.

Michaël

Edward Powell - 4-27-2009 at 12:52 PM

wow, thanks... gee seems like a lot of options available. Of course I would rather go with a free option, but I have had unpleasant experiences always with trail versions.....

Still I wonder what would be the easiest way to go - since I already have a great working full version of finale - and know well how to use it (except for the coma notes...)

thanks!

Reda Aouad - 4-27-2009 at 01:07 PM

Edward,

First of all.. download the following font
- For Windows/Linux: http://pagespro-orange.fr/christian.texier/mididesi/free/media/temp...
- For Mac: http://pagespro-orange.fr/christian.texier/mididesi/free/media/temp...

In case of Windows.. unzip the file then right-click on "tempera.ttf" and choose install.. this will install the font into the fonts directory in your operating system.. if you're having trouble with that tell me I'll help you..

Then this is what you will have to do in Finale to have the Arabic quarter accidentals:

- Go to "Document->Document Options"
- Choose "Fonts" in the left pane
- In the "Notation" drop-down box (the third one from top) choose "Accidentals" if it is not already selected
- Click "Set Font" next to it and choose "Tempera"
- Then click "OK" to apply the settings
- Select "Tools->Key signature"
- Right-click on the first measure in the staff and select "Other..."
- In the upper drop-down box, select "Nonstandard..."
- Click "Next" twice
- Click on "KeyMap"
- Set the "Total Steps" to 24 (and not the "Diatonic Steps")
- Click on the squares to change their configuration to oxxxoxxxoxoxxxoxxxoxxxox (o is white x is black)
- Click "OK"
- Click on "Attribute"
- Click on "Symbol Font" and choose "Tempera" as the font and click "OK"
- Click on "Symbol List ID"
- Now set the following by pressing "Insert" then "Next" after EACH one (the characters are case-sensitive):
Alter:0 / Characters: T (capital T)
Alter:1 / Characters: ] (right bracket)
Alter:2 / Characters: g (small g)
Alter:3 / Characters: q (small q)
Alter:4 / Characters: z (small z)
Alter:-1 / Characters: < (less than)
Alter:-2 / Characters: A (capital A)
Alter:-3 / Characters: 7 (digit 7)
Alter:-4 / Characters: . (dot)
- Then click "OK" in all the open widowns to apply the settings and return to the music sheet
- Now you can use the "+1/2" and "-1/2" from the simple entry palette to raise or lower by quarter steps

To change the key signature:
- Select "Tools->Key signature"
- Right-click on the first measure in the staff and select "Other..."
- In the upper drop-down box, select "Nonstandard..."
- Play with the up and down arrows to change the key signature as you like

I tried to be as much detailed as possible.. I hope this will help.
I am using Finale 2009.. so you may find slight modification to the above steps.. and maybe not..

GOOD LUCK

Reda Aouad - 4-27-2009 at 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oudtab
Hello Edward,

I have tried 3 softwares :

- TablEdit V2.65 (http://www.tabledit.com) : you can see examples on my website http://sites.google.com/site/oudguitare/lestablatures/listetabs and http://sites.google.com/site/oudguitare/lestablatures/tabledit

- Lylipond (freeware) : http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond/Writing-p... and http://lilypond.org
Writing with Lylipond is a bit difficult, but it works very well and it's free.

- Sibelius : CTRL+ALT+K to have the notation symbols menu then F12 to have the quarter tones symbols.

Try to download the demo version ( http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/download/get.pl?com=sh∏=sibde... ), then write your music with it and save your scores by printing with pdfcreator.

Michaël

Thanks.. I will try TablEdit..

As for Sibelius.. it doesn't have the Arabic half-flat accidental.. the usual flat ('b' facing to the right) with a slash on it.. and you cannot have a key signature with quarter notes..

I just tried Lylipond but it is too much of a hassle.. I've previously used such tools but it is too much time consuming..

Thanks anyways

Reda Aouad - 4-27-2009 at 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Edward Powell
wow, thanks... gee seems like a lot of options available. Of course I would rather go with a free option, but I have had unpleasant experiences always with trail versions.....

Still I wonder what would be the easiest way to go - since I already have a great working full version of finale - and know well how to use it (except for the coma notes...)

thanks!

Ed.. I wrote to you the steps for the Arabic notation.. only quarter notes.. if you want to write in Turkish coma style tell me so I can tell you what to change..

eliot - 4-27-2009 at 05:52 PM

Lilypond has a steep learning curve, but is the only program with true native support for Turkish and Arab microtones. It also allows flats and sharps with arrows or with superscript numbers (either on the staff or in the key signature), which is immensely useful when accurately notating things like a 2-comma flat note.

eliot - 4-27-2009 at 05:53 PM

Thanks Reda for the tips on using Finale - sometimes I have to work with finale scores, and typically I lose 2 hours trying to recreate the steps you detailed above!

Brian Prunka - 4-27-2009 at 10:08 PM

There are a couple of simpler ways to work with Arabic notation in Finale.

As Reda says, it is pretty much impossible to have it play back correctly.
I've come up with some workarounds that preserve most of the playback function (except for the specific notes when a quarter tone is required).

1- first thing is, install a font that has the appropriate symbols.

2- if you just need an occasional symbol, use the articulation tool, create a half-flat and/or half-sharp symbol, and apply it directly to the note.
You can figure out how to make it appear in the correct position automatically, or just position it manually.
If you had a piece that was in Hijaz, but had a few B-half-flats, this might be a good solution.
Everything would play back correctly except the half-flats (it's actually possible to make the articulation a 1/4tone pitch bend and have it play back, but it's not worth the effort, I assure you).

2- if you want a key signature that has no mixing (i.e., all half-flats, all half-sharps) you can just choose the closest normal key signature and assign the font to the appropriate symbol.
For example, Rast would be a Bb key signature (2 flats) and set the key signature "flat" symbol to = the half-flat symbol.
Everything would play back sort-of right, except it would be a different mode, with flats in the place of half-flats, etc. Still, it would be useful for audio-proofreading (the main function of playback for me).

3- I don't like using the key signature system that's built-in for microtonal key signatures (as Reda described).
Here's a solution I came up with, using the "clef designer" tool, it allows you to make any key signature you can imagine:
Go into document options
select "clefs"
go to the clef designer
design a new clef+key signature:
You want to have a clef (typically G clef).
Next to the clef, put in the symbols for the key signature, so the the key signature is part of the "clef". you can use any symbols you want.
All of this is done with the text tool (within clef designer), using your music fonts for the clef and accidentals.
fonts should typically be 24 point.
once you create the symbols, you can move them around into the right positions.
Once the clef is done, go back to the document and hide the key signature (either with the measure tool, or with the staff styles tool).
You may have to adjust the option for the spacing following the clef, so that the music doesn't collide with the clef.
Once you make some clefs, you can save them in a library and use them again later.
My preference is to make some blank templates with the common key signatures and use those as a starting point when I do a new piece.

This works well for microtonal and mixed key signatures, or other nonstandard key signatures.
You can still use the regular key signature that's closest, since it will be hidden anyway, and this will make your playback a little better
(i.e., you could use an Eb key signature for D bayati, so that most of the notes will be close, and the E 1/2flats will just sound as Eb's)

4. If the piece has a lot of half-flats, half sharps, etc., you can set the "double-flat" and "double-sharp" symbols to be half-flat and half-sharp instead, then you can just alter the notes to get the symbols.
It sounds pretty wrong when playing it back, but not as wrong as using a 24-step key signature.

Honestly, the solution that Reda outlines works, but it's a huge pain, effectively makes playback useless, and I avoid it if possible.

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 12:38 AM

Thanks Brian and Eliot for the tips

They should help in most situations.. but anyways it's always a workaround and never perfect..

Honestly I don't know why one of the most professional notation software doesn't natively support microtonal notation and playback, considering that geographically, half of the world play non-western music of some kind. It's frustrating. You just start trying different other tools and find out that each has its own problems and/or deficiencies.

Edward Powell - 4-28-2009 at 01:53 AM

I have downloaded and installed LILYPOND, and when I now try to open it it says to conduct this small test, which I did successfully - - - but still the program will not open... it keeps asking me to do this test again and again...

any suggestions?

Edward Powell - 4-28-2009 at 02:13 AM

...another small irritation I am experiencing is trying to UN - RAR a keygen which I need to re-install FINALE... can anyone suggest a good available un-raring program on-line?

THANKS

ps, man i would rather be playing oud

)

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 02:36 AM

download the trial version of winrar.. it will do.. and will not expire.. just google it

Edward Powell - 4-28-2009 at 02:40 AM

cool!
will try!

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Edward Powell
I have downloaded and installed LILYPOND, and when I now try to open it it says to conduct this small test, which I did successfully - - - but still the program will not open... it keeps asking me to do this test again and again...

any suggestions?

What test? :S

I installed it.. didn't start the program.. just create a text file and change its extension to ".ly".. follow the documentation online to create your first sample sheet.. save the file.. and then double-click it.. it will compile and generate a pdf file if your syntax is correct..

After taking Eliot's advice.. I may stick to Lilypond.. I have the programming spirit like he does and I am used to writing thousands of lines of code.. and after knowing that it natively support microtones it's great news! I am digging my way into it now.. I wonder though if the playback is correct with microtones..

Edward Powell - 4-28-2009 at 03:11 AM

... well you are much more clever than me !

I still can't get past that test page

but will try again...

I realise that the playback is infact very important for me because my reading and writing is not great, and the playback help me to confirm that I have written it all properly.

For sure Reda, let us know if the playback is working nicely... even if it can not play microtones...

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 03:12 AM

A-M-A-Z-I-N-G !!

The microtonal MIDI playback of Lilypond is totally correct!! :applause:

Edward Powell - 4-28-2009 at 03:28 AM

...getting lilypond to work:

so I
-installed it
-clicked on the icon
-it tells me to save this as text.ly
-then i drag this and drop it on the icon
-this creates a PDF file which shows a C major scale.

NOW WHAT? :shrug:

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 04:23 AM

What do you exactly want to do?
Im not an expert yet but I may help you as I wrote a simple sheet with microtones and played it back in MIDI..

Edward Powell - 4-28-2009 at 04:35 AM

am I on track?

I got this PDF with the C major scale... now what?
Do you use this PDF page as my writing page some how??

I figured LILYPAD would open like a normal program when I double click on the ICON... but when I do that, all it does is keep giving me this instruction sheet about doing this "test.ly"

...so I'm confused as to how to start putting notes on "paper", and then of course playback comes a bit later...

thanks

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 04:44 AM

Oh I see.. hehe..

So let me tell you how it works.. of course you can't use the PDF file to write your notes on!
You must edit the test.ly file. How? Well you can follow the instructions in here http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond-learning/...

But to tell you quickly.. you edit the test.ly (you can rename it of course) and write something like:

{
c d eeh f g a beh c
}

which is now the Rast "scale" (don't quote me on that :P)
('eh' after the note is half-flat according to the German dictionary included by default.. you can include others to change the notes name to DO RE MI for example and to b for flat. etc...)

you can write:

{
c4 d8 e8 f4 g16 a16 b16 c16
}

and you'll get a quarter note c, eighth d and e, and 4 sixteenth g a b c in your measure..

I found the tutorial I gave you above very useful.. so try it.. and whenever you're unsure about something we can always figure it out together

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 04:46 AM

And of course you regenerate the PDF file to see what the output has become after editing the ly file..
So the PDF file is only a compilation of what you wrote in the ly file.. you will have to generate it every time you edit the ly file..

Edward Powell - 4-28-2009 at 07:15 AM

Oh, WoW!

Yes, I totally catch the concept now! ...this is by first experience with a "text based interface". I really like the concept - you just learn the code, and then off you go! Great!

What about playback... how do you do this [ok I can just read the tutorial, but I'm lazy

) ]?

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 07:23 AM

Ok now for the extremely simple MIDI part..

your text file should look like this:

\score {
{MUSIC}
\midi {
\context {
\Score
tempoWholesPerMinute = #(ly:make-moment 72 4)
}
}
}

You would write your code in the {MUSIC} red section above.. and edit the tempo.. the sample above shows 72bpms, with the beat=4 which is a quarter note.. now run your .ly file again and it will generate the MIDI.. but not the PDF.. still didn't figure out how to generate both..

Edward Powell - 4-28-2009 at 07:52 AM

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bounce:

...this is really easy! and the microtones are good. The great thing also is that the text and sound files are universal - anyone can open them!

this is really revolutionary...

I just composed a new piece combining makam ussak and raga bageshri... let's see if i can get it texted up - then i will try to post it for fun...

thank EVERYBODY for all this great help!

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 07:53 AM

Wait! Where are you going?
I'm still figuring out how to have a custom key signature.. it's working just give me some time..

Edward Powell - 4-28-2009 at 08:05 AM

...ok, I will be lazy and wait for you to figure these things out.

I will need custom key signature and time signatures.
I guess the tutorial tells the codes for all the notes and rests......

...so I will go back to composing and wait... THANKS

Now I'm composing a piece combining makam hicaz and raga bahar... nice combination!

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 08:47 AM

well.. for the custom key signature.. go to http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond/Writing-p... and scroll down to the section "selected snippets" it couldn't be clearer..

as for the time signature.. it is also straight to the point in this document http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.9/Documentation/user/lilypond/Time-signa...

FastForward - 4-28-2009 at 08:52 AM

This page might help for arabic key signatures

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond/Arabic-mu...

Brian Prunka - 4-28-2009 at 08:52 AM

Are you guys using Lilypond on PC or Mac? I tried it on Mac but it was very cumbersome. I've spent so much time learning Finale that learning another system seems like too much work.
At this point, there isn't anything I can't do in Finale, so I'll probably stick with it.

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 08:59 AM

Well I am using it on Windows.. and so seems Ed..

It will take some time to learn it.. So far I've managed to learn the basics today.. but it will definitely take some time to grasp all the different features when you want to have a complex music sheet.

One great advantage is that the MIDI playback is natively accurate to the coma.. which is great.. and I personally find myself much more comfortable editing with it.

Reda Aouad - 4-28-2009 at 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FastForward
This page might help for arabic key signatures

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond/Arabic-mu...

Well I'm still searching for the Arabic half-flat sign.. a slashed 'b'.. you can use it inline before the note but still can't seem to use it in the key signature.. and the page you provided says:

The symbol for semi-flat does not match the symbol which is used in Arabic notation. The \dwn symbol defined in arabic.ly may be used preceding a flat symbol as a work around if it is important to use the specific Arabic semi-flat symbol. The appearance of the semi-flat symbol in the key signature cannot be altered by using this method.

So any thoughts on this?

eliot - 4-28-2009 at 05:23 PM

To get the microtonal key signature thing working, in the block of code right before you start putting notes, try something like this:

Quote:

\override Accidental #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\override Staff.KeySignature #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\set Staff.keySignature = #'( (3 . 4/9) (6 . -1/9) )

This will give you a key signature with a backwards-flat on B, and a sharp on the F above.

If you wanted to make that a slash-flat (Reda), change just one number:

Quote:

\override Accidental #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\override Staff.KeySignature #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\set Staff.keySignature = #'( (3 . 4/9) (6 . -4/9) )

The note
bb
should give you a b-slash-flat.

but, you need to make sure the first line in your document is:
\include "makamheader.ly"

adamgood - 4-28-2009 at 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eliot
but, you need to make sure the first line in your document is:
\include "makamheader.ly"

Eliot, where do you get "makamheader.ly" from? As far as I know these are the only makam init files in the current stable version 2.12.0:

makam-init.ly
makam.ly

and actually when open either of them up, looks like one is just a more recent version.

Let me know if there's another init file I'm not seeing!!

Great you guys are using Lilypond! I'm swamped with other things this week but soon if I get a chance I'd love to share some of the things I've found.

adam

adamgood - 4-29-2009 at 12:04 AM

by the way it looks like there is an init file called "arabic.ly" if you \include it try this:

dod dob dosd \dwn dob dobsb dodsd do

I don't have a chance now to check it out but probably it's cool for Arabic music.

also at the bottom are some key sig formats

Reda Aouad - 4-29-2009 at 01:41 AM

Thank you all for the suggestions

I've tried your solution Eliot.. including makam.ly (and not makamheader.ly) and setting the symbol for the slashed b.. but I don't want the Turkish comas being played back.. I write Arabic notations with only quarter notes.. so I ended up creating my own arabic_maqam.ly file with definitions for notes names (I like to use the DO RE MI notation), quarters tones (only 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4), their intervals, their accidentals symbols, and the different maqam groups for the key signature. This way everything is Arabic and the playback is perfect. Basically there are maqam groups in arabic.ly which I started to copy from, but there are two problems:

1. The accidentals ordering in the key signature is sometimes wrong.. for example include arabic.ly and try the key of bayati SOL with the following: \key sol \bayati.. the ordering of the accidentals in the key signature is weird..

2. Include arabic.ly and try the key signature \key mi \ rast.. Rast on MI.. it doesn't compile.. it says in the log file that no ordering of accidentals is defined.. what is going wrong?

Thanks for the help if anyone has answers to the above.. once solved - Im sure there are ways to solve them since I started to get a feeling how much this tool is versatile.. once solve I'll stick to it..

Edward Powell - 4-29-2009 at 05:10 AM

This is all really really great, and I can see that LILYPAD is going to solve all of my writing makam needs including pretty good playback.

At the moment I have managed to get the written notes thing going - as well as the playback - BUT I have not yet managed to be able to generate BOTH PDF FILE AND AUDIO FILE at the same time...

...any suggestions here??

Thanks!

Reda Aouad - 4-29-2009 at 05:13 AM

Well you should have both the \midi and \layout sections in your \score section.. this is what I understood by googling.. but still didn't figure out how..

Edward Powell - 4-29-2009 at 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eliot
To get the microtonal key signature thing working, in the block of code right before you start putting notes, try something like this:

Quote:

\override Accidental #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\override Staff.KeySignature #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\set Staff.keySignature = #'( (3 . 4/9) (6 . -1/9) )

This will give you a key signature with a backwards-flat on B, and a sharp on the F above.

If you wanted to make that a slash-flat (Reda), change just one number:

Quote:

\override Accidental #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\override Staff.KeySignature #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\set Staff.keySignature = #'( (3 . 4/9) (6 . -4/9) )

The note
bb
should give you a b-slash-flat.

but, you need to make sure the first line in your document is:
\include "makamheader.ly"

I am finding it really tough to figure out how to get the TURKISH NOTATION AND PLAYBACK working... I tried these suggestions from Eliot (thanks!) but it is not working at all. Won't even give me a PDF.

I prefer the Turkish way because it offers more fine tuning for the microtones... as in my composing sometimes I use Arab intonation, sometimes Turkish.

I figured out the Arabic thing easily because there is a section in the tutorial for ARABIC MUSIC.

But I could not find any such section for turkish music.

Edward Powell - 4-29-2009 at 07:50 AM

Why is there a section in the tutorial dedicated to Arabic music, and nothing dedicated to Turkish music? There must be something somewhere explaining how this is done... I will try to google it. . . . . . . .

Reda Aouad - 4-29-2009 at 08:17 AM

I wish I had the answers.. I focused only on Arabic notation.. and I got everything I want so far except for generating both MIDI and PDF.. worst case I may generate each separately..

AMAZING software!

Edward Powell - 4-29-2009 at 08:19 AM

ok... in the worst case I can also just use arab notation... anyway it is close enough :rolleyes:

Reda Aouad - 4-29-2009 at 08:22 AM

Ed.. let me help you.. are you using Windows?

tchandler - 4-29-2009 at 08:29 AM

Hey Eliot,
can Lilypond do the Arabic half flat with the bar through the stem? Or is it only the backwards flat?
thanks
tom

Reda Aouad - 4-29-2009 at 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tchandler
Hey Eliot,
can Lilypond do the Arabic half flat with the bar through the stem? Or is it only the backwards flat?
thanks
tom

Yes I've managed to do it.. but Eliot's method didn't work.. maybe he's using an older version..

Reda Aouad - 4-29-2009 at 08:38 AM

Ed.. if you're using Windows.. take a look at C:\Program Files\LilyPond\usr\share\lilypond\current\ly\makam.ly which you have to include.. tell me if you need more help..

Edward Powell - 4-29-2009 at 08:44 AM

Yes... Vista

Edward Powell - 4-29-2009 at 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reda Aouad
Ed.. if you're using Windows.. take a look at C:\Program Files\LilyPond\usr\share\lilypond\current\ly\makam.ly which you have to include.. tell me if you need more help..

the above link does not seems to work......??

Reda Aouad - 4-29-2009 at 08:53 AM

It's not a weblink.. open the file from your computer.. the file name is "makam.ly" and you can find it under the directory "C:\Program Files\LilyPond\usr\share\lilypond\current\ly" unless you changed the default installation path..

Or from Notepad.. File->Open and paste in the file name the following: C:\Program Files\LilyPond\usr\share\lilypond\current\ly\makam.ly

Edward Powell - 4-29-2009 at 08:56 AM

oh....cool!

I got it open in NOTEPAD :xtreme:

Reda Aouad - 4-29-2009 at 09:18 AM

Man this software has bugs.. I have my key set to \key d \bayati.. and everything is good.. until I add a measure and it gives me an error: warning: No ordering for key signature alterations. I remove the one measure I added and everything works well again :shrug:

Edward Powell - 4-29-2009 at 09:26 AM

hmmmmm..... my guess is that Adam and Eliot have got it figured out for Turkish. We gotta pick those guys brains. Find out what LILYPOND versions they are using and where they are getting the help files for Turkish comas.....

:bounce:

FastForward - 4-29-2009 at 01:58 PM

I got it done with a bit of modifications of the arabic.ly

here is the modified arabic.ly file

Quote:

\version "2.12.0"
\include "italiano.ly"

%%%%%%%
%
% Definition of "dwn" symbol in order to draw the half flat symbol
% that is more often used in Arabic music (A b with a slash across),
% rather than the reverse b symbol that is used by LilyPond.
% The method was contributed by Valentin Villenave on the LilyPond Forum
%
% http://www.mail-archive.com/lilypond-user@gnu.org/msg34244.html
%
% Exchange on 17 January 2008
%
% Updated based on email advice 10 July 2008, by Neil Puttock
%
%
% Example
%
% dod dob dosd \dwn dob dobsb dodsd do
%

dwn = {
\once \override Voice.Accidental #'stencil = #(lambda (grob)
(ly:stencil-combine-at-edge
(ly:accidental-interface::print grob) Y UP
(grob-interpret-markup grob (markup #:line
(#:fontsize -1 (#:musicglyph "flags.ugrace")))) -1.3 0))
}

makamGlyphs = #`((1 . "accidentals.doublesharp")
(3/4 . "accidentals.sharp.slashslashslash.stemstem")
(1/2 . "accidentals.sharp")
(1/4 . "accidentals.sharp.slashslash.stem")
(0 . "accidentals.natural")
(-1/4 . "accidentals.flat.slash")
(-1/2 . "accidentals.flat")
(-3/4 . "accidentals.flat.slashslash")
(-1 . "accidentals.flatflat"))

\layout {
\context {
\Score
\override KeySignature #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\override Accidental #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\override AccidentalCautionary #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\override TrillPitchAccidental #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\override AmbitusAccidental #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
}
}

% the arabic maqam groups

bayati = #`(
(0 . 0)
(1 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
(2 . ,FLAT)
(3 . 0)
(4 . 0)
(5 . ,FLAT)
(6 . ,FLAT)
)

kurd = #`(
(0 . 0)
(1 . ,FLAT)
(2 . ,FLAT)
(3 . 0)
(4 . 0)
(5 . ,FLAT)
(6 . ,FLAT)
)

rast = #`(
(0 . 0)
(1 . 0)
(2 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
(3 . 0)
(4 . 0)
(5 . 0)
(6 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
)

sikah = #`(
(0 . 0)
(1 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
(2 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
(3 . ,SEMI-SHARP)
(4 . 0)
(5 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
(6 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
)

iraq = #`(
(0 . 0)
(1 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
(2 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
(3 . 0)
(4 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
(5 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
(6 . ,SEMI-FLAT)
)

and here is a sample file

Quote:

\include "arabic_modified3.ly"

% \include "arabic.ly"
\score {
\relative re' {
\set Staff.extraNatural = ##f
\set Staff.autoBeaming = ##f
\key re \bayati
\time 10/8

re4 re'8 re16 [misb re do] sisb [la sisb do] re4 r8
re16 [misb do re] sisb [do] la [sisb sol8] la [sisb] do [re] misb
fa4 fa16 [misb] misb8. [re16] re8 [misb] re [do] sisb
do4 sisb8 misb16 [re do sisb] la [do sisb la] la4 r8
}
\header {
title = "Semai Muhayer"
composer = "Jamil Bek"
}
}

attached is the pdf output.

Edward Powell - 4-29-2009 at 02:00 PM

wow! what is all this???!

FastForward - 4-29-2009 at 02:00 PM

I forgot to mention that the modified arabic.ly file was saved as arabic_modified3.ly in the local folder containing the file I was editying "tmp.ly".

Reda Aouad - 4-29-2009 at 02:04 PM

Well i did the same.. but wrote it all again by myself.. for the notes to be DO RE MI.. and the accidental.flat.slash character.. and defining some extra maqams and stuff.. but same result..

Thanks anyway

adamgood - 4-29-2009 at 02:27 PM

Edward are you still having problems making midi file? I just tried it with the latest stable version and midis no problem.

Attached find a file i use to create many midi files in various Turkish transpositions (first one should be Bolahenk)

Put the file in the same directory as your .ly file and drop this line into the bottom of one of your files, should work:

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% MIDI output below %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
\include "makam-midi-create.ly"

eliot - 4-29-2009 at 03:02 PM

In the same directory as the scores I'm making, I have a file called makamheader.ly (attached, hopefully, below).

A sample showing a few tetrachords:

Quote:

\include "makamheader.ly"
\header{
}

#(set-default-paper-size "a4")
\score {
\relative {
\time 4/4
#(set-accidental-style 'voice)
\override Accidental #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\override Staff.KeySignature #'glyph-name-alist = \makamGlyphs
\override Staff.TimeSignature #'break-visibility = ##(#f #f #f)
r1\break
a'1\break
\time 7/4
a1 bfc4 c4 d4 \break
\time 8/4
a1 bfc4 c d e \break
\time 5/4
e2 fb4 g4 a4 \break
a4 g f! e2 \break
}
\layout {
ragged-right = ##t
ragged-last = ##t
\context {
\Staff \consists "Horizontal_bracket_engraver"
}
\context {
\Score
\remove "Bar_number_engraver"
\remove "Time_signature_engraver"
\override SpacingSpanner #'shortest-duration-space = #8
\override SpacingSpanner #'spacing-increment = #1
}
}
}
\paper {
page-top-space = 0\mm
aftertitlespace = 0\mm
betweensystemspace = 10\mm
betweensystempadding = #1
raggedbottom=##f
raggedlastbottom=##f
line-width = 80\mm
}

\version "2.11.12"

There's all kinds of fun stuff in there; do google searches, or searches in the lilypond manual, for some of the commands, such as removing the time signature engraver, etc.

I won't have much time free in the next month to help out over here, have some final exams to give, several dissertations to read, and a few book chapters to write. Hopefully the above message will help you on the lilypond track.

(last note: if you wanted to change all the flats to slash-flats, you'd change all the bfc notes to bfb , and change the key signature liek I showed in the previous post)

Edward Powell - 4-30-2009 at 12:31 AM

This is all amazing help - THANKS!

I think my basic trouble now is that I am not completely and fully understanding how a "text-interface" program works, as this is the first time I have ever attempted to work with one. Of course, I know HTML very well, and have used it for years. I guess this is something a bit like HTML where we are writing a code which the browser (lilypond) will interpret and give use PDFs etc.

But you guys are talking about creating your own MAKAM files etc... wow, this sounds advanced. But I'm sure when I really dig in it will be clear. I guess you are figuring out how to assign specific comas modifications to specific accidentals... this is exactly what I want actually because I compose with lots of coma placements, and I would like to customise my own writing system - and have an accurate midi playback to match this...

Thanks again, and I will let you know how I progress once I dig in a bit.

...now back to a bit more composing (this is the easy and relaxing part of my life now!

))

joseph - 5-2-2009 at 09:18 PM

HI Edward and Everyone,

A while back I worked with LilyPond on adding some documentation on how to write Arabic music with LilyPond in their manual, and put a post on this forum about it, I also added some definitions of some Arabic scale. I don't know if you have these available in the latest version of LilyPond but I'd be interested to know. In any case, I hope some of the documentation below would still be useful to you. Let us know if you have any problems, but I'm also not an expert just a user of LilyPond. If the documentation does not help, I can also post a couple of examples that I'm working on now, but have a read of this first, and let us know what you need. The LilyPond Forum is also very helpful if you hit technical problems, and I'm sure they'd like to know that people are using the Arabic music support that was added.

Here's the link to the other post which contains the documentation in the PDF (As I said, that should also be in the latest LilyPond manuals).
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7447#pid466...

Regards
Joseph

Reda Aouad - 5-2-2009 at 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by joseph
HI Edward and Everyone,

A while back I worked with LilyPond on adding some documentation on how to write Arabic music with LilyPond in their manual, and put a post on this forum about it, I also added some definitions of some Arabic scale. I don't know if you have these available in the latest version of LilyPond but I'd be interested to know. In any case, I hope some of the documentation below would still be useful to you. Let us know if you have any problems, but I'm also not an expert just a user of LilyPond. If the documentation does not help, I can also post a couple of examples that I'm working on now, but have a read of this first, and let us know what you need. The LilyPond Forum is also very helpful if you hit technical problems, and I'm sure they'd like to know that people are using the Arabic music support that was added.

Here's the link to the other post which contains the documentation in the PDF (As I said, that should also be in the latest LilyPond manuals).
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7447#pid466...

Regards
Joseph

Thank you Joseph

I read your documentation somewhere (maybe in the manual) and it was very helpful

The only problem was that of the Arabic half-flat sign (slashed bemol) used in Arabic notation, which I solved by combining codes from makam.ly and arabic.ly..

Thanks

Edward Powell - 5-3-2009 at 12:41 AM

Hi Joseph

Thanks so much --- I still need to find the time to reallky dig in and try to get a littl bit further with it....! ...but what comes to mind right now is that I did not encounter any difficulty so far with Arabic music (dealing simply with 1/4 tones), but my problems came with TURKISH music which uses a 9 coma division per whole tone - - - THIS is what I'm having troubles will...

T H A N K S

joseph - 5-6-2009 at 05:17 AM

Hi Edward,

Ah, that's really interesting. I didn't read the all the exchanges.

I didn't think Turkish musical notation was supported, but I knew it was considered, and now when I check their site again, it said it is under development, so that's quite exciting, and I guess that's what your working on.

I guess you know that you can get help from the LilyPond forum, and I'm sure they'll be quite happy to hear from you, especially if you are testing their new feature. You might even want to volunteer to help improve the documentation, if you're having trouble with it. Volunteering to help with the documentation was quite a rewarding experience for me, but it was quite time consuming, so I could only do it for a limited time!

Best of luck
Joseph

Edward Powell - 5-6-2009 at 06:56 AM

Thanks again Joseph!

I didn't know there is a LP forum! That's amazing...
Write

at the moment, I am sidetracked with a bunch of recording - since I figured I had better finish my current CD before notating composition for A NEXT CD!

) ...but when I get back to the notating I will do as you suggest and get in touch with LP... that's a really good idea - also to try to help them perhaps with the tutorials.

I guess LP is a bit like a notation co-op on-line?

adamgood - 5-6-2009 at 09:27 AM

Edward and Joseph,

There's a lilypond email list, actually not a forum (or is there one I don't know about?). The list is good, has some very very knowledgeable, uber intelligent and helpful people.

You can however search the archives of that list at the LP site under "documentation". Often I find all of my answers or hints there.

adam

mavrothis - 5-6-2009 at 12:14 PM

I went through the same questions, and had them answered well on the finale forum:

http://www.finaleforum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4353&highlight=ottoman

Now, I can write in Ottoman notation with no problems.

Sorry if this was already answered here, I didn't read the whole discussion.

Unfortunately, Finale Tech Support does not really help you with these kinds of problems - they expect their own customers to solve Finale issues through forums.

Take care,

mavrothis

Edward Powell - 5-6-2009 at 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mavrothis
I went through the same questions, and had them answered well on the finale forum:

http://www.finaleforum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4353&highlight=ottoman

Now, I can write in Ottoman notation with no problems.

Sorry if this was already answered here, I didn't read the whole discussion.

Unfortunately, Finale Tech Support does not really help you with these kinds of problems - they expect their own customers to solve Finale issues through forums.

Take care,

mavrothis

So you are writing OTTOMAN music with FINALE! this is the first I have ever heard of THIS! ...how did you manage the fonts... AND WHAT ABOUT THE COMAS DURING PLAYBACK???

mavrothis - 5-6-2009 at 02:44 PM

Not with playback - what I'm doing is creating CLEFS, not KEY SIGNATURES, as far as Finale recognizes - but what shows on the paper is a clef with Ottoman key signature. Playback is what I do with my oud...

though I realize it would be great if it played it back right. I think Sibelius does that though: http://www.alsiadi.com/musicscores.htm

I also can use the Turkish fonts for accidentals too. I'm attaching the font files for you now.

You can also create libraries for makams which you can load easily whenever you start composing/transcribing. I've found that I usually have to redo the accidentals increments each time so that I can use the "+" and "-" key to adjust each note's accidental, through the list of Ottoman accidentals.

Try the instructions in the forum link, using the fonts I'm attaching, and let me know if you have any questions.

Take care,

mavrothis

adamgood - 5-12-2009 at 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FastForward

and here is a sample file

Quote:

Hi I just had a chance to try this out and still I get the error about the key signature:

" warning: No ordering for key signature alterations

\key re \bayati "

I get output but the key signature doesn't appear to be correct to me. Also not for \rast, etc...I created your custom init file.

Just wanting to see how it's being employed in for Arabic music so I can try to apply it to my Turkish notation. As it is now I simply make all of the key sigs for Turkish makam in an extra init file and call it up via:

\rast

and it's totally fine. Just part of my would enjoy seeing

\key \rast

but I've never understood where a definition for "\key" is located.

By the way, Han-Wen who is the developer that worked with us on the Turkish notation suggested to simply do it like my example above. But now I see you guys have worked \key into it. any thoughts?

adam

FastForward - 5-12-2009 at 10:16 AM

Adam,

Do you have both files saved in the same folder, i.e., the sample file and the arabic_modified3.ly

Can you post what you are trying to do and I can compile it on my machine to see if it is giving the same error.

Reda Aouad - 5-12-2009 at 10:19 AM

I get sometimes the error: "warning: No ordering for key signature alterations" when I use the "\key note \maqam" command, but it seems like a bug.. because sometimes I get it and sometimes it works just fine.. I suggest you close everything.. delete all files except the .ly source file, and then recompile.. sometimes it works for me without changing anything in the code.. I wonder why :shrug:

Edward Powell - 5-12-2009 at 12:04 PM

Man, you guys are really rolling with this! Leaving me FAR behind! ...but soon enough I will try to catch up.

I have spent the last ten days composing and recording bass lines for my RAGMAKAM CD, which I recorded mostly in istanbul last year. It feels good to get that CD almost finished --- now all there is left to do is record tabla which I will do this summer in vancouver.

Then back to composing new stuff for the new RAGMAKAMTAR... then back to lilypond, finally. I hope MIKE will not delete this thread

adamgood - 5-12-2009 at 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reda Aouad
I get sometimes the error: "warning: No ordering for key signature alterations" when I use the "\key note \maqam" command, but it seems like a bug.. because sometimes I get it and sometimes it works just fine.. I suggest you close everything.. delete all files except the .ly source file, and then recompile.. sometimes it works for me without changing anything in the code.. I wonder why :shrug:

Yes this is what I get as well "warning" but I think I start to get what is going on now having tried to do this for Turkish key sigs (I'm almost there!!). Here's the idea:

I think we simply need to override the ordering of the symbols so it doesn't complain. It seems to be working otherwise right? I get the key sigs ok looking but we don't have to live with the complaint. There must be a pretty simple override, I'll poke around when I have more time.

Edward Powell - 12-28-2009 at 06:23 AM

...now i am starting to get back into lilypond finally - - -

wow, it seems like a big work ahead :mad:

Edward Powell - 12-30-2009 at 10:28 AM

Does anyone know of a notation program which is very very simple, free, and reliable???

I want to learn LILYPOND, this seems great for my needs EXCEPT for one major factor... "transposition"!

you, see, now being back in Europe, I can not simply write my music out in Turkish tuning (where RAST is written as G), and then expect European musicians to be able to read and transpose this. Also I will be writing music for Arab musicians and this will require again another transposition.

It seems that with LILYPOND, to transpose a whole piece would simply mean having to write the whole thing all over again.

What I like a FINALE is that transposing a whole piece up one or two whole-tones for example is easily possible with a couple of clicks.

But my crack version of FINALE is not working anymore, and I don't want to invest a lot of money into buying this software - especially since I really don't need something so powerful... I am only writing single note lines and I can put in the quartertones by hand... i also do not really need a playback option...

I am wondering if anyone knows of some very small and simple notation program that is free - and is capable of notating simple single note melodies, and transposing complete pieces?

OR, is there some simple way of transposing complete pieces with LILYPOND?

I will need all of my compositions written in Turkish notation, Arab notation, and European notation! ---and I really would prefer only to have to write the main score out just once.

THANKS!

Edward Powell - 12-30-2009 at 02:09 PM

...just re-read this whole thread --- there is a wealth of info here!!

chaldo - 10-27-2010 at 09:47 AM

Hi, anyone's got updates on what to use that can generate midi file and sheets that include quarter-tone?

any updates what are the best softwares out there?

Edward Powell - 10-27-2010 at 10:08 AM

LILYPOND!

chaldo - 10-27-2010 at 10:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

LILYPOND!

I know, and it's pretty amazing, I have it... but its not easy as it was mentioned before... I mean not so user friendly.

but these guys worked and produced something that supports arabic and turkish music, outstanding.

anyways, have you got the way to produce the midi and the pdf?

thanks Mr. Powell

Edward Powell - 10-27-2010 at 10:43 AM

Luckily, I was able to get into LILYPOND with the help of an expert friend. He has templates that he gave to me which made the whole process quite easy. Then he tutored me thru the rest...... so it was managable. I don't know how tough it would be to swing it without help.

Multi Kulti - 10-27-2010 at 10:55 AM

Hello to all !
Some weeks ago i accidentally found that http://www.mus2.com.tr/en/ ... its a new software for turkish notation.
I didnt try it yet but i wanted to share it !

Nikos

chaldo - 10-28-2010 at 07:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Multi Kulti

Hello to all !
Some weeks ago i accidentally found that http://www.mus2.com.tr/en/ ... its a new software for turkish notation.
I didnt try it yet but i wanted to share it !

Nikos

Hi Nikos, I don't know how you found this but this is fantastic! I mean It plays quartertones, I mean you can easily use all the maqams (turkish) and add new maqams to the Turkish ones... I mean for 40 bucks totally worth it!

Mr. Powell, you should try this too (demo is available, but there are some features not working..)

adamgood - 11-2-2010 at 11:45 PM

RE: Lilypond...

Here's a notation I made for Tanburi Cemil Bey's Sedaraban Saz Semaisi using Lilypond. I use the supported makam init file plus I have a config file that has quite a bit of custom tweaks. I LOVE it!

Adam

Sedaraban_saz_semaisi-cemil_beyCB-page1.png - 92kB

Sedaraban_saz_semaisi-cemil_beyCB-page2.png - 43kB

Edward Powell - 11-3-2010 at 08:24 AM

YEAH! me too! ...thanks to Adam I am now rollin' with lilypond and am able to transpose and everything!

adamgood - 11-5-2010 at 12:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

YEAH! me too! ...thanks to Adam I am now rollin' with lilypond and am able to transpose and everything!

Edward what is your success rate with transposing makam music with Lilypond? Basically it's not supported...I did my best to look in to it and though some things work, mileage varies. I think the problem lies with the transposing engine itself. It's geared only toward 12-note to an octave so anything else and it gets confused.

Hmm maybe I could ask the developer what it would cost to get it fully functioning?? That would require hiring him for the work and if you or any one else are interested in contributing then we could get it happening!

I'd be really happy to be able to transpose from Turkish notation to Arabic with a simple switch.

What you think? Meanwhile keep on rockin' with it.

adam

Edward Powell - 11-5-2010 at 08:19 AM

The transpostion method you gave me works quite well but it is not perfect.
Sure it would be super to have a fool-proof way to do it perfectly.... yeah, why not ask how much it would cost, then we could post it here and see how many people would be willing to pitch in to pay for that. I for one would be good for a certain amount surely!

Khalid_Salé - 11-5-2010 at 09:35 AM

For those who, like me, are scared of Lillypond, MuseScore is a bit friendlier, and includes microtones. (It will play them back, too, if you fiddle with it a little bit)

http://musescore.org/en

chaldo - 11-5-2010 at 10:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Khalid_Salé

For those who, like me, are scared of Lillypond, MuseScore is a bit friendlier, and includes microtones. (It will play them back, too, if you fiddle with it a little bit)

[url]http://musescore.org/en

[/url]

Khaled, I just tried MuseScore and its very good, the tweak I guess is to change tuning of the half flat.. that's it

I don't understand what are the advantages of Lillypond over an easy-to-use software such as MuseScore or other ones that are able to play microtones..?

chaldo

Edward Powell - 11-5-2010 at 02:14 PM

Lilypond is also very easy to use once you get the hang of it.... it is also FREE.

Khalid_Salé - 11-5-2010 at 03:22 PM

MuseScore's free, too! It exports to Lilypond as well, so it might be worth having both and playing around with them.

Edward Powell - 11-5-2010 at 03:27 PM

Can you transpose with MuseScore?

Khalid_Salé - 11-5-2010 at 03:29 PM

You can, at the click of a button, but I don't know how well it deals with microtones. I just downloaded it today

Edward Powell - 11-5-2010 at 03:33 PM

where did you download from?

Khalid_Salé - 11-5-2010 at 03:44 PM

http://musescore.org/en/download

It's not a torrent with a crack or anything, it's a free program. I definitely recommend having a look. It's so easy it reminds me of the McDonalds cash register where they press the button with the picture of a big mac on it - harder to get it wrong than get it right. Just right for my level...

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