Danielo - 6-8-2009 at 03:43 AM
Hi,
you probably all saw these 100 years-old or so guitar lutes
that pop up often on ebay, for reasonable prices. as
this one.
Changing the bracing, bridge and neck is it possible to turn them into ouds, keeping the old soundboard and bowl that should give a very nice sound
?
the dimension of the soundboard of this particular example is really oud-like, however the bowl is a little bit shallow (12cm) but other ones can have
a deeper one...
sure it is a shame to butcher instruments with an historical value but these kind of lutes seem pretty common
Dan
msimon - 6-8-2009 at 06:43 AM
If you have not seen this thread, you can check it. Send Alexander a U2U, and see if he knows.
Hope this helps,
MS
lute conversion
eastmountain - 6-9-2009 at 03:26 PM
I thought about converting my oud to a guitar-lute to play at Renaissance Fairs and such, but decided I would likely end up taking a decent oud and
making it a bad lute. I think doing the conversion from lute to oud would give you the same result. Unless you were rescuing a broken lute, I think
you'd be better off leaving them alone. If you want an oud, get an oud, and vice versa.
jdowning - 6-9-2009 at 04:29 PM
These 'guitar-lutes' were invented in the mid 19th C - part of a romantic folk revival movement in Germany. They were still being made and sold - to
my certain knowledge - during the early 1960's. They are neither lutes nor guitars.
Unfortunately, many valuable and historic lutes of the 16th and 17th C were mindlessly butchered and crudely converted into this type of instrument
during the late 19th C. The only saving grace is that these acts of vandalism - perhaps - may have preserved the lute bowls, at least, for posterity.
Historically, the world would have been a better place if these lutes had been left alone in their original condition.
I agree with eastmountain. Leave well alone.
patheslip - 6-10-2009 at 09:25 AM
I changed my perfectly respectable oud into a plectrum lute for playing at medieval banquets and the like. I tied fishing line frets at appropriate
intervals. Job Done.
Unlike your project, it can be changed back at the flick of a razor blade. Leave the poor old guitar lute alone and buy an oud. They're not very
expensive and work better than any pale imitations. I'd recommend a quick trip to Morocco. You get a good holiday, meet some marvellous people,
brush up your bartering skills and get a proper instrument with a bit of luck. You might get an upset stomach too, for free.
Danielo - 6-10-2009 at 10:30 AM
Hi,
that's enough I promise I will never hold a chisel over a lute
The key point is that, even though these guitar lutes are of no pratical/histrorical value today who knows in the future? (as the sad story of 16c
lutes that John mentionned 
)
PS: I have already a nice oud the point was not to get something cheaper but with nice old wood
PPS: I agree about Marocco I went there already four times! (sadly the only bad thing I brought back was my first oud - at that time I knew nothing
about them)
patheslip - 6-11-2009 at 09:43 AM
Just teasing, Danielo. I'm as guilty as anybody. Just now I'm gazing at a small wooded drum wondering if I can turn it into a two string fiddle with
a little cutting and drilling. I've got some well seasoned ash for the neck.
mea culpa
jdowning - 6-19-2009 at 05:21 AM
In retrospect, we perhaps should not judge too harshly those who converted rare old lutes into 'guitar-lutes' during the
19th C.
For information, here is a 'good' example of one of those converted instruments that I had the opportunity to examine in detail in 1981 (The Charles
van Raalte collection, Dean Castle, Kilmarnock, Scotland). All that now remains of the original six course lute is the ivory bowl - made by renowned
luthier Wendelin Tieffenbrucker (alias Venere) in 1571. It was common practice during the 17th and 18th C for prized lutes to be converted in order to
keep up with developments in lute design - additions of more strings requiring wider necks and longer bridges etc. This instrument is no exception as
it carries four makers labels - that of Tieffenbrucker, another by Johannes Rossman, Breslau, 1686, a label with illegible signature and no date and
finally a label by the famous 'Baroque' luthier Christian Gottlieb Hoffmann, Leipzig, 1726. The sound board is likely that fitted to the instrument
when it left Hoffman's hands, as traces of a longer lute bridge (about 220 mm overall length) can be seen below the guitar bridge. Also what once was
the wide neck joint has been crudely filled in with a block of wood to accommodate the narrower guitar neck. So the lute was likely in the form of a
13 or14 course baroque lute before being modified to its present state during the 19th C. Hard to imagine what the lute might have been worth today -
both historically and in monetary value - if it had not been converted to its present state.
On the subject of lute conversions here also, for information, is an article that I wrote in April 1978 for FoMRHI "The Maler and Frei Lutes. Some
Observations".
I meant to post this article some time ago but forgot to do so. The article is referenced in the bibliography of "Historical Lute Construction" by
Robert Lundberg - as well as on the websites of some luthiers - so may be of some interest to those who have a copy of Lundberg's book.
So Danielo perhaps you might want to sharpen up that chisel after all!
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Momme - 6-20-2009 at 10:45 AM
hi to all
Danielo - 6-21-2009 at 05:59 AM
Hi John,
thanks again for sharing your knowledge
This is a very interesting story, How many 17th lutes managed to pass through the 18th and 19th century and are still in an almost orginal condition
today?
Dan
jdowning - 6-21-2009 at 04:19 PM
I don't have exact statistics but, safe to say, some lutes from the 17th C but very few from the 16th C and nothing prior to the the 16th C. to my
knowledge.
To add to the problem there were the Italian 19th C fakers - serving the naive collector's market of the time - taking an original piece from here and
there and combining them to make an unauthentic whole. Caveat emptor!
jdowning - 6-24-2009 at 03:52 PM
The forger of early instruments that I am referring to is the notorious Leopoldo Francolini - operating out of Florence between 1890 to 1910.