nayoud - 6-10-2009 at 02:53 PM
Hi All
I intend to buy some Sitka spruce tops and probably rosewood guitar sides for an oud I intend to build back home. I have a few questions if someone
can kindly help me with:
1- What size should I get, classical guitar tops or dred's.
2-I will be transporting the woods in a marine freight container , and was wondering if there were any precautions other than the usual airtight
packing to fend off excessive humidity and heat ?
Thanks
Hisham
Peyman - 6-11-2009 at 07:49 AM
You need to figure out the size of your oud. They always give you the typical size of soundboard. LMII has it written on their tops page for example.
See which one fits your oud project.
Hatem_Afandi - 6-11-2009 at 01:26 PM
Ahlan Hisham,
Check out this site:
http://www.alliedlutherie.com/index.html
They have the best quality wood. Todd Taggart (the owner) is a very nice fellow.
His email address is:
todd@alliedlutherie.com
I also have more boring details regarding the dimensions if you are interested.
The most critical part is to get a SINGLE PIECE for the sound board. That will also raise the value of the instrument.
Good Luck,
Hatem
nayoud - 6-11-2009 at 03:14 PM
Thanks Peyman
I was thinking of a full size Arabic oud with a EIR rosewood back (any Dalbergia species really) .
Hatem,
you really hit the point here, I want either a one piece or two piece top. Last Summer I met Fathi Amin in Cairo, he showed me some of his 5-8K ouds.
I was surpised to see they had 6-8 piece tops (yes not all oud tops were symmetrical). The wood was below terrible, it was probably some kind of
"spruce" with wide crooked grain, some tops even had swirls and what apparently looked like knots !
He STRONGLY advised me to get the tonewoods from the US, and I plan to oblige. I would be grateful if you could send me the measurements of a normal
Arabic oud (I also have Dr. Ouds's book).
Shokran
Hisham
Hatem_Afandi - 6-15-2009 at 04:53 AM
Dear Hisham,
Sorry, I was away for a few days and didn't check any correspondence.
Yessir! I will provide all the information as soon as I get a chance today.
I do have an oud by Fathi Amin, which is great. However, I believe that his son, Sayyed, is a very capable luthier. I have an excellent quality
seven-course oud built by Sayyed.
Stay tuned,
Hatem
Hatem_Afandi - 6-15-2009 at 08:55 AM
Hi Hisham,
Below are the dimensions for an "Egyptian Frame" oud as per our discussion. It would take 4 sets of Dreadnaught sides per oud if you are ordering from
Allied Luthiers.
The most prefered wood type for the luthiers in Egypt (Amin & Son, and Wazeeree) is INDIAN ROSEWOOD.
Ribs:
Length per rib = 28.740 157 48 inch
Width per rib = 1.338 582 677 2 inch
Thickness = 0.118 110 236 22 inch
Number of ribs = 21
2 additional ribs Length = 28.740 157 48 inch
Thickness = 1.574 803 149 6 inch
Chest Length = 15.748 031 496 inch
Chest Width = 3.149 606 299 2 inch
Note” A chest” is the fingerboard piece from the pegbox to the main soundhole.
Bridge Length = 6.692 913 385 8 inch
Bridge thickness = 0.590 551 181 1 inch
Bridge width = 1.181 102 362 2 inch
I do suggest that you try to get the best avilable spruce for the soundboard. The rest is not as critical.
Good luck,
Hatem
P.S. I forgot to mention that Maurice prefers ebony for the bowl. Maybe you should check with him as well before committing to a certain type of
wood.
nayoud - 6-15-2009 at 05:58 PM
Thanks a million Hatem its much appreciated
I prefer spruce to cedar for durability (cedar is too soft for my use) and rosewood to ebony for tone. I feel that ebony back and sides / bowl would
be better suited for higher string tensions, or steel stringed instruments to get that natural reverb/ bell like sound that's usually associated with
EIR and other Dalbergia sub-species.
I usually play alone, so I usually don't need my oud to cut through the mix or anything. I would have gone with mahogany or walnut in that case.
I agree with you totally that the topwood and its quality results in 80% of the quality of sound, the back woods only color the end result.
Do you know how long would it take for an adirondack top to break-in in an oud ? I guess it would take ages and would not be best suited for nylon
stringed instruments. I guess its safer to go with sitka or englemann spruce.
Thanks for the info will post the result of my endeavor in a couple of months.
Salam
Hisham
Hatem_Afandi - 6-16-2009 at 06:00 AM
You are quite welcome Ya Ostaz Hisham,
I am sure that all of us would be interested in the outcome of your project.
I am not an expert, but let me share the following story with you:
A couple of years ago, I bought a WELL-MADE Iraqi oud during a business trip to Dubai. I put it aside for almost a year without touching it. When I
picked it up, the ouput was significantly dampened to a point that got me rather concerned.
A friend told me to play as "an Egyptian Upholster" (Menagged!!!) to fix that problem.
Believe it or not, that did the trick.!!!!!
It took a little over 2 days to recover.
I sent you a U2U message.
Salamaat,
Hatem
nayoud - 6-17-2009 at 12:20 PM
Thanks a million Hatem Bey .. I sent you an email ..
Was the sound muffled due to the gluing coming off at the edges, excessive humidity in the sound board (a major culprit), or just because it wasn't
used? I noticed that the sound of my guitars get seriously dampened (excuse the pun) when the humidity rises...
Cheers
Hisham
nayoud - 6-17-2009 at 12:24 PM
OOOPs i'm sorry i didn't read the post carefully, (where are my glasses :cool
)...
so you played "like a menaged" .. a good option is to put the soundboard facing a large speaker .. it works wonders .. IMHO and I'm no expert, the
idea is to make the sounboard vibrate as much as possible ... but i stand to be corrected.
Best
Hisham
Hatem_Afandi - 6-18-2009 at 05:32 AM
You are quite welcome ya Hisham PASHA !
The main reason behind the dampened output was lack of use. As I mentioned in my previous posts, the instrument is a real well-built one. The label
inside revealed that it is a 10 year old oud.
I will definitely try the loud speaker idea using my son's electric guitar. It does make sense.
Have you thought of a nice quality case for it? The best soft case is available from Jameel. The best hard case is available from Maurice.
I hope that you will end up with an instrument that you love and enjoy.
Good Luk ya Hisham,
Hatem
nayoud - 6-23-2009 at 06:44 PM
Nice article on stringed instruments "opening up"
http://www.acousticguitar.com/gear/advice/vibration.shtml
jdowning - 6-24-2009 at 12:38 PM
What glues are these guys using? They don't say so are likely the relatively soft, yielding (under applied stress), modern synthetic glues (P.V.A. and
the like) rather than the traditional, hard, non-yielding, hide glues?
It could make a world of difference acoustically.
Also - obviously - an acoustic guitar is a world apart from an acoustic oud - made in the traditional way, a tradition that some oud makers
(thankfully) continue to this day.
Hatem_Afandi - 6-24-2009 at 01:52 PM
Dear Hisham,
Thanks for sharing the article. However, I wouldn’t describe it as “nice”. As a matter of fact, I completely disagree with it, PERIOD!!!!!
I spent 15 years of my career designing and testing guiding systems. Part of our testing process is what we call (HALT & HASS) where the "shaker
table" mentioned in this article is utilized inside an environmental chamber.
It is very unlikely that one of us would have access to such a contraption. However, I have to point out: THIS DANGEROUS AND WRONG!
Hatem_Afandi - 6-24-2009 at 01:57 PM
Hi Jdowing,
You raise an excellent point. The glue is critical to the process. However, my approach has been always to ask the luthier about the raw material he
prefers to work with.
In Egypt, most maker prefer rosewood to build ouds. It is not because it is the best. They prefer it because it is easier for them to control.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Hisham,
If you like, I can bring some glue with me when I fly to Cairo. Please let me know.
Thanks,
Hatem
fernandraynaud - 7-29-2009 at 04:44 AM
Regarding the glue, in the harpsichord world, where a lot of instruments in circulation were made 40 years ago, what we observed is that aliphatic
resin glues ("yellow glue" like Titebond), that were very popular then, have two problems. First, the instruments are impossible to repair because the
glue does not yield cleanly to heat for unbonding, and cannot be simply re-glued, as this glue does not adhere to itself. The removal of old "yellow
glue" is a horrible task. Secondly, the glue creeps under tension. A number of harpsichords have practically imploded as the slow creep is sometimes
followed by a sudden release. And you can't reglue, QED. The old style hide glue is the only thing that is used on good harpsichords now. The liquid
hide glue, that has urea added, is probably OK, as the urea trick has been used for some time.
Hide glue is great. It's acoustically very conductive, it's pretty like amber, a heat gun can be used to undo a bond, and after repair, hide glue can
be re-applied, and old glue sets and sticks to itself and to wood.
If you would like to appreciate failing "modern glue" joints and an "imploding" harpsichord, take a look and read here, down the page you can see that
the wrestplank (where the tuning pins are inserted) is no longer parallel to the keyboard:
http://www.claviersbaroques.com/LPAlbardaFlemishSingle.htm
This instrument might be worth buying for parts, like that big fine spruce soundboard is worth real money and would make a lot of ouds
Here you can see there are no right angles left in the case:
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